"Why do you NEED a silencer?"


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PTK
June 30, 2008, 09:57 PM
I really get sick of hearing this question when people find out I have silencers, etc., and "I don't have to prove need" gets boring as an answer. To that end, I shot a video today at the range, showing why silencers are so very useful.

If any of you have fired the PLR-16, you know how loud they are - painful, even with plugs and earmuffs. However, by putting a silencer on the firearm, you can reduce the sound to that of a .22 rifle!

Link to the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGj6Kdmz-5U&feature=user)

I'm not sure how many of you would be interested in this, but it's a very good demonstration of the safety aspect of silencers regarding hearing protection. It still sounds like a gunshot, but it's nowhere near as disruptive.

I think Maxim was on to something. ;)


EDIT: This is an AAC M4-1000 silencer, by the way.

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K3
June 30, 2008, 10:14 PM
Dumb Question:

Do suppressors have any effect on muzzle velocity?

PTK
June 30, 2008, 10:14 PM
Generally, no. :)

That's the reason that PLR-16 still makes noise - the bullet goes supersonic, but the muzzleblast is all but gone.

HK G3
June 30, 2008, 10:15 PM
Honestly, suppressors should be readily available, for public safety.

It would help cut back on noise pollution, and be safer for the user's ears.

PTK
June 30, 2008, 10:18 PM
HK G3

EXACTLY the point of my making videos like this. I haven't found a better example than the PLR-16, though when my 30-06 pistol comes back from being threaded and having a silencer QD mount put on, it will probably beat this for an example. :)

CDignition
June 30, 2008, 10:20 PM
IT is very enjoyable to shoot with a can.. It reduces recoil and blast.

WinchesterAA
June 30, 2008, 10:25 PM
That's awesome, man. Thank you for posting that video.

As to the argument.. I think it's insane that people would want to regulate silencers at all. I mean, all those neighborhood dwellers that cry and complain about "BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG" from the local range wouldn't have that problem if silencers were affordable and easy to acquire..

It's almost like having your cake and eating it too, only the reason we can't do that now is because other people won't let us..

I want to be able to shoot in more spots, and other people don't want to hear it..

Having my cake is shooting, eating the cake is people not being subjected to loud noises..

Silencer.. The universal cakesaving fork that allows one to eat, and maintain said cake.

pyle
June 30, 2008, 10:26 PM
The better question would be: Why would you NOT want a silencer? I would love to have one for all my rifles and handguns. Don't guess they would work well for shotguns.... :scrutiny:

PTK
June 30, 2008, 10:29 PM
Exactly! Most of us here on THR understand the reasoning for silencers, but the folks across the USA in cities generally don't. I'm doing my part to educate, but I can only do so much by myself.

Zoogster
June 30, 2008, 10:36 PM
Mufflers are mandated by law for most vehicles. Mufflers are forbidden by law for firearms (not actualy since you can pay $200 and get special permission for a can, but essentialy.)

The technology is simple, the safety benefits are real.

They will write you a ticket if you take the muffler off your vehicle yet they require it stays off of firearms.

Legislation has kept firearms in the 19th century on many fronts.

bogie
June 30, 2008, 10:36 PM
Huh?

Solo Flyer
June 30, 2008, 10:37 PM
Most non-gunners think in movie and television terms.The Mob or the serial killer,or the assassination team using silencers.
This has created the fear and bias against the devices.

CaptMac
June 30, 2008, 10:41 PM
High frequency hearing loss is no joke; I lost the best job I ever had because of it.

PTK
June 30, 2008, 10:43 PM
Solo Flyer

You speak truths, but I aim to change that. Most folks think a silencer makes a gun SILENT - it doesn't! I've educated many people on that, as well. Anyone who looks interested/asks/stares while I'm shooting silenced guns at the range gets to try them out. :)

JKimball
June 30, 2008, 10:50 PM
"Because I can."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

dsoine
June 30, 2008, 11:07 PM
Great information and a very useful demonstration! Thanks.

best,

Dave

ctdonath
June 30, 2008, 11:10 PM
Because firing a short AR15 indoors at a violent intruder would be decidedly unpleasant, and I want to hear the judge afterwards.

Because firing a .50BMG made "hearing safe" (suppressed) is a lot more pleasant than firing one with a "auditory damage enhancer" (muzzle brake).

Because hearing the hammer strike, muzzle "pppft", and target "thunk" is hugely amusing having never heard those sounds behind the "BANG!!!" of an unsuppressed .22LR bolt-action.

Because hearing "ka-chunk, thump" just makes me smile when firing a Hollywood-quiet AR15.

