1911 + 16" barrel + folding stock = .45acp Rifle


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22/22mag
June 25, 2008, 11:58 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/skinnygun/Mini003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/skinnygun/Mini004.jpg

With a scope mount.

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Jimmie
June 25, 2008, 11:59 PM
Wow. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Interesting at least.

sarduy
June 26, 2008, 12:02 AM
exotic

Logan5
June 26, 2008, 12:03 AM
Reminds me of the woman in that Frost poem who could make her coffe table rear up and kick like an army mule. As she said;
"...and when I've done it, what good have I done?"

Claude Clay
June 26, 2008, 12:24 AM
verrrrry interesting
does it lock up in the closed position such that it can be fired? and would a 10 stick fit with it closed? is it as accurate as before it morphed?

chris in va
June 26, 2008, 12:29 AM
No reinforcement on that stock hinge. Better be REALLY careful not to apply too much force when shouldering.

Ohio Rifleman
June 26, 2008, 12:29 AM
I've seen that thing in catalogues. Are you really getting that much extra velocity out of the .45acp? And is it worth taking a perfectly good pistol and turning it into and awkward, and probably poorly balanced "carbine?" I think not.

Still 2 Many Choices!?
June 26, 2008, 12:33 AM
Well, if it locks in the folded position, you could use the stock as a forward grip. It is atleast an innovative idea that could lead to an even cooler dedicated to this idea platform. I like it.

Still 2 Many Choices!?

jrfoxx
June 26, 2008, 01:22 AM
I thought putting a shoulder stock on a handgun was illegal (except for the broomhandle mausers with their original (not reproduction) stock)? Does that not apply if you install a 16" or longer barrel first? also, if you still have the normal pistol barrel, couldn't they say that since you have the short barrel, and the butt-stock, you have "constructive possession" of an SBR, or whatever a handgun becomes when you add a shoulder stock, thus meaning you need to get rid of the normal barrel to be 100% safe?

Not trying to spoil the fun, or imply the OP broke the law, or would knowingly do that, just curious, as I have seen the kits and such, and can never seem to keep all the NFA rules straight, since the make even less sense than "regular" gun laws.

22/22mag
June 26, 2008, 02:06 AM
Hi all state police said legal in Oregon, the stock extended is strong and I hold the pistol with a 2 handed grip the same as without the stock.Shoots well with the 10 rd mag and stock pressed against my shoulder very steady shooting.Seems more accuracy as a rifle at longer range.The stock + barrel can be removed and back to a normal 1911 in a few minutes.Makes a great back pack rifle or under the seat truck gun .

The Kimber Poly 14 + 1 on my Mech Tech unit. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/skinnygun/IMG_3005.jpg.It only takes about 1 1/2 minute to change the Kimber Poly back to a 1911 pistol .



For a carry .45 acp I will use the Sig 220 or Springfield bi-tone 1911.Both Kimbers were sitting in safe now fun .45 acp shooters.

nalioth
June 26, 2008, 02:16 AM
I thought putting a shoulder stock on a handgun was illegal (except for the broomhandle mausers with their original (not reproduction) stock)? Does that not apply if you install a 16" or longer barrel first? also, if you still have the normal pistol barrel, couldn't they say that since you have the short barrel, and the butt-stock, you have "constructive possession" of an SBR, or whatever a handgun becomes when you add a shoulder stock, thus meaning you need to get rid of the normal barrel to be 100% safe?The OPs setup is entirely legal.

Under the federal laws, you can convert a pistol into a rifle (and back again, WHEEEEE), but can't convert a rifle into a pistol.

So long as you add your 16" barrel BEFORE you attach the stock, you're fine (and as long as you have a matching 16" barrel for your shoulder stock).

These kits have been selling for decades.

Titan6
June 26, 2008, 03:15 AM
Okay that gets my vote for ugliest gun of the year.

But the important thing is how does it shoot?

justin 561
June 26, 2008, 03:24 AM
I thought putting a shoulder stock on a handgun was illegal

http://a1.vox.com/6a00c225264172549d00d4143590d93c7f-500pi

jrfoxx
June 26, 2008, 04:46 AM
So long as you add your 16" barrel BEFORE you attach the stock, you're fine (and as long as you have a matching 16" barrel for your shoulder stock).

Thats what I thought, as far as the 16" barrel and stock having to go together, and the barrel technically had to go on first (though they have a pretty hard time proving differently unless the ATF was watching AS you set it up).

I just wasnt real sure if you had to ditch the short barrel or not, so they couldnt say, "well, you have a butt-stock for a pistol, and a pistol barrel for the same gun, so you could make an illegal gun", Or saying that if you have a second 1911 the stock wuld fit on, but the barrel wouldnt, so you could make a illegal SBR with the stock on the other 1911.

similar, but slightly different from how owning a non-nfa registered DIAS or lightning link is perfectly legal if you dont own an AR, but if you do, even if you never had them within 100yds of each other, they could still charge you because you could make an illegal MG with it.

