[fmjcafe]

http://eimg.net/harvest_inc/NEWS/img/XSG10408240439.jpg
A U.S. Army soldier holds a Kalashnikov rifle, in Baqouba, Iraq, Tuesday, Aug. 19, 2003. Many U.S. soldiers are carrying Kalashnikovs they have confiscated from Iraqis. ( AP Photo/Sergei Grits)

[winstonsmith]

Everybody and their mother has an AK over there. Ammo must be pretty easy to find. Plus, in a shoot out where the parties can't see each other, having the same weapon as the bad guys could cause them to cease firing, or at least get a little confused.

I don't know, my .02.

Jack

[El Tejon]

Note the stock!:rolleyes:

Iwannacoolgun virus is everywhere.:rolleyes:

[Combat-wombat]

Well, I think AKs are less prone to jamming than the M16, so in the dusty environment of Iraq, they are better choices. Jessica Lynch got captured because her M16 jammed from the dust.

[OEF_VET]

Judging from what he is (and isn't) wearing, I'd say he's mosst likely a Reserve Civil Affairs or PsyOps soldier. Notice the old school flak jacket versus the Interceptor vests everyone else is wearing, and the lack of LBV/LCE. Also, he's got his chinstrap behind his neck, rather than in wearing it properly. the soldier on the far right has a 4th ID patch on his Kevlar, but I'd wager this soldier is Reserve CA/PsyOps, where the standards are generally a bit more relaxed than the average Regular Army line unit. Therefore, he's more likely to get away with carrying a non-issued weapon. Although, in the current fight, I wouldn't doubt that some of the more anal officers in those line units are relaxing their standards a bit too.

[OEF_VET]

C-W, Lynch was captured because she was hurt too badly in the wreck. From what I've read, the truth is that she was out of the fight before it began in earnest.

[El Tejon]

OEF, note all of his extra mags for fighting as well as the stock.:rolleyes:

The only other thing this guy needs for his buddies back home is a BAK. What REMF/pogue what to be photographed by his typewriter. You need a really, really big BAK.:rolleyes:

[Aikibiker]

Looks pretty smart to me. His two buddies only have pistols. If I was in a war zone and a pistol was all I had you can be darn sure I would do my best to get a rifle from somewhere.

You could do worse then a full-auto AK for close quarters street fighting and the mad minute of an ambush.

[NapAttack]

Iwannacoolgun virus is everywhere. Could it just possibly be that based on experience the troops want a more reliable weapon than the M-16? And possibly one that's more maneuverable in close quarters urban combat?

Somehow I kind of doubt the Iwannacoolgun virus is very prevalent in front line troops whose life depends on their equipment.

BTW, I'm not interested in starting any war over whether or not the M-16 is reliable or not. I've heard all the arguments about keeping them clean and they're reliable. I'm too old to be in combat so I rely on opinions of folks that have been there and done that. Particularly my son-in-law who is currently on active duty and was assigned armorer's duty as extra duties. It's not his primary job. He was in Kosovo and is probably heading to Iraq pretty soon.

[OEF_VET]

Aiki,

Look real close in the front seat of the HMMWV. You can just pick out the handguards of the M-16A2 that the TC left in the truck. This is a very convienient place to stick your rifle while riding when you don't expect an ambush, or when you're a true REMF and don't want to be able to effectively fight back. It also looks cooler to just have that cool M-9 which fits in his high speed thigh holster, versus that clunky M-16, which just gets in the way.

I'd be willing to bet good money that the TC's (truck commander) LBV/LCE is sitting between the front seats, right in front of the radios. Lord knows he won't need things like ammo or water on him in case someone decides that's a good moment to ambush some American infidels.

[Aikibiker]

OEF_VET,

I missed that, I concede you are a better photo analyst then I.

I would submit that he doesn't have his rifle. The Humvee does, and if SHTF I am sure Mr. Murphy will have firm control of that weapon. For all intents and purposes the TC has an M9 as his only weapon.

Looks like someone in the background has another long-gun with a wood handguard but it is to blurry for me to make out.

[Keith]

Does anyone know how to tell whether that's a 47 or a 74?

