7.62x39 defense ammo?


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-v-
June 28, 2008, 02:43 AM
Hey all, so I recently picked up my first rifle, a decent looking Romak991 with normal furniture. I've been looking about for some decent HP home defense ammo. From what little I've learned so far is that JSP are a reasonable choice. Brass-fetcher's gel of the federal 123g JSP do look impressive. The other choice that I am curious about is the Bear and Wolf JHP offerings. I've scoured the 'net, but I haven't been able to find any gel-o results for either of these. Do any of you guys have any experience with these lines as far as their expansion and penetration goes?

One thing that concerns me, is from one of the links, it showed that Wolf JHP has a steel jacket with a .008" copper plating. Will a steel jacket reliably expand? Also as I understand most of the currently offered 7.62x39 is of the M67 ball verity. Is it safe to trust to the fragmentation/tumbling of M67? Some people say its equivalent to 5.56x45, but I've not seen any definitive tests either. Any help is appreciated.

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gtmerkley
June 28, 2008, 02:45 AM
Try some extreme shock with power ball and i'm not talking Lotto.

chris in va
June 28, 2008, 02:48 AM
I just use the American softpoint 'hunting' ammo and call it good. Less chance of overpenetration.

Picard
June 28, 2008, 02:48 AM
I heard that for hunting, Wolf Military Classic JHP expands great and has excellent wound channels. Also looking at the price, I would recommend it. If it isn't good for defense, you can always use it for target practice or even hunting.

bang_bang
June 28, 2008, 03:00 AM
I've cycled several rounds of JHP through my SKS and found out that when shooting white pines approximately 2-1/2 ft diameter, it takes about 5 trees in a row to stop a JHP from 25 yards. If you're talking about home defense, I really wouldn't want to live near your house. There isn't a lot of JHP or SP ammunition that you can feed these weapons that will not over-penetrate.

If you're more concerned about stopping power/wound size, SP or JHP will leave a mark.

BammaYankee
June 28, 2008, 03:19 AM
A few years ago I bought some 7.62x39 ammo from D&S Mfg. that were loaded with Hornady VMAX's. These are awesome hd or hunting loads! I haven't seen them offered since, but I think Cabelas has similar loads for sale sometimes.

SnakeLogan
June 28, 2008, 11:36 AM
Winchester FMJ will do the job just fine.

hankdatank1362
June 28, 2008, 11:47 AM
Try some extreme shock with power ball and i'm not talking Lotto.

Oh man I hope that was a joke.

I've cycled several rounds of JHP through my SKS and found out that when shooting white pines approximately 2-1/2 ft diameter, it takes about 5 trees in a row to stop a JHP from 25 yards.

So, you mean 7.69x39 out of your sks will penetrate 12.5 feet of solid wood? :scrutiny:

I heard that for hunting, Wolf Military Classic JHP expands great and has excellent wound channels. Also looking at the price, I would recommend it.
+1

briansmithwins
June 28, 2008, 11:50 AM
Try Corbon DPX. Expensive but you get a bullet that's the best.

Whatever you do, make sure that the ammo you plan on using works in YOUR rifle. Nobody else has your rifle and what works in one may not work in another. Case in point, I've got some EG short range training ammo, it functions 100% in some of my magazines, and chokes 50% in others. Other people will have different experiences.

BSW

rbernie
June 28, 2008, 11:54 AM
The Russian SP ammo does OK, if you're on a budget; at least it sheds it jacket quickly. It'll produce better wound channels than the HP fodder.

JShirley
June 28, 2008, 12:07 PM
Go get some empty milk jugs. Fill with water and cap them. Line them up.

Shoot them with ammunition you've found to be reliable and reasonably accurate.

Understand that penetration in water will be deeper, and expansion larger, than in tissue, but this will give you a decent idea of what your cartridge can do. Personally, I want about 3 milk jugs penetration for SD (with less than 2 being too shallow, and more than 4 being too much), and 4-6 for hunting deer-sized game.

John

brooks
June 28, 2008, 12:14 PM
A Russian brand Barnual has HP and I found them probably more accurate than Wolf. I got mine through Sportsman's Guide.

