Can you still get armor piercing bullets for pistols?


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HANDLOADER
June 26, 2008, 03:45 PM
:confused:Used to have a buddy till he died that shoot armor piercing bullets in a 357 mag never would give any to me or tell me where he go them. Best I rember they were factory made bullets not some of his make. So if any one can help I would be most grateful.

We won DC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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rcmodel
June 26, 2008, 03:48 PM
No. They were outlawed years ago under Teddy Kennedy & Cronies "Cop Killer" bullet ban.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teflon_coated_bullet

rcmodel

Walkalong
June 26, 2008, 03:52 PM
No such thing ever available to reloaders. A couple were labled as such so the media could scare folks.

rondog
June 26, 2008, 04:02 PM
I had a box of "armor piercing" .357's probably 28 years ago. Probably Federals. Don't know if they actually WERE A/P, never tried it. But I shot a bigazz water moccasin with one, and it did a number on it!

I also remember a neighbor that was a cop, and he had some of the same rounds on his duty belt. I can remember him telling me they were a/p for stopping cars, by busting the engine block.

rcmodel
June 26, 2008, 04:15 PM
What you had were probably Remington .357 Highway-Masters.

They were in actuality just a lead core FMJ pointed bullet designed to shoot through car doors & trunks better then the soft swaged lead .357 bullets of the day.

The were not all they were cracked up to be, and were certainly not armor piercing rounds.

rcmodel

Walkalong
June 26, 2008, 04:29 PM
Get some bullets designed for Silhouette shooting. They will hang together pretty good.

chubbmann
June 26, 2008, 05:19 PM
http://www.hi-vel.com/index.html

expensive but fun looking to say the least....

Bandit01
June 26, 2008, 05:20 PM
but honestly, why would you want them? Yeah they sound cool but overly effective. Like are you really going to stand in front of an approaching vehicle and shoot at it to crack the engine block?

HANDLOADER
June 26, 2008, 05:46 PM
I want them because I can have them and yes if it comes down to it I will stand in front of a moving vehical and bust the engine out.

Crazy I know.

SilentArmy
June 26, 2008, 09:00 PM
It IS a federal felony to manufacture AP ammo for a handgun! I will stick to the fun of shooting standard loads for now rather than the fun with my cellmate for ten yrs in a Fed facility! I do sometimes worry about getting mugged by a fellow in a tank though.:rolleyes:

Clark
June 26, 2008, 09:50 PM
I did a search of the government's document:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

It may be illegal to manufacture, import, or sell armor piercing ammo. It may be extra illegal to commit felony drug violations while carrying amour piercing ammo, but there is nothing making armor piercing ammo illegal, that I can find.

Now that the 1994-2005 assault weapons ban expired:)

SilentArmy
June 26, 2008, 10:08 PM
That search function is cool but you must also Read the code! 478.37 pertains specifically to AP Ammo and its manufacture. I have been in the black helicopters and prefer they not come to my house!
Try that search on the definition of "manufacuture" to see if it would also mean making same!:eek:
I am just teasing as I speak in sarcasm but how is making NOT manufacture?

xx7grant7x
June 26, 2008, 10:35 PM
you can buy AP 5.7x28 rounds that were made before the ban or somehow escaped LEO control on gunbroker sometimes and if you have a 5-7 pistol you'd have ap pistol ammo but it'd be expensive and.....expensive......probably no engine block killers either

Clark
June 27, 2008, 01:56 AM
That search function is cool but you must also Read the code! 478.37 pertains specifically to AP Ammo and its manufacture. I have been in the black helicopters and prefer they not come to my house!
Try that search on the definition of "manufacture" to see if it would also mean making same!
I am just teasing as I speak in sarcasm but how is making NOT manufacture?

I am not dumb enough to tell someone on the internet not to worry about something, once they started worrying.

But I will say, that it is illegal to manufacture imported assault weapons per the 89 Bush ban, a law that never expired. It is a felony. Go to a big gun store or big gun show, and you can see on display, felony violations.

