American Legal System Is Corrupt Beyond Recognition


PDA






2dogs
August 25, 2003, 08:53 AM
http://www.massnews.com/2003_Editions/3_March/030703_mn_american_legal_system_corrupt.shtml

American Legal System Is Corrupt Beyond Recognition, Judge Tells Harvard Law School

By Geraldine Hawkins
March 7, 2003

The American legal system has been corrupted almost beyond recognition, Judge Edith Jones of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, told the Federalist Society of Harvard Law School on February 28.

She said that the question of what is morally right is routinely sacrificed to what is politically expedient. The change has come because legal philosophy has descended to nihilism.

Judge Edith H. Jones of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit talks to members of Harvard Law School's Fed-eralist Society. Jones said that the question of what is mor-ally right is routinely sacrificed to what is politically expedient.

"The integrity of law, its religious roots, its transcendent quality are disappearing. I saw the movie 'Chicago' with Richard Gere the other day. That's the way the public thinks about lawyers," she told the students.

"The first 100 years of American lawyers were trained on Blackstone, who wrote that: 'The law of nature … dictated by God himself … is binding … in all counties and at all times; no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all force and all their authority … from this original.' The Framers created a government of limited power with this understanding of the rule of law - that it was dependent on transcendent religious obligation," said Jones.

She said that the business about all of the Founding Fathers being deists is "just wrong," or "way overblown." She says they believed in "faith and reason," and this did not lead to intolerance.

"This is not a prescription for intolerance or narrow sectarianism," she continued, "for unalienable rights were given by God to all our fellow citizens. Having lost sight of the moral and religious foundations of the rule of law, we are vulnerable to the destruction of our freedom, our equality before the law and our self-respect. It is my fervent hope that this new century will experience a revival of the original understanding of the rule of law and its roots.

"The answer is a recovery of moral principle, the sine qua non of an orderly society. Post 9/11, many events have been clarified. It is hard to remain a moral relativist when your own people are being killed."

According to the judge, the first contemporary threat to the rule of law comes from within the legal system itself.

Alexis de Tocqueville, author of Democracy in America and one of the first writers to observe the United States from the outside looking-in, "described lawyers as a natural aristocracy in America," Jones told the students. "The intellectual basis of their profession and the study of law based on venerable precedents bred in them habits of order and a taste for formalities and predictability." As Tocqueville saw it, "These qualities enabled attorneys to stand apart from the passions of the majority. Lawyers were respected by the citizens and able to guide them and moderate the public's whims. Lawyers were essential to tempering the potential tyranny of the majority.

"Some lawyers may still perceive our profession in this flattering light, but to judge from polls and the tenor of lawyer jokes, I doubt the public shares Tocqueville's view anymore, and it is hard for us to do so.

"The legal aristocracy have shed their professional independence for the temptations and materialism associated with becoming businessmen. Because law has become a self-avowed business, pressure mounts to give clients the advice they want to hear, to pander to the clients' goal through deft manipulation of the law. … While the business mentality produces certain benefits, like occasional competition to charge clients lower fees, other adverse effects include advertising and shameless self-promotion. The legal system has also been wounded by lawyers who themselves no longer respect the rule of law,"

The judge quoted Kenneth Starr as saying, "It is decidedly unchristian to win at any cost," and added that most lawyers agree with him.

However, "An increasingly visible and vocal number apparently believe that the strategic use of anger and incivility will achieve their aims. Others seem uninhibited about making misstatements to the court or their opponents or destroying or falsifying evidence," she claimed. "When lawyers cannot be trusted to observe the fair processes essential to maintaining the rule of law, how can we expect the public to respect the process?"

Lawsuits Do Not Bring 'Social Justice'

Another pernicious development within the legal system is the misuse of lawsuits, according to her.

"We see lawsuits wielded as weapons of revenge," she says. "Lawsuits are brought that ultimately line the pockets of lawyers rather than their clients. … The lawsuit is not the best way to achieve social justice, and to think it is, is a seriously flawed hypothesis. There are better ways to achieve social goals than by going into court."

Jones said that employment litigation is a particularly fertile field for this kind of abuse.