Because keeping the noise down is courteous to the neighbors.

Because having an unsuppressed .308 go off 3 feet to the left, and 1 foot behind, your unprotected left ear, with subsequent absence of high frequencies, is a very disturbing experience.

ctdonath
June 30, 2008, 11:12 PM
FWIW: Silencer manufacturer Advanced Armament Corp. hosts a silencer-only shoot every fall near Atlanta. I highly recommend going. ...no, wait, take that back, there's too many people there already, no, it's in the Alaskan backcountry in January, um...

stevereno1
June 30, 2008, 11:12 PM
+1 for silenced deer rifles!

alaskanativeson
June 30, 2008, 11:34 PM
...there's too many people there already, no, it's in the Alaskan backcountry in January, um...


No, no, no, don't send everyone up to my portion of the country, I already left Utah because it was becoming infested with escapee **********ns... :p

(As opposed to the good people of California who we don't see move away)

Poor East Texan
June 30, 2008, 11:47 PM
The use of them make FAR too much sense (and we all know antis/gov have NO sense!)

Spinner
June 30, 2008, 11:49 PM
Here in New Zealand there are no restrictions at all on sound moderators (or silencers or whatever else you want to call them).

A lot of people who have .22s also have a moderator on them or at least for them. They're reasonably cheap and easily purchased ... in fact more easily purchased than ammunition for a .22!! Moderators are not as common on centrefire firearms, but they are becoming more popular from what I can tell.

Here we need to have a licence to own the firearm and we need to present that licence to purchase ammo (in an attempt to make sure that only licenced people can shoot), but a moderator can be bought without a firearms licence.

Here a moderator isn't considered to be a firearm (why would it?) and its not considered to be any more or less dangerous than a bipod or a sling. Its just something that gets attached to a firearm .... what's the big deal?

It seems like at least part of our firearms laws are not too far from common sense.

Jeff White
June 30, 2008, 11:51 PM
Because the VA pays me a 20% disability for hearing loss from my service in the Army and I don't want to make it worse.

Jeff

Crunker1337
July 1, 2008, 12:43 AM
I swear that I saw a video much like this one a few years ago.

PTK
July 1, 2008, 12:48 AM
I wouldn't know. I JUST made it today. Heck, I just picked up the silencer today! :)

ctdonath
July 1, 2008, 12:48 AM
Why?

http://www.advanced-armament.com/silencershoot/images/aac_silencershoot~thumb.jpg

http://www.aacblog.com/wp-content/uploads/aac_silencershoot_ad2.jpg (http://www.advanced-armament.com/silencershoot/index.asp)

Go.

You'll understand.

PTK
July 1, 2008, 12:51 AM
I do dearly love AAC products... still have an Evo45 and a 762SD on the way! :D

Crunker1337
July 1, 2008, 12:52 AM
I wouldn't know. I JUST made it today. Heck, I just picked up the silencer today!

Really... well, you've put it to use immediately :)

justin 561
July 1, 2008, 12:57 AM
My ears are perfect, and it would make a lot of sense to keep it that way. Silencers are clearly a smart way to go, less people to complain from range noise, easier on the shooters ears, also easier on the ears of fellow shooters next to him. We all know how loud it can get with 5-10 people shooting on the line.

ProguninTN
July 1, 2008, 12:57 AM
I don't have one but think they are a good idea for hearing protection. I especially think they would be good in indoor ranges. I've been at ranges with 2 layers (foam plugs in ears with muffs on top) and still the noise was loud.

PTK
July 1, 2008, 12:57 AM
Crunker1337

Yeah, here's how it went...

Home -> dealer -> range -> petrol (didn't think to refuel earlier!) -> home. :D

Lady with a Gun
July 1, 2008, 01:19 AM
It would certainly help to save the hearing of a large number of shooters. If it was not so much hassle, I would be using a suppressor. I would also be using standard hearing protection

Thernlund
July 1, 2008, 01:23 AM
Why do I need a silencer?

I don't. What does need have to do with anything? :confused:


-T.

PTK
July 1, 2008, 01:25 AM
Thernlund

Most of us here at THR understand that, but the general public doesn't. That's why I made this video publicly available... I WANT it to be distributed and shown to many people, so that silencers can be seen as what they truly are - hearing protection.

DoubleTapDrew
July 1, 2008, 01:46 AM
Great vid. I recently got a .22lr can and want more (probably a .223 next). I now understand why they tend to multiply. The PLR is a great demo platform. Mine boarders on obnoxious.
I couldn't help but cringe a little when you were putting it on with the mag in and one in the pipe, but it did look like the safety was on :)
We do need to change public opinion to counter the decades of damage hollywood has done to the reputation of suppressors.