Notice how you never see any felony violations for possession?
Like sawed off shotgun? sawed off rifles? Silencers? Fully automatic?

There are BATF agent walking around incognito at the shows, but they never bust the manufacture felony materials.

There is also the problem that handloading is not manufacture.
I know that half the debaters on the internet think that it is, and half think that it isn't, but I am not aware of a single conviction.
Even during the 10 years when 308 AP ammo was illegal to manufacture, no one got arrested that I know about. And there were 30-06 AP bullets going into handloads for half the 308 FALs on FALFILES.

But then plenty of people believe in not carrying handloads, man made global warming is a serious threat, 911 was an inside job, big foot is out there, all politicians are really aliens from outer space, etc. And strangely, non of my posts ever dissuade them of anything:)
...So I would be fool to tell them not to worry.

ashtxsniper
June 27, 2008, 02:14 AM
I have heard of people making them by taking a hardened rod of brass or steel and putting it in a lathe. You then turn it down to a sharp point. You can put the steel ones in sabots or mold them inside lead bullets to protect the rifling. The brass ones are fine to shoot by themselves if the diameter is the right size. I have never tried this nor do I intend to but I have heard claims to such so I dont know how much truth there is to this.

rcmodel
June 27, 2008, 11:47 AM
Standard .357 & .44 Mag jacketed or cast lead bullets will bust engine blocks just fine. The trick is to hit the thin water jacket sections of the block and let the water out.

Truth be known, nothing you can fire one-handed can be relied on to "Bust an engine block" though.

Just getting a shot past the wheel & tire, fender well, steering column, frame, motor mounts, and assorted & sundry junk like power steering & AC pumps & brackets, alternators, smog canisters, etc. make shooting a modern car engine from the side problematic, even with .308 armor piercing.

But from the front, a .22 LR will do as well, if you shoot the radiator full of holes and let the water out.

rcmodel

RyanM
June 27, 2008, 12:26 PM
478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.

No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:

(a) The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;

(b) The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or

(c) The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of 478.149.

However, "armor piercing ammunition" is defined as:

Projectiles or projectile cores which may be used in a handgun and which are constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or full jacketed projectiles larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. The term does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, frangible projectiles designed for target shooting, projectiles which the Director finds are primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectiles or projectile cores which the Director finds are intended to be used for industrial purposes, including charges used in oil and gas well perforating devices.

Whether or not the bullet actually can pierce armor is irrelevant. Any bullet will pierce armor if it goes fast enough, anyway. So just don't make a bullet out of those materials, or an FMJ with a really heavy jacket (you'll notice that "Punch Bullets", made for hunting heavy game, have a very small hole drilled in the tip of the jacket, so they're technically JHPs and not FMJ, even though they never actually expand).

So a copper bullet would be fine. Titanium alloy, hard aluminum alloy, zinc alloy, cobalt alloy, whatever. If it's hard enough to damage barrel steel, slap a thin layer of lead and a copper jacket on it, like steel core ammunition. If it's not on that list, it's not armor-piercing.

That's for Federal law, anyway. State and local might be different. Like PA defines armor-piercing ammunition as any ammunition which will in fact pierce level IIA body armor. So pretty much all centerfire rifle FMJ ammo is armor-piercing in PA. But it's only illegal to possess or use armor-piercing ammunition (by that definitio) during the commission of a crime.

dastardly-D
June 27, 2008, 12:43 PM
Wasn't there some ''nyclad'' bullets a while back that they wouldn't allow us dumb civilians to have ?

rcmodel
June 27, 2008, 01:36 PM
See the second post in this thread.

rcmodel

brighamr
June 27, 2008, 03:40 PM
If you really want armor piercing, buy a 50BMG. I think it will be more effective (with regular ball ammo) than any pistol round.