"Seldom are employment discrimination suits in our court supported by direct evidence of race or sex-based animosity. Instead, the courts are asked to revisit petty interoffice disputes and to infer invidious motives from trivial comments or work-performance criticism. Recrimination, second-guessing and suspicion plague the workplace when tenuous discrimination suits are filed … creating an atmosphere in which many corporate defendants are forced into costly settlements because they simply cannot afford to vindicate their positions.

"While the historical purpose of the common law was to compensate for individual injuries, this new litigation instead purports to achieve redistributive social justice. Scratch the surface of the attorneys' self-serving press releases, however, and one finds how enormously profitable social redistribution is for those lawyers who call themselves 'agents of change.'"

Jones wonders, "What social goal is achieved by transferring millions of dollars to the lawyers, while their clients obtain coupons or token rebates."

The judge quoted George Washington who asked in his Farewell Address, "Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths … in courts of justice?"

Similarly, asked Jones, how can a system founded on law survive if the administrators of the law daily display their contempt for it?

"Lawyers' private morality has definite public consequences," she said. "Their misbehavior feeds on itself, encouraging disrespect and debasement of the rule of law as the public become encouraged to press their own advantage in a system they perceive as manipulatable."

The second threat to the rule of law comes from government, which is encumbered with agencies that have made the law so complicated that it is difficult to decipher and often contradicts itself.

"Agencies have an inherent tendency to expand their mandate," says Jones. "At the same time, their decision-making often becomes parochial and short-sighted. They may be captured by the entities that are ostensibly being regulated, or they may pursue agency self-interest at the expense of the public welfare. Citizens left at the mercy of selective and unpredictable agency action have little recourse."

Jones recommends three books by Philip Howard: The Death of Common Sense, The Collapse of the Common Good and The Lost Art of Drawing the Line, which further delineate this problem.

The third and most comprehensive threat to the rule of law arises from contemporary legal philosophy.

"Throughout my professional life, American legal education has been ruled by theories like positivism, the residue of legal realism, critical legal studies, post-modernism and other philosophical fashions," said Jones. "Each of these theories has a lot to say about the 'is' of law, but none of them addresses the 'ought,' the moral foundation or direction of law."

Jones quoted Roger C. Cramton, a law professor at Cornell University, who wrote in the 1970s that "the ordinary religion of the law school classroom" is "a moral relativism tending toward nihilism, a pragmatism tending toward an amoral instrumentalism, a realism tending toward cynicism, an individualism tending toward atomism, and a faith in reason and democratic processes tending toward mere credulity and idolatry."

No 'Great Awakening' In Law School Classrooms

The judge said ruefully, "There has been no Great Awakening in the law school classroom since those words were written." She maintained that now it is even worse because faith and democratic processes are breaking down.

"The problem with legal philosophy today is that it reflects all too well the broader post-Enlightenment problem of philosophy," Jones said. She quoted Ernest Fortin, who wrote in Crisis magazine: "The whole of modern thought … has been a series of heroic attempts to reconstruct a world of human meaning and value on the basis of … our purely mechanistic understanding of the universe."

Jones said that all of these threats to the rule of law have a common thread running through them, and she quoted Professor Harold Berman to identify it: "The traditional Western beliefs in the structural integrity of law, its ongoingness, its religious roots, its transcendent qualities, are disappearing not only from the minds of law teachers and law students but also from the consciousness of the vast majority of citizens, the people as a whole; and more than that, they are disappearing from the law itself. The law itself is becoming more fragmented, more subjective, geared more to expediency and less to morality. … The historical soil of the Western legal tradition is being washed away … and the tradition itself is threatened with collapse."

Judge Jones concluded with another thought from George Washington: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."

Upon taking questions from students, Judge Jones recommended Michael Novak's book, On Two Wings: Humble Faith and Common Sense.

"Natural law is not a prescriptive way to solve problems," Jones said. "It is a way to look at life starting with the Ten Commandments."

Natural law provides "a framework for government that permits human freedom," Jones said. "If you take that away, what are you left with? Bodily senses? The will of the majority? The communist view? What is it - 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need?' I don't even remember it, thank the Lord," she said to the amusement of the students.

