[Old Fuff]

Go to this link:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102882319

It's a very early Smith & Wesson K-22 Masterpiece (pre-model 17) in close to new condition. 5-screw, pinned barrel, recessed cartridge rims, original stocks (or at least correct for the period), the whole cotton pick'n works! It does have a very faint turn line on the cylinder, but that's all.

I have done business with the seller, and will recommend them as being honest and reliable to do business with.

Anyone that wants an early K-22 should give this one serious consideration.

Someone is going to wonder, "Why doesn't the Old Fuff jump on this himself?" Because he has a similar one, and it's time to stop trying to get them all. ;)

Edited to Add: My link may not work. If not go to www.gunbroker.com and use: Auction # 102882319 as a search term.

[Just Jim]

Nice piece.

jj

[MCgunner]

Drool.....

[saltydog452]

If I remember right, the right grip panel should be serial numbered to the gun?

The seller didn't mention it, just curious.

Thanks,

salty

[Brian Williams]

Dang $500 is just toooo much.
Nice piece though.

[Shade00]

Agreed.... it is very nice, probably worth every penny, but I don't think I can scrape up that kind of scratch.

[Hawk]

I have a noob question on values:

Assuming no collector value - no box, no papers, all that yadda - wouldn't it still be worth around 500.00 as a shooter?

I'm only asking because a perfunctory review of current 317 and 617 pricing shows MSRPs of 719.00 through 861.00. MSRPs aside, a new 617 seems to have an asking price of around 600.00 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102938278).

'Course there's a lot of stuff I don't understand. Among these things are why a 3" Python that left the factory that way would be worth a dime more than a 3" Python made that way by virtue of a 3" barrel that Colt had surplused to Numrich - I mean, they're both 3" Pythons with 3" Python barrels made by Colt...

I've pretty much given up on understanding "collectibility" but what am I missing regarding the "shooter" value of the pre-17? Or would one not shoot it and be disappointed by the collector value thereof?

[420Stainless]

Fortunately I don't "need" one of these. Least not as bad as I need a DS for a backup to my backup.:o It sure is a sleek looking thing though.

[Old Fuff]

Hawk:

I don't know what I'm going ta' do with you... :uhoh:

While I don't know the serial number, certain cosmetic features make me believe this revolver was made during 1946 when it was first introduced, and the end of 1947. It has absolutely none of the cost-cutting and labor saving changes that were made after that, and at the moment can be had for only $100 less (more or less) then a new gun that has ALL of the cost-cutting and labor saving changes. The new gun represents less quality for more money.

My 3rd. edition Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson says a pre-model 17 in this condition is worth $600 in excellent condition, and this piece is better then that. You very seldom find guns from 1940's in this kind of condition, and I predict that both shooters and collectors are going to be after this one like a duck on a junebug. Follow it on the auction, and if you don't get the gun you will at least get an education. ;)

Salty: I know the seller. It's a big and trustworthy outfit in Michigan. The people in their Auction & Internet section don't bother to look inside to see if the stocks are numbered. But I noticed in the pictures that they are period correct, and fit the frame perfectly. I see nothing to make me think they aren't original, and a lot to make me think they are.

Could be wrong of course...

[Hawk]

I don't know what I'm going ta' do with you...

But we pretty much said the same thing. Allow me to amend my remark to at least 500.00 based on new ones going for just over 600.00.

But it's 12 more days - I don't see that current bid sticking.

;)

[Gordon]

One of these in a local shop in not near as nice comdition for $750

[saltydog452]

If I sounded as though I was doubting anyone's integrity, it was'nt intentional. But, for that period, should the grip panels be numbered to the gun? I don't know for sure, just curious.

Thanks,

salty

[JohnBT]

Here you go Hawk, consecutive 3" stainless Pythons...

ONLY 4 MINUTES LEFT...

15 BIDS...

www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=101913125

"Current Bid $10,587.00 Reserve Not Met"

[JohnBT]

While I'm sitting here thinking about bidding on the gun in the first post, I'm looking at GB. Here's a nice gun, an Outdoorsman with a box.

BUY NOW - $1299.

www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102605820

There are an awful lot of guns with high starting prices. Must be a collector thing.

John

[Old Fuff]

Hawk:

I missed your point... :o :o :o

I thought you were questioning if it was worth $500 when one could get a new one for only $100 (give or take) more.

I don't think the current bid of $500 (if it is that, it could be more) will hold either. Usually when something like this comes along the smart money holds off until near the end, hoping to not start a bidding frenzy. This time its off and running from git-go.

It could go to either a shooter or collector, although serious collectors tend to have deeper pockets, and this one is sure to attract at least a few of them. It would have been interesting to follow if it had been offered on armsbid.com rather then gunbroker's. As I said, the experience will be educational… :)

[geronimotwo]

how can you tell if it has been reblued?