R.W.Dale
June 28, 2008, 12:26 PM
OMG! It's a rifle people even with the cheapest ammunition it's only about 600% more effective than the best handgun ammunition made today. Just pick an ammo that shoots good and functions reliable and roll with it.

jlbraun
June 28, 2008, 12:36 PM
Cor-Bon DPX is a good bullet from what I hear.

Ratshooter
June 28, 2008, 01:05 PM
Krocus you are absolutely correct. I just hope the OP who ask the question is trying to find a round to minimize penetration.

My cousin was messing with his dads rifle, An 8mm Mauser and managed to fire the gun in the house. The bullet went through several interior walls, through the brick veneer, through the brick veneer on the neighbors house and stopped after a couple of interior walls. That was with soft point hunting ammo.

I don't think i would feel comfortable shooting a full blown rifle in a house. A 223 with varmint ammo maybe. Maybe not.

P.S. My cousin isn't trusted with guns right now.

-v-
June 28, 2008, 02:09 PM
Ratshooter: That is exactly my intent. I realized that most any ammunition in 7.62x39 is an effective round. However, I am interested in my shots stopping in the attacker, not the neighbor's bedroom, as has been your cousin's unfortunate experience.

HorseSoldier
June 28, 2008, 02:23 PM
I'd recommend getting a shotgun, then.

Even with good training and proficiency with the weapon, you're likely to sling some rounds in a life and death situation, so if you have concerns about where stray bullets might go, you should plan on it happening, and what your defensive load, whatever it might be, is going to do when it doesn't have a bad guy to slow it down or start it yawing.

RyanM
June 28, 2008, 02:28 PM
Wolf Military Classic 124 gr JHP is what you want. Ulyanovsk uses a good bullet. They must use a pretty soft steel for the jacket, because it performs on par with the domestic JSPs. Here's the jello data I found:

Lapua 125 gr JSP, 16" barrel
2316 fps
17.3" penetration
0.62" expanded diameter
122.6 gr retained weight

Winchester 123 gr JSP, 16" barrel
2253 fps
14.4" penetration
0.56" expanded diameter
110.6 gr retained weight

Ulyanovsk (WMC/Sapsan) 124 gr JHP, 16" barrel
2297 fps
15.0" penetration
0.63" expanded diameter
100.5 gr retained weight

Federal Classic Hi-Shok 123 gr JHP, 20" barrel
2254 fps
14.0" penetration
0.632" expanded diameter
93.7 gr retained weight

Tula (Wolf Performance) 154 gr JSP, 20" barrel
2095 fps
A buttload of penetration (over 16.3" in one test, over 20" in another; using MacPherson's equations, I get 23.3")
0.476" expanded diameter
114.7 gr retained weight

_N4Z_
June 28, 2008, 02:44 PM
I am interested in my shots stopping in the attacker, not the neighbor's bedroom, as has been your cousin's unfortunate experience.

At home defense distances, we will say well under 50 yards, this is not realistic. x39 at such a short range, even in soft point, will likely pass through a two legged target and keep right on going.

12ga w/ 00buck is the king of this hill. If x39 is your only option then go with the softpoint, and do your best to know what is behind your target.

Ratshooter
June 28, 2008, 02:51 PM
V good luck on your ammo search. Let us know what you end up with and the results of any performance testing you do.

I think it is on this sight that someone posted pictures of wild pigs shot with 7.62x39 ammo. I think he used a mini 30. There were photos of his wife who hunts and i think he was from Georgia. Maybe he'll read this and post a link.

As to my cousin, that happened many years ago. But if you want to see a room full of aunts and uncles disappear all you have to do is let my cousin pick up a gun. It makes you think the rapture just happened.

strat81
June 28, 2008, 03:55 PM
Do a search for "sapsan bullet" in Google (no quotes). Draw your own conclusions.

JShirley
June 28, 2008, 04:13 PM
I'd recommend getting a shotgun, then.

This makes NO sense. You have much better control of your rounds with a carbine. I remember one of P. Kokalis' complaints regarding the inexpensive 7.62x39mm HP years ago was that they didn't penetrate enough. Go try them in water or soaked newsprint. I think you may find that penetration and expansion may be ideal for your needs.

All other things being equal, a heavy for caliber bullet is going to penetrate more deeply than a light for caliber bullet. 8x57mms are typically heavy bullets, while a 124 grain .311 bullet is very light for caliber.

