[Airman193SOS]

You know what I'm talking about. Take the newer Glocks for instance. Some of you might say that the looks of a Glock can only improve, but I find that the rail detracts from the appearance quite dramatically. And for what? It gives me a place to attach a flashlight? Right. Who carries a sub-compact with an attached flashlight?

The problem is not that they offer these frames. If that's what people want, the companies are merely serving a niche group. But I want a Glock 29, and I'll be stuffed if I'm going to buy a new one with rails (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102837658#PIC). In fact, I don't believe that I will ever buy a gun with one, except for the XD-9 I'm buying later this week, and that's only because they never made an XD without it and the price was unbeatable. I'll go to great lengths to avoid buying one. It's unnecessary, it increases the width and bulk in the front of the weapon, and it makes the gun ugly, like this one (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j235/schmeky/IMG_0244.jpg). A perfectly good gun, ruined by those fins and rails on the bottom of it, intended to attach a totally unnecessary accessory.

The companies should offer that as an option, not an imposition.

But that's just one man's opinion. Please feel free to disagree.

[DWARREN123]

I don't like/use them myself but my G23 has one.

[THE MACHINIST]

hip today ,gone tomorrow. it could be used for a scope mount on a glock. regular framed ones are notoriously difficult to scope and keep accurate .but hey its polymer and lightweight. my g-22 has one never used it in 2 years.

[Pat-inCO]

As long as there are holsters available to fit the "railed" guns, who cares if it has one or not? Nothing requires you to hang a flash light off of one, if yours has a rail, so why is there a problem? :confused:

[Airman193SOS]

It's the same problem that I have with the Pontiac Aztek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Aztek) or the Stata Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stata_Center): they're butt ugly.

The rails destroy the aesthetics of guns, and since which gun you opt to buy is as much an emotional decision as it is a functional one (witness the Glock and 1911 fanboys here on this very board), it annoys me to no end to see guns marred with stuff I didn't ask for. I'd no more buy a factory bubba'd gun than I would a Hi-Point- even if they work as they are supposed to they're ugly as sin.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

The purpose and utility rails serve vastly outweighs any emotional response. If you're buying a polymer weapon, chances are you're buying it to get the most function. That means including rails. I think the recent trend towards more functional weapons is a great one. I don't know how weapon frames are made or any of that, but I do know something of business. Gun companies provide what the most customers want, because that's how they sell more products and make money. Obviously the majority of people who buy polymer weapons are looking for more utility. Maybe it's too much of a hassle to make both railed and rail-less frames, maybe it's not. But it is what it is. I don't even own a weapon light or laser. But I'm still glad I have that option.

[Pilot]

Rails are dumb.

[Jenrick]

You tried sticking a flashlight on it and see if you like it? Heck if I could find someone who could put a rail on my P7M8, I'd do it (well and a good holster too). Being able to see what you're going to potentially shoot is a very good thing.

Admittedly being an LEO I've got a lot more use for a light then most people, but the statistically likely times I'm going to need my gun are the same as that of a civilian. In the dark.

Now I understand your saying a subcompact doesn't need it. Not going here or there, but you might try it and see.

-Jenrick

[loop]

Only good for special opps. I go to great lengths, including buying older guns, to avoid rails.

At least one smith has figured out that removing them is worthwhile - http://www.fordsguns.com/index2.htm

Learn how to hold a flashlight and a gun at the same time - or walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Wayne G.]

Whatever happened to the archaic idea of using a flashlight with the support hand rather than hanging it on the flip'n pistol?!

My Glock has them and it's no biggie. Kinda goes with the territory. However, I won't buy a 1911 with rails. Ain't happenin!

But I digress...

[lee n. field]

and that's only because they never made an XD without it and the price was unbeatable.

The HS-2000 (what the XD was before Springfield sold them) came without a rail.

Yes, rails are ugly.

It can't cost much (any?) more to make a plastic gun with rails than without, so until they go out of fashion or are technologically supersceeded (LED light in the guide rod?), I expect we'll have to live with them.

[XDKingslayer]

I see pick up trucks with tow hitches that people never use and I don't hear them whinning about it.

[armoredman]

My PO1 came with rails, never bothered me. I have yet to hang anything off of them, but like 4 wheel drive, handy to have if I need 'em. Having said that, with the preponderance of railed sidearms out there, it's a wonder there aren't more holsters for railed guns WITH doodads attached.

[Double Naught Spy]

LOL...

I'll be stuffed if I'm going to buy a new one with rails. In fact, I don't believe that I will ever buy a gun with one, except for the XD-9 I'm buying later this week, and that's only because they never made an XD without it and the price was unbeatable.

Rails are bad because they are ugly? You won't buy one. They are ugly...but you are getting one next week.

So much for credibility. more LOL

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Meh. Eye of beholder. I use a streamlight TLR 2 on a full-sized home defense pistol, but have no gadgets hanging there on carry pistols. To each his own. Sure they hurt the aesthetics some, but there will always be a FEW makers who leave them off, and you can always buy those guns, if you cannot get used to them.

[JohnRov]

I imagine that 90% of people with rails will never use them. You won't find me using a rail-mounted flashlight on my HD gun. The thought of pointing a gun at my sleeping daughter to check on her if I need to is somewhat less than appealing to me.

On a carry gun, the rail only serves to add bulk to the gun for me.

[tinygnat219]

Airman193SOS,

Ummm, why do you care about accessory rails? I don't have any use for them either, but it doesn't do anything to the handgun. There are a couple I am going to try putting a light on, but nothing more than that. So why the vehement disagreement with them?

[Airman193SOS]

So much for credibility. more LOL

The same credibility that your writing lends you by saying "LOL"?

If I could get the XD without the rail I would. But I can't. More's the pity.