[Old Fuff]

Saltydog:

If I sounded as though I was doubting anyone's integrity,

I didn't take it that way either. I was trying to assure people that this was a "safe seller," if they were considering bidding. Yes, at this time the stocks were individually fitted to each frame, and numbered to that frame. This was true of all of their revolvers, including the .38 Military & Police (pre-Model 10) which was a lower priced bread & butter gun. That kind of feature is long gone, and it's one reason I prefer the older production.

[Old Fuff]

how can you tell if it has been reblued?

The edges and corners haven't been rounded off, and there is no "dishing" around the sideplate screws. When the revolver was originally polished they used wheels and were contoured to match the part. Outside shops seldom or never did (or do) this. The factory finish of that day has a certain “crispness” that one comes to recognize.

[Old Fuff]

JohnBT:

You are right; the revolvers that I bought to shoot during my youthful years have now become expensive collectables. Collectors, as well as others, have noticed that the best guns made between the World Wars and shortly after the second one have a level of quality that is unobtainable in current production, even when it is priced into the thousands of dollars. The old saying "they don't make them like they used too," is all too true, and it's going to be reflected in the going price for those older examples that are in exceptionably fine condition.

[Standing Wolf]

'Course there's a lot of stuff I don't understand. Among these things are why a 3" Python that left the factory that way would be worth a dime more than a 3" Python made that way by virtue of a 3" barrel that Colt had surplused to Numrich - I mean, they're both 3" Pythons with 3" Python barrels made by Colt...

Both barrels were made by Colt. One three-inch barrel was made by Colt. Colt also made the eight-inch barrel, but Bubba shortened it to three inches and attempted to pass off his "work" as Colt's.

In plain English: he's a liar, a cheat, and a thief.

[Hawk]

Both barrels were made by Colt. One three-inch barrel was made by Colt. Colt also made the eight-inch barrel, but Bubba shortened it to three inches and attempted to pass off his "work" as Colt's.

Actually, I'm talking about a Colt of any barrel length getting a genuine 3" Colt Python barrel after the fact. One would buy a (genuine Colt) 3" barrel then install it - voila: Colt Python with 3" Colt Python Barrel.

But the one that left the factory that way is worth much more. In this case the second one isn't a Bubba - it's a real Colt barrel, just didn't come with it originally.

Like this:
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/313d147655ed0bd481fff03548082b2d-58.html

Note that Grant is reporting not doing - I just put it there to better explain how it's not a "bubba".

[Old Fuff]

Among collectors it is considered that a scarce or rare variant isn't genuine unless it was made that way by the factory, and this is especially true of limited editions or short production runs. If it was made outside of the factory, and not clearly represented as to what it is, it's a fake.

Shooters on the other hand are often more generous in this respect. If a gun has been reconfigured outside the factory to a style they like, who did the work doesn't enter into their perspective so long as the job was well done. I see no problem unless the outside job is represented to be a factory product. Doing that is clearly fraud.

A Fitz Special made by Colt, and documented as such is worth some big bucks. The identical gun, if made by the Old Fuff may be functionally equal, but it’s only worth a fraction of the Colt, although it may feel and shoot the same.

[Onmilo]

There are two easy ways to tell if a Smith and Wesson revolver has been reblued.
There are two round head pins on the left side of the frame.
During refinish most folks do not remove these pins and most use some kind of disc polisher with medium.
The resulting polishing flattens these round head pins.
It is very apparent when compared to a known original finish gun.

Second observation trick, on Pre-War revolvers, the cylinders were heat treated.
The original blue came about as part of the heat treating process, it isn't a chemical dip type of blueing.
Most refinishers just chucked the cylinders in the same tank of solution as the rest of the parts and inevitably the cylinders end up with a purple tint to the metal surfaces.
This can be spotted on really good examples of chemical refinishing by placing the cylinder under bright white light.
On most guns it can be detected in moderate lighting.HTH

[CajunBass]

Dang $500 is just toooo much.
Nice piece though.

I looked at one yesterday in my favorite shop and they wanted $500.00 for that one also. Now I admit I have no idea if it was "Pinned and recessed" or not, I don't know enough about Smith & Wesson's to even know what to look for to know if they're "collectors" or not. The one I looked at did have a pair of what looked like, sweat stained smooth "combat" (Roper?) grips, but the guns metal looked great.

I might have to look closer at it the next time I'm down that way.

[Hawk]

Shooters on the other hand are often more generous in this respect. If a gun has been reconfigured outside the factory to a style they like, who did the work doesn't enter into their perspective so long as the job was well done. I see no problem unless the outside job is represented to be a factory product. Doing that is clearly fraud.

Yup.

I guess that's the giveaway: a shooter wouldn't have issue with Grant leaving a "telltale". Ted Green didn't seem to have a shortage of customers for his Lugers although they had a telltale.