Keith

[DigMe]

Could be that it's what he's been carrying in the humvee because it's easier to swing around and maneuver in the confines of a vehicle. My uncle (investigator for Harris County DA) was recently issued an AR-15 with a collapsible stock for that very reason...the higher-ups wanted them to have something that was easy to position within a car.

Makes a lot of sense with the ambushes they've been running into while driving.

brad cook

[WonderNine]

If my experiences with the SKS compared to my Mini-14 is anything to go by, I'll take the AK over the AR any day of the week!

[OEF_VET]

Keith,

No muzzle brake and steel mag vs. bakelite, so I'm guessing it's an AK-47.

Aiki,

Yeah, he does technically have just an M-9, but that was apparently his own foolish doing. He made the concious decision to exit the vehicle with a weapon that isn't fully suited to fighting. Of course, there's the train of thought that a pistol is only intended to fight with until you can get to your long gun.

Personally, though, given the hostile environment, with nearly daily killings of GI's, you wouldn't see me without each and every weapon I had available to me on my person.

DigMe,

Without the doors on the HMMWV, he can just as easily keep the weapon in his left hand with the muzzle pointed out and the handguards resting on his right leg. If the TC is like most GI's I know, he probably rides with his right foot on the door jamb anyways.

Before anyone criticizes that as being easy for someone to take the weapon away from the TC, I challenge you to try it. It's not as easy as you might think, especially if the TC has a good grip on the pistol grip. Any attempt to grab it away is going to result in a series of lead injections into the body cavity.

[CWL]

Folks, I can't tell for certain, but that M9 in the shoulder rig looks like it's missing the mag.

[Wanderer]

It's a 47, it has the regular black mag, instead of the orange ones sometimes used in 74's.

[MAKOwner]

Well they do make orange bakelite 7.62 mags too. You can tell it's the 7.62 by the angle of the mag, the lack of a muzzle break, and the lack of palm swells or whatever you call them on the front handguards. I can't make it out with the stock folded up but that appears to be a forged receiver too, which no '74s had. It appears to just be a run of the mill, old milled AK47 (not even a newer AKM). I don't recall any '74s with the underfolder stock anyway...

[telomerase]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=12&u=/ap/20030824/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_ak_47_heaven_1

[George Hill]

If I was over there, I'd be packing a snagged AK as well.

[jsalcedo]

I would be looking at a Krinkov or one of those MP5 briefcases.

[Gewehr98]

Iwannacoolgun virus is everywhere.

It's a "Klack", and an older, well-used one, at that.

If Uncle Sam is giving Knight's Armaments lots of money to build an M16 variant that uses captured AK magazines and ammo, it ain't because they have iwannacoolgun virus. The KISS principal comes to mind.

See a bunch of SpecOps folks carrying Comrade Mikhail's offspring around these days. Think they're infected? ;)

[SodaPop]

If my experiences with the SKS compared to my Mini-14 is anything to go by, I'll take the AK over the AR any day of the week!

What does a Mini 14 vs SKS have to do with an AK vs AR?

[MPFreeman]

Soda,

I think he may be refering to the SKS action is similar to the AK? But I know the Mini 14 is not the same action as the AR, so I don't know either..

I'm curious too.

[DigMe]

I'm guessing he's probably referring to caliber. Strange comparison.

brad cook

[mattd]

Navy Seals and other spec ops use ak-47s sometimes. Today I went to a air show and the seals was showing people their guns they use and one of them said they are changing to a 7.62 round, anyone else heard of this?

[SodaPop]

They are using AR-10's these days.

American Rifleman had a good article on the present weapons being used.


I've also heard of modified Mini 14's being used in Desert Storm. I believe one of the Mini 14 accurizing companies claimed this.



I personally think the AR is the #1 urban combat weapon in the US. But we don't fight wars here.
:neener:

The AK is hands down a better weapon in most environments.

[swingset]

Ugh. I hated to see this story because I knew every armchair gun expert on planet earth would be racing to the boards with opinions on either side.