Ummm, why do you care about accessory rails? I don't have any use for them either, but it doesn't do anything to the handgun. There are a couple I am going to try putting a light on, but nothing more than that. So why the vehement disagreement with them?

See Post #5.

[anythingshiny]

wha?

as a TOOL of self defense I want it to meet my needs, and I NEED a source of light at night. I like 2 hands on the gun as necessary, although I have a 6P as well if needed to check on the kids, a rail is a great piece of functionality.

appearance is..oh i dont know...maybe at the BOTTOM of the list when it comes to why I have a particular gun.

If I don't need the light on while carrying, then take it off. At night either put the light on if its your only weapon, or keep the light on if it is your "nightstand" only gun and not your daily carry.

jmho

[HGUNHNTR]

I think people complained about the first hammer with the claw attached for removing nails, saying it ruined the aesthetics of a simple beautiful tool.

[another okie]

Here you go. No rail, good condition. Why get agitated? There are used Glocks everywhere and it's hard to wear them out.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=102102000#PIC

[RustyShackelford]

I agree that some rails on popular weapons are not that great looking but they do serve a use. If you use these pistols for defense, CC, duty or military ops, then a light/laser aimer rail maybe of use in the future, ;).

I would like the idea of holding a bright white light on my weapon or being able to slide a red/green lasersight on the end to ID a threat rather than use both hands in an awkward way.

I would also say US gun companies should make a standard type rail like the 1913 not have 3/4 different types...:cuss:

I'd also use the smaller laser/light units on a sub-compact, ;). If you have a small pistol, a white light or laser aimer would help your aim and could deter a violent attack too, ;).

[M203Sniper]

I'm on your side buddy. Just as soon as Glock inc answers my 3 letters about single stack 9mm's and 45's that should be introduced anyDAY now I will be sure to mention that rails should be an option.
So with the original models in 6 calibers we get 6 more in single stacks, 6 with rails, 6 without and let's see....oh I'll just wait for the 5th generation glock 144's. :)

[NG VI]

I don't mind the rails on my guns, I actually think the rail on my USP 40 makes it look more finished, it is unobtrusive and really goes along with the rest of the pistol well, especially the front end of the slide. The rail on my Sigma, I don't know, either way makes no difference to me, again it would probably look less finished without it, but I don't attach anything to it.

However it would be criminal to put a rail on my CZ-97B, just wouldn't be right, the gun is already perfect and beautiful. The PCR I feel looks better than the P01 does, although they are both such outstanding pistols that the blockier front end of the P01 wouldn't bother me, and if I hadn't gotten the PCR I probably would have gotten the P01. Some guns don't have any business with a rail, especially not 1911s, except maybe a few commander length models.

[sevin8nin]

I happen to like to look of rails on most guns and don't see a problem with it. I don't have a problem finding holsters, but I also don't get holsters that can hold the weapon and an accessory.
I only occasionally put a a light on one of my railed pistols and park it on the night stand.

I understand your aesthetic dislike of railed firearms, but a lot of people like them, so they're going to stick around.

Just like I think big lifted trucks are retarded looking, I understand that big large looking vehicles are very popular and that there is demand for that, so I accept it.

It's definitely a bummer though that there aren't more options for non-railed weapons. It seems that a manufacturer could cover all of their bases by making a weapon in both railed and non-railed. The new sig 220 for instance. I think it's a great looking gun, and have no problem with the rail, but when I see older ones without the rail it definitely draws my attention.

[Matt-J2]

Eh, mixed bag for me. Some look ok, some don't. Course, S&W made a revolver with a rail, so they certainly aren't disappearing any time soon.

[Vern Humphrey]

They remind me of the "Fitz Special."

The idea was to make a revolver mo bettah by cutting away the front of the trigger guard. Many a fine old Colt or S&W M1917 was butchered that way.

Nowadays, people see one of those Fitz Specials on sale at a gun show, and they just walk away, shaking their heads.

[JoeSlomo]

Whatever happened to the archaic idea of using a flashlight with the support hand rather than hanging it on the flip'n pistol?!

I would rather use my support hand to support my pistol, a rail equipped pistol allows me to do just that.

I'm glad to see defensive pistols with this option.

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

i like rails. even though i never put anything on there, the percieved utility makes me smile. but (and like rosie odonell this is a huge butt) rails lead to bad habits. think about clearing a room or some other place one might need a pistol in the dark the whole idea is flawed because to use the rail mounted light you are breaking one of the 4 commandments ***do not point at anything you are not willing to destroy*** therefore rail mounted lights are bad, hand held lights are good. because even if you have a rail mounted light you should be using a handheld light so you aren't point your gun (during a stressful time) at something, or someone you shouldn't.

[ArmedBear]

If you don't want them, you can ignore them or even put a cover on them.

If you do want them, they'll save you an expensive trip to the gunsmith.

I haven't seen rails on a gun that I'd buy for its good looks, anyway.

I think everything should come with rails. Toasters, coffee mugs, gardening tools, barbecues, cell phones, whatever. Standardized mounting rails are a great idea. And I'm not even into "tacticool".

[tipoc]

Personal choice. Some find them "cool looking". I can't argue with that.

Light rails and such began as an option for SWAT teams, military spec ops units, etc. Because of this some civilians also wanted them so now they are ubiquitous.

They are useful for squad work, as is having laser mounts.

For the average shooter in a self defense piece I think they are not so useful and encourage shooters to violate one of the 4 rules. They also let folks know exactly where to shoot, gun mounted lights that is, not the rails per se.

tipoc

[ArmedBear]

Laser mounts, though, are a good idea.

Why pay $300+ to some company for a laser that will work with a particular gun?

Standardized rails mean standardized accessories, i.e. better prices.

I also think that bolt-action rifles should just come with good rails machined into the receiver. Why did I have to buy Warne mounts and screw them onto my hunting .30-06? This is another set of screws that can come loose, and if the gun doesn't come with iron sights, it's not like you won't be using scope mounts.:rolleyes:

[tipoc]

I also think that bolt-action rifles should just come with good rails machined into the receiver.