"I am an unabashed patriot - I think the United States is the healthiest society in the world at this point in time," Jones said, although she did concede that there were other ways to accommodate the rule of law, such as constitutional monarchy.

"Our legal system is way out of kilter," she said. "The tort litigating system is wreaking havoc. Look at any trials that have been conducted on TV. These lawyers are willing to say anything."

If you enjoyed reading about "American Legal System Is Corrupt Beyond Recognition" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Graystar
August 25, 2003, 09:02 AM
:rolleyes:

jimpeel
August 26, 2003, 09:30 PM
http://www.ncaabbs.com/newgraemlins/ugly.gif

El Tejon
August 26, 2003, 09:38 PM
Tell 'em, Edith!

I disagree with her assessments of the threats to the law. The first threat is from the government. "More laws, less justice." All others pale in comparision.

AR-10
August 26, 2003, 10:53 PM
I'm 47 years old. From what I have observed in that time I really can't say whether the system of justice in our country is any better or worse than it used to be.

I have come to the strongly held opinion, however, that justice and the law seldom meet in a courtroom.

Standing Wolf
August 26, 2003, 11:26 PM
The answer is a recovery of moral principle, the sine qua non of an orderly society. Post 9/11, many events have been clarified. It is hard to remain a moral relativist when your own people are being killed.

I think she's right; I'm afraid, however, there's not a leftist in the country who takes the loss of American lives the least bit seriously.

Tropical Z
August 27, 2003, 02:40 AM
Without tort reform,we can all expect the steady decline into the toilet that has been going on for 30 years to continue.Lawyers and liberals are determined to destroy America.:cuss:

Orthonym
August 27, 2003, 03:59 AM
I really don't need to hear these sorts of unpleasant, aye, nasty truths, for I am trying to cut back on my drinking.

Ian Sean
August 27, 2003, 09:24 AM
The practice of law and lawyers USED to be an honorable and honor bound profession. While I hate to demonize all lawyers and jurists for the many who have perverted the profession I have no choice.

My opinion on the subject is that lawyers produce NOTHING. They feed like a parasite on the productive in our society. Lawyers contribute nothing but misery and added costs to everything we buy or do. With the law makers all being lawyers they are blinded by self serving interests and worsen the problem with every new law or regulation.

Try to do anything today (that was routine 30 years ago) like opening even the smallest of businesses or buying a house without one.

One day the joking will be over.

tyme
August 27, 2003, 10:58 AM
Why would companies even consider civil consequences if tort law limited damages to some relatively low number (compared to the company's annual revenue)? The situation is not as simple as it appears.

I disagree with her position on religion. Anyone taking a serious look at the founders' writings will discover several of them were vehement in either rejection of religion or a strong belief in deism. Sure, many founders (people representing states at the second Constitutional Convention) were christians. Amusingly, a disproportionate number of the founders were not.

Christian beliefs are not and were not a prerequisite for believing in the rights and liberties some of the colonists refused to live without.

And whether the law has been corrupted beyond recognition has no bearing on whether a particular lawyer is virtuous. The law is a noble pursuit.

Apple a Day
August 27, 2003, 08:41 PM
JUSTICE is a noble pursuit. Law is the handmaiden of Justice, the shadow of the Truth, as Plato or Aristotle would say. If she does not serve Justice then it is time to find a new servant.
Law for the sake of law is only sophistry, meaningless and cumbersome, only amusing when discussed over dinner or drinks.
When people like Moose try to get rich off of book deals then things are horribly wrong.

Cosmoline
August 27, 2003, 08:49 PM
However, "An increasingly visible and vocal number apparently believe that the strategic use of anger and incivility will achieve their aims. Others seem uninhibited about making misstatements to the court or their opponents or destroying or falsifying evidence," she claimed. "When lawyers cannot be trusted to observe the fair processes essential to maintaining the rule of law, how can we expect the public to respect the process?"
----------

That pretty much sums it up. And it's a far deeper pit that even this Judge is willing to say. On the civil side, everything outside of small claims court is currupted. Not on an individual level--nobody's bribing judges. But on a macro level. The system is designed for moving money around for the benefit of lawyers. If people knew how things actually worked, they'd shut the whole mess down tomorrow. They'd probably also kill everyone associated with both the plaintiffs bar and the insurance companies.