Shooters can like nice stuff too but don't have issue with Grant or Ted or Doug Turnbull leaving behind a little love note for whoever gets our stuff after we die and it's passed through a number of hands.

[19-3Ben]

Shooters can like nice stuff too but don't have issue with Grant or Ted or Doug Turnbull leaving behind a little love note for whoever gets our stuff after we die and it's passed through a number of hands.

What, no mention of Marc Morganti?

[Hawk]

Nice stuff but a totally different market. Gemini's custom stuff looks like Gemini's custom stuff - there's not much chance of something they did being sold as a factory original something else.

On the other hand, Doug Turnbull's crew can take a 1949 L.C. Smith Field grade and, after emptying your wallet, ship it back as an L.C. Smith Deluxe Grade.

http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/client_images/catalog19872/pages/images/Catalog_LC_Deluxe.jpg

http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/store.asp?pid=20944

Since I can't control what happens 50 years from now, I wouldn't mind a "DTR" on the water table.

[OFT]

Those high-horn magnas would sell for around $200.00 alone. The guns is definately worth the price.

[19-3Ben]

Nice stuff but a totally different market. Gemini's custom stuff looks like Gemini's custom stuff - there's not much chance of something they did being sold as a factory original something else.

Very true. Hadn't occurred to me. Well in that case, let's give an honorable mention to Ford's. Their restoration work and refinishing is as top notch as i've ever seen.

[bflobill_69]

YOu can pick up a new 617 for around $600?

Man I need to move to a more polpulated area LOL!

I have been hitting gun shows locally now for months, and the used model 17's are just hard to handle starting around $650 and many as much as $1k

/sigh

Bflobill_69

[Hawk]

The little that I've seen of Ford's is indeed nice looking but it seemed more geared to what looked good as opposed to what looked right. Admittedly, this is more a function of their customer's specs than their abilities but it seems they're as likely as not to return a 28-2 looking like a 27-2 minus the checkering.

Ford's still bills themselves as a "refinisher" where DTR and RGS are more "restorers". RGS was behind Colt's repro 1911 finish and Turnbull does Colt SAA case color.

http://www.ronsgunshop.com/
http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/

http://www.fordsguns.com/

I'll not bag on Ford's but I wouldn't be too concerned about them marking a "telltale" - probably not needed. But I've been wrong before. I couldn't find where they even offer shotgun resto much less shotgun "upgrades".

But I'll go along with "honorable mention".
:)

[19-3Ben]

Hence honorable mention vs. spectacular quality restoration since they really are more of a refinishing outfit.:)

[Old Fuff]

RGS was behind Colt's repro 1911 finish

Perhaps the light played tricks in the photograph, but the color is much closer to Colt's "gas oven blue" of the 1920' and 30's that that used in 1918, which was flat, and almost black. Because of wartime demand Colt cut back on the polishing which along without getting the parts completely clean, degraded the finish. I doubt that they'd ever duplicate the true military look, as too many customers would be disapointed.

Earlier Colt World War One reproductions were done up in their current "Royal Blue," which was even further away for the real thing.

[Hawk]

Turnbull makes specific mention of the 1918 "Army Black" but doesn't appear to illustrate it.

http://www.turnbullrestoration.com/store.asp?pid=20791

I'd be interested in what you thought of the pre-1918 as presented by Turnbull vs RGS.

That 1911 "Commercial" is downright gorgeous, though. If the nitre blue is really period correct for commercial production it makes for a fine looking piece. I'm not sure if the finish on the 1900 would be considered "Royal Blue" (on Turnbull's pics) but it seems distinct from both the pre-1918 military 1911 and commercial finishes.

[Old Fuff]

Hawk:

Went and looked at the 1911 pictures. :)

There are problems in trying to judge finish color and texture because first the picture may not be faithfully color corrected, and second - your monitor (and mine) are probably not corrected in the way they show the picture. So what you see and what I see may be different. The only way I know of to really understand the differences is to attend some of the large collector shows (which are not your typical neighborhood gun show) where the various classic and antique guns in excellent to mint/new condition are being displayed. Then your own eyeballs will show you the difference, and color calibration is a moot issue.

As a side note, buying anything will literally cost you a fortune, but looking and training your eyeballs is not all that expensive. I highly recommend the experience.

Anyway, Colt generally used the same blue on all they’re commercial revolvers and (later) pistols from before the Civil War to around 1920 or a little earlier. Between the wars until about 1940 they used the same blue on both commercial and military guns. In 1940 they changed to Parkerizing and/or DuLite salt bath blue, and following the second war they stayed with DuLite to the present day, which is the basis for their Royal Blue.

