[neededausername]

I was reading a discussion the other day about the relative strengths and weaknesses of the .357 Sig and started to wonder why no auto loaders in .357 Mag? It seems to be a very popular, dependable round, so why are they relegated to only wheelguns? Same with the .44 Mag.(Not knocking wheelguns here, that will probably be my next purchase)

I'm sure someone on here can give me an answer.

[TAB]

Rimed cartages are hard to get to work in an auto.

[jlbraun]

Well, besides the Desert Eagle in .357Mag and .44Mag? :neener:

Rimmed cartridges aren't as reliable in an autoloader - one rim can get behind another, locking up the gun when it tries to feed. Secondly, the cartridge is long, so it makes the grip really big even in a single stack magazine. A double stack magazine would be huge.

Also, that long cartridge means that a traditional Browning tilting feed doesn't work as well, as a long round will ram into the top of the chamber and jam. The straightwall cartridge can also cause extraction problems, and the rim of a revolver cartridge isn't designed to handle the high stresses of being ripped out of a chamber at high speed instead of gently tapped into your palm like in a revolver. The DE uses big big extractors to do this by spreading the extraction force over a large area.

Lastly, the high pressure generated by factory loadings means that you might consider designing a completely different cycling mechanism like the DE's gas system.

[ArmedBear]

The current Desert Eagle Mark XIX comes in .357M, .44M and .50AE.

http://www.magnumresearch.com/Browse.asp?Category=Desert+Eagle:Mark+XIX

I find the .44 Magnum to be really pleasant to shoot, but Desert Eagles seem to be the gun that gunnies love to hate.

I just hate the price.:)

[buzz_knox]

Is the Coonan .357 Mag still around?

[machinisttx]

Actually, Desert Eagle chambers both the .357 and .44 mag in their monstrosity of a handgun. I believe that Coonan Arms chambered a 1911 style handgun for the .357 as well.

Rimmed cartridges tend to have feeding problems in autoloaders.

The Sig cartridge is the equal of the Magnum with 125 grain loads, but with anything else it is inferior and far less versatile. The wound channel is also different, due to the full copper jacket of the autoloader round rather than the scalloped half jacket of the Magnum.

[rcmodel]

The Desert Eagle is made in .357 & .44 Mag, but it is one of the few auto's to successfully get rimmed revolver rounds to feed out of a box mag.

rcmodel

[neededausername]

Okay I thought it might have something to do with the rim, then why do some rounds like .38 not present a problem in switching between wheel and auto?

I figured there would be some exception like DE, but I was talking about more common guns. Thanks for the info though.

[ArmedBear]

it is one of the few auto's to successfully get rimmed revolver rounds to feed out of a box mag.


There are many that do.

http://ruger.com/Firearms/images/Product-Variations/255.jpghttp://ruger.com/Firearms/images/Product-Variations/284.jpg
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/images/051428s.jpghttp://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/107412_thumb.jpg
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/130512_thumb.jpghttp://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2157/1620/200/ColtWoodsman.jpg

The challenge is not to make them work, but to make them FIT.

The easy way to make it reliable is to design an angled magazine so the rim of each round sits in front of the round below it. Ruger's .22LR pistols feed VERY reliably -- much, much more so than their rifles. With .22LR (like the pistols above), you can have a magazine angle that's different from the grip angle, and it's no sweat. There's plenty of extra room.

Another way, like the Ciener kit does, is to use a curved "banana clip" design:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:FX5g3lgBUzd_lM:http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image%3Fsaleitemid%3D272750

These are also very, very reliable, and easy to load also. Of course, they have even more extra room to play with in a STANAG well, and they can hang off the gun as far as they need to.

The problem for a pistol design is: how do you fit something like that in a regular grip, with big .44 Magnum rounds in it?:)

[Zoogster]

The problem for a pistol design is: how do you fit something like that in a regular grip, with big .44 Magnum rounds in it?

You don't, you have the magazine attach outside the pistol grip. Of course that makes it an illegal assault pistol in CA, so you can't have one. :neener:

That law effectively limits how powerful autoloaders can be since the cartridge length can only be so long while still working for most hands.