The M16 has, in it's history with the US, proven itself over and over and over as a fine battle weapon. Killed alot of BG's, has it not? Harder to maintain? Yes. More accurate? Yes.

The AK has proven itself rugged, reliable and simple enough even a half-baked Somali teenager can kill with it. Good in horrible conditions? Yes. Plentiful and cheap? Yes.

They both have strengths and weaknesses. So what?

[Dave Markowitz]

Note that the gist of the article is that US troops are using AKs because there are not enough M-16s/M-4s to go around. Not because they think AKs are better than our rifles.

Interesting, though, how the US troops are using the AKs in the role for which the M-1 Carbine was originally designed. I.e., a defensive weapon for second line troops or those manning heavy weapons.

[Wanderer]

Ak's can be just as accurate as the Ar-15/ M-16 series of weapons. A friend I know has a Romanian Ak and can shoot inch and a half groups at 300 yards, I've seen the targets. Granted, he does have an Aimpoint on it, but the barrel and action are stock. :cool: Maybe the truth about Jessica Lynch is that she was trying to clean her jammed rifle while driving and flipped the vehicle.:rolleyes:

[El Tejon]

frodo, no, he's not using the AK. Note the folded stock as he is outside the vehicle and his complete lack of mags to feed the AK. It's bling-bling, gangsta cool. This Klack is not for fighting.

It's a trophy to pose with for the folks back home. It's cool, just like the Big A** Knife (BAK) that he poses with. Iwannacoolgun extends to unobtainium as well as grassgreenonothersidium.:rolleyes:

Gewehr, the EBR is cool. The guys at Crane were fully infected with Iwannacoolgunvirus.

[Iain]

I am confused by this story, it appears not to be the old 7.62vs5.56 issue but rather an issue of supplying the right equipment for the job to certain sectors of the military.

The tank crews dislike the m16 because of the room it takes up etc, if I remember part of the documentary I watched on the ''Black Hawk down" incident one of the helicopter pilots was using an MP5. Why not issue tank crews with MP5's in 9mm or 10mm variants? Possibly even use the HK UMP45, the 9mm and .45 rounds are pretty standard if it is an issue of supply.

As to why the British troops have not started using AK's instead of that thing they have - the bullpup design might make for a better urban weapon? Or that perhaps some of the stories about the L85 (?) are a little exaggerated (still doesn't make it a good gun)?

If it was a case of ''I wanna cool gun" then the tank crews should be asking for the ultra-compact FN P90.

Anyway, don't these guys get those things sorted out in line with US law and ship them home as souvenirs?

[Wanderer]

The pilots MP5 also jammed up really badly. I think they should issue Krinkovs to our tank troops, it's compact, reliable, and has enough power.

[Keith]

A friend I know has a Romanian Ak and can shoot inch and a half groups at 300 yards, I've seen the targets. Granted, he does have an Aimpoint on it, but the barrel and action are stock

Your "friend" is full of baloney! You couldn't shoot half-MOA with a custom match rifle equipped with an Aimpoint!

Kith

[Wanderer]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I get the same response everywhere, but I've seen the targets and I completely trust the guy. Believe what you wanna.

[Mute]

I'm gonna guess that part of it is due to the fact that an M16/M4 will identify you as an American soldier faster than anything else. Carrying an AK could help in blending in with the locals.

[Cosmoline]

At the range, even a crappy AR-15 can best my AK. But in the field, when neither weapon has been cleaned in a month and there's a ton of sand on everything, the AK wins HANDS DOWN. Why? Because the AR will have long since jamed solid, while the AK can work fine with no lube, no oil and a patina of rust over everything.

A weapon which must be cleaned three times a day and covered with grease and oil is NOT the ideal desert combat weapon for obvious reasons.

[Cosmoline]

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/236/world/U_S_troops_using_confiscated_I%3A.shtml

Apparently the soldier in the photo in the other thread isn't alone. This should not surprise anyone. In addition to a shortage of firearms for the tank crews, the AK is simply better at protracted action in an urban desert environment, where ranges are short and conditions are both filthy and dusty.

