Huge LASD 870 Purchase

[Dave Williams]

"Press Release FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department Selects Remington® Model 870™ Pump Action Shotguns

MADISON, N.C., May 21, 2008 – Remington Arms Company, Inc., announced today it has been awarded a contract to provide the largest sheriff’s agency in the World – the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department – with 4,200 new shotguns. All shotguns within the contract are based upon the proven Model 870 platform, which addresses a number of law enforcement applications.

While meeting all technical requirements outlined by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Remington will supply 3,000 customized Model 870 pump shotguns to be utilized by county patrol deputies, 900 less-than-lethal shotguns, and 300 newly configured shotguns to meet the unique and demanding requirements of their motorcycle units.

“We are honored to be selected by such a prestigious organization as LASD to supply an array of application specific solutions based upon the most reliable shotgun platform today  our Model 870,” stated E. Scott Blackwell, Remington’s President of Global Sales, Marketing and Product Development. “The opportunity to develop and deliver in a timely manner three shotgun configurations essential to the specific needs of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department is something Remington is proud of.”

“Our entire law enforcement business development team focuses on truly listening to customer needs and providing solutions to help them meet the grueling demands of an officer’s role on a daily basis,” added Mike Chamberlain, Remington’s Vice President of Law Enforcement. “Partnering with All State Police Equipment Company of Los Angeles, Remington anticipates delivery to begin June, 2008.”

Since its introduction in 1950, nearly 10 million Model 870 shotguns have been produced. It remains the overwhelming choice for law enforcement divisions due to its historical dependability. Through numerous configurations and variants, the Model 870 platform is used for law enforcement, military applications and sporting purposes in more than 50 countries including the United States.

About Remington Arms Company, Inc.
Remington Arms Company, Inc., headquartered in Madison, NC, designs, produces and sells sporting goods products for the hunting and shooting sports markets under a family of famous brands including Remington, Marlin, Harrington & Richardson (H&R), New England Firearms, L.C. Smith and Parker as well as solutions to the military, government and law enforcement markets. Founded in 1816 in upstate New York, the Company is one of the nation’s oldest continuously operating manufacturers. Remington is the only U.S. manufacturer of both firearms and ammunition products and is the largest domestic producer of shotguns and rifles. The Company distributes its products throughout the U.S. and in over 55 foreign countries. More information about the Company can be found at www.remington.com."


I would be interested to know the specs on these shotguns/duty load selection. Anybody know the details?

Dave Williams

[MAKster]

It's interesting that they describe them as customized 870s. I wonder if they are based on the 870P model or one of the lower priced versions?

[Black_Talon]

Has anyone heard what LASD is going to do with all the Ithaca M37's that are being replaced?

[Dave Williams]

Just checking out Mesa Tactical's site (http://www.mesatactical.com/) and saw this:

"Major law enforcement agencies specify Mesa Tactical products.
The FBI, following intensive testing, specifies Mesa Tactical products as part of a program aimed at upgrading the agency’s existing arsenal of Remington 870 tactical shotguns. The initial purchase order includes Mesa Tactical’s Low-tube Recoil Stock Kits and SureShell Four-Shot Shell Carriers.

In addition, the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department specified Mesa Tactical’s SureShell Four-Shot Shell Carriers and Magazine Cap Sling Hook Loops for use on 3000 new Remington 870’s purchased for patrol applications.

Watch this website for additional information concerning the FBI’s and LASD’s upgrade programs, as well as news about similar programs in other agencies, which have also specified Mesa Tactical products in programs intended to improve popular tactical shotguns.

Posted: May 28 2008"

Man is Mesa on the map now or what? I remember being a little skeptical of their stuff until I read Awerbuck's very positive review of their telescoping stock system in SWAT Magazine.

Dave Williams

[rbernie]

Interesting that the source selection didn't seem to favor a semi-auto, despite the oft-cited Internet issues with folk short-stroking a pump under stress....

[freakshow10mm]

Remington is the only U.S. manufacturer of both firearms and ammunition products
What about me?

[San Francisquito Bill]

Nice!

I'm intrigued by the Mesa Tactical Shotshell carrier. I was told the guns would have a Knoxx Stock with shell carrier and assumed it was the Knoxx Powerpack system, which concerned me if the guns have a bead sight. I've heard some people complain about the cheek weld being too high for a bead with the powerpack shell-holder.