J

MTMilitiaman
June 28, 2008, 04:25 PM
I just hope the OP who ask the question is trying to find a round to minimize penetration.

Minimizing penetration is the worst thing you can do in a home defense scenerio. I don't know where all this hype behind over penetration came from, but if you'll note that professionals don't buy it and still adher to minimum penetration standards rather than maximum penetration standards, then you can understand that penetration is your friend. Too much penetration can be dangerous, true. But not enough will get you killed, and it is far easier to get too little penetration than too much.

The FBI requires at least 12 inches of penetration, even after penetrating heavy clothing, rolled steel, or windshield auto glass. You think they do this because they want minimum penetration? Or because they have lost agents do to just that and set protocols to avoid it in the future? They as well as myself both like 14 to 16 inches rather than just 12.

The bullet must be able to reach the vitals regardless of what shot angle, muscle or bone tissue, or other obstacles it encounters.

When you consider the majority of Americans are overweight and 1/3 of them are obese, why would you work to minimize penetration? Because some mall ninja who has never shot living things with a gun recommends varmint bullets in a .223 or birdshot in a shotgun?

I have shot living things with these loads, and while impressive on small game, they were obviously not ever intended to be used on larger, more dangerous game, such as humans. Some people must be able to guarantee that the bad guy in their living room will be one of the ones that isn't overweight, and that shot presentation will be the ideal frontal shot as on the range, and that the bullet won't be required to penetrate a forearm, heavy clothing, and several inches of fat tissue, muscle, and bone before entering the chest cavity and beginning its job. I, however, can make none of these guarantees, so I load to get enough penetration on big guys, even with less than ideal shot presentation.

In 7.62x39, any M67 pattern ball round will work, even if not ideal. My experience shows the 122 gr Wolf FMJ has an air pocket in the forward 1/3 length of its nose to induce rapid yawing. In gelatin, this bullet typically begins yawing within the first 4 to 6 inches of tissue, verses 8+ inches in the original M43 ball round. My single experience with this bullet on game was a broadside shot at a small (~140 pounds live weight) white tail doe from about 50 yards. The bullet entered behind the onside shoulder and exited through the offside scapula sideways, leaving an oblong exit wound with scattered bone fragments and other nastiness. The doe made it 40 to 50 feet, curled up under a tree, and died. My limited experience shows this load to actually do more damage than a .223 caliber 55 gr Winchester soft point at the same range. The bullet will, nevertheless, still penetrate 14+ inches of pine and still be lethal. So as with everything else, misses will be a lot more dangerous to bystanders than those that hit the bad guy.

The Wolf 122 gr JHP, in my experience, fragments rapidly in water. I've never shot anything larger than a ground squirrel with them. When I have the choice, I keep JHPs in my AK for self defense rather than FMJs, but I've had them both loaded next to the head of my bed at one point or another. As the testing results posted by another poster indicate, most of these loads still penetrate 12+ inches in gelatin, but anything that manages to exit the body will more than likely lack sufficient energy to penetrate several interior walls or exit the building. This can not be said to the same degree about the FMJ, which even sideways or traveling base forward, could possibly still be lethal or penetrate a couple walls.

I'll probably switch over to the Wolf MC 124 gr JHP for defense from now on...

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/AKtests1.jpg

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/WolfFMJoutside.jpg
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/WolfFMJinside.jpg

JShirley
June 28, 2008, 04:36 PM
MT,

In general, I agree with your post, except for the FBI specs stuff. LEO may have to fire through auto glass, and stopping perps in cars is common. I don't plan on this, so my basic HD load will be something that won't penetrate like the dickens. I'm fine with 10" of explosive penetration in tissue: I just won't hunt deer with that round.

Something else to consider: those 5 Gal buckets, if you used the common hard plastic type, are pretty tough. I'd be satisfied with penetration into the second 5 gal for HD. You can always have another mag with M43 or 67 ready in case you need extra penetration for some reason. Back before 7.62x39mm AP was restricted, I had 10 rounds on a stripper clip for my SKS, and frangible in the mag.

