[Afy]

How little I know about reloading.

An observation I have is, given that accuracy is dependent on freebore, and that varies from rifle to rifle.. the OAL of the cartridge will also vary from rifle to rifle.

So the cartridge length gauges that check if your OAL is within spec really isnt needed. In reality the max OAL is actually the minimum OAL for your rifle... if you're in pursuit of accuracy.

What is needed is a dummy cartridge for each bullet weight and type, adjusted to be off lands by 0.01 - 0.02 to help adjust your die.
And a notebook to constantly update this OAL.. as the throat wears out due to shooting.

So why buy the Length guage?

Also is this only true of rifles or does it apply to pistols as well. In revolvers I guess it will depend on cylinder lenght.

Or is this all just obvious stuff I should have figured out prior to loading my first cartridge?

[mkl]

I'm not aware that there is such a thing as an OAL length gauge -- probably for the reason you mention.

There are case length gauges and published maximum length specifications which are useful to follow if you wish to prevent the case neck from cramming into the chamber throat and increasing pressure. Most of us just use a set of calipers to determing case length.

The dummy cartridge method is one used frequently to adjust dies from one bullet style to another, especially if the cartridges are for different rifles.

Never heard of anyone worrying about case length on straight wall handgun cases.

[Ridgerunner665]

You pretty much nailed it Afy...

It matters in pistols...if you're shooting over 100 yards with them (some people do).

Its a matter of how far you shoot....the farther you are going to shoot, the more it matters.

If you are referring to a headspace gauge...yes its good to have one...they are very helpful.

[Doug b]

That crimp ring plays a much bigger role with revolvers than it does rifles.

[ForneyRider]

For rifle, I use a plastic-tipped bullet fitted in a loose-neck case and chamber it. I then come back .020in from there. This rendered my deer gun into a single shot.

Since this method doesn't work for most production guns as the magazine is limiting factor, I set the bullet to just fit the magazine without touching and then measured to make sure I was less than max OAL.

Supposed to start over with min. powder charges and work up.

For Pistol, I use the Dillon case gage @ 11$. Made life easier when I started .45ACP.

[Afy]

For head spacing I found an easier method...

Take a case and cut vertically to the shoulder across the neck. then push a bullet very lightly into the neck and place in chamber.

Closing the bolt will seat the bullet and give you an OAL to the rifling. And then reduce by .02 or 0.01 and work up loads. At least that is what I am trying now...

And yes I confused case lenght guage with OAL guage... my bad..

[Ridgerunner665]

That works too...I have done it that way myself a few times.

[rcmodel]

For head spacing I found an easier method...Seems we are also confusing headspace with bullet seating depth!

rcmodel

[Ridgerunner665]

I wasn't sure if I wanted to try to explain that one rcmodel...

Headspacing is done from the shoulder on rimless and non belted rounds.

From the rim on rimmed rounds.

From the belt on belted rounds (most of the time).

Seating depth is more of a measure of freebore or "jump" to the lands.


Now....for pistols...

From the case mouth on straight walled rounds.

I'm not sure about the bottlenecked pistol rounds...I've never loaded any.

[Afy]

Seems we are also confusing headspace with bullet seating depth!

rcmodel

True... like I said I know nothing... but am willing to learn:evil:

[strat81]

I picked up my Hornady manual again this week and started looking through it. Some of the later chapters (just before the data starts) have some very interesting, and somewhat advanced topics.

[Galil5.56]

OAL is very important in pistols too. CZ pistols tend to have short leades, while my Walther and Beretta are rather generous. Many cast bullet loads that would chamber fine in my Walther and Beretta would not work in the CZ.

I know how benchresters obsess over all factors, but I'm just an enthusiast that has an old school LA Mauser, Shaw Bull barrel in .243, straight 12x Burris scope, use basic non weight sorted Rem/Win cases with un-turned necks, non unformed primer pockets, non deburred flash holes, throw charges, use basic off the shelf varmint bullets all loaded on a sloppy 550B with FL std RCBS dies. Only shoot three shot groups at 100 yards, and it still shoots sub .25" from bags. I use experience and a 15 year old set of Chinese calipers as my OAL gauge. Guess I'll just have to settle for good enough.

[rcmodel]

+1 Galil5.56
I'm pretty much the same way.

I don't own a Stoney-Point gage, and never could see the use for them.

Anything I need to know about sizing & sizing headspace, I can find out by taking the firing pin out of a rifle bolt and smoking the case with a .50 cent candle.


Same with seating depth.
Smoke the long-seated bullet with the candle and try it in the rifle.

When you stop seeing rifling marks rubbing the soot off, it's close enough for gobber-mint work!

Like you, I'm sure my rifles & loads are more accurate then I am, and I can shoot ragged-hole groups on a good day.

That's plenty good enough for me too.

rcmodel

[Galil5.56]

Nice that you agree RC. It seems the Internet has made a lot of folks think factory spec rifles/pistols are inadequate, or it would be so much better if I reflexively "upgraded" despite decent, will get better with practice results. Anyone do anything for fun anymore, or without needing competition or ego stroking? Funny how a person will buy a nice serviceable rifle, and the first thing they do is ask "what do I need to buy" or upgrade, and believe if they throw enough $$$ at it, it will magically shoot sooooo much better.

I think learning how to shoot and spending all that $$$ on reloading stuff will produce greater dividends, and that they learn early that the vast majority of rifles sold, are completely capable of being fully underutilized by the operator. Probably the most consistently accurate rifle I ever shot was a beat up "budget grade" Rem 788 in 243 topped with a crappy Bushnell scope. It was an honest one holer, and had a fantastic trigger.