Just wasnt real sure on the details, since the NFA, or at least the ATF interprets and enforces it, is kinda whacky and makes little sense sometimes.Sadly, jus tcause something is for sale openly, all over the place, doesnt mean its legal to use, or even legal to own, in some circumstances.(again, DIAS and lightning links are agood example. They are often for sale on the net, or at gun shows cheap, but if you buy one, and you AR isnt a registered MG, you now have an illegal MG.

I do now recall reading that the key difference seems to be whether or not you have a LEGAL way to use everythng, vs having 2 perfectly legal things, (legal AR, and legal non-regitered LL/DIAS), but no legal use for the DIAS/LL, since you dont have a registered MG to put it in, but have an AR it could go in, so now you have an unregistered MG.

Whole NFA just needs to go.No point to it.


justin 561-not sure if your kidding or what, but as mentioned, putting a shoulder stock on a handgun with a barrel under 16" is illegal. it becomes a short barreled rifle. You need to add a 16" or longer barrel to it FIRST. The only exception I know of is the Mauser C96 (I think the Contenders are similar too, but that there may be some sort of "catch" with those. There was a discussion on here about them a while ago, and an ATF letter that noted the distinction), and even then, it has to be an original stock. You cant buy or make a reproduction one and install it, as that would then be illegal.Dumb, but what NFA related thing isnt? Kinda like a rifle with a foreward grip is fine, and a handgun is fine, but put a foreward grip on a handgun and go to prison.Cause, you know, the grip on a handgun makes it a baby killer, but on a rifle, it makes it shoot rainbows.....

Erinyes
June 26, 2008, 05:09 AM
I believe some of the early BHPs that came with shoulder stocks and the Luger artillery models are also exempt. Don't quote me on that, though.

jrfoxx
June 26, 2008, 05:15 AM
I think you may be right about the Artillery Luger's at least, that does sound familiar. Dont know about BHP's. They arent really my thing.

Also, forgot to mention, back on topice, I always thought the kits like the OP has were interesting. Alsways wondered how comfortable they are, and if there was really much to gain. It's cool to get the OP's 1st hand account on one, as I had never heard a review of them from someone who tried it.I can see the benifit of it as a pack gun, like the OP mentioned.Pretty neat.

critter
June 26, 2008, 07:44 AM
Just because something CAN be done does not mean that it SHOULD be done. (Tongue firmly implanted in cheek.)

DrDremel
July 5, 2008, 08:55 PM
22/22mag, If you would ever like to sell that stock, please contact me. I am looking for one for a 1911a1 pistol registered as a short barreled rifle and I really want a stock like that. I have been unable to find one. If you know where to get one please let me know.

Drdremel
drdremel at hotmail dot com

nalioth
July 5, 2008, 09:02 PM
I think the Contenders are similar too, but that there may be some sort of "catch" with those. Yes, the 'catch' is that you apply a 16" barrel before you affix the buttstock.

Don't have a 16" contender barrel but do have a contender buttstock? Johnny Law might find that interesting...

ScottsGT
July 5, 2008, 09:26 PM
I read somewhere that the BATFE ruling (written letter) on the converting to a rifle and back was only in reference to the Contender Pistols, and any other weapon would now be considered a "rifle only" once converted.
BIG discussion over this subject over on AR15.com about AR pistols and slapping on a buttstock and long upper for rifle shooting. Seemed some guys didn't want to invest in two different lowers.

nalioth
July 5, 2008, 09:37 PM
I read somewhere that the BATFE ruling (written letter) on the converting to a rifle and back was only in reference to the Contender Pistols, and any other weapon would now be considered a "rifle only" once converted. If you bought it as a pistol, you can go back and forth as often as you like.

Bet ya money there's a ATF letter that says the exact opposite out there somewhere . . .

22/22mag
July 6, 2008, 12:50 AM
DrDremel
I found the folding stock on ebay and the 16" barrel from one of the gun parts suppliers been awhile don't recall who.I have seen them pop up in ads sometimes.I could get a 1911 40rd drum mag for fun.Plan on keeping the stock.

The long barrel 1911 with stock is a great shooter easy to use it as a short range rifle with a red dot or scope and fold away flat for storage.

alemonkey
July 6, 2008, 12:57 AM
I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Snapping Twig
July 6, 2008, 01:27 AM
I actually shot one like the one 22/22mag has in his picture.

Hit the 100 yard gong every time I pulled the trigger.

Kind of neat with a little delay between shot and sound.