J

HorseSoldier
June 28, 2008, 05:27 PM
This makes NO sense. You have much better control of your rounds with a carbine. I remember one of P. Kokalis' complaints regarding the inexpensive 7.62x39mm HP years ago was that they didn't penetrate enough. Go try them in water or soaked newsprint. I think you may find that penetration and expansion may be ideal for your needs.

From personal experience, 7.62x39 is a much better penetrator than 00 buckshot on cars and structural materials.

Ratshooter
June 28, 2008, 08:18 PM
MT thats funny. Now i've been called a Mall Ninja. Maybe so. But i can tell you this, i have shot thousands of pounds worth of game and have seen the ability of rifle rounds to penetrate flesh.

If you are comfortable using a round with large amounts of penetration in a house setting then go for it. I will admit i do not have all the answers. No one does. The situations are too varied. Under penetration can get you killed. Over penetration can get you sued for wrongful death.

You are right to do the testing though. The FBI you mentioned has been testing for years and still isn't satisfied with what they have. Every time there is a new shootout it seems like they change the requirerments for their ammo.

JShirley
June 28, 2008, 08:37 PM
From personal experience, 7.62x39 is a much better penetrator than 00 buckshot on cars and structural materials.

Which 7.62? And we're talking about what happens after it hits flesh. If it blows through a body, and only fragments exit, who cares what it'll do to a car? If what John Ross wrote is correct, the 7.62x39mm the Branch Davidians were firing was fragmenting as it came through the floor towards the B&Eing ATFers. Are you comparing steel core to other ammo types?

J

HorseSoldier
June 28, 2008, 09:27 PM
Which 7.62?

Issued-to-me Yugo M67 (Z203) issued for foreign weapons fam fire and other training.

And we're talking about what happens after it hits flesh. If it blows through a body, and only fragments exit, who cares what it'll do to a car?

No, we're talking about defensive ammunition. As I noted, people in life and death situations tend to sling rounds and miss the target more often than they hit. So if the OP's concern was over penetration issues in a home defense scenario, then what the nine out of ten rounds that miss the target do is just as important as what the one that hits is going to do.

If what John Ross wrote is correct, the 7.62x39mm the Branch Davidians were firing was fragmenting as it came through the floor towards the B&Eing ATFers. Are you comparing steel core to other ammo types?


Again, M67. Fired under fairly controlled circumstances into structural materials and automobiles. I did not see evidence of fragmentation on witness panels set up on the far side of the barriers (though I have seen plenty of keyholing). Can't speak for the floor construction at Waco.

In any case, if I was concerned about accidentally shooting up my next door neighbor in a defensive shooting, I would, again, recommend a shotgun over a rifle based on my personal experience.

MortalWombat
June 29, 2008, 12:11 AM
When you consider the majority of Americans are overweight and 1/3 of them are obese, why would you work to minimize penetration? Because some mall ninja who has never shot living things with a gun recommends varmint bullets in a .223 or birdshot in a shotgun?
Who said anything about using birdshot in this thread?

MTMilitiaman
June 29, 2008, 03:41 AM
MT,

In general, I agree with your post, except for the FBI specs stuff. LEO may have to fire through auto glass, and stopping perps in cars is common. I don't plan on this, so my basic HD load will be something that won't penetrate like the dickens. I'm fine with 10" of explosive penetration in tissue: I just won't hunt deer with that round.

I could agree fully with you on this, except I don't usually plan on getting into a gunfight at all. So if my equipment was based just on the fights I planned on, then there would be no need to have a gun around at all.

So I would rather have the extra penetration and not need it than need it and not have it. Just like I don't plan on repelling a human wave attack on my compound or really plan on holding back the zombie hordes, but still like to have a 30 rounder in an AK with one or two spare mags set aside.

Who said anything about using birdshot in this thread?

No one, except it comes from the same flawed logic as recommending varmint loads in a rifle.

MCgunner
June 29, 2008, 11:55 AM
Over penetration can get you prison time in Texas. You don't need no stinkin' rifle in a house in a neighborhood. Get a shotgun, better power, less penetration of walls and endangering your neighbors. Don't be a mall ninja. Shooting someone is serious business and shooting someone accidentally will get you a cell with Bubba.