BattleChimp Potemkin
June 27, 2008, 03:51 PM
Looked at the "Hi Vel" site. How many times do we have to say it to people: SS109 IS NOT armor piercing. Its not considered armor piercing nor is it "tungsten carbide". Its like saying 55gr FMJ is armor piercing. It will pierce armor, but it is not considered Armor piercing.

A buzz word that is used to sell and ban guns in a single motion. Teflon/Nylon doesnt make a round pass through armor, the round makes the round pass through armor. In one hand, I have people selling to the Fudds using these words or phrases and on the other hand, I have the Brady crew using those same words to villify guns in general.

rcmodel
June 27, 2008, 04:00 PM
"Nyclad" bullets were an early attempt by S&W, and later Federal, at lead-free training ammo for LE use.

The Teflon coating on the KTW "Cop-Killer", "AP bullet" was used to reduce barrel wear & increase velocity from the solid-brass bullet.

rcmodel

ForneyRider
June 27, 2008, 05:25 PM
I thought military used depleted uranium for armor piercing rounds?

What about the tungsten rounds? I think Woodleigh makes them.

rcmodel
June 27, 2008, 05:39 PM
The military uses depleted uranium for 30mm GAU-8/A Gatling gun cannon shells on the A-10 Warthog.

Normal small-arms AP contains a tool steel or tungsten core penetrator inside a lead sheath & copper jacket.

I don't know about Woodleigh, but Speer makes a bullet for african dangerous game with a tungston core.
But it is not designed for armor penetration.

http://www.gunaccessories.com/Speer/African%20GrandSlamRifleBullets.asp core

rcmodel

dalepres
June 28, 2008, 04:14 PM
But I will say, that it is illegal to manufacture imported assault weapons per the 89 Bush ban, a law that never expired

I'm just curious how one manufactures an imported assault weapon - unless the BATFE is reaching outside our borders now.

Clark
July 3, 2008, 01:25 AM
Quote:
But I will say, that it is illegal to manufacture imported assault weapons per the 89 Bush ban, a law that never expired
I'm just curious how one manufactures an imported assault weapon - unless the BATFE is reaching outside our borders now.

http://www.rifletech.com/compliant_parts.htm

You cannot build an AK or FAL from more than 10 of a list of imported parts, since 1989.

Understanding and interpreting this law has burned up allot of gun owner energy and discussion, but I only know of a handful of prosecutions in two decades.

jjohnson
July 3, 2008, 10:58 AM
*sigh* Okay, so can't buy true armor piercing ammunition by regular means or manufacture it without risking running afoul of the law. :scrutiny:

If what you really want is handgun ammo that can go through a lot of "armor," I guess that depends on what the armor is. You can always load your military FMJ bullets on the warm side (and I do mean within what the loading manuals list). For instance, a 230 grain FMJ loaded in .45 Colt for Ruger or T/C Contender would go through a lot of whatever you're shooting at, as would a Woodleigh bullet.

If all you're doing is shooting through 2x4s or something, you'd be surprised at what military surplus 7.62 Tokarev will do. :what:

Honsetly, though, I can't think of a use for either that's all that practical, but then, I know guys who feel the same way about machineguns and silencers.
Don't go looking for trouble, huh? Enough of it will find you anyway.

First Big Foot
January 19, 2009, 11:36 AM
I think they are illegal for civilian use.
But I remember Massa Ayoub writing of a police officer who was shot while wearing Armor with a .45-70. While the "armor" wasn't pierced, the bullet pushed it to his spine like a funnel. The impact caused hemoroids in his brain. The officer didn't survive.

These are the things that scare the anti-gunners, who cannot compare the millions who would die if no one had guns against the thousand or so murders while we have them.

You should probably do your research quietly instead of in a public forum.

Afy
January 19, 2009, 01:14 PM
First Big Foot...

I am sorry... but an impact causing hemmoroids in the brain is downright funny.

No offence to the poor LEO or anyone else.

Afy
January 19, 2009, 01:15 PM
BTW isnt the .338 LPM designed to penentrate a Class II jacket at 1500 meters?

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