So anyway, Colt's early commercial (not military) 1911 pistols were finished like the pictured model 1900. The pictured WW-1 era 1911 looks like the military finish prior to the war, and I'm not sure what the bottom one is supposed to represent.

Charcoal Blue = Dark high-gloss black (like a pool of India ink)
Gas Oven Blue = Satin/wire brush - blue-blue color
Niter Blue = Similar in color to Gas Oven Blue, but higher gloss. Only used on small parts.
DuLite = Salt bath blue, still used today.

If this hasn’t left you confused, nothing will.

[JohnBT]

Good info;

I'm confused, but it's not about guns and it's not your fault; it's early.

Meanwhile, an update on the K-22...

"Current Bid $623.00 No Reserve! Started at $500.00
# of bids 2
Time left 11 Days,"

[Hawk]

"Current Bid $655.00 No Reserve! Started at $500.00
# of bids 3
Time left 11 Days,"

Good thing the smart money doesn't start until the bitter end.

I take it this is a warm-up?

[Old Fuff]

Good thing the smart money doesn't start until the bitter end. I take it this is a warm-up?

In my experience, when something "interesting" comes along that attracts the deep-pocket crowd they watch but hold off 'till the last hours or even minutes. Then things go wild! That's why the auctions have a rule that if a bid is received during the last 15 minutes the time is extended another 15 - and so on until 15 minutes goes by with no further bids. It is not unusual for the overtime period to go on for an hour or even more.

I this case someone started the bidding right off, even before many potential bidders knew it was there. Now it is being discovered, and some may believe that since the ball has started there is no reason to wait.

If nothing else this performance shows that those that said, "$500 is WAY too much" were clearly not up to date, and also it's a great lesson about what happens when a firearm that was previously only interesting to shooters sundenly becomes attactive to collectors.

Of course we all know that guns are a poor choice from an investment point of view. :rolleyes: :D

[Old Fuff]

JohnBT:

I'm confused, but it's not about guns and it's not your fault; it's early.

How might I enlighten you?? :)

[Old Fuff]

On checking the latest auction action :D I discovered that at the moment there are two bidders. Bidder #1 started things off at $500. Then bidder #2 came along. Now bidder $1 has trumped him with a still higher bid at $655.

Bidder #1 is new to the game, having bought only 1 gun previously. Bidder #2 has more experience as his previous buy record stands at 32. But obviousy bidder #1 is serious, and both are off and running... ;)

Stay tuned. :cool:

[JohnBT]

"How might I enlighten you??"

Thank you, but I'm doing better now - I needed more coffee. The hard part of the day is over - the clients are gone - and all I'm left with is 6 hours of paperwork. Then I'm off for the rest of the week whether I finish it all or not.

I'm tempted to throw a bid or three at that K-22 just to see what happens with a week and a half to go. It would be okay if I ended up with it since don't have a 6" Model 17 variety, only 4" and 8-3/8".

John

[PattonTime]

Hi All,

I am bidder number 2, it is still my game and will be for awhile . I bought
this guns cousin recently and hope to get this one.
Acually the one I own is a K-38 no matter I want this one and I want someday to acquire what is the grail gun of early K Frames the K-32 I don't see that happening soon
as Mr Gwimer who has several wants $3495.00 to $3995.00 for his. But someday....

P.S. They made about 3600 K32's In the run of about 30 years hence the high price tag. There were many times that in K22 though not so many "high horn early guns"

My mistake bidder number 1 is very serious I guess I will have to just watch

[Hawk]

As the world turns...


"Current Bid $755.00 No Reserve! Started at $500.00
# of bids 4
Time left 11 Days,"

[Old Fuff]

Yup.....

Bidder #1 is at $755 and holding. :what:

Obviously $500 wan't to high for what this particular revolver represents in today's market. But at $755 it may discourage some other potential bidders who were waiting. We shall see.

As an aside: I presume the seller has $400 or less into it. That should be a lesson for those that sell without knowing what they are selling. In addition, if someone had walked into the store and laid down $500, they would have got the gun before it was offered on Gunbrokers. Several lessons here

[Hawk]

Should be interesting ten days hence when the serious bidding starts.

[Old Fuff]

JohnBT:

There is no advantage in placing an early bid unless there is a tie. I suggest you wait and see where things are toward the end. At this point it's getting closer to its true (collector's) value. However if someone overbids they'll say, "so what, the value will soon catch up and I'll be way ahead in the long run,"

And they'd probably be right. If you factor in inflation, money is going down in value. That might partly explain the willingness of some to place these hig bids.

But that doesn't matter to the seller... :scrutiny:

[JohnBT]

You know, the problem with me buying it isn't the money. The problem is this - I'd buy it and shoot it regularly and I wouldn't enjoy it because I'd feel bad for the collectors who just want to own it and look at it. :)

The heck with value, I just want to shoot great guns. Life's too short to shoot clunky guns.