I'm just as secure in my home with a .38 and my 20 gauge coach gun loaded with number 3 buck as anyone with an AK and I don't worry so much about collateral damage. AND, I can actually hit a man at 10 feet with one shot. I don't need no damned high cap mag for that. I mean, if you live in a house 5 miles from anyone and by yourself, an M60, no problem. Just don't try that in an apartment complex. :rolleyes:

9.05. RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON. Even
though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or
using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also
recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the
justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a
prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent
third person.

Ratshooter
June 29, 2008, 12:48 PM
I did some checking on the TAP ammo fom Hornaday. Here is an article from Guns & Ammo. It seems that the 223 ammo they provide for the public is designed to fragment or tumble or both to minimize over penetration.

I guess the idiots at Hornaday and the law enforment pros don't have a clue about what they are doing. They should be providing ammo loaded with bullets that will shoot lengthways through a cow.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/tap_010506/index.html

MCgunner
June 29, 2008, 12:57 PM
I think, too, that if you kill your neighbor with an AK by accident shooting at an intruder, the jury is likely to look upon you more as a mall ninja lookin' to kill anyone, hang the neighbors, than an innocent home owner just lookin' to protect himself. "Assault weapons" don't do well in court. You might get even MORE cell time with Bubba. Okay if you're of that bent and he's cute, I guess. Just something to think about. If I just HAD to use a rifle in the house, didn't think a shotgun could stop a man...:rolleyes:...I'd choose my Rossi 92 Carbine and load it with +P .38 125 grain JHPs. It's just a little cowboy gun, a deer rifle. If you gotta be tacticool, duct tape a sure fire to the magazine tube. :rolleyes: You can take it off before the investigators show up.

George Hill
June 29, 2008, 12:59 PM
Not everyone lives in tight communities. I could use my .300 RUM and not worry about the guy next door.

MCgunner
June 29, 2008, 01:00 PM
Not everyone lives in tight communities. I could use my .300 RUM and not worry about the guy next door.

You are the exception. As gas approaches 7 bucks a gallon and beyond, too, most folks are going to move closer to work (often in cities). Even suburban communities are going to get sparse. Cities might start building UP, like NYC has in the past. Not me, I'm retired, I'm just sayin'.

From my post:


I mean, if you live in a house 5 miles from anyone and by yourself, an M60, no problem. Just don't try that in an apartment complex.

strat81
June 29, 2008, 02:48 PM
I did some checking on the TAP ammo fom Hornaday. Here is an article from Guns & Ammo. It seems that the 223 ammo they provide for the public is designed to fragment or tumble or both to minimize over penetration.

I guess the idiots at Hornaday and the law enforment pros don't have a clue about what they are doing. They should be providing ammo loaded with bullets that will shoot lengthways through a cow.
I might have missed it, but the article does not mention the difference in the three .223 loads. The 75gr TAP load is very distinct from the other two.

Over penetration can get you prison time in Texas. You don't need no stinkin' rifle in a house in a neighborhood. Get a shotgun, better power, less penetration of walls and endangering your neighbors.
So I should choose a weapon that recoils harder, is generally less ergonomic, is harder to operate under stress, has a vastly inferior magazine capacity, and has a poorer selection of ammo to choose from?

Recoil is an issue for smaller shooters and for large shooters with small spouses. Short-stroking a pump shotgun is a very real, and very serious shortcoming of the design. For those who may not train every week, a semi-auto rifle overcomes that deficiency.

And I know that THR members never miss, but some folks do in real life. In that case, I'd take a 30rd AR or AK over a 3rd-8rd shotgun.

Ratshooter
June 29, 2008, 03:25 PM
Hello strat81. The performance of the rifle ammo is covered in the middle of page two right by the picture of the guy shooting the socom rifle. Also shooting the 223 is mentioned in the next to last paraghaph on page 3.

I don't believe there is a right answer for using a rifle in in a house. Where you live will be the determining factor. MT makes a good point for lots of penetration. He stated he lives on a compound. If thats where i lived i would load up the same as him.

If you live in an apartment using a rifle of any kind can be very risky. Even a 22 LR will shoot through several walls of sheetrock. My Crosman 22 pump will shoot through 2-3 layers of 1/2" sheetrock.

