[wunderkind]

Anyone heard if any major agencies are looking into the FiveSeven as a special unit's weapon?

Seems to me there has to be a market for a 20+1 the same weight as a Glock that shoots a cartridge capable of defeating body armor in a pistol-size "always there" format with 9mm-like recoil.

If you've heard of any Federal or State agencies looking at the Five-Seven please share your knowledge. Just curious.

[denfoote]

Not that I know of, unless they are buying them on the sly!!

[Nightcrawler]

Well, here's the thing. AFTER it penetrates body armor, word has it that it wounds like a .22 Magnum.

In other words, it's a pitifully anemic cartridge, by all reckoning.

And, to be honest, American criminals really aren't wearing body armor all that frequently. Even the most modern, concealable vests are bulky and hot; not something your typical drug dealer in Miami or car thief in LA wants to wear when it's 90* or hotter outside.

The Five-Seven pistol is also reputed to have the worst trigger on a production pistol.

[Robert inOregon]

P90's have been purchased by the US Secret Service. And a couple of major cities in the south east have adopted FiveSeven for their entire police forces.

Problem has been ammunition cost and not performance. Cartridge cost are two to three times more than 9 mm.

FN's selling point to major police forces is reduced liability cost from collateral damage and easy to train personnel with the low recoiling gun. Not body armor penetration.

[Oracle]

Robert,

Do you know which cities in the SE are using the FN Five Seven as their duty guns? I'd be interested in finding out.

[Robert inOregon]

Oracle
Had a lengthy conversation with FN during Shot Show where they were trying to court us into carrying their new FiveSeven pistol. They had mentioned which cities and the secret service. Just don't remember which cities. Think its in Virginia or the Carolina's somewhere.

If you email FN, they may have a list of references.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Given the low recoil, mag capacity and LEO status, I'm surprised these aren't marketed with a stock and full auto selector.

[CWL]

Here's a clip of a news article from last year about a LEO friendly fire incident involving a FiveseveN.


Two bullets struck Duluth police officer
At least 1 was 'friendly fire'
Beth Warren - Staff
Wednesday, August 28, 2002
Officer Jill Manders was struck by two bullets during Thursday's neighborhood shootout between police and a resident, Duluth police Chief Randy Belcher said Tuesday.
Now police must determine if both shots came from the same gun.
At least one of those shots was a 5.7x28mm bullet from a pistol carried by Duluth police supervisors, Gwinnett District Attorney Danny Porter said.
"That's hard on everybody," Belcher said. "There's no way to actually tell yet. . . . Until the ballistic tests are done, it's kind of a guessing game."
Duluth police supervisors carry Five-seveN pistols, which use bullets that can penetrate Kevlar helmets and bullet-resistant vests, according to the gun manufacturer's Web site.
Suspect Roman Khaimov, 38, who had fired several rounds at police with a .357-caliber revolver, died in his Benthollow Lane garage after being shot several times by police, Porter said.
Manders was struck by "friendly fire" from her position outside of the suspect's house, Porter said. He said she was next to a fence in an adjoining yard.
A bullet tore through her right calf, while a second shot grazed her left thigh, the chief said. She was treated at an area hospital and is recovering at home.
Manders, an eight-year police veteran, hasn't been given the OK by doctors to return to work, but she may be able to return in a week or two, Belcher said.
The incident began at W.P. Jones Park, adjacent to a Duluth police station, when Khaimov pulled his car next to a car driven by his estranged wife, Inna Savinova, and fired into her window, police said. Khaimov then drove away.
Savinova feared she might have been shot after seeing blood on her arms and face. She rushed to flag down a Duluth officer.
The chief helped assess Savinova's injuries, realizing she had been injured by glass from the shattered car window. Meanwhile, officers rushed to Khaimov's neighborhood, the Grove Park subdivision, off Pleasant Hill Road.
From inside his home, Khaimov traded heavy gunfire with police for at least half an hour while neighbors took cover inside their homes.
A team of officers had knocked on back doors of area homes to see if residents wanted to evacuate during the standoff.
Bullets peppered houses, fences and yards on nine properties, Porter said.
It was the first incident in at least 26 years in which a Duluth officer has discharged a weapon in the line of duty, Belcher said.
"It's just an unfortunate situation that took place," the chief said. "The officers who responded took what actions they thought were necessary at the time. My heart goes out to the officers that were involved and to the family" of Khaimov.
Family and friends of Khaimov said he had been suffering from depression. <p>
Gwinnett County police detectives are investigating the incident and will forward a report of their findings to Porter for review. Porter refused to discuss other details, including how many shots were fired and how many times Khaimov was struck.