You have all been lied to. Over and over and over again.

Cosmoline
August 27, 2003, 08:55 PM
You want REAL tort reform? I'll tell you how to start

--Institute universal health care, or allow hospitals to turn away anyone unable to pay. I'll let you in on a great secret. Any of you who buy insurance have already been paying for universal health care.

--Eliminate punitive damages in all cases

--Ban liability insurance and make its sale a felony, as it once was

--Eliminate civil juries in all cases

--Prohibit the award of any damages not related to a tangible cost. No pain and suffering, no emotional harm.

--MOST OF ALL. Stop looking to plaintiff lawyers or the civil system for justice. For all the complaints about lawyers, greedy clients are equally to blame.

jimpeel
August 27, 2003, 10:28 PM
You forgot:

-- Ban all lawyers and jurists from holding any -- and I do mean any -- public office; elected or not.

That's how we got to where we are now.

Peter Gun
August 27, 2003, 10:56 PM
I agree w/ the evaluation of the sickness of our legal system. It is a lack of morality, but not religion. One does not have to have religion to have morality. IMO the breakdown of the legal proffession derives from two basic corruptions.
1) elected judges- how this blatently unconstituional practice began I dont know. When you upset the checks on "democracy" in a Republic, of course things will get screwed up.

2)aggressive enforcement of "morality legislation"
unpopular laws like prohibition, illeagal drugs and income tax put the people against the government and create an "everyman for himself" mentality.

Cosmoline
August 28, 2003, 01:26 AM
Sitting judges are already prohibited from holding office or even being overtly involved in partisan politics (though quite a few push the limits of this).

ravinraven
August 28, 2003, 05:28 AM
Reading through this thread, I can see where that old truism comes from: Not all lawyers are corrupt. It's only 99% of them that give the rest a bad name.

There's little I can add. When the moral basis--no matter if it is said to derive from God or the positive side of human character--is gone, all is lost.

The question is: Can that moral babis be restored?

ravinraven

seeker_two
August 28, 2003, 05:44 AM
Cosmoline: Tort reform can be done in two steps....

1. If a plaintiff wins a lawsuit, plaintiff only receives ACTUAL damages. Any and ALL punitive damages are paid to a charity agreed to by the plaintiff, the defendant, and the court. If no agreement is possible, the court decides.

2. Loser pays all legal costs--including lawyer fees.

That'll thin the herd quite a bit... :D

jimpeel
August 28, 2003, 09:35 AM
... and if that charity is the Salvation Army ... ?

Jeeper
August 28, 2003, 09:57 AM
You want REAL tort reform? I'll tell you how to start

--Institute universal health care, or allow hospitals to turn away anyone unable to pay. I'll let you in on a great secret. Any of you who buy insurance have already been paying for universal health care.

--Eliminate punitive damages in all cases

--Ban liability insurance and make its sale a felony, as it once was

--Eliminate civil juries in all cases

--Prohibit the award of any damages not related to a tangible cost. No pain and suffering, no emotional harm.

--MOST OF ALL. Stop looking to plaintiff lawyers or the civil system for justice. For all the complaints about lawyers, greedy clients are equally to blame.

I think that it is always easy to say stuff like this until you need a court. Lets take for example the "elimination of punative damages" I would simply ask if you are fine getting absolutely nothing when some company, through gross negligence, kills your entire family with a faulty product. Say a propane valve that costs $2 breaks and there is an explosion and your entire family dies. Do you really think that the company should be able to get off with only paying $2. Punative damages are the only way to hold companies in line when they cant be criminally charged. Otherwise there is no incentive to follow the law.

I think that your ideas are ok if people and companies would actually try to do the right thing but that is very unrealistic. How do we make sure that people would be responsible? How would companies be held liable?

TallPine
August 28, 2003, 10:20 AM
One does not have to have religion to have morality.

Amen :D


Moreover, one does not have to have a particular religion to have morality.

treeprof
August 28, 2003, 11:20 AM
Companies don't pay fines and awards. Rather, consumers do, accounting for up to 50% of the cost of some items. If a company is subject to an excesive award, the price of widgets merely rises from, say, $2 to $3 in response.