I personally prefer a shotgun or 9mm carbine to to a full blown rifle. With good hollow points a 115gr 9mm should stay in a person or at least be pretty much spent if it does exit.

JShirley
June 29, 2008, 03:31 PM
Over penetration can get you prison time in Texas. You don't need no stinkin' rifle in a house in a neighborhood. Get a shotgun, better power, less penetration of walls and endangering your neighbors.

MC, let me be sure I understand your point. Despite using ammunition whose performance I've tested, and which DOES NOT overpenetrate tissue, I should use a weapons platform from which I have thousands less rounds, almost all of which were fired during short-range combat style scenarios? Even though I KNOW I have no more worry about "penetration of walls" than if I used my favored defensive 12 gauge ammo?

Don't be a mall ninja.

Hm. I'm pretty sure mall ninja have little actual experience. I am using a system that is IDENTICAL to what I have taken into actual combat, except I have a more secure stock and I don't have the "happy switch". In fact, I am using the same upper I had shipped to me while I was in-country.

If you have high experience levels using a weapons platform, especially if you've tested its capabilities, use it. I'd be hesitant to tell someone what works best for them if they're already experienced.

strat81
June 29, 2008, 05:22 PM
Hello strat81. The performance of the rifle ammo is covered in the middle of page two right by the picture of the guy shooting the socom rifle. Also shooting the 223 is mentioned in the next to last paraghaph on page 3.
The article does not discuss the type of bullets used in the three TAP loads. The two lighter-weight rounds use V-Max varmint bullets. The heavy, 75-gr load uses an OTM bullet and is one of the closest available rounds to Mk262.

The difference between the 55gr TAP and 75gr TAP is not as mild as the difference between say, 200gr and 230gr 45ACP.

Ignition Override
June 29, 2008, 07:30 PM
How about barrel twist for Wolf x39 in the black box?

This concept is brand new to me, among many other gun topics.

If you were to choose between a Norinco SKS and a Mini 30 which is fairly new, using the same type of newer Wolf fmj hp rounds, which penetrate better, whether through an animal or the wall of a house?

MCgunner
June 29, 2008, 07:38 PM
MC, let me be sure I understand your point. Despite using ammunition whose performance I've tested, and which DOES NOT overpenetrate tissue, I should use a weapons platform from which I have thousands less rounds, almost all of which were fired during short-range combat style scenarios? Even though I KNOW I have no more worry about "penetration of walls" than if I used my favored defensive 12 gauge ammo?


My comments were to the use of FMJ and the idea that there is no such thing as "over penetration" and "why would I wanna worry about it?" Mr MT suggests I use FMJ. Well, beyond the debatable effectiveness of non-expanding ammunition which I didn't go there, I don't HUNT with FMJ as I wanna recover my game, many folks, most folks, don't live on a compound in Montana. In a neighborhood, such ammunition could get you in trouble and more importantly some innocent person hurt or killed. If you're choosing the frangible .223 stuff, you MUST be on the same page with this and we really agree. I'm only speaking to FMJ ammo in neighborhoods or apartments.

So I should choose a weapon that recoils harder, is generally less ergonomic, is harder to operate under stress, has a vastly inferior magazine capacity, and has a poorer selection of ammo to choose from?

Recoil? My 20 is quite mild. I can shoot it easily one handed. My daugher loves it. Hell, I've tripled on ducks before with my pump 12 gauge shooting 3" steel. That's pretty quick shooting, I'd think. The 20 is nothing.

Less ergonomic? Pistol grips are much slower to the shoulder and on target than light weight side by sides IMHO. A good quail guns is QUICK and points where you look. Proper fit is the key.

Harder to operate? Push off safety, pull trigger....okay. No jams, no racking pumps or such, though I have many 10s of thousands of rounds through my bird guns over the years. Ain't like I'm unfamiliar with a shotgun. :rolleyes: All it takes is practice. You ever been to the range or in a duck blind? Get familiar with your weapon and operation is second nature. Are you taking this self defense stuff seriously?

Magazine capacity? You going to attack Al Qaeda or stop a burgler?

Poor selection of ammo? Buck shot is readily available at your local Walmart or Academy and if not, there's online.


Recoil is an issue for smaller shooters and for large shooters with small spouses. Short-stroking a pump shotgun is a very real, and very serious shortcoming of the design. For those who may not train every week, a semi-auto rifle overcomes that deficiency.

