[Alan Fud]

What caliber would be a good choice for a gun if you wanted it to: Be concealable
Effective against both 2-legged creatures as well as at least semi-effective against four-legged creatures (Fox, wolf, mountain lion, bear, etc.). Note: I purposely left the .357magnum off the list because I can't effectively shoot a J-frame loaded with hot .357magnum loads and I can't effective conceal a K-frame.

[WonderNine]

9

[Nightcrawler]

None of the above, if Bear are on the list. For that you'd want 10mm or .357 Magnum, or .45 Super.

[chaim]

I'm with Nightcrawler. As soon as you put bear on your list nothing in the poll is suitable (and I think I'd want as much power as I could get against mountain lion too, just in case).

For both concealability (and assuming some degree of controlability) plus ability against large and dangerous animals there are only two choices I can think of:

4" medium-frame .357mag. Short enough barrel for relatively easy concealability and long enough to get some velocity out of the round.

4" Taurus Tracker in .41mag. Medium frame revolver so you could carry and conceal it and .41mag is a good, powerful round for woods use.

Here on the east coast with the relatively lightweight black bears you get then maybe a 10mm will be ok if you really want an auto caliber.


Edit:
Oh, seeing your note that you can't conceal a K-frame then my suggestion is two guns for carry. One for concealment and one for woods use. The only other suggestion is the Taurus 415. It is a medium frame gun but it has only a 2" barrel so you may be ok concealing it (though with a 2" ported barrel you'll lose a lot of the .41mag velocity/power).

[Ala Dan]

I voted for the .45 ACP, and here's why:

With the correct load and proper shot placement,
the .45 ACP works well on two legged perp's.
Plus the fact, I'm not expecting to run into any of the
four legged variety; during a routine tour of duty!:D :uhoh:

* FootNote- if I go looking for trouble from the four
legged variety, I would arm myself with at least a
.357 magnum; if not a .44 magnum.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[denfoote]

I originally voted for 9mm, but then saw the "bear" in your post!!
The gun/caliber you want is the Glock 20 with the 6" hunting barrel, loaded with any of the hot 200gr loadings!!! That will fit the bill for BOTH two and four legged critters!! If you want to conceal the beast, get the G29!!! ;)

Hey, if it's good enough for the 'Nuge, it's good enough for you!! :D

[Alan Fud]

Okay ... maybe take the bear and the mountain lion out of the picture http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/vb/images/smilies/rolleye-.gif

[Tamara]

Then why would you need to be shooting at foxes and wolves? They pretty much stay invisible when people are around.

[Mal H]

Perzactly! If you 'need' to shoot a fox, then it is probably rabid and any of those calibers will work. However, I've heard that a rabid animal has a little more 'life' in them, so shot placement is even more important.

All of the calibers are easily concealable. It depends entirely on the handgun itself and the holster system, etc.

[Alan Fud]

I'm not a country boy. I didn't grow up in the big city but I always had city water / sewer -- NOT well water and we always had street lights where we lived.

I recently moved to the hills of PA where my nearest neighbor is more than a football field length away. The next house after that is barely visible. There are no street lights and at night everything is pitch black for as far as the eye can see.

We've had a number of people come to the house (guy delivering the 'fridge, cable guy, telephone guy, etc.) and I started up conversations with most of them and this is what I was able to put together ...

Coyotes are VERY common in this area and some can reach up to 70 pounds. Wolves are not that common although some have been spotted along with foxes. Black bear and even mountain lion, while not common, have been spotted from time to time in the area.

That said/learned, I figured that I better adjust my CCW to take into consideration four-legged creatures as well as two-legged ones. I've got compact 9mm's, .45ACP's, .40S&W's, .38/.357's, etc. I normally carry based on my mode of dress. If deep concealment is required, I carry a snubbie. If I'm carrying in a holster, it's likely an all-steel compact 1911. If it's in a waist band, then it's an alloy frame compact 9mm. Etc.

However, if one of these calibers is better suited against four legged attackers, then I can modify my mode of dress without too much difficulty if it buys me better protection.

That is the goal behind this thread. To learn from others who might have more knowledge in this area than I do, which CALIBER might be better suited against any or all of the four legged creatures that I mentioned.