Punitive damages are awarded in civil court, and have nothing to do with "following the law". Markets are very effective at eliminating sellers who produce faulty goods. That's the incentive.

You have to actually work in the civli court system to know how it operates in liability cases, and what kind of shape it's in. The effect of excessive civil awards on the price, configuration and availability of goods is astounding, but most people, and most especially juries (by design), fail to comprehend or consider it.

swifter
August 28, 2003, 11:54 AM
So what didja expect in a profession filled with lawyers?:confused:
The "cesspool theory" holds true here, too: The really rotten chunks float to the top...

Shakespeare had it right...:evil:

Tom

Cosmoline
August 28, 2003, 12:32 PM
Companies cannot kill anyone. People kill people. Corporations are legal constructs designed for pooling and protecting assets. So if somebody at a corporation murders another, they should be criminally punished.

The concept that corporations "murder" people through product design, etc. is a load of bravo sierra spun out by the plaintiff's bar. It's one of the many, many lies I was referring to. Public safety should be guaranteed through government oversight, not by privateer lawyers who lie for a living.

Puninitive damages assessed against corporations as "punishment" are paid by consumers. PERIOD.

Nearly all other damages are paid by everyone who buys insurance. PERIOD.

In the mean time, every time a dollar moves from one place to another, a lawyer is there to get a piece of it. This is what passes for justice.

Cosmoline
August 28, 2003, 12:45 PM
on its journal through the civil justice system.

Joe pays $1 to AAA insurance

Dan, another AAA insured, gets into an accident and smashes the fender of Pat

Pat goes to the ER and verifies no apparent injury, but continues treating with an orthopod, a physical therapist, a message therapist, a chiro, etc. etc.

Pat makes a claim against Dan's liability insurance

AAA's front line adjuster gives Pat the rough treatment, offering to pay half of the medical bills. ONE PENNY OF DOLLAR IS USED TO PAY ADJUSTER

Pat hires a lawyer, who sues Dan

AAA hires a lawyer for Dan. DAN'S LAWYER, OVER THE COURSE OF THE CASE, COLLECTS TEN CENTS OF THAT DOLLAR

After a year of arguing and discovery, the parties settle. THE REMAINDER OF THE DOLLAR GOES TO SETTLEMENT.

Let's break that settlement down. There are .89 cents left. .27 CENTS GO TO PAT'S ATTY FOR FEES. Now there are .62 cents left out of the dollar. So far not a single doctor or the injured plaintiff has seen a cent. Out of the .62 cents, the various health care providers claim another .32 cents. The remaining .30 cents goes to the plaintiff tax free.

Now, wouldn't it be better to simply eliminate the lawyers from this equation? That way, the dollar paid could all go to compensate for medical care, with only administrative costs. The only way to do it is to abolish liability insurance and most forms of civil damage, replacing it with universal health care. Either that or let people die on the street, it's up to you. But what we have now is an ancient legal system that's been slowly but surely twisted and bent so that it funnels money to those who claim injury. The lawyers take an enormous chunk of the money, which as far as I can tell serves no useful purpose for society. No other nation on Earth has ever had a system like this. It's insane. Patently insane. But it does make millions of lawyers very happy
:neener:

Jeeper
August 28, 2003, 01:12 PM
Companies cannot kill anyone. People kill people. Corporations are legal constructs designed for pooling and protecting assets. So if somebody at a corporation murders another, they should be criminally punished.

Who then is punished? The CEO who might not know? An assembly worker who might have an idea? The accountant? The engineer? Who would ever want to make a decision that would affect themselves? The real problem is that what happens at the corporation would never pass muster under any test for murder or manslaughter. Thusly no one would ever be punished. Thus your dead family is still only worth $2.

Companies don't pay fines and awards. Rather, consumers do, accounting for up to 50% of the cost of some items. If a company is subject to an excesive award, the price of widgets merely rises from, say, $2 to $3 in response.

Punitive damages are awarded in civil court, and have nothing to do with "following the law". Markets are very effective at eliminating sellers who produce faulty goods. That's the incentive.