My 20 gauge coach gun doesn't kick that much. I burned up 4 boxes in several days on doves last season, not even a sore shoulder. If you're shooting 30 round mags off, 10 or 12, to stop an intruder or two, and those mags are loaded with 7.62x39 FMJ, hey, you're uppin' your odds on meeting your new cell mate.

And I know that THR members never miss, but some folks do in real life. In that case, I'd take a 30rd AR or AK over a 3rd-8rd shotgun.


Really? Then a revolver is worthless? You don't own one, right? If you need that many rounds to stop an attack, even under stress, you need training and practice. I've seen it written that the average shot count per self defense encounter is under 2 rounds. The average range is 7 yards and it'd be way less than that in my house. I use the safe room strategy. If the guy is bummin' around my living room, I have a cell phone. I can dial 911 and there'll be a cop here, paid and trained to handle the situation, in short order. I realize some jurisdictions don't have such good response times, but hey, he can have my TV, it's a cheap POS anyway. He comes through that bedroom door, he gets a load of number 3 buck. I ain't looking to go into combat. I'm just looking for the most effective way to insure the safety of my wife and me with the fewest rounds fired and the least danger to my neighbors. If you need that much firepower, you should re-think your strategy.

None of that applies, once again, to Mr. MT or those that live well away from civiliazations. I mean, if I was that far out from the cavalry and had to take matters into my own hands, I'd probably opt for a rifle to sit beside my shotgun, too. I'm just worried about giving advice to use FMJ 7.62x39 ball ammo to anyone, most likely a city or apartment dweller. That's not cool. Even MT says he plans to switch to hollow point because it breaks up, or something like that, if I read it correctly. But, yes, I do worry about over-penetration from rifle rounds. A frangible or at least expanding bullet would make me happy, but shotguns and handguns in the house make me happier.

R.W.Dale
June 29, 2008, 07:41 PM
http://www.forumspile.com/IBTL-Dog.jpg

JShirley
June 29, 2008, 08:21 PM
What are the barrel lengths of the -30 vs. SKS?

MC, I'm only speaking to FMJ ammo in neighborhoods or apartments.


Then I guess we're close enough to the same page.

Ratshooter
June 29, 2008, 08:22 PM
Hello Strat. Your right. They don't mention anything about the 75gr load. It is the usual bare bones article from G&A that they put out now. Those type of articles are the reason i no longer subscribe to them also.

Before i posted the link i did a google search and looked at Hornadays WS but didn't find any good info on the bullets. I didn't spend more than a few minutes either since my main point was that a company like Hornaday offers personal defense loads using frangible bullets like i recommended and got called a mall ninja for.

I would think that Hornaday would have more real world input from professional police agencies about what makes good home defense ammo than most folks here. The best thing about all of this is that the OP who aked the question has gotten many different opinions from what seems to be experienced shooters. Now all he has to do is sift through it and decide what will work best for HIS intended use.

As i stated earlier no one answer is 100% correct. Thank goodness we have the choices we have. We could have laws or restrictions that dictate what we will use whether we thinks its best or not.

I forgot to add. Being called a mall ninja cracked me up. I've been called everthing you can think of, but never that. I may have a new sig line. Thanks MT. I enjoy going back and forth with the posters here. New ideas and different opinions are the reason i keep coming back.

MCgunner
June 29, 2008, 08:34 PM
JShirley, what set me off on that post was MT's reference to no such thing as over-penetrattion, but in retrospect, going back and looking at his post, he does say it CAN be bad and I'm sure he's thinking about the problem of endangering third persons, so I was a little over reactive. But, I do believe in rapid expansion especially the more crowded it gets. A 223 OR a 7.62x39 are overly penetrative and powerful for killing a human. IMHO expansion, rapid expansion, is a very good thing. I know from experience how far a deer can go if the bullet fails to expand. You could get killed with that sort of lack of terminal performance on an attacker, never mind the problem of crowded neighborhoods and perhaps apartments. I use expanding bullets on game, why would I prefer an FMJ on humans?