Took out the garbage last week. The walk from my house to the curb, took me out into the darkness ... as in almost pitch black. As I was walking there with the garbage bag listening to all of these strange animal noises, I was wondering if I might be actually walking toward wolf or a bear or a mountain lion or whatever without even knowing about it.

I was armed with my Para C7.45LDA (shown on the right below) with eight rounds of .45ACP ...
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f108.jpg
... and the thought kept running through my head whether or not I might be better armed with eight rounds of 9mm from my Smith & Wesson 3913TSW (shown on the left above) since both guns are about the same size but the 9mm penetrates better and MAYBE that is what would be needed instead of the .45ACP or maybe I might be better off with one of my guns chambered for .40S&W instead.

I know that ultimately, grabbing my S&W 1006 with ten rounds of 10mm would give me better protection but if I want to stick with my compact CCW's that I normally carry, which CALIBER is the best choice?

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

With respect to the bear, I would make the controvercial statement that your either have to get bigger, like .44 magnum, or smaller, like 7.62 Tokarev. While a small, fast ball round may have a little less energy than say .45acp, it at least stands a greater chance of penetrating a fair amount in a tough skinned animal.

I am by no means advocating hunting bear with a .30 caliber pistol. I just think a small diameter bullet moving at high velocity has a better chance than a wide heavy bullet of similar power and recoil.

It's even possible that hot FMJ 9mm or .357 Sig would work better than .45 on a bear. There's no such thing as overpenetration when the animal is four feet wide.

[happy old sailor]

Mr. Fud, you may need a good flashlight more than a handgun.

i, too, live way out with no close neighbors. critters see in the dark, i do not. so, before stepping off the porch i sweep the area with a light, with handgun in holster. if there is a disturbance, i have a million cp spotlight in one hand and a 41/44 mag in the other. bear or lion, i'm going back in the house for some real firepower.

actually, stepping on a snake or one of my bug eating yard toads is more of a cnocern.

BTW, you have a pair of beauties there. i confess to envy. either should take care of anything but the big stuff.

back on track, i voted for the .45 as i have considerable faith in that round and the 1911. sometimes tho, it is just not big enough.

[chaim]

OK, getting the situation I have thought about a few ideas (usual disclaimer, this is purely theoretical, I don't live in a carry state and haven't actually carried and I'm not a hunter, so grain of salt and all that)...

I'm guessing that the deep carry is when you are likely to be in a more populated area. Don't change that, animals usually try to avoid people and you probably won't encounter too many in town.

As for coyotes I've talked to people who hunt them with .22s so I doubt that any caliber suitable for self-defense will be insufficient.

If bear or mountain lion are a possibility they will be more likely when on your property, or outside town. How about changing the belt gun to a K-frame sized .41mag (Taurus Tracker) or .357mag (tons of choices). Under a concealment garment you'll probably be ok and when taking out the trash you can just open carry in the summer since you'll be on your own property, right.

Most likely, don't change unless you really want to. You are probably less likely to have a negative close encounter with the animal kingdom than you are a self-defense situation (not based on any stats, just my gut feeling) so stay with what you know. If you are really uncomfortable and need something for the animals for your comfort, then follow my above suggestions. Of course, you can always do the 9mm, you're probably better off against a bear w/ 9mm +P+ or even +P than with .45acp (more penatration), but it wouldn't be my first choice.

[10-Ring]

I was leaning towards 9mm, but when I got to mountain lion & bear I'd want something w/ a little more girth and since you don't have 10mm on the list, I'd say 45acp.

[cool45auto]

9mm.

[DMK]

Hmm, tough call for the calibers listed in a compact gun. I'm sceptical of any of those calibers living up to their potential in a 2"-3" barrel, even including the .357. IMO, 9mm and .357 depend on velocity too much, 45ACP is already going slow to begin with so I'd have to bet on the compromise caliber: .40 S&W

Usually it's not the barrel length that's hard to conceal, it's the handgrip size. If you were talking full size barrel, I'd go with 45ACP or .357 in a 4" to 5".

[Standing Wolf]

.357 magnum, of course. What kind of poll wouldn't include the obvious?

[C.R.Sam]

Hi Alan.....long time no see.