Thernlund
July 1, 2008, 01:50 AM
Most of us here at THR understand that, but the general public doesn't. That's why I made this video publicly available... I WANT it to be distributed and shown to many people, so that silencers can be seen as what they truly are - hearing protection.

Oh I know. Although it may have appeared so, my comment wasn't pointed at you. I did read your post. I was just throwing out the obvious answer for anyone listening. ;)


-T.

gtmerkley
July 1, 2008, 01:53 AM
I need a silencer for medical reasons the fruid in my ears amps the sound.

taliv
July 1, 2008, 02:05 AM
don't get me wrong, i would love for everyone to have a suppressor, but i'm not really on the suppressor bandwagon as much as i used to be.

that said, i've got 5 (KAC, KAC, Smith/Fisher Enterprise, AWC, YHM) and thinking about picking up either a gemtech or ops inc. (in fact, I called ops today but no one ever answered the phone :( )

still, i recognize the safety benefits, but they're somewhat mitigated imho.

a) there are a lot of retards running around who think that just because your 223/308 is only as loud as a 22lr, that you no longer need to wear hearing protection. they do a lot more damage to their hearing that way than if they had just worn ear plugs.

b) it's easier to wear ear plugs than a respirator, which is what you need with a lot of rifle/suppressor combos

beyond safety, they make the gun run a LOT hotter, can cause issues in gas-operated guns, and can be a real PITA to remove when carbon cements them into place. speaking of carbon, the fouling is out of control.

i see two main reasons to run a suppressor.

1. because the gov't doesn't like it
2. for the sake of OTHER people's hearing (or especially for pets like a hunting dog)

freakshow10mm
July 1, 2008, 02:11 AM
When people ask me that, I rip off their ear muffs and hold the gun close to their ear and dump a mag. That usually gets their attention. Can ya hear me now? Didn't think so.

PTK
July 1, 2008, 02:14 AM
I couldn't help but cringe a little when you were putting it on with the mag in and one in the pipe, but it did look like the safety was on

Note how I put the silencer on (and yes, safety on). ;)

everallm
July 1, 2008, 09:33 AM
Because as a good person I feel it is incumbent upon me to adhere to federally mandated OSHA guidelines on sound abatement.....It's for the children......:evil:

feedthehogs
July 1, 2008, 09:40 AM
Because we have something called the bill of rights, not the bill of needs.

Eric F
July 1, 2008, 10:25 AM
Because we have something called the bill of rights, not the bill of needs.
that is a poor arguement, as a supressor(scilencer) is not a firearm are and there fore not guarented by the bill of rights. It is simply regulated because it can be. There is no real threat or excessive danger of them other than fear. Basically their regulation was done IMO for money.

32winspl
July 1, 2008, 10:42 AM
I have a couple of (probably dumb) questions. Prior to watching that video, I've only ever even seen one suppressor, and had never actually heard how well they attenuate the noise, so I'd never considered one.
Is the $200 tax applied to each supressor or does it allow you to buy/own more than one?
Is the tax a one-time cost for the unit or does it have to be renewed annually?
Does the supressor, (assuming that it fills with carbon/junk over time) have a limited life or can it be cleaned?
Thanks.

Eric F
July 1, 2008, 10:47 AM
all the ones I have seen can be cleaned you need to pay the $200 tax 1 time per item. Some supressors can be tough to clean like permanately attached units. Also if you have a SBR and buy a supressor then you have to pay 2 seperate $200 taxes but if you buy a sbr with a permanately attached supressor its just 1 $200 tax.

freakshow10mm
July 1, 2008, 10:55 AM
that is a poor arguement, as a supressor(scilencer) is not a firearm are and there fore not guarented by the bill of rights.

Two things wrong here. First, the BOR doesn't guarantee any rights, it says what rights the government cannot infringe upon.

Second, a suppressor is most definitely a firearm. Both the GCA and NFA say it is.

From the GCA as codified in 18 USC §921(a)(3)(C):

(3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

From the NFA as codified in 26 USC §5845(a)(7), note the reference to the GCA in 18 USC §921.

(a) Firearm The term “firearm” means
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

18 USC §921(a)(24)

(24) The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.

27 CFR §478.124

(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received.