Ruger has done just this for years now. few others do as well.

I also don't see the need for a laser. But some do want them for some odd reason. To each their own.

tipoc

[ArmedBear]

I don't own a laser.

However, I've been at the range and watched a guy use one to keep nice, tight, fast groups on a silhouette target, from the hip, with a tiny pocket pistol. They do have a place on defensive firearms.

I have a Ruger with the Ruger rings. They're not standard, and I'm not overly impressed with them, but it's true, Ruger does machine mounts into their receivers.

AFAIK Ruger sold rifles without the feature until a few years ago; it seems they didn't sell too well. That says something. Buyers like built-in bases.

And as far as lights and the 4 rules, in the scenario I'd envision using one (nightstand gun at night), the light would be more likely to prevent a tragic shooting than to cause one.

[dstorm1911]

ya know maybe its cause I been dealin with guns for so d@mn long and have seen so many ADs while training officers and civilians but only an irresponsible jack@ss would use a gun mounted light in anything short of a known combat zone to identify a "threat" it pisses me off everytime I see a police officer with a gun mounted light using it to clear a residence of even worse a residential yard or alley etc.... sign of the times and just one indicator of how life is getting cheaper everyday.... the entire point of the handheld light in the support hand was so that you could verify a threat while still keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction yet ready should the threat turn out to actually be a threat and not an 8 year old kid or your partner!!

that rant ranted all of my poly guns have rails..... only one an XD 40 Tac ever gets used and does have a light on it when used as the nightstand gun.... I also live alone and on several acres with a 7' fence and security system, anyone inside my house at night is a badguy, when that same gun leaves the nightstand the light comes off, If I have to check my yard or perimeter at night..... the light comes off and is carried in the support hand so that it can be pointed at the trucks etc.. while the muzzle is safely pointed down not covering my neighbors homes with their children sleeping in their beds or their dogs/horses etc... ya know basic firearms safety guidelines which at once time folks ESPECIALLY police officers lived by its Rule #1 in fact but yet it gets suspended as soon as some jack@ss mounts a light to his weapon without the slightest thought.........

hint, a gun muzzle comes in my direction... even though I wasn't threat previously I will become one at that second and.... I will fire as your weapon muzzle coming my direction indicates legal intent on your part.... here in AZ thats good nough for our courts

[ArmedBear]

Well, I wouldn't even turn on the light unless I were ready to use the weapon.

I'm not a cop, and I don't anticipate "clearing" any houses but my own.

If it's dark out, you're in the house and we didn't invite you, then you are at a very high risk of getting shot -- the law says we can open fire at that point. The purpose of the light is to provide a last measure of safety, not just to see if there's someone in the house, but as one more last-ditch means by which someone who is actually not an intruder could be identified.

What is wrong with that?

Hunters follow a simple rule. A scope is only for aiming a rifle, not for glassing the countryside. I haven't read any posts that said that rifles should never have scopes because of the temptation to use them for scanning the area.

How is this different?

[AK103K]

Only good for special opps.
I guess none of y'all live in the country and use a handgun for yard and garbage can duty? :)

A railed pistol with a light has a lot of practical uses for all of us that understand their usefulness and choose to use them. If you dont like them, dont buy them. There are still plenty of guns out there without them.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Vern Humphrey - what were they trying to accomplish by cutting away the front of the trigger guard? You got a link to any examples of such an atrocity?

If it's dark out, you're in the house and we didn't invite you, then you are at a very high risk of getting shot

Lol, I think I found my new sig line - it's not complicated, is it, ArmedBear? :)

As I said above, only gun with a light on it is my home defense handgun (more precisely, ONE of my home defense handguns), and I live alone, cept for the dogs. If I managed to round up a wife or kids, I *may* have to re-think the light-on-gun thing, due to temptation to ID target. But heck, that light has enough side throw on it to ID stuff without pointing directly at it anyhow. I have two lights on HD guns - one handgun, and on one shotgun.

[Joe the Redneck]

Im anti rail and find them useless.

As for a flashlight, gun goes in the strong hand, light in the weakhand extended away from the body. That way if the BG shoots at the light, he womt hit your COM.

I thought everyone knew that.

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern Humphrey - what were they trying to accomplish by cutting away the front of the trigger guard? You got a link to any examples of such an atrocity?
I think they were trying to abolish common sense. I have heard of at least one case where an officer hit a man with his Fitz Special, and it bent the trigger guard, immoblizing the gun.

To see what one looked like, just google "Fitz special."

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Joe the Redneck - Haven't you heard? The modern tacticool method is to use the pistol with light in the strong hand, leaving your weak hand free to guard your body by deflecting bullets with one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/WONDER-WOMAN-brass-Bracelets-Custom-MADE_W0QQitemZ260218279096QQihZ016QQcategoryZ32768QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

OK Vern, found something on it:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/gunsmoke/0605/index.html

FitzGerald was a big fellow and cut out the front of the trigger guards in the belief that it would speed his acquisition of the trigger for quick DA shooting.


I guess a consequence of having thick fingers which are hard to quickly get inside the trigger guard? Oh, brother. :rolleyes:

[bdjansen]

Another vote "No" to rails from me. I hate how everything (not just guns) has to be packed with "features". Bleh. Lets keep things simple.

I have a Glock subcompact (G26) and there are no rails. Did Glock just come out with a new version that has them?

[Vern Humphrey]

FitzGerald was a big fellow and cut out the front of the trigger guards in the belief that it would speed his acquisition of the trigger for quick DA shooting.