PS--I like the quip about "child soldiers in Africa" :rolleyes:

[fmjcafe]

I don`t know, Cosmo. I`ve seen some pretty crusty looking AR`s in the hands of some of our troops.

[bogie]

1) On accuracy - sometimes all the fliers go into the group, and that group will be the one that gets carried around in your gun case. The shotgun patterns end up in the range trash can.

2) On reliability - The AK wins. Just hope that nobody is shooting at you from behind good cover or from a distance.

3) On war trophies - hey, it's cool! And he can't have it back home!

4) On "battle readiness" - hey, he's able to stand still so that the photographer (and I _better_ not hear bad things about army photographers - I was one!) can get the cool shot.

[Geech]

I've seen the targets and I completely trust the guy.

You should ask to go shooting with him sometime. That'd be quite a sight to see.

[Keith]

I get the same response everywhere, but I've seen the targets and I completely trust the guy. Believe what you wanna.

Do you know how big the dot is in an Aimpoint scope? Even if we accepted the accuracy claim at face value - that through some accident of manufacture, his particular AK was capable of this and that he's handloading some special ammo in match AK brass (which doesn't exist) with match .312 bullets (which also don't exist), it's still an impossible claim because an Aimpoint dot at 300 yards would cover most of the target!

Your friend is pulling your leg!

Keith

[Wanderer]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You should ask to go shooting with him sometime. That'd be quite a sight to see.

I have gone shooting with him and he's a really really good shot. I think it's a 2 power aimpoint, and I believe he was using handloads. Now for a 5 shot group, is it that hard to believe? I used the aimpoint, and yeah, it would've been big, but with a good hold, and proper stance, I believe it is possible. How do you think people reacted when they heard about Elmer Kieths 600 yard shot with a handgun?

[wingnutx]

All I know is that I'd certainly grab an extra weapon if I wasn't already loaded down, and if that weapon is an AK then so much the better.

I have both an AR and an AK at home, no reason not to be as versatile in the field.

I'm a machinegunner, and they never give me the pistol I'm supposed to have, so an AK would make a nice security blanket.

And it looks cool :)

[Gewehr98]

Armor batallion troops are using AK's because there aren't enough M4's to go around.


More U.S. troops using confiscated AK-47 rifles


By ANDREW ENGLAND, ASSOCIATED PRESS

BAQOUBA, Iraq (AP) - An American soldier stands at the side of an Iraqi highway, puts his AK-47 on fully automatic and pulls the trigger.

Within seconds the assault rifle has blasted out 30 rounds. Puffs of dust dance in the air as the bullets smack into the scrubland dirt. Test fire complete.

U.S. troops in Iraq may not have found weapons of mass destruction, but they're certainly getting their hands on the country's stock of Kalashnikovs - and, they say, they need them.

The soldiers based around Baqouba are from an armor battalion, which means they have tanks, Humvees and armored personnel carriers. But they are short on rifles.

A four-man tank crew is issued two M4 assault rifles and four 9mm pistols, relying mostly on the tank's firepower for protection.

But now they are engaged in guerrilla warfare, patrolling narrow roads and goat trails where tanks are less effective. Troops often find themselves dismounting to patrol in smaller vehicles, making rifles essential.

"We just do not have enough rifles to equip all of our soldiers. So in certain circumstances we allow soldiers to have an AK-47. They have to demonstrate some proficiency with the weapon ... demonstrate an ability to use it," said Lt. Col. Mark Young, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 4th Infantry Division.

"Normally an armor battalion is fighting from its tanks. Well, we are not fighting from our tanks right now," Young said. "We are certainly capable of performing the missions that we have been assigned, there's no issue with that, but we do find ourselves somewhat challenged."

In Humvees, on tanks - but never openly on base - U.S. soldiers are carrying the Cold War-era weapon, first developed in the Soviet Union but now mass produced around the world.

The AK is favored by many of the world's fighters, from child soldiers in Africa to rebel movements around the world, because it is light, durable and known to jam less frequently.

Now U.S. troops who have picked up AKs on raids or confiscated them at checkpoints are putting the rifles to use - and they like what they see.