Not that I'm a older-is-better fanatic you understand, I take them where I find them. My 2 favorite Model 17's are a 17-4 and a 4" 17-6 and they aren't too shabby as guns go. Of course it took some looking to find good specimens. My favorite Python is a 1990 model. My favorite 1911 is a Colt 1911 Repro. All of the newer guns aren't rough around the edges, just a lot of them.

Pretty soon that K-22 is going to be up in the range of "That's 1/3 the price of a new Guerini clays gun."

This is fun, I love watching folks spend money. The only thing that's more fun is helping them do it.

John

[JohnBT]

Speaking of watching folks spending money, I just checked in on the auction of the pair of stainless 3-inch Pythons. Here's the link again. Started at $3k and drew 18 bids.

www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=101913125

"This item has been Sold!"

"Current Bid $20,000.00 Reserve Met!"

__________________________________________

I don't understand these auctions. Was the winner bidding against himself or do some bids not show in the list? I wouldn't think he'd go up in $2k intervals trying to top the Reserve Price, but what do I know. The only gun I've ever bought off GB was a Nylon 76 for $450 and I gave that to my uncle.

6/22/2008 9:29:33 PM EST $20,000.00 ddsonecell A+(140)
6/22/2008 9:24:49 PM EST $18,000.00 ddsonecell A+(140)
6/22/2008 9:23:05 PM EST $16,000.00 ddsonecell A+(140)
6/22/2008 9:10:22 PM EST $10,587.00 wingedent A+(1)
6/22/2008 8:59:54 PM EST $10,200.00 smokin 101 A+(40)
6/22/2008 8:55:28 PM EST $10,027.00 wingedent A+(1)

[cpaspr]

JohnBT -

Beating the reserve is exactly what it looks like he was trying to do. He had high bid at $16k, but if it didn't beat the reserve the seller wasn't required to sell. He apparently really wanted them, so kept bumping till he surpassed the reserve.

[JohnBT]

But why not bump it $500 at a time instead of $2k? He might have saved a grand or so. You know, a grand here, a grand there and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

John

[Hawk]

I believe if he went sailing past the reserve his bid would have stopped at the seller's reserve number. He could have put in 26K and it still would've posted at 20K unless the reserve was higher or somebody outbid him. This last looks to be pretty dang unlikely.

Not like I'm an expert on Gunbroker - never once bought a gun there but I think that's how it worked on Auctionarms.

ETA: Yup, per the support FAQ
Bidders can bid lower than the Reserve Price, but the bidder will not be obligated to buy the item until bidding meets or exceeds the Reserve Price. A Seller is also not obligated to sell the item unless bidding meets the Reserve Price. The auction starts at the Starting Bid price. When a bidder's maximum bid is equal to or greater than the reserve price, AutoBid will post a bid that meets the reserve price for the item.

[Old Fuff]

You are correct. If you meet the reserve price or more and there isn't a higher bid, you will get it for the reserve price. The same holds true on other auctions. If I placed a bid of $950 on the K-22 (highly unlikely) and there were no other bids, I would get it for $755 + whatever the next step up is.

This presumes that bidder #1 hasn't already bid over $950. They will not show the amounts of the bids until the auction is over.

[Hawk]

Well, Fuff, since this is supposed to be educational...

What makes the article in question worth a minimum of 80.00 more than this here 5 screw (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102993418) or 50.00 more than this 5 screw with ratty gold box (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102840245)?

Shouldn't the ratty gold box cover some of the distance in condition - the Fuff heads up article does seem less used to my eye but it's not a glaring difference (this could be a deficiency in my eye, admittedly).

This whole thing is playing merry hob with what I thought I had learned about ratty gold boxes. :)

[Bellevance]

Old Fuff--

Shouldn't a K-22 5-screw of this vintage have the one-line address? If not, then some earlier specimens must have been manufactured with the four-line address before S&W went, temporarily, to the one-line. Is that the case?

Mine (K-170XX), which has the one-line address, letters as having been shipped in early February, 1948.

Thanks for any clarification you can offer.

[Old Fuff]

I looked at the two guns you cited...

Neither of them is in as good condition as the one we have under consideration, and with collectors condition is everything! Both revolvers have noticeable turn rings on the cylinder, and the blue appears to be more worn. Notice that the case-colors on the hammer and triggers seem to have faded, (although this may be because of the way the photograph was taken). The second one has a tattered box – and also an aftermarket rear sight. Supica doesn’t list the value of the box, but I’d say $50 to $75 because of its condition. Those high prices you have seen on Colt boxes are for perfect boxes where someone wants to use them with a new or like-new gun. While a shooter wouldn’t be worried about the rear sight (and might even like it better then the stock one) the replacement would turn off a collector, where everything must be absolutely original.