I guess a consequence of having thick fingers which are hard to quickly get inside the trigger guard? Oh, brother.
The mistake was in selling them to ordinary people.:barf:

[Matt-J2]

The G29and G30(10mm, .45acp) have them, the other subcompacts do not. According to the Glock website, anyway.

[RancidSumo]

The worst is when they ruin a 1911 with them.

[AK103K]

As for a flashlight, gun goes in the strong hand, light in the weakhand extended away from the body. That way if the BG shoots at the light, he womt hit your COM.
Thats soooooo 1960's "The FBI"ish. :)

Some of you need to come into this century and learn how a gun mounted light really works.

Next thing you know, the purists will be crying about night sights too. :rolleyes:

[Double Naught Spy]

As for a flashlight, gun goes in the strong hand, light in the weakhand extended away from the body. That way if the BG shoots at the light, he womt hit your COM.

I thought everyone knew that.

What happens when you need both a light and the weak hand for some other task like opening a door, putting pressure on a wound, controlling your spouse or child, etc.?

[MCgunner]

I don't own any. I even saw a tacticool picante rail on a Smith and Wesson revolver the other day at a match. :puke:

[makarovnik]

Rails are good. If you don't like them then don't bolt anything on to them, simple.

[Mortech]

I live in a very rural spot , I NEED a rail on my handgun at times . Ever try to open a gate in the dark with you pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other ?

[ClickClickD'oh]

The mall ninjas are out tonight I guess. Not only does mounting a light on your weapon violate the most basic rule of firearms safety but it also gives the BG a nice kill shot on you. Think about it for half a second. Stand as if you were aiming your firearm. Now, imagine where your light would be, and the trajectory a bullet would take fired at your light. Right through your face or neck. Not a pleasent place to catch a bullet.

That's why the previously mentioned technique, sometimes called monkey lighting, is for. It not only confuses oponents as to your center of mass, but also to your distance. It's almost impossible to judge the distance to a single point of light in the dark so the mind often confuses tall and close.

If you are having trouble with gates, doors or fences while using a handheld light, get something small like a 6P or stinger. You can take that 6P and place it between your shooting hand ring finger and pinkie while you manipulate objects if you need an empty hand and light on target at the same time. With a bit of practice it's an easy and quick transition.

That said, looking at my inventory of pistols, I do have a few with rails. Never gave a though to putting anyting on them though.

Managed to survive serval years on patrol with a sidearm and a 6P

[Eightball]

I can see rails being handy on HD-ish type pistols, or for a dedicated HD pistol that someone would be using primarily one-handed (while the other hand opens doors, etc).

Personally, I think this:
it also gives the BG a nice kill shot on you.
would be the best reason to NOT have a light. If they ever came out with some form of NVG that weren't expensive as hell, and an IR light to mount where the BG couldn't see you, then sure. Or a NV sight, or somesuch, and the same concept. But that's just me.

Though, if there weren't the tax stamp for mounting a vert foregrip on a handgun, then yeah, I can see some "stupid" fun being had with rails. But for now, I prefer the "option" idea.

[RONSTAR]

If they ever came out with some form of NVG that weren't expensive as hell,
They did years ago got one for like 200 dollars if you want it cheaper than that your a penny pincher. LOL

[loop]

They are useless except as a squad weapons.

I'd be much happier to see more mag pouches made with pouches for quality flashlights. It took me months to find one that fit my double stacks and a 6P. Paid a darn high price for it as well.

Virtually anyone who carries a gun for SD should learn proper flashlight technique. I can snap into the Harries technique in a heartbeat. I also know enough to hold the light as far from my body as possible when I am just "looking around."

The flashlight should be a separate weapon/tool. It should be used as such.

I like the idea of the BG using a gun-mounted light. Almost as much as I like the idea of them holding their gun sideways. It gives me an advantage.

As far as living in the country and trying to open a gate with a pistol in one hand a flashlight in the other, I don't get it. I live in the country. The pistol only comes out when there is a threat. When there is a known threat I don't usually spend time fiddling around with gates while making sure the threat knows exactly where I am and what I'm doing.

In all the comments here one thing keeps coming through - I like rails, but I wouldn't holster a gun with something attached to the rails. Um, what are you going to do? Ask the guy with the knife to wait while you attach a flashlight to your gun so you can see his smiling face while you shoot at him?

It's a marketing gimmick and nothing more. They're useless in almost every real life situation and when they are not useless they may very well be dangerous. Come at me with one and I'll shoot at the light. Shoot at my light and you'll be aiming three feet to my left.

[AK103K]

The mall ninjas are out tonight I guess. Not only does mounting a light on your weapon violate the most basic rule of firearms safety but it also gives the BG a nice kill shot on you. Think about it for half a second. Stand as if you were aiming your firearm. Now, imagine where your light would be, and the trajectory a bullet would take fired at your light. Right through your face or neck. Not a pleasent place to catch a bullet.
This is the usual response from those who dont understand how to properly use the light mounted on the gun, or any other light for that matter.

For one, you dont have to point the light at the target to identify it. The lights are bright enough to light the whole room, even when aimed down towards the floor.

Second, that same bright light will blind anyone flashed with it, even in broad daylight. If you would even allow any return fire, it would be not be aimed.

If you didnt choose to instantly shoot, you most certainly would not remain in place where the light was last seen, but have moved off to the side where you can do it all again, and the next time, there will be noise and a somewhat different flash accompanying it, if you choose to use the light at all. You already know where the target is, your night sights will point the way to it if you choose not to light it up.

Most of the high power, hand held and gun mounted lights are weapons in there own right and can be used to disorient and confuse if you understand how and when to use them.

[SuperNaut]

Choices are bad!

I can totally understand the aesthetic argument against rails on 1911's and 92FS' etc. Agree? Meh. Understand? Yeah. But an aesthetic argument about rails on poly guns seems a little, um, superfluous?