Some complain that standard U.S. military M16 and M4 rifles jam too easily in Iraq's dusty environment. Many say the AK has better "knockdown" power and can kill with fewer shots.

"The kind of war we are in now ... you want to be able to stop the enemy quick," said Sgt. 1st Class Tracy S. McCarson of Newport News, Va., an army scout, who carries an AK in his Humvee.

Some troops say the AK is easier to maintain and a better close-quarters weapon. Also, it has "some psychological affect on the enemy when you fire back on them with their own weapons," McCarson said.

Most U.S. soldiers agree the M16 and the M4 - a newer, shorter version of the M16 that has been used by American troops since the 1960s - is better for long distance, precision shooting.

But around Baqouba, troops are finding themselves attacked by assailants hidden deep in date palm groves. Or they are raiding houses, taking on enemies at close-quarters.

Two weeks ago, Sgt. Sam Bailey of Cedar Falls, Iowa, was in a Humvee when a patrol came under rocket-propelled grenade and heavy machine gun fire. It was dark, the road narrow. On one side, there was a mud wall and palms trees, on the other a canal surrounded by tall grass.

Bailey, who couldn't see who was firing, had an AK-47 on his lap and his M4 up front. The choice was simple.

"I put the AK on auto and started spraying," Bailey said.

Some soldiers also say it's easier to get ammo for the AK - they can pick it up on any raid or from any confiscated weapon.

"It's plentiful," said Sgt. Eric Harmon, a tanker who has a full 75-round drum, five 30-round magazines, plus 200-300 rounds in boxes for his AK. He has about 120 rounds for his M16.

Young doesn't carry an AK but has fired one. He's considered banning his troops from carrying AKs, but hasn't yet because "if I take the AK away from some of the soldiers, then they will not have a rifle to carry with them."

Staff Sgt. Michael Perez, a tanker, said he would take anything over his standard issue 9mm pistol when he's out of his tank.

And the AK's durability has impressed him.

"They say you can probably drop this in the water and leave it overnight, pull it out in the morning, put in a magazine and it will work," Perez said.

[Hutch]

Is anyone else as surprised (stunned, actually) that we are tasking soldiers to go on foot patrols with NO ISSUED RIFLE??? Even if they are track-toads...

[bogie]

Heck - I'd like to be able to consistently shoot 1.5" groups at 300 yards with one of my benchrest/varmint guns...

The key word there is "consistently."

[hops]

All part of Rummy's Defense Depts cost containment plan. Free guns, ammo and parts to equip those US troops who do not have Full-auto M4's or M16's but really should have a full-auto weapon. Colt may not like it, but I as a tax payer do. Too bad surplus AK's can't be sold to the law abiding folks back home to further help the Defense Dept budget.

PS: They are not totally free since we can figure the war costs in to the acquisition of the AK's. So perhaps we can lower the war costs by factoring the savings the AK's are bringing us now.....

[Wanderer]

True, that was probably a luck group, like people sometimes outshoot ransom rests.

[Dave Markowitz]

frodo, no, he's not using the AK. Note the folded stock as he is outside the vehicle and his complete lack of mags to feed the AK. It's bling-bling, gangsta cool. This Klack is not for fighting.

Did you read the article? Maybe this guy is posing with an AK, but the other soldiers referenced in the text of the article were not.

[Horsesense]

When you're "sprain and prayin" at muzzle flashes, coming from heavy vegetation etc you will want the extra penetration of the 7.62

Concealment against an AK can sometimes= cover against an AR

[Combat-wombat]

MAKowner said:
You can tell it's the 7.62 by the angle of the mag, the lack of a muzzle break, and the lack of palm swells or whatever you call them on the front handguards.

For the last time, its "Muzzle BRAKE"!

[Gewehr98]

That El Tejon hasn't responded. ;)

[mattd]

If his ak does get 1.5 groups at 300 yards, that rifle will be worth alot of money.

[Wanderer]

Even if it was, I don't think he'd sell it...

[MAKOwner]

For the last time, its "Muzzle BRAKE"!

ARGHHH!! I always see others typing it like that and it bothers me, then I go and type it break too myself, lol...