Why choose 8 pellet 00Buck over 9 or 12 pellet???


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alpha6164
July 1, 2008, 11:32 PM
I have been doing quite a bit of reading on defensive shots for shotguns and it seems that the majority of sources recommend 00Buck, with #1 or #4Buck coming in 2nd and 3rd.

Now i am only talking about 2 3/4" shells. What i cant figure out is why would one pick an 8 pellet 00Buck over a 9 or 12 pellet 00Buck. And in the same line of thinking why would one pick a 2 3/4" 8 pellet 00Buck over a 2 3/4" 8 pellet 000Buck? Is it basically just a recoil issue? I mean all else being equal would it not be better to have 8 pellets of 000Buck over 00Buck? And within 00Buck line why not have 12 or 9 over an 8 pellet shot? All inputs appreciated.

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TAB
July 1, 2008, 11:34 PM
less recoil

TCW
July 1, 2008, 11:55 PM
What TAB said.

shotgunkevin
July 1, 2008, 11:59 PM
Most of the 8 pellet 00 buck loadings are reduced recoil "tactical" loads. They'll offer reduced recoil, as mentioned, but most of them will also exhibit tighter patterns.

rantingredneck
July 2, 2008, 12:03 AM
Indeed. Less recoil and typically tighter patterns.

In every shotgun I've compared them, Remington Managed Recoil will pattern tighter than standard 9 pellet Remington Express loads.

ArmedBear
July 2, 2008, 12:24 AM
Note also that the anticipated use of buckshot for home defense would be at very close range.

8 balls is plenty at 15 feet! An easier-to-handle gun and a faster followup shot are more valuable than another ball.

KenW.
July 2, 2008, 12:30 AM
My agency uses 000-buck; that's six-.36 cal pellets.

Zoogster
July 2, 2008, 03:26 AM
Mainly recoil. Recoil is reduced by either having a lighter payload or a lower velocity. Lower velocity reduces effectiveness of each pellet, and lower payload reduces the amount of pellets being effective.
Obviously 1 less pellet being effective is better than 9 pellets being less effective.
I am a big opponent of all reduced recoil loads though. People used to be even smaller than the average now and they worked just fine.
Are bigger people today less capable of dealing with the same loads?

The often touted and praised stopping power of the 12 gauge has come from full power loads.
Each pellet is already only as effective as a small caliber pistol. Anything that reduces effectiveness even further makes little sense to me.

000 buck is not necessarily better than 00 buck. The larger the pellet the further it penetrates. The smaller the pellet the more tissue is impacted by the payload, and more lead can be fit in the shell.
The ideal size pellet is the smallest one that can penetrate deep enough for a given target.
Even 00 buck is considered larger than needed for humans, and as a result has less stopping power than a couple of the smaller buckshot loads at close range. The reason it was chosen by police over the years is that it is more versatile.
Larger pellets retain energy better at range. They can also penetrate some light cover and still provide some stopping power or wounding that a pellet optimized for direct impact would not.

00 Buck could be used from a good distance, and could also be used at closer distances involving light cover.

So even 00 buck is a compromise that was chosen because it is the most versatile in a large number of situations. It was then popular with others because what the police choose always has a large civilian following. They are after all seen as the "experts" on the use of force by many.

000 would provide even less damage than 00 buck, it would just have more penetration than necessary and retain energy even further distances.

Robert Hairless
July 2, 2008, 03:42 AM
Does anyone else think that message threads like this one demonstrate an Internet gun forum at its best? The depth is almost incredible. The ease and grace with which it's presented is even more so.

Lovely. A real pleasure to read.

San Francisquito Bill
July 2, 2008, 04:50 AM
I think that the reduced recoil argument must also take into account the other aspects of ballistics. If I could buy a shotgun round that would minimize the potential of danger to bystanders, and would guarantee to "disappear" the bad guy, but recoiled like a "noisy cricket". i'd buy it!

One thing I look at is the ballistic effectiveness of a standard 12ga load over a reduced recoil load, and my personal opinion is that the standard load isn't enough of a ballistic advantage (that I've seen) over the reduced recoil to justify the slower follow-up shots and (generally) increased pattern.

Because of this, I favor the reduced-recoil loads, but if I could be convinced that there was a significant increase in stopping power, penetration of intermediate barriers, or other verifiable advantage of a standard load over reduced recoil, I'd definately consider a switch, or at least to have standard loads available.

Dave McCracken
July 2, 2008, 08:15 AM
House ammo here is R/R 8 pellet. Testing shows it'll do the job for the reasons cited above.