As far as functionality is concerned, how do you feel about lanyard loops, or skeletonized triggers, or non-stock grips, or hammer shrouds, or dear me; color?:uhoh:

Burn the witch!

All this stuff has limited functionality, but somebody wants it. Dammit, back in my day we had 14# triggers made out of rusty razor blades and we liked it.

The market will sort it out.

[leadcounsel]

I happen to prefer the look of a gun with rails. So it's all about opinion.

And, it's more versatile and adds resale value.

Besides, have you tried it. A rail light is very handy.

[ClickClickD'oh]

This is the usual response from those who dont understand how to properly use the light mounted on the gun, or any other light for that matter. Yup, that's it... just don't know what I'm doing...

For one, you dont have to point the light at the target to identify it. The lights are bright enough to light the whole room, even when aimed down towards the floor.

Second, that same bright light will blind anyone flashed with it, even in broad daylight. If you would even allow any return fire, it would be not be aimed.Well, the first statment kinda negates the second doesn't it. If you are pointing off target you aren't blinding anything are you? But you sure as heck are illuminating yourself with splash illumination, making the badguys job even easier.

Who doesn't know how to use a flashlight again?

And no, if stupid people can stare into the sun, your flashlight isn't going to stop them from shooting at you.

You already know where the target is, your night sights will point the way to it if you choose not to light it up.
So then you have some special type of night sights that illuminate targets for you? Really? That's cool, which brand?

Most of the high power, hand held and gun mounted lights are weapons in there own right and can be used to disorient and confuse if you understand how and when to use them.An occasional and incidental reaction. Don't count on it to save you.

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

what if you need to open a gate or a door??? really? well if you are walking through a door or a gate and don't see anyone or hear anyone then chances are you can probably holster your pistol (well you couldn't because there is a light attached). if i do see or hear someone i would want whatever cover/concealment is available so i wouldn't be going outside the door or fence to ask if they want to be friends. i can't speak for eveyone but i use my weapons for personal defense, not offense. typically i would retreat as far as i can before i would try to shoot someone. maybe you have different priorities, but im not going to point a gun at someone who wants my dvd player.

[Matt-J2]

I've found that in my home, holding a flashlight at all illuminates the room(s) enough that the bad guy can see you no matter how you hold the light*. I've been in other homes/situations where that holds true to a lesser extent or not at all.



*If it's a decently bright flashlight. I have one of those micro Maglights that barely illuminates itself, much less anything near it. I also have a small light with 14 LEDs that could darn near be substituted for the lamps I use to light the apt at night. Even pointed at the floor it's bright enough the BG can, at worst, see your whole silhouette.

[saltydog452]

I don't own a railed sidearm...yet. I 'spect I will eventually.

A sidearm, flashlight, and glasses are a bit much to deal with at midnight-dark-thirty.

Would'nt wanna tote one around, but it do make sense.

Most of us are resistant to change.

Having both hands on the sidearm wouild seem to be an advantage to having one hand of the sidearm and the other on a light source.

salty

[redneckrepairs]

I Personally have no use for a rail on a handgun , and in fact of all my current handguns none have a rail ( not because a rail is a deciding factor in to get or not get a handgun , just happenstance ). Back in the 80s I learned several techniques to effectively use a handgun and a flashlight that still serve me well , in fact even better today than then due to the same progression of light technology that made rail mounted lights possible , Lights now are brighter , smaller , and lighter than the old maglights we used then . Rails are fine , and lights on them used properly are fine , however i do ask how you are going to get the utility of a light source without pointing your pistol at something/someone you quite possibly don't care to shoot . IMHO too many rail mounted lights get used as a spotlight on a pistol whereby illumination takes a natural level of importance ( due to our desire to See ) over common firearms safety. In some " niche" applications a railed light on a handgun, rifle , or shotgun is a fine thing assuming the user has the discipline to use it properly . In other cases it serves to point your gun at whatever you look at .

[AK103K]

Yup, that's it... just don't know what I'm doing...
Hey, your the one advocating a technique that I wasnt even aware they were still teaching these days. Do you use it standing in place with your FBI crouch too?

Well, the first statment kinda negates the second doesn't it. If you are pointing off target you aren't blinding anything are you? But you sure as heck are illuminating yourself with splash illumination, making the badguys job even easier.
Nice try. My point was the light is bright enough that you dont have to point the gun directly at the target, if its to scary a thing for you.(seems to be for many) I wasnt advocating doing so. When the light is activated, I'm very confident that you wont be seeing anything but a brilliant white ball, especially if your eyes were adjusted to the dark, when the light flashes on/off. If you are in fact the target, there will be a couple more flashes and bangs coming from slightly different location than the first flash a split second later. There might be more light too, or maybe there wont.

So then you have some special type of night sights that illuminate targets for you? Really? That's cool, which brand?
I already know where the target is, and while the target is trying to figure out just where I am, I'm now following your advice( just for the sake of it here) and not back lighting myself with (supposed) splash illumination and I'm just shooting it. Those three little glowing green balls tell me just where the rounds are going. Unless the "can you hear me now?" boy and all his friends just popped in in the last half second, I feel confidant I know who is getting shot.

An occasional and incidental reaction. Don't count on it to save you.
More than occasional, I've flashed more than a few "capable" people, in broad daylight, followed by a quick "attack", and they were disoriented enough, that I had plenty of time to pretty much do as I wished. If you doubt it, have someone do it to you and see how you make out. Better yet, try it in the dark.


Most of us are resistant to change.
This is the biggest issue here.

Of all the people who are against using a gun mounted light, how many have actually used one to any extent, if at all?


I also see a lot of narrow mindedness here. Like a map, compass, and GPS all go together as a package, so do lights,(both mounted and hand held) night sights, and guns all go together, if your serious about things and want an edge.

It seems like specific use scenarios are being put forth trying to make a point, when the whole big picture is being ignored.