I guess I'll never be "EXTREME" enough by using my old school powders, rifles, and reloading gear, but lack of consistency, accuracy and safety will never be an issue, and I will have actually enjoyed going about it. :) The minute relaoding/shooting becomes a chore, a truckload of crap will be on the THR for sale board.

[Griz44]

LOL, sounds familiar. I shoot a 1-2" group with my 30-06. Let's see, the deer at 150 yards, strike zone is about 8" in diamter for one-shot drop-in-the-tracks killer-put-meat-on-the-table shooting. The gun and ammo I load are not nearly as good as many who shoot here, but the focus is not the same. I love watching a guy put 10 rounds in the same hole at 200 yards, I will never be that good, or own equipment that good, but it is still thrilling to see it done. I figure that I can get at least three of 7 in 1-1/2" at 20 yards with my pistol, that ought to work great at 10' across my bedroom in the middle of the night - God forbid I should ever need to. Yes, I do push myself to get better, and make better ammo, stopping at the doorstep to spending more money than I can afford. I do love this sport/hobby. It's all good no matter what level you run at. JUST BE SAFE DOING IT!

[Waddison]

Love your sig line, Griz.

[mkl]

Let's try this to clear up the definition between OAL and headspace:

From the SAAMI glosary:

HEADSPACE
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.

Note that it says "surface" and not "bullet tip" or "bullet ojive."

rcmodel is dead on with his comment.

[Walkalong]

I have never had a Stoney Point, or similar, gauge either. I did not need it to get my seating depth/jump to the lands in my 6PPC Rosenthal action Bench gun. .020 to .030 into the lands usually worked real well with very light neck tension. I was a "seat em square into the lands" believer when I was shooting. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to it soon. I miss the competition. :)

A day at the range getting your eyes beat out by your shooting buddies is better than a day at home, but it's even better than that when you manage to beat their eyes out. :D

[Afy]

Could you explain neck tension to me please?

Is it the inner diameter of the neck post resize? Or the seating depth or a combination of the two.

How do you actually increase or decrease this?

[cracked butt]

Take a case and cut vertically to the shoulder across the neck. then push a bullet very lightly into the neck and place in chamber.

Closing the bolt will seat the bullet and give you an OAL to the rifling. And then reduce by .02 or 0.01 and work up loads. At least that is what I am trying now...


There's one major 'gotcha' with this method-

If there is too much neck tension, the bullet will jam several thousanths into the rifling before setting back. When extracting, the bullet will often stick in the lands pulling it forward before releasing. You'll get a false reading every time.

A cheap improvise method that I use:

Close the bolt on an empty chamber and run a close fitting cleaning rod down the bore from the muzzle end. Mark the rod at the muzzle with a Sharpie marker. Chamber your 'slotted case neck+bullet gizmo' and gently run the cleaning rod down the bore until it stops. Mark the cleaning rod again. The distance between your two marks (from bottom of first mark to bottom of second mark) is your OAL for the bullet touching the lands for that particular bullet. Back off 0.020" for starters.

The Stoney Point guage isn't particularly useful for many rifles. Many rifles have leades that are way too long, the only rifles that Its been particularly helpful for for me is with the K-31 and the AR-15 or for loading cast bullets that have an Ogive that is very far forward compared to a SPitzer-type bullet.

The stoney point guage is kind of expensive for the little use it gets, but is very handy when you need it. Luckily its very easy to improvise one using nothing but a drill, a couple of taps, and about $5 worth of material from a hardware store. Here's one a friend of mine made up for me for my K-31s- it was actually cheaper for him to make than to send a fired case off to Stoney Point to have them drill/tap it with their proprietary threads.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/brimic/Picture080-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/brimic/Picture079.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/brimic/Picture078-1.jpg

[snuffy]

Afy, what I'm reading from your original post is that you think you HAVE to be 10 to 20 thousandths from the beginning to the rifling to have an accurate load. I don't agree. Most, if not all, hunting rifles have a LOT more that .020 from factory bullets to the leade. Some can be quite accurate with bullet jumps of a tenth of an inch.

I have an old Ruger M-77 in .280. The only bullet that I could load that touched the rifling while still being firmly in the case neck was a 175 round nose! With the right load using 140-150 grain bullets, it would shoot 1" groups, but no better. Bill Ruger hated lawsuits. So he demanded long leads in all his center fire rifles. Theory was "they're not gonna blow up one of my rifles by jamming a bullet into the rifling". And then sue me!.

That said, I usually check to see where the rifling begins when I get a new rifle. Since most of my guns are bought for hunting, I want them to feed from a magazine. So that means I'm going to be quite a way from the lead with my seating depth.

Neck tension is how much grip the neck has on a seated bullet. Normal FL dies first squeeze the neck down, then the expander button drags through to leave the neck undersized to tightly grip the bullet. Most say .003 under bullet diameter is ideal for most applications. The resistance you feel when seating a bullet is the bullet expanding the neck. The spring of the brass in the neck is what grips the bullet. If you feel that the neck tension is not enough, you can reduce the diameter of the expander button so it leaves the inside diameter of the neck smaller.

Several die manufactures make what's called bushing dies. They have no expander, but are FL dies with a set of bushings that size the neck in increments to eliminate the drag of the expander ball, and precisely control neck tension.