A unique magazine design that attached lengthwise or something similar could help keep the dimensions the same as a regular pistol for use with a holster etc.
Perhaps a pistol magazine that has a a few tubular stacks, or something similar to the way the p90 magazine operates, but attached on the bottom of the pistol lengthwise forward of the trigger guard. Or maybe even one designed to attach along the side of the pistol.
Once someone was used to such a design it would quick to load, but allow cartridges larger than what can be fit into the pistol's grip.
The grip itself could also be any size or shape you desire since rounds would not have to feed through it.

There is a few options for larger rounds, but all of the ones I can think of require a magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip.

As far as the OP's question, a 9x25 dillon loaded light will use the same bullet as the .357 Magnum, and at the same velocity. So the round can be duplicated exactly.
It is normaly loaded quite a bit hotter than the .357 though.

[rcmodel]

then why do some rounds like .38 not present a problem in switching between wheel and auto?They do present a problem.

There are no .38 Special semi-autos commonly made anymore.
The ones that have been made in the past were strictly NRA Bullseye target guns, and had 5 round magazines.
(Colt 1911 conversions & S&W Model 52)

rcmodel

[ArmedBear]

You don't, you have the magazine attach outside the pistol grip. Of course that makes it an illegal assault pistol in CA, so you can't have one.

It won't be the first thing I look for when I move out of state, either, though.

Sounds a tad unwieldy, and I say that as someone who just bought one of these.:)

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/150T.jpg

[tipoc]

Here...http://www.wildeyguns.com/wildey.html

In terms of the .357 there are several rounds that duplicate of exceed what it can do currently offered in a variety of semis. The .38 Super and the .357 Sig can duplicate the effectiveness of the standard self defense loads of the .357. The 10 mm can reach most of what the .357 does in a hunting round (it's often debated whether the 10mm exceeds the .357).

In terms of the .44 mag not much is available from a semi other than what has been mentioned.

As others have mentioned part of the problem is the size of the cartridges and the size of the pistols needed to hold the .357 and the .44 Mag. A wheelgun holding them can actually be smaller and lighter.

tipoc

[Z-Michigan]

<opinions ahead>

The Desert Eagle is amusing, but about the least practical handgun around.

The 356 Sig (it's a 9mm, not a proper .357) is faster than a 9mm but not by a whole lot, and does not quite match the .357 magnum at any bullet weight. I would rather have a .40 S&W.

The 10mm auto does have truly serious power, roughly comparable to a .357 magnum, and would be my #1 pick if I wanted that much power in an autoloader. As an added bonus, it's available in Glocks and 1911's.

[Defensory]

The OP's question has been asked at THR before, probably several times, and my answer remains the same---the .357 SIG and 10mm are plenty powerful and readily available. So who needs a .357 Mag semi-auto? ;)

[ArmedBear]

The Desert Eagle is amusing, but about the least practical handgun around.

IMO if it has a practical purpose, it's as a field gun. Throw it in the mix with Contenders, longer-barreled Smiths and Rugers, etc., and it makes more sense than if you're comparing it to a Glock.

I don't see a 6" 629 as a really practical home defense gun, either, to say nothing of any of the larger guns.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

People have mentioned DEs, Wildeys, and Coonan. But don't forget that the LAR Grizzley pistol did it too (1911 style pistol):

It was made in .357 mag and .44 mag, as well as large auto-pistol rounds - .45 win mag, .50 AE, 9mm win mag, 10mm auto, .38 super, and .45 acp:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg180-e.htm

Yes, the grip on them is BIG, espec. on the Mk V. which housed the .44 mag and .50 AE.

[wheelgunslinger]

And, the Mateba is kind-of a semi-auto. though not the way you're thinking. :)

[MCgunner]

10 MM

That's your .357 auto. ;)

Or, there's the used and out of production Coonan, but the 10 shoots just as hard.

[makarovnik]

Yup.

[Mortech]

+10 McGunner , thats what I went for when I replaced my 357mag revolver as my field gun .