Why is it that the light is either on the gun, or in your hand? Why dont you, and/or whats wrong with, having both available?

Theres nothing wrong with "some" of the other techniques, and I'm not saying the light on the gun is a replacement for them, but they certainly have a valid place in all of this, even if its only to have the light and gun together when you need it most. I know instantly where my gun is with the light attached, in the dark. My night sights are like a night light to it. If all I have time to grab is just that, I have what I need and dont have to fumble around for anything else if the need is urgent.

You also dont have to have the light on the gun all the time, nor do you necessarily want it there all the time. They pop right on and off, and easily fit in a pocket or on your belt if you feel the need to have it. Or, you can just go with the one in your pocket. Options are a nice thing, and its nice to have them available.

If you take the time to learn when and how to use them properly, you'll probably have a whole different outlook on them. It just sounds like a lot of people have no real experience with them and are just blowing them off as a novelty, which they are not.

[ArmedBear]

Not only does mounting a light on your weapon violate the most basic rule of firearms safety

HOW?

As I said, it's like a scope on a rifle. If you use it to glass for game, you are violating the most basic rule of firearms safety. If you use it to aim your rifle you are not.

Yes, if you use a light to look around the house, then you are violating that rule and asking to get shot if there is an intruder. But if you turn on the light momentarily only when taking a shot, it can enhance safety by allowing positive ID of a target, and it shouldn't invite a shot at your face.

Down the street from my house, someone shot a roommate last year. I'd say that a light on the gun, used to make a final identification of the target, is a safety device, not a violation of safety.

It's all in how you use it.

And I don't have one.

[tipoc]

I said earlier that I don't care for lights, etc. on my handguns. I also don't try to discourage others from using them though. Neither do I feel the need to dis someone who does. If a fella feels comfortable with a light on their gun then use it. Though I think for the individual (as distinct from military or leo use) it's a bit of a gimmick.

Why don't I like them?:

They add bulk to a gun.

If I need a light to see up on a roof, under a truck, behind a bush, etc. I prefer to have a handheld light which allows me to turn or angle my wrist to point the light where needed, etc.

I prefer to have my gun hand ready to use in another direction than where I am pointing my light if need be.

I prefer not to point my piece at things I am not willing to destroy. The gun mounted light requires that you do this if you use the light.

All good lights have a pressure sensitive switch in addition to the standard on/off switch. You push and hold the pressure sensitive switch , the light comes on, release pressure, the light goes off. Allows for a quick flash of light. A good gun mounted light has a remote pressure switch for this use as well as the standard on/off. I'm a simple minded guy and under stress I don't need to be concerned with using my trigger finger to work two switches.

I can easily place a hand held light on the ground or a table to illuminate something while my gun is still in my hand.

For these reasons and a few others I don't feel the need for a gun mounted light.

Lasers may have some usefulness in training for some. I've shot as well as I need for 30 years without them and have no need. Generations of shooters also had no need.

tipoc

[Ltlabner]

Golly...I hardly even noticed them on my G23. My 2nd gen G22 doesn't have them and I never really noticed a difference in the two weapons due to rails/non rails.

Not sure how they "add weight" since they they take away material to mould the rail on the Glocks.

[VirginiaShooter]

The subcompact Glocks don't have rails. Or at least my G26 doesn't.

[Defensory]

Posted by ClickClickD'oh:
The mall ninjas are out tonight I guess. Not only does mounting a light on your weapon violate the most basic rule of firearms safety but it also gives the BG a nice kill shot on you. Think about it for half a second. Stand as if you were aiming your firearm. Now, imagine where your light would be, and the trajectory a bullet would take fired at your light. Right through your face or neck. Not a pleasent place to catch a bullet.

First off, I'd like to state that I personally do NOT have lights on any of my weapons.

However, I do know for a fact that both Massad Ayoob and Clint Smith both have tactical lights on some of their firearms. Ayoob has one on his primary carry gun. They train some of their students on the use of tactical lights.

Are you suggesting that Ayoob and Smith are "mall ninjas"?! I disagree with both of them on a few things, but they are both recognized experts in the field of armed self-defense.

[borntwice]

I don't really mind the accessory rail on my CZ 75 P-01. If I had had the opportunity to buy locally, I would have perhaps purchased a PCR, instead, without the accessory rail. In any case, the P-01 was available locally, and I was able to handle it before purchasing. I am a "happy camper".

The nice thing about the accessory rail is that for home defense, I can attach a light to the firearm. At night, that is a definite advantage.

[Dravur]

I think the OP has something here.... Manufacturer should be willing to make 1000 different versions just to make that one person happy. Why, there cant be any costs associated with such a plan. <happy happy joy joy>

sooooo.... Glock should offer each model in rail and non rail, in each of seventeen different colors and just for fun, they should offer them with different fonts for the writing on the frame.... just for people who like Arial over Times New Roman....

The reason they put the rails on there is to give the customers who want the rails the option of having them..... the downside is they hork off some fogey who thinks that rails must have an evil hidden agenda involving McGruff the Crime Dog and a white rabbit....

So.... to sum up, a company sells all frames with rails to keep manufacturing costs low and pleases a majority of the people actually buying guns or they can cater to the one fogey who isnt about to let a silly rail interfere in his preconceived notions....which "group" do they choose?


Oh, and for those who think a rail mounted light is only used by Mall ninjas and Aliens from the planet pluto.....well... I have yet to see a person with three hands... one for the gun... one for the light and possibly one for the ham sandwich... or maybe a set of cuffs? Hmmmm, perhaps there is a use for them after all...

Maybe there is a Santa Claus, after all!

[makarovnik]

Anybody need a flashlight? Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DZHtrYlLhU

[Pilot]

Glock should offer each model in rail and non rail

CZ does it why can't Glock and some of the other companies. CZ offers many models without a rail including the 75B, 75SA, 85B, 85 Combat, Compact, Semi-Compact, 97B, 83, RAMI and more. They also over a rail on the P-01, and SP-01, so people can choose if they want a rail. Having a rail on a CCW piece is just DUMB.