[Beav]

Hmm....I wonder why they were using the fiveseven. Did they think Khaimov had body armor? I'm not so sure I would blame the round for the friendly fire.

[GooseGestapo]

The Duluth PD (Metro Atlanta, Ga suburb) was issuing them to supervisors for evaluation.
Seems that the last I heard they were re-evaluating.
Seems the wounding is inadequate, and liability greater due to excessive penetration. See preceding excerpt from News Article. Also do a search of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution (AKA Urinal-Constipation).
www.ajc.com

Some "scuttle-butt" I picked up at the GPSTC was that she was hit by a stray round that ricocheted and bounced around a bit. Possibly even hit twice by same bullet. From what I heard, there were quite a few rounds fired at scene. FWIW, I inquired about this incident after picking up a few fired cases at the range.
From experienced and knowledgeable souces, the performance is actually close to that of the Airforce survival rifle in .22 Hornet with the issued FMJ rounds. Because of less velocity and different twist rates, the FiveSeven doesn't tumble and rupture like 5.56 Nato.
Makes sense to me.

[Double Naught Spy]

Beav, you aren't sure you would blame the round on friendly fire? As only the police supervisor had one, what would you blame it on? The ironic thing is that the round is supposed to be light and fast, and hence a fairly short ranged weapon even in comparison with other rounds like 9 mm and .45 acp. Even so, the injured officer was hit at some distance and through a fence. Ideally, the round should not have done that, but that is the difference between ideals and reality.

As for the use of the gun, 'they' were not using it. There would have been only one supervisor and that supervisor would have had the FiveseveN used. Did they think the bad guy had body armor? What does it matter? They needed to be prepared for the eventuality whether they thought he did or thought he didn't. The FiveseveN gives the supervisor a chance to deal with armor clad bad guys without lugging a rifle. That is one of the sort of hallmarks of rank and prestige, not having to tote as much gear.

On of the recent issue, Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement reviewed the 'IOM' (individual officer model) which sounded really stupid. It was a semi-auto 10 round capacity version. At least the full auto version comes with 20 rounds. With ballistics akin to a .22 magnum, 10 shots just isn't enough. Twenty would be better, but that still means you may need to score lots of hits.

[Beav]

My understanding is that the fiveseven round was developed with penetration in mind, defeating body armor. I have no experience with the round and I'm not in law enforcement but a round that goes through so many layers of kevlar would lead me to believe that there might be overpenetration issues. I'm saying that you pick the right weapon for the job. Was it the right weapon? Does it even belong in LE?

[BowStreetRunner]

shoot if i was a cop i wouldnt want it
BSR

[surfinUSA]

As a police trainer one thing I always say is never carry around in your gun that will penetrate your vest.

A surprising number of officers are shot and killed with their own guns. Nobody, including those dead officers ever thought it would happen to them. Me, I won't carry anything that will penetrate my vest.

[Coronach]

It would seem to be a niche role for LE. Sure, it is nice to have a weapon on hand for when you need to penetrate armor. Of course, if you're going to have it not replace the current sidearm, it would make sense to simply issue a rifle. Then you get all of the advantages of a proper long arm, instead of some fancy-pants new pistol with a bad trigger and a round which may or may not work

And I think it is a poor replacement for a standard sidearm for a few reasons:

1. It doesn't seem to have adequate wounding characteristics, though I'm sure its too soon to tell for sure.

2. Overpenetration would seem to be the rule and not the exception. And in LE, thats very very bad.

3. It will penetrate the officer's vest.

Perhaps as a sidearm for tactical teams who know they're going up against armored opponents it would make sense. Or as a concealed weapon carried on a line officer. But as a standard-isse sidearm? Seems bad to me.

Mike

PS Note, if I was able to, I'd still buy one in a heartbeat, along with a pallet of ammo. The geewhiz factor is still too much to resist. :D

[Robert inOregon]

about the ammunition from FN's web site. go to "law enforcement" and then click on "ammunition".

http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm

All I'm hearing here is tons of assumptions and speculation about the cartridges performance. We definitely need samples. :D

Looks like quite a bit more than a 22 Magnum.

http://www.fnherstal.com/html/57/574.jpg

[Nightcrawler]

Well of course FN's going to make it look good on their website....

After all, shot placement shot placement shot placement, right guys? Cartridge selection is way down there on the list of things that matter, right?

:o

[Coronach]

;)

While shot placement does rule all (a .22lr in the eye beats a .454 Casull that thundered off into the ether), the round used is also important. I agree that it is a distant second once one gets to the point of adequacy (IMO, about .38spl level of performance).