If there is a dogfight over the gun we are looking at it’s because what appears to its 99% condition. Take that down to 96% and the extra-high price would drop like a rock.

All of this wouldn’t effect a shooter at all, and the “I shoot everything I got 'cuz they was made to be shot!!!” crowd wouldn’t even notice there was a difference. But a collector would look at it with a copy of Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson in hand, and check out every little detail.

It's the difference between cultures and perspectives, but usually collectors have deeper pockets.

I also think that both of these guns will pick up more bids before they're respective auctions are over.

[JohnBT]

Thanks a bunch, that explains the bid progression.

What are we looking at for a final price on this K-22 - $1000, $1250, $1400? I'm just guessing, but I'm known for the accuracy of my hunches at the poker table. Only at the poker table though. :) When it comes to guns I have a sign on my forehead that says "Pays sticker price."

Huh, now I see the ad has a new post:

"THE PREVIOUS INFORMATION ON THE SER# is INCORRECT NUMBER IS K333xx. Sorry for previous addendum"

John

[Bellevance]

"THE PREVIOUS INFORMATION ON THE SER# is INCORRECT. NUMBER IS K333xx. Sorry for previous addendum"

Thanks, JohnBT. I guess that number would place the gun square in the middle of 1948, after S&W went to the four-line address.

[XavierBreath]

Smith & Wesson changed their simple "Made In USA" rollmark to the more complex four line bilingual version in May, 1948.

[Hawk]

Supica doesn’t list the value of the box, but I’d say $50 to $75 because of its condition. Those high prices you have seen on Colt boxes are for perfect boxes where someone wants to use them with a new or like-new gun.

So the condition of the firearm trumps the presence of a ratty box? I find that eminently sensible and comforting. I was beginning to wonder after the "box" thread. I mean this collector crowd is populated by those that place an 8,000.00 premium on a 3" barrel applied in CT vs the exact same Colt manufactured 3" barrel applied in, say, Rhode Island.

Before we get a full scale war going between the shooters and collectors, would I be correct in assuming that the 99% piece could, in fact, be shot without giving anyone a case of the vapors? I'm assuming reasonable care here - say shot about as much as it seems to have already been shot - likely to add some leetle bit to the turn line but not dragged through a gravel parking lot? Gently and lovingly used, in other words?

Although it appears that even a generous application of "shooter value" will be left behind once the serious bidding starts...

Only two bidders at this point but 3 answers to questions after the last "bump" - guess we're fixin' to see some stuff...

[Bellevance]

Smith & Wesson changed their simple "Made In USA" rollmark to the more complex four line bilingual version in May, 1948.

Thanks, XavierBreath. There must have been a sturdy rationale for their making that change. Do you know what it was?

[XavierBreath]

I do not know for certain, but at the time they were going after the many S&W copy cat manufacturers in Spain. Chances are, to help stop the copying in another country, they had to meet some odd law stating that the trademark had to be in that language.

[Old Fuff]

Between the world wars, Spanish makers flooded Mexico, Central America and South America with counterfeit S&W revolvers. Then they added insult to injury by exporting them to the United States. Smith & Wesson then sued the importers to get an injunction. They also started to mark their revolvers (in English) “Made in U.S.A.” starting in May 1922. This marking continued through World War Two.

After World War Two they introduced a new serrated ribbed barrel on their target models (including service guns with adjustable sights) and the practice of stamping the company name and/or patent dates on top of the barrel was no longer practical. So they dropped the patent dates, and started the 4-line marking on the right side of the frame in 1948.

[Old Fuff]

Before we get a full scale war going between the shooters and collectors, would I be correct in assuming that the 99% piece could, in fact, be shot without giving anyone a case of the vapors? I'm assuming reasonable care here - say shot about as much as it seems to have already been shot - likely to add some leetle bit to the turn line but not dragged through a gravel parking lot? Gently and lovingly used, in other words?

Dyed in the wool collectors’ regard shooters as some kind of outrageous vandals. Their ideal is an untouched piece absolutely brand new, in the original box with all the papers, tags, and accessories. Some I’m sure, don’t even tolerate test firing at the factory. To get what they want they’ll spend obscene amounts of money, but if they detect anything less than absolute perfection they’ll drop the value in a heart beat. They regard (often with justification) their collection to be pieces of history that must be preserved as they are, and not otherwise used.

But occasionally you get one of those vile persons that have so much money they can afford the best and go shoot it anyway. :eek: :rolleyes:

Then there are some less well-heeled collectors that have to accept a used piece that they can afford, and since the use shows they often are willing to, and enjoy shooting it; unless it’s an antique or classic where shooting might cause serious parts breakage.