I have experimented with 6 pellet 00 loads for HD. Seems like they will work also(though not in most autos) and kick is miniscule.

ArmedBear
July 2, 2008, 09:34 AM
The often touted and praised stopping power of the 12 gauge has come from full power loads.

Not really. When you get into shooting vintage guns, you see that shells have gotten bigger and loads heavier over the years. 2 1/2" shells were once common, then for various reasons we got 2 3/4", 3" and finally 3.5".

A big shell, little more payload, a lot more recoil, and people feel like the round will be more effective. It's not necessarily true. .38 Special +P in an Airweight feels more powerful than .44 Magnum in a 7 1/2" Redhawk.

I got a case of 16 Gauge 2 1/2" shells for an old double. They're very light loads by modern standards, but they work. They have very little recoil, and they're effective for their purpose (not home defense). The reputation of shotguns of various gauges was built on loads much lighter than we think of as "standard".

In the rifle forum, you'll find people saying that .30-30 is only a 100-yard cartridge for use on smaller deer. This is demonstrably false. But magnum mania rules the day. Shotgunners are susceptible to similar perceptions -- myself included.

Food for thought, that's all.:)

riverdog
July 2, 2008, 10:12 AM
Note also that the anticipated use of buckshot for home defense would be at very close range.

8 balls is plenty at 15 feet! An easier-to-handle gun and a faster followup shot are more valuable than another ball.The faster follow-up shot means that for the loss of one ball there could be 8 more going downrange, that is significant. Right now I'm loaded with 1 Buck, but I may go back to 00B in an RR load.

The tighter pattern reasoning I hadn't considered, but I may need to buy a few boxes of the Remington Managed Recoil to see just how the pattern improves from my 20" RS barrel. If the tighter pattern holds true for that barrel the decision will have been made.

icecorps
July 2, 2008, 11:21 AM
Pattern.

Eight out of eight on target beats six out or nine.

SimpleIsGood229
July 2, 2008, 11:53 AM
I keep Federal R/R 9-pellet 00B in my Benelli mainly because of the super-tight patterns-- +/- 4.5'' at 15 yards. Quick follow-up shots are very important, so that's--as previously mentioned--a big reason to go with these R/R loads.

I've tested out some 12-pellet 00B (2 3/4'') and let me tell ya, they kick way more. Besides, there is a lot to be said for shot placement. ;)

MortalWombat
July 2, 2008, 01:08 PM
I have experimented with 6 pellet 00 loads for HD. Seems like they will work also(though not in most autos) and kick is miniscule.
Are these commercial loads, or hand loads?

alpha6164
July 2, 2008, 03:55 PM
Well i went to the range today and took two types of rounds. I managed to find TAP FPD 2 3/4" 8 pellet and Winchester Super X Magnum 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00Buck shots. The Super X did not say "low recoil" or managed recoil.

As far as recoil goes i could not tell the difference at all between the two. Although the TAP FPD did not say low recoil i am assuming with 8 pellets and home defense that it would be but not sure.

As far as pattern goes the TAP FPD patterned the same at about 7 and 15yards. But at 25 yards, the TAP FPD was tighter a bit. The two furthest pellets in the Winchester was about 11" apart but in the TAP FPD, the two furthest pellets apart was about 9". I am not sure if the Remingon Managed Recoil will have less recoil but i could not tell the difference in the Benelli M4 between the two above. I did try some #8 birdshots and obviously the recoil was significantly less.

Old Grump
July 2, 2008, 04:52 PM
#6 shot out of my 20 gauge will blow a hole through a 2x4 at 10' and thats enough penetration for me. Less likely to blow holes in my walls and the light recoil and reduced muzzle flash means my eyes aren't out of business and I can still hear. Makes a 2nd shot possible if needed. Have no intention of killing anybody, the thing is to stop an attack and a load of pellets in my side would sure stop me from wanting to go any direction but away.

alpha6164
July 2, 2008, 05:16 PM
Unfortunately i am on the opposing side. If the time ever arises (which i hope it never will) that i have to defend myself or family at home in the middle of the night by an intruder(s) i am shooting to kill. A pissed of or injured person doesnt do me any good.

Your theory of a load of shot in somebodys side would make them turn around is completely false. As a physician and working in a trauma 1 hospital for 6yrs, i have seen more cracked/methed out guys that were shot multiple times in not-lethal zones and continued to attack and move forward.