However, I have no clue where this round lies as far as performance goes. I mean, .223 is 'just' a .22, but I'm in NO hurry to get shot with one, yah know?

Mike ;)

[Felonious Monk]

Dumb question from a non-LEO:

Aren't the performance characteristics of this latest Jedi Light Saber from FN almost the same thing you get from the old CZ-52? (as in near-rifle quality velocity and penetration?)

Why not just update THAT design for the 21st century?

[Robert inOregon]

Aren't the performance characteristics of this latest Jedi Light Saber from FN almost the same thing you get from the old CZ-52? (as in near-rifle quality velocity and penetration?)

Why not just update THAT design for the 21st century?


One Tokarev cartridge has the same weight as almost three 5.7x28 cartridges. Tokarev is also much wider, which allows less magazine capacity. Not to mention the increase in recoil. Velocity is no greater than a modern .357 Sig cartridge.

The 7.62 would also have problems with ricochet and over penetration in an urban and CQB environment. And is lethal at 800 meters. FiveSeven does not have those problems.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=456293

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, looking at the gel shot, this thing is pretty much all out of gas by 25cm and most of the wounding occurs by 15cm. This means penetration of around 9" maximum (and a long, low-velocity, less than .22 permanent cavity for about 10cm of that) and most damage is done before 6" is reached.

As far as a body-armor penetrating pistol goes, if you are going to be hunting things in body armor, you should be carrying a rifle.

[Correia]

I dry fired one of these at SHOT. The trigger pull sucked. I mean it really really sucked.

Even if they were legal, I don't think I would buy one for any sort of serious use.

[jercamp45]

The latest in state of the art squirt guns! Lets make it smaller, lighter, faster, fancier. Make it look 'cool'. Make up charts and diagrams and brochures and pictures of jello to impress the masses.
Strategic marketing strikes again! You want a red dot and laser with that?
Oh, do not worry it is such a little bullet....it holds 20 rounds and will go through BODY ARMOR(oh my, it must be good).
It is a paper pushers dream gun, but pitty the poor sobs that have to carry it and use it.
I agree with Mr Roberts......armor? Time for a rifle.
Jercamp45

[rsilvers]

They seem to have changed the trigger. I pulled one and it was a good single action trigger, with a little creep but better or similar to a Browning HiPower.

[Ash]

They have one for sale at Dans in Gulfport, Mississippi. Not real impressed with it. It's amazing, isn't it, that the hot new round in the hot new pistol that took the police world by storm is fizzling out?

Ash

[rsilvers]

Whoever said it was hot or ever had any significant interest?

[pauli]

fn?

[rsilvers]

Yeah, but in general I don't remember any buzz -- mostly skepticism of the stopping power. But I am a fan. I want a P90, at least I think I do.

[Scoob]

It is kinda cool:D

Excellent for Rabbits or groundhogs I bet, and if they happen to be wearing armor...:p

Seriously though, I'd have a hard time trusting 30 grains of lead to stop a human, especially a large human.

[rsilvers]

Load up some 55 grain TAP bullets in there. Or 62 grain M855s.

[Zardoz]

I've shot the 5-7 a couple of times and have sold over a dozen. The gun is very light, the mags are light, a box of 50 is very light and I can see how carrying two 20 round mags would be a breeze. The trigger isn't heavy at all, it does have travel but the take up is much lighter than a Glock and the break is more like a Sig SA pull if not lighter .

I'm not one for "New modern wonder guns" but after shooting this pistol I thought COOL! . Once other makers start producing different types of ammo and playing around with design, I'm sure they can do all kinds of things including a tumbleing round like tha AK-74. A box of 50 will cost you $15+ for HP but that isn't all that bad if you think about it.

The gun is unique and has it's pluses.

[Ash]

True, but it has to last long enough to make it into the realm of experimentation. And, if nobody else chambers for it, there's not much incentive for ammo makers to do much. Though I suppose that FN is learning the hard way that when you snub the gun buying public, the civies, then you drastically reduce the potential market. Now they're trying to play catch-up (or CYA) with a product that is already dubius.

Ash

[Aikibiker]

Seems to me like it would be a fun little range toy. If the ammo was a bit cheaper. In my area it is going for $19.95 for 20 rounds. That is a bit much.

As for the combat potential of the round, I am rather indifferent about it. I am already very happy with my current carry gun and am not likely to give it up for quite a while.

[rsilvers]

CDNN has the ammo foir $15 for 50 rounds.