I haven't seen any of the guns yet, and the word is that when we get them and they filter to patrol, we'll have to go through our CPT course before we can carry the new one. Since I just did the CPT course in April, I will likely be one of the last to take the course. I'm gonna talk to some of the range guys I know and see if there is any way for a "motivated" guy to speed the process. We'll see.

I have no idea what the department will do with the 37's and I'm not thinking positive thoughts about it. I'd love to buy one!

I'll put out more info as soon as I know. I first heard about the switch last year when the department began testing shotguns (though not as many models as I would have hoped...maybe they tested others and only let us "regular folks" participate in testing the final two candidates...) and first heard about the "final" specs in March. At that time they said they'd be getting the first shipment in June, but who knows with the way the dept/industry goes.

[Hoppy590]

eh, good for remington, but the LASD, LAPD, or LA boyscouts are hardly a gleaming endorsement in the world of firearms

though id still buy one of their old Ithaca's. serve a better purpose in my hands anyway

[San Francisquito Bill]

Good lord! I've been a member here for over 5 years and have a total of 7 posts (now 8...)!!!!

Talk about a "Lurker"!

[San Francisquito Bill]

Wow...That was somewhat negative...Why are LA agencies so less "gleaming" than any other agency?

[Dave Williams]

Bill,

Thanks for the information.

Stay safe!

Dave

[Moonclip]

Not surprising, I've been seeing old Ithaca 37's in LASD patrol cars for years, I figured it would be only a matter of time before replacement.

I have a feeling they will be destroyed or they will be sold to some distributor out of state, doesn't CA have some sort of rule that PD's can't sell off their surplus or confiscated firearms anymore?

[San Francisquito Bill]

I dont' think there's any law prohibiting the sale of Ex-LE guns, but what the dept. chooses to do is another (and much less hopeful) matter.


I talked to one of my Sgt.'s today. He's a gun-guy and former range staff. He says the shotguns will come with rifle sights. That's the only new info he had.

[EOTechRulesAll]

When are they scheduled to get the new guns and about how long after that will it be before they announce what they're doing with the old guns?

Anybody taking bets on whether they sell them or destroy them?

[sm]

Dave Williams,
Thank you for this thread, and subsequent input.
I have always paid attention to you and your contributions here on THR.


San Francisquito Bill,
Thank you for your input sir!
Please keep us informed if you find out more information.


Re:Why pumps?

My gut says departments are not wanting to re-invent the wheel.
Pumps are not as dependent on ammo, and malfunction drills "can" be a bit easier.

Ammo has improved over the years, that said, I am not 100% happy with many of the new loadings, and a pump will run it, and be able to deal with problems.

I still think a Ithaca 37 with Winchester Western 2 3/4" , nine pellet 00 buck is hard to beat, or Winchester Western 2 3/4" slugs.


Steve

[Moonclip]

I like the Ithaca 37 as well, I wonder why they are being replaced? Are they that old and worn out if that is even possible. Do LASD Ithacas have the slamfire feature?

I sort of remember years ago KCAL channel 9 did some big investigative report on CA dept of Corrections selling off surplus guns or maybe it was CHP and the practice got modified in some way.

I saw an ex CHP 870 for sale recently. Ex CHP Mod 68 S&W revolvers and 870's are overstamped OHB when sold.

I wonder how prevalent Ithaca 37 use is with LAPD these days?

[jakemccoy]

Interesting that the source selection didn't seem to favor a semi-auto, despite the oft-cited Internet issues with folk short-stroking a pump under stress....

Is the stress coupled with lack of training?

I can't imagine a person who regularly trains with a pump short-stroking.

[Big Sarge]

Unfortunately, many large agencies destroy their surplus firearms now days due to possible lawsuits from misuse

[San Francisquito Bill]

I like the Ithaca 37 as well, I wonder why they are being replaced? Are they that old and worn out if that is even possible. Do LASD Ithacas have the slamfire feature?

The 37's are pretty worn. Some are in very good condition, and even the worn ones still work, but as any mechanical device gets used, there are parts that break. That breakage is (in my perception) becomming more frequent and takes some of our trust in the weapon away.

I've experienced weapon malfunctions due to worn/broken guns, many of the guns beads are/were broken, sights get knocked off, rear sights come loose and/or fall off, forks break, extractors break, etc. These issues can be fixed, but who knows when another issue will rear its ugly head.

These are OLD guns. Many of them have 5 digit serial numbers and a large number have the slamfire feature. When LAPD went to the 870, LASD bought all their 37's, and many of our guns are marked with "Los Angeles Police Dept."

I really like the Ithaca 37, and would buy one in a flat second if the dept. would sell one to me. I've had my eye out for one just out of nostalgia, but I'd use it with no hesitation. The biggest advantage we will have in deploying the new 870's is that they will be new guns and wear-related issues will be minimized.

Also, it will take a LONG time to transition the entire department to the 870. Unless I can somehow weasle into the shotgun class, I'll probably be close to last in being transitioned since I already took our Continuation of Patrol Training course, just prior to the deployment of the new gun. Therefore, I'll be carrying the 37 for a while.

[Roccobro]

When San Diego SO went to Glocks a few years ago, all the old wheelguns were shipped to an out of state dealer. None of the officers were allowed to buy one from what I was told. :(

Justin

[scrat]

Good lord! I've been a member here for over 5 years and have a total of 7 posts (now 8...)!!!!

Talk about a "Lurker"!

well im over 3000 strong. i know someone in lasd. so i dont want to say anything else. but i will do some poking around. thats all for now. may have to delete this or modify it. later on. if i can get some info. please no one copy this.

[Black_Talon]

I like the Ithaca 37 as well, I wonder why they are being replaced? Are they that old and worn out if that is even possible. Do LASD Ithacas have the slamfire feature??

They're in pretty sad shape. As a big-time M37 nut, and an LA County resident, I get plenty of opportunities to check out M37's in the squad cars. They are really thrashed. The majority of the bead-sighted versions have no beads and a lot of the rifle-sighted versions are missing their front or rear sights. Stocks look like they've been put through wood chippers, and the bluing is long gone. Almost all of them are earlier than mid-1970's manufacture, which means that most are slam-fire-able.

I wonder how prevalent Ithaca 37 use is with LAPD these days?

LAPD has been using 870s for a while now, and a large percentage of their M37's were donated to LASD to be used for spares or whatever.

[Dave Williams]

So it looks like.....18" rifle sighted barrel(I would imagine improved cylinder since that is what Remington has standardized on it seems), Knoxx stock, 4rd mag tube, Mesa Sidesaddle, Mesa mag cap sling loop, bungee 2 point sling. Maybe Surefire forends. Great setup, nice versatility with the adjustable stock for various sized Officers, and the rifle sights and slug availability give you some stand off room in the even of a rifle armed bad guy/active shooter.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that alot of money was spent on the "obsolete" Police shotgun as opposed to sinking the money into Patrol Rifles.

I know at least one large State Academy Instructor with impeccable credentials thinks that American Law Enforcement had the tool it needed all along, the 12ga shotgun with slug availability and some proper training, and didn't/doesn't need the Patrol Rifle.

Dave Williams

[Dionysusigma]

^^^ Something about what someone once posted about ".73 caliber carbines." ;)

freakshow10mm: Remington is the only U.S. manufacturer of both firearms and ammunition products

What about me? Didn't see any in-house firearms on your website, nor ammo... :scrutiny:

[San Francisquito Bill]

Word came in this week that we should be receiving our first 17 870's here at the station within the next month.

Apparently all new recruits are being trained/certified on the 870s, but there has been no information on when/how patrol Deputies will be trained and certified. Therefore we may get the guns and have few if any deputies able to deploy with them. While that would in no way surprise me, I think they have some sort of in-service familiarity certification training in mind...I'll come in on another shift or my day off if I have to to get the certification.

While I'm excited over the new guns, There are a couple things I wish the decision-makers did/would do...

1. I would like to see 14" barrels or, barring that, a program where certain patrol deputies could be certified in "Entry gun" training and be allowed to install short barrels or deploy short barreled shotguns. The shorter barrel combined with the collapsable stock would make the new shotguns a much more viable entry/search guns.

2. I still wish they'd let us purchase our own shotguns, even if they were required to be identical to the issued guns. I'd like to be able to sight in "MY" gun and know that it was to my specs, not knocked out of whack, etc....

My partner went to the range the other day and was able to handle one of the new shotguns. He was VERY impressed and is excited. We both have some "connections" and will exploit them if we have to...

Well, that's the "breaking news" so far...

[Roccobro]

Thanks for the update Bill.

Justin

[VE2RF]

Off Topic Response to the LAPD and LASD Bashers:

For all the negative things said about the LAPD and LASD, they have had a history of doing things overwhelmingly right most of the time. Like any organizations as large as they are, there are and there have been bad apples. If you'd care to read, the books that have been written on the Hat Squad are fascinating. Webb's book is a classic, and the books covering the Gates days are also well worth the effort to read.

On the fictional side, James Ellroy's LA Cycle is fanatastic.

[Dave McCracken]

Bill, thanks for the update.

I've mixed feelings about 14" barrels in cruisers. While easier to deploy, the increased blast and flash are going to be hard to overcome.

[Dave Williams]

Bill, thanks for the update.

Re making the guns viable entry/search guns, here are some options for working with what you have:

1. Utilize the "Indoor Ready" position while searching. Here is a description for a right hand shooter from Michael Rayburn, "You will have the buttstock tucked into your shoulder while you are in your combat crouch.....bring the barrel of the gun across your body over to your off side leg. The back of your (left) hand should come to a rest on top of your (left) thigh. Lock it in place there, so when your off side foot goes forward, so does the barrel of the gun. In this position the barrel of the gun will be pointed off to the side of your left foot". Rayburn also describes a variation where you simply keep the gun on the centerline of your body with the barrel pointed 12inches in front of your feet, and you keep it there as you move. It's very quick to bring the shotgun up for a snap shot from these searching positions. Note I am currently reading a book by Louis Awerbuck and he evidently teaches the off to the side indoor ready(he probably came up with it) advocated by Rayburn.

2. Utilize the CQB position advocated by Rob Haught. In it you bring the buttsock up and over your right shoulder. You rotate the gun to that the ejection port is facing up. You maintain somewhat of a firing grip on the shotgun(this is actually easier with a PG stock so you're in luck since your new 870s have them). I've attached a few pics I found online at 10-8 Forums, which is a great place to learn about all things tactical. In pic one the guy with the blue shirt is showing the basic position. In pic two Rob Haught is showing how short the position makes the gun.

Dave Williams

[San Francisquito Bill]

Thanks for the replies...I actually use the Rob Haught technique (or at least as far as I can tell from pictures...I've never had training from him...I know it's a push/pull thing) a lot. I used it last week to clear a vehicle and I find it to be an excellent tool with the shotgun...I need to play with it with my PG-stocked 870 to see how it feels with that rather than the standard stock.

So we were told in briefing that today we were supposed to send a bunch of Ithacas downtown to get 870 replacements, but we didn't have enough Ithacas to send down and still have enough to field. I think they ended up finding some that had been stored and I think they did end up sending them out...

Here's the fun part. No one is certified on the 870 and it won't even fit in the rack until the butt mount is changed. So now we have a bunch of 870's (I think) that no one can use, and a bunch less Ithacas. I hope they didn't send down all the good ones...The one I had today was...not so good.

I know they're trying to get everything deployed so that when people get trained the stuff is out there and ready to go, but I would think that they would send us the 870's first, then come out and train us so we can use them, then modify the cars so we can carry them, then take our old Ithacas. At least I may be able to see the new guns tomorrow, which should be cool...

[MillCreek]

So I wonder how the motorcycle units shotgun will be configured.

[San Francisquito Bill]

They have been using Ithacas with side-folders, so I figure that's probably going to be the only difference...They'll probably have the side-folders and maybe no sidesaddle. Maybe a shorter barrel but I doubt it...

We have 11 of the new guns in the armory (per an e-mail) but I left before they came back...Hopefully I can at least fondle one tomorrow...

[Harley Quinn]

I'd be interested in one of the 37's myself. If anyone cares that is:uhoh:

[Geno]

Wow, 4,200 shotguns! Now that I see that number, I feel inferior about the small number of shotguns I have in my own small collection. :o

I like my 870 Tactical just as it arrived. :) I figure if I can't stop a bad-guy with 7 shots of 12 gauge, the extra few rounds attached to the Knoxx stock won't help me much. Now, some of those cool reloading tubes I've seen in competitions are interesting.

That was a interesting bit of news. Thanks for posting it.

[Roccobro]

I saw a 14" tube on a bean bag 870 (in the jails) at work this morning. Looked kinda odd, as only the newest 14" 870's in our department are for patrol guns first!

Justin

[scrat]

Off Topic Response to the LAPD and LASD Bashers:

For all the negative things said about the LAPD and LASD, they have had a history of doing things overwhelmingly right most of the time. Like any organizations as large as they are, there are and there have been bad apples. If you'd care to read, the books that have been written on the Hat Squad are fascinating. Webb's book is a classic, and the books covering the Gates days are also well worth the effort to read.

Fort Apache

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/scratm3/2-5.jpghttp://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/scratm3/3-1.jpg

[San Francisquito Bill]

OK folks...Here's the scoop...

I saw the new toys today and I guess I'll simply say... WOOOOWWWHOOOO!

(OK, maybe a bit overdramatic but hear me out...)


So lets start with a basic description and move on to the just plain cool, then to the not-so-cool, and lastly, (If I can make it work) the pictures (I'll put them in a new post because I'll have to figure out where/how to host them, etc....

OK...The base gun is the 870 Police 3". Finish appears to be park'd (I was wondering if they'd base the guns on the cheaper express model. They did not). Barrel is indeed 18" and the tube is a standard 4rd capacity. The trigger guard is plastic like the current Police model.

So that's pretty much it for "standard". Starting from the muzzle and working back here are the specs/features:

XS Express Sights (Yup...I thought it was gonna be std. Rem adjustables...I really like the sights and they seem like they'll be much more durable.

Mesa Tactical Front Sling Swivel (More on this later)

SureFire LED Integrated Forend light

Mesa Tactical 4rd Sidesaddle

Knoxx SpecOps Recoil Reducing/Collapsable stock

Royal Arms Bungee sling

OK...So that's the rundown...but there's a bit more...Each shotgun is engraved (Pre-Park...a factory thing) with "Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department" on the right side of the receiver below the ejection port, and the serial numbers all begin with LASD00XXXX (however many numbers there are...)

So now the not-so-cool... First, I'm not yet certified. I should be able to rectify this by the end of September though. I was a bit wrong in that they've been running academies and patrol schools with the new 870 for a month or two, so there are at least a few deps certified as of now. I think there is going to be a big push to get people up to speed as quick as possible.

The not-so-cool thing about the gun that I found is the front sling swivel. It is designed so that the sling can move from the right to left side depending on who's carrying it. That's cool. The problem is that the sling seems to often want to sit in a position preventing the light protruding from the forend from moving forward. Now the dept. tested this gun pretty well, so maybe with some more practice/proper sling use, etc. it won't be an issue. (I was only able to handle the weapon for a few minutes, and can't really go all simulated tactical crazy in the armory without getting in some sort of hot water...)

OK...Now to see if I can make pictures work...See my next post for frustrated venting or (hopefully) pictures...

[San Francisquito Bill]

OK...Here goes...

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c154/SoCalDep/DSC01283.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c154/SoCalDep/DSC01285.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c154/SoCalDep/DSC01286.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c154/SoCalDep/DSC01287.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c154/SoCalDep/DSC01288.jpg

[Dave Williams]

Wow, those are some nice shotguns, Bill, thanks for taking the effort to post some pics.

That sight setup was originally for the DEA, IIRC from info at TPI, and it's a standard XS pistol rear sight placed in a base that's attached to the barrel just in front of the receiver, and then a big dot in a standard Remington rifle front base.

LED upgrade on the Surefire forends sure is nice for durability.

The Sheriff Department sure did a good job on this weapon purchase.

Dave Williams

[Harley Quinn]

I am not sure what you are doing by showing the pic's and giving the run down on this purchase, and not be a certified deputy is a good idea. It is nice to see this, but I am thinking you need to stay covert big time.

Regards,:uhoh:

[scrat]

too cool So So nice

[Gunsnrovers]

I am not sure what you are doing by showing the pic's and giving the run down on this purchase, and not be a certified deputy is a good idea. It is nice to see this, but I am thinking you need to stay covert big time.