Vibe
July 1, 2008, 10:56 AM
that is a poor arguement, as a supressor(scilencer) is not a firearm are and there fore not guarented by the bill of rights. It is simply regulated because it can be. There is no real threat or excessive danger of them other than fear. Basically their regulation was done IMO for money.
Well according to the NFA yes it is a firearm. :D
The regulation was not for the piddling sum the revenue brings in, it was solely meant as a deterent.

freakshow10mm
July 1, 2008, 10:58 AM
The US Fish and Wildlife Dept. was the pusher for getting suppressors on the list. When the NFA bill was drafted, the country was deep in depression. They feared people would use them for poaching, hence their regulation and high (for that time period) transfer and making tax.

UhKlem
July 1, 2008, 11:04 AM
Why do SWAT teams 'need' suppressors? Why are they legal for law enforcement? Do libs/hoplophobes believe our police are death squads? So there must be a legitimate use for them, right? Personally, I do it for the children. I never know if their young, developing ears are properly sealed by plugs and muffs are built over-sized for adult ears. A suppressor takes away a lot of blast and fear making it so I can instruct without looking like I am yelling.

Finally, do most criminals think they will get caught? Not likely. That's why even though a suppressor effective enough for crimes is cheap and easy to implement, you very rarely hear of criminals using these items. It's the same thing with destructive devices. I can't even remember the last time someone used a Molotov which about the simplest improvised DD. Against common structures they are extremely effective, more so than even HE blast.

Liberals so lack self control that they project their inner rage onto others, but when you look at sinple technology such as suppressors and molotovs, it is empirically obvious that criminals who aren't afraid of breaking laws, and don't think they will get caught could be using these improvised items if they had common criminal utility.

The legal and postive uses of explosives and suppressors far outweigh the occasional criminal misuse.

Eric F
July 1, 2008, 11:12 AM
Well I guess I stand corrected, I did not see that before, I had years ago read a document from the ATF that said a supressor was not a firearm but it was regulated by NFA. I guess they were refering to it is not a firearm as in with sights trigger and hammer, however it is clearly defined as a firearm by NFA.........stupid IMO kinda like saying a muffler is a car as defined by some goofy DOT doccument.

ctdonath
July 1, 2008, 11:14 AM
Such bizzare definitions are not uncommon in law.
In New York, a rifle is legally not a firearm.

Eric F
July 1, 2008, 11:16 AM
Why do SWAT teams 'need' suppressors? Why are they legal for law enforcement? Do libs/hoplophobes believe our police are death squads? So there must be a legitimate use for them, right?
Sound control, its quite deffening to shoot a 223 in a closed room plus these guys shoot really close to eachother from time to time and I would rather not have a gun go off in close proximity to my ear. Legal NFA excludes lawenforcement and military. Death squads of corse not they are there to protect us from ourselves right? Yes sound control for hearing protection.

LiquidTension
July 1, 2008, 11:26 AM
I don't think I've shot my AR unsuppressed since I got the can. The only time I've shot my .22 unsuppressed since getting the can for that one is when I demonstrate the difference in sound level.

A suppressed .22 is some of the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Cheap and quieter than a BB gun.

You do have to clean more often. My AR gets completely filthy. It'll also spray some gas back in your face unless you do some minor mods (like adding RTV sealant to the charging handle). I love it though, and as soon as I get my SBRs done I'm going to get an SWR Trident for my 9mms.

freakshow10mm
July 1, 2008, 11:39 AM
Eric F, the unfortunate thing about the ATF is that the inter-department/agency communication is like playing operator. No one knows what the real deal is. One agent will be different from another.

My ATF dude that did my compliance interview said suppressors don't need to be put on 4473s because they are not a firearm, but a firearm accessory. He said they don't shoot anything, they are like a muzzle brake (in the sense that they are an attachment to a firearm) but are taxed and regulated.

I nodded and smiled, then called the NFA branch. They cited the USC and NFA as I posted above and said most definitely put a suppressor on a 4473.

When dealing with the ATF, double check and get it in writing.

M203Sniper
July 1, 2008, 03:17 PM
Because I have bought the best eye protection I can afford and now I want the best form of ear protection.

I wear sunblock at the range too. :)

brighamr
July 1, 2008, 03:58 PM
My favorite answer to the orgional question:
"Why do you need a silencer?"
Me: "WHAT??? I CAN"T HEAR YOU!!! IF I HAD A SILENCER I WOULD STILL HAVE MY HEARING" screaming as loud as you can.

sometime's they'll get the clue...



"Legal NFA excludes lawenforcement and military" - that's the real problem right there. All or nothing. If LEO can have them without all the NFA bs, we should too.

nutty7462
July 1, 2008, 04:04 PM
Yes, but why do you NEED a PLR-16?:evil:

DoubleTapDrew
July 1, 2008, 04:50 PM
Yes, but why do you NEED a PLR-16?
One word: Zombies.

ctdonath
July 1, 2008, 04:53 PM
Zombies
That was given as a reason on an actual Form 4 submission.
The form was accepted.