I be little, 5'5, 10 stone; and have no problem concealing 2 1/2" Smith Model 19. K frame.

for it to be effective tool, one should practice a LOT with em. Every conceivable position and grip etc etc.

There is a gent in New Mexico that likes bear meat. He uses a snub 686 to harvest blackies. (He even crazier than I )

Sam

[firestar]

People that don't think foxes are a threat to human life have never been chased by a pack of them. There is nothing more scary than a wild pack of foxes on your tail. They are blood thursty buggers! The only thing more deadly than a pack of foxes is a gang of bald eagles! Most people don't realize how deadly foxes and eagles can be. Just because they never kill anyone is no reason not to shoot them on sight.:rolleyes:

You are far more likely to be attacked by a dog than a person and you are far more likely to be attacked by a person than a bear or a wolf yet everyone wants to know what handgun is best for stopping a bear.:rolleyes: How come I never see threads that ask what handgun is best for shooting a crazed Pit Bull? Many people are attacked by crazed Pit Bulls but only a few are ever attacked by bears and wolves.

I think a CCW should be chosen for the greatest threat. The greatest threat is always the most common threat not the most scary threat.

What gun would be best for stopping a Pit Bull attack? I think a .44spl snubbie or 3" bbl revolver would be perfect. I think a Charter Arms Pit Bull would be perfect.:D

[DMK]

The only thing more deadly than a pack of foxes is a gang of bald eagles! Well then stop climbing up there and stealing their eggs! :neener:

What gun would be best for stopping a Pit Bull attack? I think a .44spl snubbie or 3" bbl revolver would be perfect. I agree. The .357 doesn't appear to be a magic anti-pitbull bullet.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32375

[clubsoda22]

the way i look at it, bears have really big heads. Tho only reason to need 10mm or big magnums is if you wanted to keep the head as a trophy so went for body shots. In self defence? Why? I have some 9's and .45's that i'm sure will penetrate bear skull. As for mountain lion and wolves, i don't get why people think that ammo they would trust to drop a 250 lb crackhead (9, 40, 45) would not be suitable against a 125 lb mountain lion or 70lb wolf.

Now, if i was being attacked by bears weekly, i'd probably be packing a 10mm and some texas ammunition 200grain JHP. Tex ammo are the only people who load the 10mm properly, that is, hot. Their 200 grainers push 700ftlbs, whereas the corbon is somewhere in the 500's, unless you buy their hunting ammo, which is cast lead, and not suitable for self defence.

I love 10mm as an all purpose ammo. But for your situation, a quality gun with quality ammo in 9, 40, or 45 will do the trick.

[firestar]

Well then stop climbing up there and stealing their eggs!

It is clear that you have never had a Bald Eagle omelet.:evil:

[JohnKSa]

1. Shooting a bear in the head with a 9mm. .40 or .45 is a bad idea. The angle is bad and the bone is thick. It will not penetrate unless you get very lucky.

2. I have never heard of a 70lb coyote. That's big for a wolf.

3. Of everything you listed, I'd be much more afraid of feral dogs which can get up to 70lbs and larger.

4. If you want to stick with a reasonably sized autopistol that will do what you want, you need a 10mm.

[C.R.Sam]

Moved from the land of gators in back yard to the land of bears in the front yard. Hmmmm.

Yeah, primary would be a good flashlight.

Sam

[clubsoda22]

my 9mm self-defence load will penetrate 3/4" bulletproof glass and will crack ballistic steel plates on occasion. Bear skull isn't a problem, john. :D

[jercamp45]