[buzz_knox]

Having a rail on a CCW piece is just DUMB.

Why? Have you ever tried it? A Glock 19 with an X200 conceals pretty well with an IWB. Personally, I like having the capacity for a light on a CCW weapon because that's often the same weapon that goes on the nightstand.

[MICHAEL T]

rails are for trains Not pistols I won't buy a pistol with them.
Flashlight in off hand works fine

[TriggerMan]

I don't much care for the looks of rails either, I think it detracts from the looks of a nice metal framed gun, but most polymer pistols are butt ugly anyway like my XD9 service so the rail doesn't detract too much, but it does shoot great and that's what really maters.

[ClickClickD'oh]

However, I do know for a fact that both Massad Ayoob and Clint Smith both have tactical lights on some of their firearms. Ayoob has one on his primary carry gun. They train some of their students on the use of tactical lights.

Are you suggesting that Ayoob and Smith are "mall ninjas"?! I disagree with both of them on a few things, but they are both recognized experts in the field of armed self-defense.
Last time I checked Mr. Ayoob specifically problems associated with having a weapon mounted light (combat handgunnery 5th edition p196)

Or, you can read another article of Mr. Ayoobs: http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob71.html

Beware of doing a building search with the light mounted on the gun. It requires great coolness and discipline

Now, if you believe that you have the "coolness and discipline" of a person such as Mr. Ayoob, I guess you are a step above most of the gun carrying individuals I have met including myslef... who I'd rather kept the light operating finger function as far away as possible from the trigger operating finger function.

[AK103K]

I would tend to agree with you if all you do is argu...I mean talk about it on the internet and dont practice what you preach.

I will disagree if you take the time to learn what your talking about and practice on a fairly regular basis. Practice is the key to any of the techniques, on the gun or not, and its just as easy to shoot using the Harries technique, (you know, the one where the light "isnt" on the gun, but is "still" pointing where the gun is) as it is to shoot with one on the gun. Trigger (and nerve) control is crucial either way, and practice reinforces that.

If you want decent practice either way, a good airsoft gun works wonders and nobody dies for real. You get to practice on live targets, in your house, or anywhere for that matter. The little "sting" does reinforce the point though, as does your wifes response later on when stepping on those little white balls in her bare feet in the dark. :)

My M-3 X goes right on my P229 gas guns, so its just like using the real thing.

[Harold Mayo]

Rails are here to stay, folks. No fad. I hate them but they are a far better way to hold a light than with the other hand.

As for carrying a gun with a light? Plenty of people do it as the holsters that are out there for it show.

Yeah, they look like crap but they are here to stay.

[BikerRN]

I only have one gun with a Rail on the bottom for a light, and I don't hang a bullet aiming device from it.

If you want to be killed hang a light from your gun is my opinion. Me, I like living, and I'm "old school" so I hold my light in my weak hand away from my body.

BikerRN

[Harold Mayo]

Opinions are nice but the fact is that LE have been using guns with accessory rails and mounted lights for years as has the military (but with long guns). Only on the internet have I heard of anyone who believes that it is a bad thing. Most flashlight techniques put the gun next to the light, too. The technique of holding a flashlight out away from your body is kinda dated.

Also, clearing a building with a light ON or OFF of a gun requires great "coolness and discipline"...or a lot of ignorance and foolhardiness.

Rails are here to stay, at least until cheap and compact night vision is available or lights are incorporated INTO the guns. I probably hate the look of them on a gun as much or more than most but facts are facts.

[countryrebel]

I like the rails, all my house guns have lights mounted on them. Nice to have one hand free if I need it and not holding onto a flashlight. Also I like to have both hands on my firearm for better control. Second if you hit someone with the bright light they are not going to be able to see ****. How many have actually practiced holding a flashlight in one hand away from your body and a gun in the other firing at a target while moving? I do not know about you but I have tried it and it is not easy IMO. I will take a weapon mounted light period.

[Defensory]

In the Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery (6th edition, 2007), Massad Ayoob specifically mentions and recommends several different tactical lights for handguns, and includes photographs of some of the more popular ones.

Mr. Ayoob apparently has NO problem with shooters having tactical lights on their weapons, and has trained thousands of people in their proper use.

To state or suggest that anybody who has or wants a tactical light on their handgun is a "mall ninja", is quite foolish and "low road".

[ClickClickD'oh]

I will disagree if you take the time to learn what your talking about and practice on a fairly regular basis. Okay, in your honest opinion... What percentage of the people buying firearms models specifically with rails and getting weapon lights do you think are actually seeking out advanced training?

50%?

Hell, I doubt 50% of the people in this thread opting for rails get the proper training, and we are a slightly more training motivated group as a whole compared to the rest of society.

25% of the guys slinging rails maybe?

10%?

Heck, I'll be generous and say that maybe, on a lucky day 5% of the people out there slining rails actually have any sort of training on how to properly use their equipment.

Heck, I noticed you came storming out of the barn pretty quick to imply I apparenlty have no clue what I'm doing with a firearm. I have to wonder why you suppose all the guys supporting rails all do.

I'm not going to get into a internet genital measuring contest with you about what I do and don't know about weapons employment or what training and experience I have. Doesn't matter. You've apparently decided I'm some sort of imbecilic neophyte who has outgrown my britches and decided to play with the big boy, high speed low drag guys. Heck, maybe the truth is that me and my trusty 6P have just become to archaic to play anymore. Who knows, maybe I've gone senile. Just do me a favor. Next time you are out at the shooting range or gun store, ask the people you see with rails what formal training they have had to use them.