Jamie C.
July 1, 2008, 04:59 PM
"Why do you NEED a silencer?"

So the burglar can hear me talking to him while I shoot at him. :evil:


J.C.

PTK
July 1, 2008, 05:01 PM
These "witty" responses are getting tiresome, folks. :)

Jamie C.
July 1, 2008, 05:09 PM
Sorry, PTK, but they're all I have time for right now. I'll try to work up some witless ones later.

( Why is it always right around the holidays when stuff wants to break down or otherwise see to it that I have to stay busy? )


J.C.

Rachen
July 1, 2008, 05:16 PM
"So I can hear the voices in my head when I shoot":eek::D:D

-Posted by a certain THR or TFL member some years ago.

Sorry, I just can't resist bringing this up!:D:D:D:D:D

Timthinker
July 1, 2008, 05:20 PM
Until quite recently, I believed silencers were a gimmick for Mall Ninja types. But after watching and listening to some videos of silenced .22 long rifle firearms, I have changed my position. I truly believe that commercial silencers can suppress enough noise to make one's shooting experience more pleasurable. In fact, I was amazed at the degree of effectiveness demonstrated. Count me in as a silencer supporter.


Timthinker

PTK
July 1, 2008, 11:19 PM
Timthinker

Your response alone was worth my time and effort. Keep us all updated on it, you can see people love to hear about silencers. :)

Conqueror
July 2, 2008, 12:30 AM
I don't even enjoy shooting unsuppressed weapons any more. I have cans on every firearm I own and plan to continue that trend.

scrat
July 2, 2008, 12:35 AM
i think its too each there own. i like noise. i like shooting my noise makers. but i know that i need to wear ear protection as they are pretty loud. So i accept that.

KingTiger
July 2, 2008, 11:15 AM
Silencers are a NFA gateway product. I never thought I'd buy a machine gun until I got into silencers. Makes my M11/9 sound like a sewing machine with GA Arms 147 gr. FMC subsonics at 950 FPS.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x119/KingTiger_photo/th_CreeksideSubsonics.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x119/KingTiger_photo/?action=view&current=CreeksideSubsonics.flv)

moooose102
July 2, 2008, 11:57 AM
i would love to be able to use a silencer, but unfourunatly, here in "gustoppo" michigan, they are strictly illegal. get caught with one, go to jail. not that i am a criminal, i would just like to be able to shoot without hearing protection. and having one on the home protection gun would also be very nice. i actually contacted the michigan state police about this after finding a website that sold "supressors". so now, i am probably on some kind of "crimial intent" or "terrorist" list. yipiee!

freakshow10mm
July 2, 2008, 12:21 PM
If Cox would get off his butt and write up the opinion like he did for the MGs. He said he was going to, but that was 2.5yrs ago.

SOTs can possess suppressors, but individuals can't.

eastwood44mag
July 2, 2008, 03:17 PM
Why do you NEED a silencer?

I don't, but the people who come shooting with me and forget their hearing protection do.:D

MD_Willington
July 2, 2008, 04:50 PM
So as to not annoy my neighbors, that would be "neighborly of me to use one" and protect my hearing :neener:

Afy
July 2, 2008, 05:54 PM
I have suppressors on every weapon that is threaded. Including my .22LR and .260

It reduces the noise, and on the .260 reduces felt recoil to .22 LR levels.

My .300 WM has muzzle brake... and boy its loud. It will get rebarelled soon. And then guess what... suppressor time.

Tyris
July 2, 2008, 06:12 PM
If Cox would get off his butt and write up the opinion like he did for the MGs. He said he was going to, but that was 2.5yrs ago.

He's not going to do it.

He's dragged his feet for a long time and is trying to run out the clock. It is clear that he's got reservations about it, else it would have taken him 30 minutes to type up an opinion reversing the Kelly opinion.

Cox shot his wad with the MG opinion. We should certainly be thankful for that, but I would not hold my breath for another one.

-T

ndh87
July 2, 2008, 06:14 PM
It would be nice if they weren't restricted, maybe then the neighbors would stop complaining.

KI.W.
July 4, 2008, 02:33 PM
I have silencers with my .22 LR Anschutz rifle and .22 Hornet and .357 Rem Maximum T/C Contender pistols. I handload also subsonic for them.
[url]http://www.brtuote.fi/reflex.php
http://snipercentral.com/index.phtml
http://www.jaki.fi

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