[deadin]

The ones that have been made in the past were strictly NRA Bullseye target guns, and had 5 round magazines.
(Colt 1911 conversions & S&W Model 52)

And were designed for full wadcutter bullets that seated flush with the case mouth, thereby getting rid of the overall length problem.

[ArchAngelCD]

neededausername,
Like the other have said, it's hard to get a rimmed cartridge to reliable feed in a semi-auto.

I don't care much for the .357 Sig because it's not a straight case.

If you want something very close to a .357 Magnum semi-auto find a nice 1911 chambered in .38 Super. It's close to the 38/357 in size and if you handload you can get very close to the ballistics of a .357 Magnum and possible surpass the .357 Sig. Remington's 125gr .357 Sig has a velocity of 1350 fps, Remington's 130gr .38 Super has a velocity of 1215 fps. With a handload you can push the .38 Super close to 1400 fps without going over current SAAMI pressure limits.

[Lady with a Gun]

Someone mentioned that really long cases don't work very well in a handgun utilizing the Browning tilt barrel system (of unlocking).

Another reason: The really long cartridge makes for a very large grip, perhaps too big for most shooters.

[poison7fl]

The .357 mag is a large round to fit in a magazine. Your guns grip would be huge...

[Mastiff]

I think the 9x23 Winchester is the ballistic equivalent of the 357 Magnum. With the very strong web in the case (50,000+ CUP) you can easily reach 357 Mag pressures. I load the 9x23 Winchester with 357 bullets for my converted Tok.
Clark has handloaded 9x23 cases to have TWICE the maximum charge of the 357 Magnum without blowing up either the case or the pistol.

A quote from one of his posts:

If one can find a 9mm Tokarev barrel, and ream it out to 9x23mm, load with Power Pistol, 158 gr XTPs and 1.4" OAL, then the Tokarev goes to a level beyond the hottest 357 mag.

[another okie]

Action pistol shooters have used the .38 Super for a long time, and some are now loading up the 9mm so it makes the "major" power factor, which means loading it up to very high pressures. In fact, I think I remember reading about a ".355 magnum" marked round that was a very, very hot 9mm.

[Thumper_6119]

Some of the responses to this thread are hysterical!!

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I find the .44 Magnum to be really pleasant to shoot, but Desert Eagles seem to be the gun that gunnies love to hate.

I was told by a local gun range worker (where guns are rented), that the D.E. is the worst to maintain after being shot a lot, among all the handguns that they rent out. Seems that its gas system is fragile and breaks a lot. Not sure which parts exactly.....

Yeah, the 9x23 Win is good thick brass and is indeed the one true equivalent to .357 mag in a semi-auto. Some say that the Tanfoglio in .38 super will handle the 9x23 just fine.

[rcmodel]

I don't hate Desert Eagles.
My son had one in .357, and it was the most accurate long range handgun I think I ever shot.

But there is no deigning the fact they are huge, heavy, and about as ergonomic & quick-handling as a cast iron anvil.

DE's should come with trail-legs and wheels as standard equipment!

rcmodel

[neededausername]

I appreciate all the replies to my original question. To those who are telling me how I can get something as powerful as a .357 in an autoloader, thanks, but I'm not interested. I don't necessarily want a .357 or .44 mag semiauto. I'm just new to the gun culture, and trying to learn as much as possible. So I was just curious as to why. I think I know now. I love how helpful everyone is around here.

[JShirley]

Well, Mastiff beat me to the punch.

The .38 Super is more powerful than a 9x19, by a little. The 9x23mm Winchester, on the other hand, can give true .357 magnum power with lighter weight loads from the factory. Winchester White Box (in this caliber evidently one of the few JSP that actually expands) will deliver a 124 grain jacketed soft point at 1500 fps from a 5" barrel. 125 grain Silver Tips are loaded about 40 fps slower.

People search for "the ultimate", and it's elusive. I can say that I have a double stack 1911 in 9x23mm Winchester, and if I had to defend myself with a handgun, it'd be pretty darn good choice.

John