And yes Defensory, Mr. Ayoob (as I had mentioned) does support the use of weapon lights. He also teaches a mighty fine class and as you mentioned trains people to use them. I want you also to consider what percentage of people actually bother to attend one of Mr. Ayoobs classes. I seriously doubt that Mr. Ayoob would ever recommend that someone who has never had any formal training sling a weapon light. I could be wrong though.

Because when it all comes down to it, it's easier to screw up in a non-reversable catostrophic manner with a weapon light then it is with a handheld... and the persons most likely to mess up in a non-reversable catostrophic manner are the ones without formal training. Put those two together and you get a not so very pretty picture. As outdated as some may think hand held techniques are, the are still techniques.. which require actual honest to god training.

As for "mall ninja" being low road... Anyone remember what "mall ninja" refers to? All gear, no training. Again, how many of you rail guys have been to one of Mr. Ayoobs classes? If the title fits I say...

[Caimlas]

You can blame Hollywood for this little firearm defect - Hollywood and gun magazines. For whatever reason, they all hang doodad **** off the guns on the magazine covers, and ever HSLD character in a film is all 'pimped out' with lasers and lights.

It's pretty frustrating when you want a plain, functional, and sleek firearm. :(

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay, in your honest opinion... What percentage of the people buying firearms models specifically with rails and getting weapon lights do you think are actually seeking out advanced training?

Okay, in your honest opinion, what percentage of people buying firearms actually seek out lethal force training? 1%? 2%?

I am a lot more concerned with the large number of folks who own firearms for defense being able to use those firearms proficiently than I am with worrying about whether or not a few with weapon lights who haven't gotten weapon light training.

Okay, in your honest opinion, how many folks who use flashlights with firearms seek out advancing training for flashlight use with firearms?

I assure you. The weapon light and lack of training for it isn't the problem...and Ayoob is just one of very many instructors who teach the use of lights in lethal force situations.

[AK103K]

Heck, I'll be generous and say that maybe, on a lucky day 5% of the people out there slining rails actually have any sort of training on how to properly use their equipment.
How many people without rails are getting or have gotten any training with a light?

How many of them actually practice?

How often do you practice with your gun and light?

Have you actually practiced and shot with a light on the gun to know whether or not its effective, or is it you just dislike the idea?

Regardless what or how you intend to use your gun and light, I would hope you would get some sort of training with it or at least practice up on your own. Doing so would show you what works best for you and what is lacking.

Heck, maybe the truth is that me and my trusty 6P have just become to archaic to play anymore. Who knows, maybe I've gone senile. Just do me a favor. Next time you are out at the shooting range or gun store, ask the people you see with rails what formal training they have had to use them.
Should I put you on the list that has none?

[Rogue6]

That was a good point that Mr. Ayoob made in regards to a reflexive or sympathetic squeeze that presses the trigger rather than the light switch when you meant to do the latter. It's not such an issue on long guns since it's usually the off hand that triggers the light, the switch for which is generally mounted on the forestock or a vertical grip. I'm not sure what's offered now, but it seems like it might make sense to have a small switch extension mounted on the front of the trigger guard for the off hand, if you want to put a rail-mounted light on your pistol.

[MikeNice]

Rogue6, I saw a combo light/laser that had a rocker switch for the off hand. I can not remember the company, but I thought it was awesome. Rock the switch forward and you had a flash light. Rock it backwards and you get a laser.

I would love to have something like that on my HD gun. It is a great idea for smaller guns and it makes the attachment usable in day light or the dark.

I would love to have a flashlight on my HD weapon. That means I can use the other hand for carrying my cellphone or securing family members.

[valorius]

I like the accessory rail trend so much i had one custom installed on my HK P7:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/77f92297.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/m21sniper/Spoons/913b9a01.jpg
I think lasers and lights have their places on modern firearms (the best use for a pistol mounted light being an emergency situation where a firearm could be needed, but you are not actually gun fighting with it- and you need light to navigate.) , and i wanted the option to put them on my primary home defense sidearm, so i added a rail. As far as i know, mine is the only rail equipped P7 in the world. I kind of like that... :)

I imagine that 90% of people with rails will never use them. You won't find me using a rail-mounted flashlight on my HD gun. The thought of pointing a gun at my sleeping daughter to check on her if I need to is somewhat less than appealing to me.
One touch switch to remove light from gun, check on sleeping daughter with light, snap light back onto gun, return to doing whatever it was you were doing that got you out of bed in the dark with a handgun to begin with.

I agree that lights aren't appropriate for all uses, and they do look bulky and ungainly, but they have their uses.

[W.E.G.]

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/benEzra-keepTactical.jpg

[tipoc]

This thread is over two years old. Why revive it?

One way to think of a thread is as an ongoing conversation being held between friends and co-workers over a beer or coffee. You're sitting there talking. Someone may wander off, someone else join the conversation, a person can stray a bit then come back. It's a conversation on the internet so a few days can go by if the conversation is a good one. But if you let weeks, months or years go by and then take up the conversation as if it had been ongoing all that time...well you do folks a dis-service. Do you expect people to read through all the posts from the start? Do you expect that no one may have changed their minds?

If you have a point to make I encourage you to begin a new thread. It's a lot more respectful and polite.

tipoc

[Dookie]

I only have one gun with a Rail on the bottom for a light, and I don't hang a bullet aiming device from it.

If you want to be killed hang a light from your gun is my opinion. Me, I like living, and I'm "old school" so I hold my light in my weak hand away from my body.

BikerRN so now lights kill people? I though only guns killed people.

[ljnowell]

My gen3 g21 has a rail on it, and I love it. When it makes it into nightstand rotation I attach a tac light to it. I am disabled, and lots of times I need my second hand to help stable myself and maintain balance. That little rail helps alot.

[Sam1911]

If it's important enough to revive a 2-year old thread to debate, it's important enough to start a new thread over.