I just got this 154 grain Wolf soft point for my SKS hunting rifle to try on hogs, maybe deer, though I sorta prefer my .308 bolt gun for day hunting. I don't trust that 123 grain hollow point stuff to expand, personally. I haven't shot anything with it, though, so I really don't know. That 154 grain stuff, though, just LOOKS like a hunting spitzer should look. :D I used to handload a 135 grain Sierra .308 diameter bullet and it worked well on deer, but the .311 154 grain stuff is a little more accurate in a .311" bore gun.

JShirley
June 29, 2008, 09:21 PM
My results from Federal 50 grain .223 lead me to believe that it won't penetrate through an "average" torso. I let a decent doe go because all I had was a shoulder shot, and I was only going to take a neck shot with this ammo.

My results from cheap Russian 7.62 HP also lead me to believe they won't overpenetrate in tissue. Like I said earlier, though, test what you're considering.

Thing is, handgun rounds I've tested have penetrated up to 2x as far in media (3x as far as the 50 grain Fed HP). With handguns, often the shorter the barrel, the deeper the penetration, as the reduced velocity reduces expansion. To me, a tested higher-speed bullet just makes more sense to protect both me and the neighbors.

I know you've put a lot more rounds into flesh than I have. The only problem is, I think a lot of those rounds were probably fired into or around the very tough shoulders of hogs. If you have the chance to do some testing behind the shoulder with various ammo, I'd be interested in hearing your results.

John

Pigspitter
June 29, 2008, 10:35 PM
Extreme Shock!!!!!!!! I've heard that real operators use them because they will vaporize a bad guy. Too bad HK doesn't make a gun in 7.62x39.

motorhead
June 29, 2008, 10:53 PM
It seems like everyone is set on either HP or FMJ bullets from the 7.62X39. From what I've read, and seen personally, HP's seem to be more for ballistics than reliable expansion.

For what you are lookign at, I'd go with a SP like this http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=7119&dir=18|477

I suspect that you'll get more reliable expansion than a HP "in a rifle" and still have more than adequate penetration.

I doubt you'd find a lack of adequate penetration for defensive purposes in any 7.62X39 , unless you got into frangibles.

Another thing to consider, I personally wouldn't want to touch off any rifle round inside, unless I was prepared ahead of time with hearing protection. You may very well find yourself, as well as tha BG out of the fight just from the muzzle blast/flash. Especially in the dark!

JShirley
June 29, 2008, 10:54 PM
You know, I realized very recently that Extreme Shock (http://www.gunblast.com/ExtremeShock.htm) is run by the folks of the former Mullins Ammunition.

Mullins made me some very decent .40 loads back in 1996 or '97. Jeff told me at that time that he was working on some composite loads that would be horribly destructive, but not overpenetrate.

I hate their advertising, just as I despise Dork Ops' and Black Hawk, er, I mean http://www.blackhawk.com/images/site/header_03.jpghttp://www.blackhawk.com/images/site/header_04.jpg, but the ammunition might be worth trying.

John

MCgunner
June 30, 2008, 12:36 AM
It seems like everyone is set on either HP or FMJ bullets from the 7.62X39. From what I've read, and seen personally, HP's seem to be more for ballistics than reliable expansion.

Yeah, that's why I don't trust 'em for hunting game, though I have not tested 'em.

If I lived in an apartment, I'd want glasier or magsafe in my revolver. In the house, I'm pretty sure it won't over-penetrate even with a 158 +P and I know it'll do the job. The handgun round is packing 270 or so ft lbs from my 2" snub. My SKS pushes 4 or 5 TIMES that. I'm not real sure about jello, but that'd better be a real frangible bullet in the SKS. One thing's for sure, there's more than enough energy for instant incapacitation with proper shot placement and a frangible bullet. If that bullet/wound channel got near the spine, it's lights out.

Ignition Override
June 30, 2008, 02:51 AM
MCgunner:

As another SKS (and Mini) fan, wouldn't the SKS' so-called "Paratrooper" version be even better for inside a typical apartment or house?
Have not many out there seen the gun website phot of the large feral pig, which was killed by only one fmj hp round from an SKS?

You might want to see the color photo of the deep wound as they pull it apart. This should work on a feral bad guy at any short distance, should it not, as long one cocks it and doesn't forget to switch the safety off (made for right-handed people...)?

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