The war you mentioned starts when collectors get interested in guns formally of interest only to shooters. Detective Special’s are an example. In any context they’re a very practical gun to carry, but collectors are well on the way toward making the best examples too expensive for they’re intended purpose. It is only recently that collectors have been showing real interest in post-war revolvers, but now they are, and escalating prices on the best ones are going to drive the, “I shoot everything I buy because that’s what guns are made for,” advocates up the wall. In the foreseeable future they won’t be able to afford anything but the most beat-up examples.

[PattonTime]

As the man who sadly has already lost out on this gun, I would like a opinion
on why the 22cal versions always seem to go for more then 38 specials
I bought this guns virtual twin last month for $656.00 easily the same condition
my seller called it 99 1/2 percent and I concur I have no box but a beautiful gun.
I have seen this pattern often.I also have a 1958 M-14 I paid $375.00
and a unfired combat gripped full underlug M-14 from about "91" with box
that I paid $450.00 for. P.S. it is no longer unfired. Try to match those deals with Model
17's and you will see what I mean.

Regards,

"PattonTime"

[Hawk]

Thanks, Fuff.

A most insightful explanation of the collector vs. shooter conundrum. Wars are always less likely when we better understand our adversaries' motivations. ;)

Fortunately, there should be a moderate supply of "slightly more used" examples more suitable to my ends. It's not too late yet.

A sobering thought is that I might one day find myself inadvertantly paying extra for the "high horn magnas" that one poster mentioned. The sobering part is that I don't know what a "high horn magna" is - apart from a grip. Horns? High?

Another skirmish in the war is the point at which it becomes acceptable to restore a firearm rather than leave it in its original, but possibly sorry, state - that's grist for a whole different thread, though.

[Old Fuff]

O.K. We Have A New Ballgame!

Same seller as we had before, and I recommend them as "safe to deal with."

They have added some additional Smith & Wesson's on Gunbrokers. Both lookers and potential bidders should check these out.


Model 19 .357 Combat Magnum:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103248456

Model 17 K-22 Masterpiece:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103249342

Model 16 K-32 Masterpiece:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103255820

Model 57 .41 Magnum:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103256451

Model 30 .32 Hand Ejector:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103257414

[Old Fuff]

Have some more to add to the above list, and I haven't touched pistols yet. Apparently someone sold a large collection, and most of these seem to be LNIB. Maybe others might be coming. All are from the same seller.

Model 67 Stainless .38 Combat Masterpiece:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103302343

Model 28 .357 Highway Patrolman

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103302867

Model 40 .38 Centennial (Hammerless/grip safety)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103303813

Model 37 .38 Airweight Chief Special

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103306413

Model 12 .38 M&P Airweight

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103307192

Model 43 .22 RF 22/32 Kit Gun (Ariweight)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103307629


Model 34 22 RF 22/32 Kit Gun (Steel)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103309836

[Shade00]

Beautiful kit guns. Very tempting.

[Old Fuff]

I can't keep up!!! Do the following:

1. Click on one (any one) of the posted links.

2. Click on: View seller's other auctions

3. Go to the bottom of the page and click on page 5

4. Start toward the bottom of the page and then move on to page 6, and any thereafter.

If you want to see what is going on in the used S&W handgun market, and possibly the conflict between shooters v. collectors; bookmark these links and follow the auctions to the end. Most of the opening bids seem reasonable and even low. None of these guns have any reserve prices.

At best you might get a gun, and in any case you'll get an education. :)

[Shade00]

No, I refuse. You have to do all the work and keep this thread updated. :mad:

By the way, for those who are unfamiliar with Gunbroker, it works like Ebay in that you can watch Auctions - it would certainly be easier to just add these to your watch list, where you can access them after they have ended to check on the final prices.

[Old Fuff]

Have this problem... :(

Seems a thunder-banger has move into the area and parked. :what:

Lost electric power once, and the lightning is not particularly good for computers. So after this message I'm going to shut down. In the meantime anyone who wants can follow the above links, and the seller has added more. We may not be at the end yet.

I'll get Hawk educated yet... :neener:

[FieroCDSP]

Don't panic!!!, Fuff.... I've had thunder storms in waves.... Seven so far today (including the one that just started up now). Been like this for three out of four days so far. I blame Kalifornia for not doing enough to further global warming.

[Old Fuff]

Just a heads-up to remind those who are interested in the outcome of this auction.

The auction will end tomorrow, Saturday, July 5, 2008 at around 10:00am EST. You can use this link to follow the action (if there is any) or check later to see what happened.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102882319

[Hawk]

It appears to have gone sailing through untouched from 6/24.

Taking this as an opportunity for education, would one assume it sold for something over market? Bidder #2 participated in this thread and I inferred from his post (perhaps incorrectly) that the assumption was that his 750.00 bid would put bidder #1 on the trailer rather than trigger the proxy-bid functionality of Gunbroker.

Is the current market closer to the 650 number with bidder #1's max bid probably out of context?