I agree that consumers end up paying the cost. When some company gets sued a lot because they dont follow the law then their competition is better off. Thus the company who screwed up goes out of business.


I do see that no one answered my question about their family being worth $2. Even in a system of perfect companies and universal healthcare dont you think that people will still die due to company negligence. What about the victims? Should they get nothing? I am not saying that the settlements and verdicts arent too large. But they do need to exist. I always think it is funny that everyone thinks verdicts are too large but then they sit on a jury and give away money.

As for Universal healthcare. Look at Canada. 6 month waits for simple procedures. The rich all come to America for treatment.

treeprof
August 28, 2003, 01:51 PM
Companies do not get sued, seldom or a lot, in civil court because "they don't follow the law". That's a criminal court matter. A company may get sued if criminal wrongdoing caused civil damages, but that is not usually the cause for bringing suit against corporations in civil court. Making a faulty product is not necessarily, or even usually, against the law. And the definition of "faulty" or "negeligent" is very vague. Sometimes injury suffered while using a product for other than it's intended purpose is considered by plaintiffs and juries to be "faulty". That happens a lot with various chemicals, for example. Other times there may be raw material defects or some other cause of failure, rather than negligence. But even death from a faulty product is not "murder". Unless, perhaps, it was expressly designed, manufactured and sold to kill the user. You need to be more careful with your terms.

As far a person's worth, if they are not a wage earner (or have some other source of income dependant upon their existence), then their present economic (not inherent) worth is zero. A working person's future economic worth can be calculated based on their expected earnings, education, etc., and just compensation for their loss can then be awarded accordingly. Non-wage earners like children are another matter, and having a set upper limit for their loss (their inherent worth) would eliminate the outrageous sums awarded in some cases. People who wouldn't spend a couple of bucks a month for life insurance (which is designed to replace econmic, not inherent, loss upon death) for a loved one think nothing of seeking tens of millions of dollars for their loss in court. It's as tho the loved one had no economic worth before they died when it was the plaintiff's responsibility to pay, but somehow did afterward when they could get someone else to pay.

Cosmoline
August 28, 2003, 02:39 PM
It's all well and good to talk boldly about doing justice by punishing corporations. But a corporation is a legal fiction. It is a machine designed for distributing risk and loss, and guess what? Every penny paid out to that family is actually paid by the consumers in higher prices and higher insurance premiums. If someone has comitted a crime, let them be punished as a criminal. You cannot punish a corporation, expect perhaps by revoking its papers. And then you'll only punish investors.

On the damages end, the problem with awarding "soft" damages for pain and suffering, emotional distress, etc. is that this is the pool of assets used to prop up the plaintiff's bar. That's where the lawyer's money comes from, in big and small cases alike.

tyme
August 28, 2003, 03:07 PM
That's why it should come from the company's financial pool. Nobody was forced to give money to the corporation. They chose to. Creditors and those with equity in a company obviously have a stake in the company. Otherwise they would not do credit checks, due diligence, etc. There's no reason they should not also have a stake in the civil liability of the company. If you don't trust a company not to cover up a toxic chemical spill, don't lend them money, and don't invest.

The result of punitive damages is that the company's financials are slightly worsened, and public confidence in the company probably declines. That's motivation for those in the company not to be involved in questionable activities, because they would suffer.

Of course, if nothing deters anyone from doing anything questionable or outright illegal, there's no point in having any punitive damages at all. I think financially motivated crimes can be deterred to some extent.

Orthonym
August 28, 2003, 03:08 PM
That is, limited liability !

tyme
August 28, 2003, 03:10 PM
Limited personal liability doesn't mean that assets people choose to give or lend the company should be protected as well, if that's what you're trying to imply.

Cosmoline
August 28, 2003, 06:05 PM
Your arguments make sense as to compensatory damages. Indeed, I'm not arguing corporations can't be sued and forced to compensate in tort or contract. They can, that's one of their roles. But to PUNISH a corporation is a non-sequitur. It can't be punished because it's a fiction, a legal and financial device for allocating risk and reward. It's like saying you're going to punish a bank account. It makes no sense.

If you enjoyed reading about "American Legal System Is Corrupt Beyond Recognition" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!