RevolvingCylinder
July 8, 2008, 03:18 PM
How is the accuracy of the first one? I like it. I don't care for the scope mount/grip panel though. I'd rather have a wooden stock that easily attaches/detaches to a custom MSH. Gives me an idea for a stock/holster like the Mauser "broomhandle". Registering it as an SBR(could that be done with a pistol frame or would that have to be worked out with a manufacturer like Caspian?) would be really nice.

hankdatank1362
July 8, 2008, 04:24 PM
Does the long barrel negatively affect reliability? I'm thinking that the extra weight acting like a lever could screw with the short recoil system.

KiltedClaymore
July 8, 2008, 06:06 PM
i gotta say, the OP's pic made me laugh. good idea, could use refinement. because, no offence as this is just my oppinion, it looks kinda silly righ now.

younganddumb
July 8, 2008, 06:20 PM
I like the kimber one a lot better IMO

Gunner4h1r3
July 8, 2008, 06:27 PM
the 40 round drum is a POS (prior experience). Darned thing failed to feed every other round.

kcshooter
July 8, 2008, 11:23 PM
The stock appears to be set at a poor angle. After 10-12" of barrel, the 45acp begins to slow back down, becoming less effective. It also is not going to be able to reach out far enough accurately to have any use for a scope, especially after the long barrel drops it's speed.

(Plus it's ugly)

H088
July 8, 2008, 11:24 PM
Is there any purpose or advantage to this over a "normal" rifle? Or is it for the cool factor?

HB
July 9, 2008, 12:26 AM
Me Finks it's pretty cool, but I don't think I'd buy one. It's greatest advantage (disadvantage?) is that it probably weighs about 3 pounds! I would want a solid stock tho:)

HB

waverace
July 12, 2008, 04:41 AM
Hmm not sure what to think :rolleyes: would be interested to find out more about the contender situation though bought mine used with rifle and pistol barrels , obviously if i fit the butt stock on the pistol barrel i have an sbr , am i ok as long as i have both barrels and only put it together as one or the other ? how about a pistol with a 23" barrel ?
without wishing to incriminate myself here , i have shot my 14" 7-30 waters as a rifle , super accurate ! oops just did:p
you didnt see me you cant prove it i was never there:evil:

RaspberrySurprise
July 12, 2008, 06:26 AM
It's a good thing John Moses Browning is dead, or he'd likely be beating you to death right now for what you've done to one of his pistols.

But as long as it makes you happy and won't get you tossed in the jug for ten years have at it, you never know what great thing you might invent when your tinkering.

CajunBass
July 12, 2008, 06:53 AM
Man. You wanna talk about an answer just begging for a question. :D

Carl N. Brown
July 12, 2008, 07:18 AM
ATF has a FAQ on their website with common questions like this, and a Curio and Relic list. Even tho the FAQ said my original Mauser Broomhandle would be legal with a reproduction shoulder stock (dup of orginal) I got a letter from ATF FTB JIC.

nalioth
July 12, 2008, 12:57 PM
how about a pistol with a 23" barrel ? There is no legal limit on how long a pistol barrel can be.

Carl N. Brown
July 15, 2008, 06:53 AM
OK, I got a letter from ATF FTB matching the ATF posting at the ATF website FAQ:

(Paraphrasing) An original Mauser Broomhandle is a curio and relic, and may be owned legally as a pistol with an original shoulder stock or an accurate replica of an original shoulder stock.

A new broomhandle pistol build on a new frame from an original parts set is a new pistol, not a curio or relic, and must follow all NFA rules: an original shoulderstock or repro would constitute a short barrel rifle SBR and require federal registration.

And if I read the regs correctly, an original Mauser Broomhandle pistol with a new shoulder stock that is not an accurate replica of an original would constitute a SBR under NFA.

Red Tornado
July 15, 2008, 10:52 AM
I guess it would steady the pistol, but without a cheek weld, can you aim it accurately? Without the increased steadiness of a cheek weld, is it 'really' a viable carbine? I'd love to try one myself, but I'll trust your assessment.
Thanks,
RT

Blacksmoke
July 15, 2008, 11:00 AM
Why would someone take a perfectly good Model 1911 and do that to it?
IF you want a .45 ACP carbine buy a Thompson Model 1927 A1 made by Kahr or the former real Auto Ordinance Company.

Deer Hunter
July 15, 2008, 11:04 AM
'Cause they can, Blacksmoke.

I've seen these kits in Sportsman's Guide magazines. Looked pretty interesting.

DrDremel
July 19, 2008, 10:31 AM
Actually, JMB had a folding stock on the pistol that became the HiPower. Until the NFA law was created, shoulder stocks on pistols wer much more common. What killed the idea was a $200 tax on a $50 or less gun. I have a 1911a1 that is NFA registered as a short barreled rifle. With the pistol barrel and a folding stock, it will make a nice compact carbine. If you have ever fired a Luger or Broomhandle Mauser with a stock at distances of over 100 yards, you will find that they are quite useful. I have made hits on a milk jug at 200 yards with one.

I'm still looking for a stock for my 1911.

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