Why? Because it can be loaded down and loaded up! I carried one for over 27 years, from Alaska(with KTW's as a back up to Remington 870 with Brenneke Slugs), to hikes on the Pacific Crest Trail, Mountain Warefare School, 4 years as a Jarhead, 4 in a large NE city doing disaster ops, 10 in south Florida, and many campouts and climbing trips in many places. It is rather familiar to my hand and comfortable to my mind!!
Not gonna run into many bears in Vegas, but I hit the hills any chance I get and I will take a .45 over all the others...including the .357(I met a feral dog that was not impressed with the pair of 158 gr JSP's I had just put into it's chest!)! I load mine with 45 plus p's now, and if I was going into bear country for an extended time, I would buy a 460 Rowland Conversion kit from clark custon guns(.com) for a government model. The idea of ten 45 caliber bullets at .44 magnum velocities make me all warm and fuzzy!
And YES!!!!! to a good flashlight! Found myself in a burnt out building with no electricity in the Bronx at zero dark thirty, walked in an apartment and my bulb in my maglite burnt out!! Much more danger than bear country, them two legged's! But I pulled out my 'back up'(a mini mag) and switched bulbs...all was well in my world!(the Officer's model sure felt REAL comfortable too! Ooops, how did that get there?).
Surefire, Streamlight and the ASP tac lite(on the end of my expandable baton) are all great products!
Jercamp45

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

my 9mm self-defence load will penetrate 3/4" bulletproof glass and will crack ballistic steel plates on occasion. Bear skull isn't a problem, john.

Alot of people make this mistake. A bear skull, covered with meat, gristle, hair, etc. is considerably better protection for the bear than a single layer of stronger, but more brittle material, like glass or steel. Add to it the angle of entry (how does you 9mm do when the glass is angles back 60 degrees) and you end up with a low likelihood of penetration.

I do happen to think that a 9mm might penetrate better than a .45, but both are like shooting marbles out of a sling shot. My earlier point was only that the more penetrating combat calibers might suck less.

[Al Thompson]

I'd worry less about caliber and more about bullets. If bears and big dogs are on your list, I'd take a hard look at 147 JHPs in 9mm, 230 JHPs that expand slowly (XTPs come to mind) and 158 LSWCs in the .38.

[MCNETT]

The 10mm is the only option, preferably a Glock 29 for double duty. I would load it with 165GSHP @ 1425fps for CCW and I would load it with 200FMJ/FP @ 1270fps for hiking and trail duty. Both are available through DoubleTap Ammunition, my company!
-Mike

[Frohickey]

I chose the 45ACP.

Its concealable, for those times when two-legged animals come and attack.
Its also entirely suitable for fox, wolves, mountain lions and bears... okay... koala bears and panda bears, not grizzlys :D

[JohnKSa]

Yup, angle of incidence is way more important than the thickness strength of the material.

A 9mm will almost certainly shoot through a bear skull if you can take a shot where the bullet goes straight into the skull.

The guy who recently killed a bear with a 9mm got really lucky and put one into the shoulder socket which incapacitated it long enough for him to line up and shoot it in the head at an angle sufficient for penetration.

However, when they're coming at you, the skull is at a really bad angle for penetration unless you happen to get into an eye socket.

[Blackhawk]

9mm stoked with RBCD ammo.

[.45Ruger]

I don't know much about balistics but I am curious if using +P .45 ACP out of a full barreled 1911 would be of sufficient power to stop a bear or mountain lion.

[Blackhawk]

Sure.

Takes 2 hits.

One in each eye.

[Alan Fud]

Posted by MCNETT: ... I would load it with 165GSHP @ 1425fps for CCW and I would load it with 200FMJ/FP @ 1270fps for hiking and trail duty ... Mike, I saw your ad (http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/002124.html) over at the S&Wforums (http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/) (where I also moderate) and was actually planning on placing an order around Thanksgiving. I was thinking of getting the 200gr XTP/JHP (1250fps/ 694ft./ lbs.) and the 180gr Golden Sabre Hollow Point (1330fps/ 707 ft./ lbs.) and alternating them every other round in my S&W 1006 ...
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f32.jpg
... what's your opinion on that choice?

[Zach S]

I voted .45 ACP because its what I shoot, almost excusively. On occasion I'll shoot my .38 or a rental, but all of my primary guns are .45.

bear or lion, i'm going back in the house for some real firepower. The only choice I have is more ammo, but I 'd be going inside as well.

[Sean Smith]

The correct answer to this question is .357 Magnum for a wheelgun and 10mm Auto in a semi-auto.

[MCNETT]

Alan,
Out of your 1006 I think that is a great choice for dual -duty.

