[blackthorn762]

This has, no doubt, been asked before and will be asked over and over again...at least until we, the ordinary, law-abiding, legally obtained and responsible gun-owning citizens of the world get a satisfactory answer.

Would someone, ANYONE, show me verified statisitics that compare gun-related crimes commited by the citizens described above with gun-related crimes commited by individuals who obtained thier guns illegally and/or irresponsible gun owners (ie: the parents of the Columbine shooters).

I would be willing to bet everything I own and go into eternal servitude if ANYONE can show, in any way, that responsible, legal gun ownership is the cause of any criminal activity what-so-ever!

[TexasRifleman]

Well the problem is that the anti's can find many statistics showing that criminals use STOLEN guns in crimes.

Therefore, using their fuzzy logic, if law abiding citizens had no guns to steal there would be no crime.

The other problem is that these so called irresponsible gun owners you mention are, until the moment something bad happens, law abiding gun owners.

Again using the anti's fuzzy logic, no one should have guns because they might, at some later date, go nuts or become irresponsible. So again, there would be no crime if no one could have a gun.

[Nate C.]

I'm not sure who to attribute this to, but somebody more clever than me once said: "There's white lies; there's damn lies; and there's statistics."


(Was that Will Rogers?)

[blackthorn762]

OK...present a logical argument, based on HARD FACTS AND FIGURES, that makes the comparison in the original post...statistics be damned!

[jakemccoy]

I would be willing to bet everything I own and go into eternal servitude if ANYONE can show, in any way, that responsible, legal gun ownership is the cause of any criminal activity what-so-ever!


I get you're point, but don't make that bet. Again, I get your point.

[orionengnr]

Google "Gunfacts" for starters.

Then go check the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) website for records on crimes committe by Texas CHL holders. The results will be gratifying, but hardly surprising.

I believe Florida maintains these stats as well.

[Solo Flyer]

I'm not sure who to attribute this to, but somebody more clever than me once said: "There's white lies; there's damn lies; and there's statistics."
(Was that Will Rogers?)

Originally attributed to British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli and popularized by America's great author and humorist Mark Twain(nee Samuel Clemens).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

[Nate C.]

Thanks for letting me know. Is there anything in the entire universe that does not have a Wiki page?

[Solo Flyer]

Thanks for letting me know. Is there anything in the entire universe that does not have a Wiki page?

Not to my knowledge.:)

[ants]

You worded your original question so specifically that you won't find scholarly literature addressing it directly and specifically. But this one is fairly close: "Armed: New Perspectives on Gun Control" by Gary Kleck and Don B Kates, published in 2001 by Promethius Books.



Is there anything in the entire universe that does not have a Wiki page? I don't know, but you can probably look it up on Wikipedia.

[Aguila Blanca]

I would be willing to bet everything I own and go into eternal servitude if ANYONE can show, in any way, that responsible, legal gun ownership is the cause of any criminal activity what-so-ever!
You'd lose.

What you're betting is that no legal gun owner has EVER gone off the deep end and killed someone. Charles Whitman, the "Texas Tower" sniper, owned his guns legally. More recently, the Cho kid at Virginia Tech bought his guns legally. True, the fact that they legally owned their guns did not "cause" their murderous actions, but that's dabbling in semantics. When dealing with hard-core antis, you don't want to go there. The raw fact is, some assaults, murders, and other crimes HAVE been committed by people who legally owned the guns at the time of the crimes. Yes, I'm sure the numbers are small in comparison to the number of crimes committed with illegal guns, but don't bet the ranch there have never been any

[RPCVYemen]

The raw fact is, some assaults, murders, and other crimes HAVE been committed by people who legally owned the guns at the time of the crimes.

There are certainly cases of spousal murder involving legally owned weapons, as well as suicide.

Your ability to win the bet may hinge on your definition of "cause".

If the question is whether legally owned weapons have ever been used in the commission of a crime, the answer is "yes". If the question is whether legally owned weapons have ever facilitated the commission of a crime, the answer is "yes".

Insofar as inanimate objects may be said to be unable to directly "cause" anything, and abstract relationships (i.e. "ownership") may also be said to be unable to directly "cause" anything, the answer would be "no".

Mike

[ProficientRifleman]

Don't try to confuse ME with a bunch of facts.... I know how I feel!

[General Geoff]

A lot of guns that are "stolen" and used by crooks are actually straw-purchased guns that their girlfriends report stolen after buying them and giving them to their n'er-do-well boyfriends. This is one of the reasons why firearms retrieved that have been used in crimes are rarely returned to their owner; the police know that there's a high chance that the perp (or another criminal) will just end up getting it back again from the "legal" owner.

[blackthorn762]

A lot of guns that are "stolen" and used by crooks are actually straw-purchased guns that their girlfriends report stolen after buying them and giving them to their n'er-do-well boyfriends.

...and even THIS scenario does not justify removing the ablility of law-abiding citizens to purchase firearms with which to defend themselves when confronted by these very same n'er-do-well individuals.

[BlackBearME]

...Therefore, using their fuzzy logic, if law abiding citizens had no guns to steal there would be no crime.

... So again, there would be no crime if no one could have a gun.

What disturbs me is there are many people out there who believe this.

I'm genuinely curious as to how they believe wars were waged prior to the invention of the modern firearm, or if they honestly believe that no crimes were ever committed.