All the collectors watched it sail past for around 10 days with no flurry at the end.

Or is stuff simply more likely to close without activity if it closes on a holiday weekend?

And, if you're in a 'splainin' mood, Fuff, what's up with the model 58 at 806.00?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103322256
Roughly 100.00 over what I gave for a 57 'bout a year ago - the 58 has a box but my 57 had a wooden box (with the sorriest excuse for blue flocked plastic ever). The 58 is even more than a 57 by the same seller. Although the 57 might be down a tad in condition (still has a box, though).
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103256451

Is the 58 more collectible than the 57 or is it a condition thing or does the fact that there remains plenty of time for either to get bid up make it too early to speculate?

[Shade00]

Nickel tends to bring a premium over blued guns - my only thought.

[Hawk]

Interesting. If the 58 was intended to be more of a "working gun" then I guess nickel would be more unusual on the 58 than the 57?

[Old Fuff]

I've been waiting to see if a combination of gas and food costs, combined with general inflation might start having an effect. Also the holiday weekend could be a factor. And yes, $755 is over-market, especially if you add $25.00 for shipping and probably an additional FFL Dealer's fee. But someone wanted that particular gun very badly, and money didn't matter. I suspect he might have gone higher, but he didn't need to.

The Model 58 has cult status, both with shooters and collectors, so they are fighting it out. Also the Model 57 is a lot more common.

If you were the Old Fuff you'd have your copy of Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson out reading the fine print and production totals for each of these guns. On more then one occadion that book has paid for itself.

The one I find interesting is the .38/44 Heavy Duty. It's pulling some big bids even though the rear sight is badly dinged.

I think that this collection is going to provide a lot more education. :evil: :D

[JohnBT]

I'm watching the 6" Model 17-4 w/box. "Current Bid $606.00" with 3 days left.

I don't think I'd sell my 8-3/8" 17-4 w/box for that. That's a lot of money for a 17-4, but I like the gun and the 2x Burris scope that's on it.

I'm not bidding on any of those guns. Two weeks ago I paid my yearly real estate taxes and last week I replaced my 4.5-year-old computer because it died. That's $4.5k right there, so ... aw, what the heck, it's only money, right? Let me take another look at that list. :)

All of that going on and I'm the happiest about the 4 fat-50 ammo cans I bought to get some of the stray ammo boxes off the floor and the dresser.

Well, I've been looking through the auction list while I'm rambling, but I haven't bid on anything yet. Too many choices.

John

[Old Fuff]

So far I haven't bid either, but I am doing my homework. I suspect that any guns that don't go the first time around will be relisted at a lower price. It is unusual to see a collection of Smith & Wesson's of this size and quality from a single seller on Gunbrokers. It would not be surprising to see them on Armsbid.com, and I suspect that they’re would be more action there where more serious collectors’ hang out.

But I am starting to think that the economy is putting a damper on things - with notable exceptions of course.

[Hawk]

If you were the Old Fuff you'd have your copy of Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson out reading the fine print and production totals for each of these guns. On more then one occadion that book has paid for itself.
There's another use I'd have for the thing: I could look for the models with the largest production runs. I take it that would increase my chances of finding a pristine but shootable article not getting swarmed by collectors?

Shooters, after all, don't care how many were made - the more the merrier.
:)

[JohnBT]

"the economy is putting a damper on things - with notable exceptions of course."

I'm not notable :) I've just been working since I was 15. Dang, that's 42 years, soon to be 43.

I irritate the heck out of folks when I pray out loud for higher gas prices. Everytime it goes up a dime the traffic thins out a little more on my weekly Interstate trip to take my father to lunch and then visit my mother at the nursing home.

Did I really need a computer with a quad core processor? Nah. Same with the video card I bought. But it's easier to buy it right the first time than to suffer the pangs of regret year after year - just like guns.

John

[Old Fuff]

Hawk:

Obviously the models with the largest production numbers were the most popular, but sometimes within the big totals you find a variant that is between scarce and rare.

Collectors seldom bother me because they insist on the very best (and pay for it) while I'll accept something with a little mileage that marked down enough to be affordable. However once and awhile lightning strikes and the Old Fuff scores. It's a case of being alert and watching for opportunities

Unfortunately too many other folks have bought the book too... :(

[Old Fuff]

John BT:

I irritate the heck out of folks when I pray out loud for higher gas prices. Everytime it goes up a dime the traffic thins out a little more on my weekly Interstate trip to take my father to lunch and then visit my mother at the nursing home.

I don't generally drive on holiday weekends, but today I ran into town and noticed the traffic was way below expectations. There is no question that some folks are spending their gun money on gas. I don't think we'll see guns of this kind of quality again. The future is going to belong to polymer pistols. Fortunately most of today's shooters can't cope with a 5 or 6 round capacity. :evil: