[Lone_Gunman]

A significant portion of our population seems happy to accept illegal immigration and not make any serious attempt to stop it.

Democrats and Republicans both have weak stances on illegal immigration.

They must have something to gain by illegal immigrants. If not, one side or the other would seem to oppose it.

So, my only conclusion is that a large group of power brokers in this country benefit from illegal immigration somehow.

Would you agree or disagree with this?

Also, I am curious as to what the "libertarian" stance on illegal immigration is, or should be. Anyone able to elucidate that?

[tyme]

Libertarians are split on the issue. There are pro-sovereignity libertarians who advocate sealing borders except for closely monitored entry points. Then there are open-border libertarians who think that getting rid of entitlements and letting labor markets drive immigration would mostly solve the problem.

The official LP position is pretty much open-borders. http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.html

[Waitone]

My experience is libertarians do an outstanding job of diagnosing a problem. Their performance in offering WORKABLE solutions is poor. And I refer to more than THR's homegrown libertarians. Talk radio in my city is infested with libertarian diagnosis but precious few solutions.

Back to why nothing is done about illegal immigration? In a word, "Filthy Lucre." Too many people on all side of the political spectrum are making money by breaking the law. We have laws in place that will put a severe dent in illegal immigration yet all level of law enforcement refuse to enforce them. I think the bottom line is labor in the US is far too expensive to compete on a global scale. Everyone points to minimum wage as the boogie man. Minimum wage is a minor part of the problem. The real cost of US labor is in our health, environmental, safety, and litigation premium. Add human services costs of workman's comp, unemployment payments, medicare tax, social security, ad nauseum. All those costs simply disappear when the US company says, "We're outta here."

Illegal immigration is symptomatic of the problem. Lots of costs of employment simply disappear when an illegal alien is hired. True costs of employment are shifted to the public sector and it is untraceable.

There you have it. It pays to employ illegal aliens and at this point it is not traced back to the employers who break the law.

I got another idea what is going on and it ain't got nuthin' to do with the new world order and tinfoil hats.

[Marko Kloos]

Counterquestion:

How do you propose to stop illegal immigration?

As long as the richest country in the world borders one of the poorest ones, there will always be illegal immigrants. Turning the southern border into a new Iron Curtain is not only logistically impossible, but it would not work even if it was feasible.

We have about 3,000 miles of land border with Mexico, and 10,000 miles of undefended coastline. Every single Border Patrol agent, and every single infantry soldier in the U.S.Army and USMC would not be enough to "seal the border". Remember that the Iron Curtain didn't prevent people from fleeing into West Germany, even though the East Germans had shoot-to-kill orders and no Constitution or Posse Comitatus.

I keep hearing that our borders are "wide open", but I never hear how exactly we're supposed to close them. You cannot hermetically seal an open society like the United States...it's a logical, technical and logistical impossibility. If you have any proposals that don't involve machine-gunning migrants or using the fighting forces of the U.S. military as garrisoned border guards, let's hear it. I keep hearing about how the Libertarians "never offer workable solutions", but all the proposals I hear from the Ultra-Conservatives invariably include either wanting to turn the military into border police, or proposing to have Open Season on people who enter the country across the Rio Grande.

[cosmos7]

Why exactly would shooting illegals that resist capture be a bad thing? I agree it'd be sad, but it would certainly be a better deterant than a hot meal and then putting back across the border to try again...

[GinSlinger]

Why doesn't anyone stop it?

Easy. Who would mow your grass (esp. in Beverly Hills), clean your hotel room, pick your apples, grapes, etc, work grunt day labor on job sites?

This is not meant to sound prejudicee. It's economic. Would you think that the best job your son/daughter could possibly have is to mow grass? Well, there are plenty of ppls south of our border who do see that as a dream job.

My question to ppl talking about unemployment: If there are no jobs in America then why are there still illegal border crossings happening every day? It's because there ARE jobs out there, they just don't pay an "American" wage.

GinSlinger

[Standing Wolf]

Lots of costs of employment simply disappear when an illegal alien is hired. True costs of employment are shifted to the public sector and it is untraceable.

That explains about half of it—and explains it very well. The other half, as I perceive it, is that leftists trust illegal aliens will vote for representatives of the Democratic (sic) party, and I believe their trust isn't misplaced.

The solution is simplity itself: fine each employer $100,000 for each illegal alien on the pay roll. Since the states are forever snivelling and whining about being broke, and since we don't have a $28,000,000,000 Department of Homeland Security to secure the borders, let the states go into the illegal aliens line of work, and keep the $100,000 per captured and deported illegal alien. I'm sure the People's Republic of California could take an enormous bite out of its budget problems in a year's time.

[Stinger]

I keep hearing that our borders are "wide open", but I never hear how exactly we're supposed to close them.

That is the question, isn't it. Marko Kloos, you are correct, we will never be able to keep everyone out. But would it be so bad if we tried to keep most of them out.

Have you ever seen anyone illegally cross? I have. I saw 30-40 illegals cross at Del Rio, Texas. Yes, that's right, 30-40, in broad daylight. They walked across the bridge, then found a hole in the fence, and went on through. Perhaps 100 yards or so from the check point. I think that was about 6-7 years ago. That was one instance, in one place, in one day. It happens ALL of the time.

I've got to suggestions, I don't know if they are solutions, but why not give them a shot. First of all, let's eliminate their reason for coming. Punish those who hire them. Secondly, put more muscle on the border. You can't plug all of the holes, but why not plug SOME of the holes?

YMMV,

Stinger

[Chris Rhines]

Great idea if you think that the State should have the right to dictate to a private company who may or may not be hired. Not such a good solution if you actually believe in freedom of association.

The first step in solving a problem is admiting that a problem exists. The second step is defining what the problem is. From a libertarian perspective, illegal immigration is not the problem. If someone crosses a state border without asking permission, greasing the right palms, or begging favor from the right politico, who is he hurting?

The problem appears when said illegal immigrant shows up at the welfare office.

- Chris

[Glock Glockler]

Step 1 - Eliminate the domestic welfare state

Step 2 - Subvert Mexico into a capitalist state

Step 3 - Repeat the process with other 3rd world crapholes

[cookhj]

i would say that while the problem of illegal immigrants working for less money than an american worker id pretty great, the bigger problem, in my opinion, is when women, cross the border and have children. then they go back to mexico and collect welfare. granted, someone born in the US is a US citizen, i feel that there should be a "BUT" clause attached that would keep this from happening. and a lot of these women don't have just one child over here, they have multiple ones. if they stay here in the US it becomes even more of a problem because now WE, the taxpayer, have to PAY for their kids, not only in welfare money, but healthcare, AND education. and you know DAMN good and well that these kids won't speak a lick of english at all. this is where it begins to cost americans money. illegals working for less SAVES companies money, but the cost of these people that go on welfare/medicare/etc is sucking WAY toomuch money out of the american people.

[telomerase]

>let's eliminate their reason for coming.

US politicians have been working on that for decades, and they're getting better at it. Soon no one will want to come here for any reason.

>The problem appears when said illegal immigrant shows up at the welfare office.

Yep. So if there's no welfare office, there's no problem.

[Chris Rhines]

telomerase -

Yep. So if there's no welfare office, there's no problem. Well, yeah. I forgot to mention that the same problem comes up when the white, Anglo-Saxon, native-born guy shows up at the welfare office.

Glockler -

You forgot step 1.5 - Subvert the United States into a capitalist state. ;)



Mmmm, something else I should mention. I don't advocate trespassing. Property owners have the sole authority to decide who gets to cross their land, and they can back their decision up with force if need be.

- Chris

[Glock Glockler]

Hey, Chris II

I'm working on 1.5, give me time:)

And what are you doing posting? You should be working on my rifle.

[Standing Wolf]

Great idea if you think that the State should have the right to dictate to a private company who may or may not be hired. Not such a good solution if you actually believe in freedom of association.

We already have plenty of laws on the books to prohibit individuals and businesses from hiring illegal aliens, who are already felons as a result of having entered out country illegally. This has nothing to do with association and everything to do with securing the nation's borders.

We, uh... do have borders, don't we?

[Chris Rhines]

We already have plenty of laws on the books to prohibit individuals and businesses from hiring illegal aliens, who are already felons as a result of having entered out country illegally. The mere existence of a law does not make it morally right. Gun control and drug laws are but two examples. Laws that make a felon out of a person who crosses a State border without asking, "Mother, may I?" are another.

- Chris

[SIGarmed]

If gun control is so bad, then why doesn't anyone want to stop it?

[rock jock]

Laws that make a felon out of a person who crosses a State border without asking, "Mother, may I?" are another.
Obviously, you have no concept of a couple of little things called national sovereignty or property rights.

[Erik]

"They must have something to gain by illegal immigrants. If not, one side or the other would seem to oppose it.

So, my only conclusion is that a large group of power brokers in this country benefit from illegal immigration somehow.

Would you agree or disagree with this?"

Agree. The benefit comes in the form of hispanic votes.

[PeteyPete]

They must have something to gain by illegal immigrants. If not, one side or the other would seem to oppose it.

Republicans: Cheap labor + No benefits payed + No Social Security + No Taxes = Mucho Profits....Those who have the most sway in the Republican party are the ones who benefit the most from cheap labor, and lower costs of production.

Democrats: Need minority voters to perpetuate the system of dependancy that gets them elected. Without a true downtrodden, the Dems are out of business. Sans the handouts to minority voters, the Dems have a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected.

[Orthonym]

What PeteyPete said! Just like the War on Drugs, we're all in it together.

Personally, I think Edward Abbey was right: Give the illegal Mexican an M-16 and a thousand rounds, and send him home to finish his revolution.

[seeker_two]

Economic solutions to the border problem...

1. MAKE IT TOO EXPENSIVE TO HIRE ILLEGALS: Start enforcing the existing laws on hiring illegals. Add more teeth ($100,000 fine per illegal, prison time).

2. MAKE IT TOO EXPENSIVE FOR ILLEGALS TO CROSS THE BORDER: Military at the border patrolling. Capture illegals or shoot if they resist capture. If necessary, make the area 1-5mi. inside the Mexican border a "no-man's land".

Will this happen?

Of course not.....:banghead:

What WILL happen?

1. ILLEGALS GAIN MORE POLITICAL POWER: Will gain voting rights in border states & wrest power from citizens. Will open up more opportunities for illegals to infest US.

2. UPSURGE IN RACIST GROUPS: Frustrated w/ lack of action by gov't & loss of power, more citizens will start joining up w/ non-racist anti-illegals groups (Ranch Rescue). Illegals in gov't will crack down & break RR. Other, more racist groups (Aryan Nation, KKK, Black Panthers, etc.) will take up the slack & violence against illegals (and any race that isn't them) skyrockets.

3. MORE TERRORISTS ATTACKS: Why come in legally when Arab extremeists can just slip across the sieve of a border? Soon, enough will be in place to cause nationwide havoc...

4. GOV'T DECLARES MARTIAL LAW: Using Patriot I & II (as well as other Ashcroft-ian laws against the Constitution), gov't begins asserting more control on citizens (ignoring the illegals--for economic reasons, of course). Freedoms curtailed. People constantly under surveillance.

5. SECOND AMERICAN CIVIL WAR BEGINS.... :(

Don't you just love the direction that all this :cuss: is heading?... :fire:

[wingman]

Two groups benefit from illegal immigration, the rich/wealthy in this country and
in the case of Mexican illegals the rich class in Mexico.

If we cannot pick our own fruit, wash dishes, mow lawns, etc, then in truth we
don't deserve to be free, plus if I could save the cost of taxes due to illegal
immigration then I could pay more for those services.

[longeyes]

seeker_two:

The only thing you forgot was that it will happen under Hillary's
Presidency and will lead to a military take-over within a few years.

No, it can't happen here...
:evil:

[BenW]

Easy. Who would mow your grass (esp. in Beverly Hills), clean your hotel room, pick your apples, grapes, etc, work grunt day labor on job sites?
Well, back in the '50s when my German parents immigrated into the country, my mom and dad were doing that for you, along with Italians, French, and a host of others. Of course they came in the legal way, took no entitlements, paid taxes, and worked the crummy jobs until they found better ones.

[Lone_Gunman]

BenW,

Your post didnt answer the question, though, did it?

[USGuns]

FYI - Interesting article on Cruz Bustamante and his previous affiliation with a group called MEChA. Any wonder why this group is pro-immigration (legal or not) from Mexico?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,95871,00.html

[BenW]

BenW,

Your post didnt answer the question, though, did it?


Well, perhaps not yours, but it answered the question I was responding to. To reiterate, LEGAL immigrants would do that work. :)

[Dilettante]

Supply and demand, guys. It's that simple.
We have lots of schlep jobs to do. They have lots of people who can support two generations of their family by doing those schlep jobs.
Huge parts of California's economy depend on work done by people who you've never seen before and don't speak much English. Who wants to look into their documents? In a little while they'll be working for somebody else anyway.
Of course a lot of people are making money off of them. In fact, sometimes you can pay them less because they're illegal.
I would guess that your instincts are in the right direction.

[Chris Rhines]

rj -

Wrong on both counts.

I do indeed have a conception of national sovereignty; I just don't much care about it. National sovereignty certainly takes second place to individual liberty.

As for property rights, go back and read my second post to this thread. The part about tresspassing. Read it carefully. I'll be waiting for your formal retraction.

- Chris

[Ed Brunner]

It is all political smoke and mirrors and it is going exactly the the way our government wants it to go. Hispanics are the majority of the future and no one wants to offend them. Almost every politician wants their votes.

[Steel]

As Posted by Glock Glockler:



Step 1 - Eliminate the domestic welfare state

Amen. In Texas, an illegal can go to our colleges and get in-state tuition. He can also get non-emergency medical care (California too?) - with taxpayers' money.

This is a mainly a federal (State Department) issue, as Mexico and its brass absolutely stick their noses up at our sovereignty and borders!!!!! As I recall, protecting the integrity of our borders is a basic Constititutional mandate of the feds.
The Demoncrats and Republicans don't have the guts to do the right and prudent thing and close our borders and throw illegal invaders in jail. Look at the percentage of inmates that are Mexican "transplants" -- I forget the number, but as I recall, it was sobering.

Stop motor voter laws -- there are way too many illegals voting ! Guess who they vote for? You guessed it -- Democraps.

People: quit hiring f-----g illegals !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Marko Kloos]

The Demoncrats as well as Bush don't have the guts to do the right and prudent thing and close our borders


Once again, I keep hearing how we need to "close our borders", but I never hear how this task is supposed to be accomplished. How does one hermetically seal thousands of miles of mostly desert land border, and a few thousand more miles of coastline?

[Steel]

hermetically seal

Who said anything about a hermetically seal? Even a 25% decrease in accessibility is better tha nthe status quo.

Also, don't forget, "borders" are not only physical ones, but also include borders in the figurative sense -- borders that face travellers, students, mutants, terrorists, whoever.

[Matthew Courtney]

The way to eliminate illegal immigration is to eliminate all forms of social welfare. No more cash, food stamps, healthcare, education, or graduated income tax.

That reduces it by half. We eliminate the other half by legalizing and taxing it. The biggest crime illegals commit is not paying taxes.

[longeyes]

It's good to know that Mexicans have a name for the chunk of
the USA they plan on "taking back." I think we need to have a
poll here at THR to come up with a name for the big chunk of
Mexico WE are going to take back if El Presidente Coca-Cola (aka Fox)
and his gang of 47 Families doesn't back the **** off. Yeah, strange
but true, "invasions" don't always happen only one-way. You heard
it here first. There will be Administrations after this one, and
even Hillary's, that might well be less amicable toward the Great
Inevitability of the Latino Voting Bloc. If the people I hear and see
get any more vexed you can take that one to the bank.

There are no ways to "hermetically" shut down the border? Oh, I think
there are, but we just haven't gotten angry enough. Besides, it's
not a defensive game we're playing here. If we really want to stop
this, we need to go beyond the good ideas propounded here (ending
the welfare state, eliminating public bennies for illegals, penalizing
employers, etc.) and take the pain across the border to the Mexican
government and its cronies. For some reason this is never talked
about, which is funny when you consider that it wouldn't be the first
time the U.S. Marines have "visited" Mexico with trouble in mind.

[Orthonym]

When we won the Mexican War we could have annexed all of Mexico had we really wanted to do so. Jeff Davis, I believe it was, pointed out that we would be better off just grabbing the parts of Mexico with hardly any Mexicans in them, which was what we did. The Mexicans weren't willing to live in such places until lately, after they'd been developed by Gringos.

[AZTOY]

Marines upgrading road, fence near Naco AZ

Tucson, Arizona Thursday, 28 August 2003

By Ignacio Ibarra
ARIZONA DAILY STAR

NACO - A Marine engineering company is on a month-long mission to improve the road and expand fencing along the border near Naco AZ.

The military unit, the 374th Marine Wing Support Squad-ron based in Twentynine Palms, Calif., started this week to upgrade a little more than one mile of dirt road that runs adjacent and parallel to the border fence east of the port of entry.

Construction will focus on several low-water crossings that turn to slippery muck in the rainy season, making it difficult for Border Patrol vehicles to get to and through the area, said Armando Carrasco, a spokesman for the Defense Department's Joint Task Force Six headquartered at Fort Bliss, near El Paso.

The Marines also will build a bollard-style fence that will be 12 feet tall and stretch for nearly half a mile. It will be made of steel posts placed about 8 inches apart in a zig-zag pattern that allows water to pass while stopping people and vehicles, he said.

Several sections of the existing dirt road will be paved in concrete, including one stretch that is more than 800 yards long.

The Marines have set up a camp at Bisbee Municipal Airport on Bisbee Junction Road, and are expected to remain in the area for up to a month working under the auspices of the task force, which since 1989 has coordinated military training missions to support state, local and federal law enforcement agencies involved in drug enforcement.

The cost of the project is difficult to determine because the cost of labor and equipment is absorbed by the training mission. The cost of materials is covered by the requesting agency, he said.

* Contact reporter Ignacio Ibarra at 806-7746 or at ignacioi@prodigy.net.mx.

http://www.azstarnet.com/star/today/30828BORDER.MARINES.html

[seeker_two]

Marines upgrading road, fence near Naco AZ

Marines aren't trained to build paths for the illegals to follow. They're trained to kill people & break things....

While they're on the border, let's let them do just that... :evil:

[PDshooter]

You know when the "SHOOTING STARTS"
there'll stop coming!:cuss:


Shoot,Shovel,Shut-up!:evil:

[Marko Kloos]

If your "solution" to the illegal immigration problem is limited to "shoot the wetbacks", and this solution is put forward as a serious alternative by multiple posters, it's time to turn off the lights on this one.