[Son of John]

Fellows, if you are afraid of being eaten by something like a grizzly or a pack of coyotes, you need a lot more at the party than any handgun. I'd sling at least a .270 before I went out. On my belt I would go with a big magnum revolver instead of any semi-auto. If the rifle failed, it would be a very close shot, probably while I'm being mauled, and I don't want to chance pushing the slide of a SA out of battery.

Better yet, run away if you can like mad.

[agtman]

Alan:

Nice-looking 1006. :)

[larryw]

I doubt the improved penetration of a smaller caliber will be much help; more than likely that means the bear/lion bleeds out after he's done eating you.

I'd rather impart as much energy as possible into the animal with the hope of stopping the charge in its tracks. Of the list, I'd choose +P 45 with tough JHP bullets, like the Hornady XTP. We know these will stop the two-legged varmints.

Bells on your shoes and whistle while you work. Most attacks are caused by surprised animals. If they hear you coming, they'll likely vacate the area.

[C.R.Sam]

Pokin a hole in a bear's skull one problem.
Hitting the brain another problem.
Not easy.
Read up on bear anatomy.

Or, avoid em.

Sam

[timbo]

I'm going to say try them all and shoot the one that you control best. Some control the slower .45 well and some like the faster and more snappy 9. There are good defense loads in just about all calibers. I won't vote for what you should get, but I like .45 auto...

Unless it's against the bear, then you're SOL

[Mastrogiacomo]

9mm -- it's shot placement that's most vital...

[JeepDriver]

9mm from a Glock 17

18 rounds of 9mm is hard to argue with

[BluesBear]

If you're worried while taking out the garbage after dark why limit yourself to your CCW? Grab a good 12 gauge pump with at least six shots of either Slugs or HeaviShot 00 Buck slung muzzle down over your left shoulder (if you're right handed) for quick access. A tac-light on it would be a good idea as well. You should be ready for anything you might encounter.

Of course you could just carry a ham with you and if you run across any four legged critters just throw it at them and while they're gnawing on it run like hell.

You could get a dog and have it walk with you at night. It will see/hear/smell danger long before you will.

[355sigfan]

None of the above although the 45 acp with +P ammo gets the most power. Stick with a 44 mag mountain gun or bigger for woods carry in bear areas.
PAT

[Poohgyrr]

Hmmmm,

Well, for now, I picked the .40 for the penetration and mag capacity. Sometimes you may have to deal with more than one or two thugs, and my .40 saves me reloading downtime. If bears are on the list, then I want a strong .45, change over to something like .45 Super/ .400 Corbon, and hope it works.

Tomorrow I may pick my favorite Hi Power, and not worry about bears.:what:

[landon74]

Of those choices I chose .45 ACP, but in the real world I'd want at least a .357 Mag. I'd much prefer a 10mm or .41/.44 Mag....

Not that I have any desire whatsoever to try to bring a bear down with a handgun.....:D

[RustyHammer]

.357 Mag. (Not listed) Revolver and rifle ... double duty.

[355sigfan]

The correct answer to this question is .357 Magnum for a wheelgun and 10mm Auto in a semi-auto.

END
Sorry but no thats not the correct answer. The correct answer would be to carry a shotgun loaded with Breneke slugs or a highpowered rifle backed up by a big bore six gun not a puny 357 mag.
Pat

[TheeBadOne]

10mm/.357 Mag fit the bill to a "T".

[Rebel Gunman HK]

I would feel comfortable with 7-8 rds of .45 against most bears.... If they can take all that and still catch me than i guess they earned it.

[Poohgyrr]

After finally reading this whole thread, I personally like the dog idea. Any size dog would probably work. We like those little "ankle biters" that not only yap at stuff to let you know it's there, but also smother you in licks and tail wags every time they see you. If bears were a worry, I'd also have that Smith 10 MM, a rifle, or slug loaded SG.

And I bet you have some nice country scenary and air to go with all this other stuff. Enjoy it, I would. :)

[Sean Smith]

Pat,

In another thread he specified BLACK bears, not humungo brownies. Not in the same, ahem, weight class. If I was worried about grizzly bears I'd carry a big-bore long arm too. We all don't live in Giant Freakin' Mammal Land. ;)

[RWK]

I did not vote. None of the listed options is suitable for bear. However, were I compelled to select one of the alternatives, it would be the .45 ACP.

Regards.