ArmedBear
July 2, 2008, 05:21 PM
A pissed of or injured person doesnt do me any good.

You figure that someone shot with 8 pellets of 00 buck going 1200 fps is just going to be pissed off, whereas someone shot with 9 pellets going 1325 is going to drop dead?

i have seen more cracked/methed out guys that were shot multiple times in not-lethal zones and continued to attack and move forward.

Shot placement always matters.

35Rem
July 2, 2008, 05:32 PM
POst 19 was a reply to post 18 about the use of BIRDshot. Post 19 is not refering to OO Buck

alpha6164
July 2, 2008, 05:54 PM
ArmedBear ,
You figure that someone shot with 8 pellets of 00 buck going 1200 fps is just going to be pissed off, whereas someone shot with 9 pellets going 1325 is going to drop dead?





35Rem got it right. I was referring to Oldgrump's post about using #6 birdshot:)

KBintheSLC
July 2, 2008, 06:12 PM
The classic buckshot worm can... now open.

I personally prefer a standard load, 2 3/4" 12ga #4 buckshot with 21 pellets. This is why. I live in an apartment in which my maximum range is not more than 15 feet. At that distance, those 21 pellets will sever limbs, and make cranial cavities explode in a miraculous manner... without too many over-penetration worries through multiple walls.

Is 00 buck better? That is relative to the purpose for which it is used. For police duty, or for defending a large house or building, 00 buck seems to be the best compromise. As for reduced recoil loads... all I can say is why? It's a 12 ga... should we not let it do what it does best?

ArmedBear
July 2, 2008, 06:13 PM
Ah. Pardon my misunderstanding.

I certainly concur re birdshot!

I know someone who shot himself with birdshot, as in attempted suicide with a shotgun at contact range. It didn't kill him. Screwed him up really bad, but if he dies, it will be after a long time in the hospital.

Birdshot is not a home-defense load. Works on birds, but the largest ones we hunt weigh 3 lbs.

CWL
July 2, 2008, 06:18 PM
It's not the amount of 00 shot, it's all about the pattern.

Low recoil is an added benefit.

ltetmhs
July 2, 2008, 06:19 PM
Use what you feel comfortable with. If you and your gun shoot 8 balls better than 12, then just shoot again and your already ahead 4 balls.:D

Dave McCracken
July 2, 2008, 06:47 PM
Wombat,the 6 pellet stuff were some reloads I worked up and not commercial. Still has more ME than 44 mag loads and patterned nicely.

KenW.
July 2, 2008, 09:08 PM
When asked about why we use 000, the armorer said it's because the pattern is better. 00 usually had at least one "flyer" well outside the main pattern; whereas 000 did not.

Youngster
July 2, 2008, 09:21 PM
000 buck is not necessarily better than 00 buck. The larger the pellet the further it penetrates. The smaller the pellet the more tissue is impacted by the payload, and more lead can be fit in the shell.
The ideal size pellet is the smallest one that can penetrate deep enough for a given target.
Even 00 buck is considered larger than needed for humans, and as a result has less stopping power than a couple of the smaller buckshot loads at close range. The reason it was chosen by police over the years is that it is more versatile.
Larger pellets retain energy better at range. They can also penetrate some light cover and still provide some stopping power or wounding that a pellet optimized for direct impact would not.

000 pellets smash through bone and barriers that much more impressively and also seem less prone to deflection, I believe they are a worthy tradeoff versus 8 or 9 pellet 00.

sinistr
July 4, 2008, 05:06 PM
+1 000,do not have follow up problems with 2/34 magnum in a semi at interior ranges.

jad0110
July 4, 2008, 05:27 PM
I keep Federal R/R 9-pellet 00B in my Benelli mainly because of the super-tight patterns-- +/- 4.5'' at 15 yards. Quick follow-up shots are very important, so that's--as previously mentioned--a big reason to go with these R/R loads.

I've got the same load in my Mossie 590A (Federal Tacticle with FliteControl) and get the same 4.5" groups at 15 yards (by comparison, I was getting 14" groups with standard PMC 00). And I could even use the word "pleasant" to desribe the felt recoil in my heavy 590. Pretty impressive stuff.

Chilean
July 4, 2008, 06:10 PM
well, not long ago, a guy here in the forum, wrote about how he could not stop a pitbull with 3 rounds of R/R 00. After that, I'm in the full power loads camp

Before all of you jump on me :) , I know that a Pitbull is a tougher than a tipical goblin.

the thread is here
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=280172&highlight=pitbull

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