Why would any of this be secret squirrel?

Hopefully we'll see the Ithaca's come out soon. Be a neat match to my LAPD 37. A few years ago a bunch of Sacramento PD 870's hit the market. I cleaned one up and made it the house gun.

[Harley Quinn]

Why would any of this be secret squirrel?

Got to be one to understand the workings, that go on I guess:) He can do what he wants, just giving good sound advise.

:uhoh:

[jakemccoy]

Those are nice guns to keep the LA cops well armed. An LA cop can be happy that good things are being done for their safety. I can't get excited until the sheriff starts issuing CCW permits for normal people. A little .38 in my pocket would cost the sheriff nothing and would be 1,000,000 times more efficient for my self-defense than those fancy 870's. They're just tools and not my tools.

[San Francisquito Bill]

Yes...Pictures of a tool that is going to be sitting in the public view of millions of people in thousands of radio cars...Must be a really big secret.... I guess all the magazines that post pictures of Kimber TLE's, SIS's, Springfield Professionals, RRA DEA models, Benelli M1014's, any AR15/M16/M4 variant, not to mention all the pictures here, must be harming department/national security?

Yea...Right. I'll worry.

[Geronimo45]

Very nice stuff you've got there... but what's with that strange-lookin' sling?

[Harley Quinn]

Yes...Pictures of a tool that is going to be sitting in the public view of millions of people in thousands of radio cars...Must be a really big secret.... I guess all the magazines that post pictures of Kimber TLE's, SIS's, Springfield Professionals, RRA DEA models, Benelli M1014's, any AR15/M16/M4 variant, not to mention all the pictures here, must be harming department/national security?

Yea...Right. I'll worry.

Well good luck with that one.
:uhoh:
Regards,

[San Francisquito Bill]

The sling itself is pretty much high-end bungee cord. It's actually pretty cool. It was originally designed and used for breacher shotguns, but works well for regular deployment. I think their website is royalarms.com...

[Serpico]

I saw them for the first time in the West Hollywood armory today while I was running the mobile range...gorgeous guns...The slings adhere to the KISS principle...fling it over you head and let it hang down...now if we can just keep the Deps from borrowing the lights out of the forearms....;)

[VINTAGE-SLOTCARS]

San Francisquito Bill forgot to mention the receiver is made of steel, the damm shotgun is very front heavy fully loaded. It is hard to hold up on line for extended times, while covering the target and loading more ammo into the tube. The recoil absorbing stock is awsome with slugs,and heavy loads though. The combat course (cpt) was done in daylight and nite fire course.cant wait till the station gets them in too.

[Dave Williams]

VINTAGE-SLOTCARS,

Thanks for the update.

Yes good old American guns made out of the wonder metal....STEEL! You guys have some very nicely set up shotguns.

Can you describe your courses of fire for us?

Dave Williams

[VINTAGE-SLOTCARS]

Basic course is loaded shotgun in veh. Exit chamber one round, fire off two over the hood ,reload on the run fire off 2 more at target' reload ( keep weapon loaded always) advance on target fire off rest of the rounds. Sling the shotgun and continue the fire fight with you duty weapon (Berretta 92fs night sights and crimson trace laser). :eek: The training is also done at night the forestock light system.,,, The dept allows deps to carry slugs. with an ounce of lead going down range it's awsome power if ever needed.:)

[boalex207]

Any news on the fate of the retired Model 37's ? Turned in for sale ?

[VINTAGE-SLOTCARS]

Only a few stations have recieved any of the new guns. Very few have been trained on the new guns. It will probably be a while (several months) until the Dept. makes up their minds what they will do with the old ones. I trained on the m37, in 1979 and most of the LASD guns are now a polished rust finish. These all did not have a disconect feature and would fire again if the trigger was held back while pumping in a second round.
The ones we got from LAPD were in very good condition with probably 90 % finish these had the disconnect feature. I'd like to get an LASD one but the LAPD ones are better condition by far. We used the hell out of our old guns for years.

[VINTAGE-SLOTCARS]

Just an update on the m37's. Stations have rec'd more 870's and turned in more old 37's. No new word of what the Dept will do with the old guns yet. I have a couple of friends waiting to get new info as it come out and will post it as soonas I find out. Keeping my fingers crossed that they will not destroy them.