I was almost involved in 2 shootings (part 2 of 2)

So after the event on Thursday
I was in very close proximity of a gun battle http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=375587
I was still a bit on edge Friday. We had a family bbq and my wife’s folks came over. They left and said they would be back for my nephew’s bikes and plates they brought later. Ok that’s fine. In the mean time my wife wanted to take our daughter over to a friend’s house and let her play with our friends kids. I was in the kitchen with the radio on listening to music I had just gotten off the phone with my wife so I knew she was gone I had just let the cat:barf: (ok don’t get me started!) in the house and I was doing dishes. I have almost never carried my gun in my house but sometimes keep it very close up high out of reach. A few hours had passed since the in-laws left and I had just finished washing dishes. I started putting dishes away when I heard something I couldn’t exactly tell what it was and assumed it was the cat getting into something again. Then I heard some foot steps creaking on out hard wood floors!:eek: My mouth got instantly dry because no one was supposed to be in the house and I had locked the doors! I was instantly mad and scared at the same time( a real bad combination):fire: I drew my 1911 took the safety off and listened for a second and could hear the steps were just out side the kitchen so I stepped around the corner sweeping the dining room as I rounded the corned I did have my finger on the trigger! Just as I get the target in view there is my Father in law standing there looking angry at me! I pause for a second and take the gun down and stick it back in my waist band and the argument ensues!
Why are you pointing a gun at me!
What the hell are you doing in my house!
I came to get the bikes!
They are out side!
I just wanted to let you know I was here!
How did you get in!
I have a spare key……..why do you have a pistol!
He is a half liberal anti pistol kind of guy. We have had it out before about guns in my house and his usual argument the baby can get into your guns, ammunition, reloading equipment ect. We have also had words several times about him just showing up unannounced coming over to hang out and now just walking on in my house. I asked why he didn’t ring the door bell knock or at least give a yell when he came in? His reply I didn’t think it was necessary. I chewed him out a bit and he stomped off to load the bikes. I called my wife and was telling her about it when he came back inside and said he was calling the police. I said what ever and he left. I am still angry over the whole thing. I thought about calling the police first but decided not to and let my wife handle him. As I thought the police never came over but I am sure this fight is not over yet.

Sounds like the father in law needs a lesson in manners regarding coming into houses unannounced. I would also consider re-keying your house, and don't give them a key! If you are lucky, staring down the business end of a 1911 will wake him up, but probably not.

He's calling the police...because you drew your weapon on a trespasser in your home? That's ridiculous. I'm sure LE officer would have seen it similarly.

Why is he using a spare key in your home without at the very least ascertaining whether anyone is home? Especially when the bikes were outside? THAT sounds suspicious to me.

guy sounds like a real winner,my wife's uncle is like that,always walking in and such,my advise to you is this,have a sit down with him,explain that even tho you are cool with him coming over,that is if you are,you would like for him to call before hand,atleast knock before barging in,tell him ,how would he feel if he walked in and you and his daughter were having sex on the couch?dont think he will want to see that,dont have to say ,hey i might blow your brains out one on these times,hjopefully this works for youin my case with her uncle i flat out told him,if you do it again i am going to beat your ass,but on my defence i dont like him at all,can understand how you are feeling after being soo close to a gunfight,try talking to someone about it,can understand how it would have you on edge,talking usueally helps when you are on overdrive,hope it works out for you

Demand the turn over of that key.

Even then, be sure to change the locks.

I've got a spare key to my father's house-- and I have an armed father and mother.

When I go to the house, I knock. If they don't answer, I usually look in the garage to see if a car is missing. If they are all there, I often call the house on my cell phone from the door. It's a big house, and they many not hear me knock (no ringer on the back door-- which I use often)

Barring any response-- and I have a need to get in the house-- I unlock the door. I'll immediately know if they are gone if the security system starts beeping, and I'll key in the code and make myself at home. If it doesn't start beeping, I yell back into the house that I'm here.

What I DON'T do is go walking through the house unannounced. At best, I don't get shot. At worst, I don't walk into something that could result in years of therapy.


My Dad does the same thing if he has to enter my house as well.


After the break-in we had in Dec. 2006, our entire family has changed our awareness of entering homes.



Your father-in-law, if you will pardon me, is a twit.


-- John

I call it a draw--50% culpability for each person in creating an unnecessarily dangerous situation.

guy sounds like a real winner

Indeed.

Rekey the house ASAP. Maybe I'm just of a paranoid sort, but I'd not be surprised that after this run in, you FIL "drops by" and removes those evil guns for the safety of his granddaughter. You being so unstable as to stalk around the house with a loaded pistol and all.

I'll never understand the mindset of just entering another home unannounced and unbidden if not bent on mischief. Over the years I've had keys to several homes of family and friends, and even when they've asked me to do stuff like feed the cat while away, I will always knock first. Just on the off chance that they came home early.

That's the weapon's purpose. When you heard someone in the house, you checked it out safely. No one was shot.
Make him understand that.

Sound like typical "You're just the husband, but she's MY little girl!" type conflict.

Change the locks, police up the keys, and make your wife understand that if she caves in to the demands for the new key (and they will demand), that someone could be killed next time.

More importantly, if you don't man up and draw some boundaries, this guy will be running your house for the next 20 years.

I call it a draw--50% culpability for each person in creating an unnecessarily dangerous situation.


I disagree. When you KNOW the wife isn't anywhere around (he just got off the phone with her), and then you hear someone bumping around in your house, I see NOTHING that places blame on the OP.

As I see it.....


In my house, two adults and two dogs live here. The Jack Russells follow me whereever I go. If I am here, and I have the JRTs looking up at me wanting doggie-bisquits, and Jenn is off with her Mom or something (and I just spoke to her), and THEN I hear someone IN my house....

I can do the math:

Jenn gone.............. Check
Hattie at my feet.... Check
Josie jumping on my leg.......Check
I'm not having an out-of-body-experience....... Check

Who ELSE is supposed to be in this house? No one.


THEY are at fault when (not if) I come through with a firearm.



-- John

I had a dog that was very aggressive and very protective of my daughter. When my father in law came back for a visit from Arizona, I told him to stay away from the dog and not to touch my daughter when he was in the dog's eyesight.

That evening my daughter went out to feed the dog.(we had him chaned out side because of the visitors) My father in law tried to scare her by grabbing her by the shoulders and yelling boo. The dog missed his crotch by less than an inch. If he had been chaned to a tree instead of the deck, he would have gotten my father in law right in a very sensitive spot.

He came back in the house and started yelling about how could we have an aggressive dog like that and that he should borrow a gun and shoot the dog. My daugther's response was to sneak out the back door and bring the dog in the laundry room. She closed the door and the dog started digging at the door trying to get thru. She told my father in law that she did not like people threatening her dog and that she figured he would be thru the door in about 1 minute.

My father in law turned white and left. He never came back in my house in the remaining 10 years that he was alive.:D

Quote:
I call it a draw--50% culpability for each person in creating an unnecessarily dangerous situation.


I disagree. When you KNOW the wife isn't anywhere around (he just got off the phone with her), and then you hear someone bumping around in your house, I see NOTHING that places blame on the OP.

Nah. Someone has a key to the house and, somehow, he doesn't know about it.

Plus, he knew that the old man was coming back for the bikes.

The OP gets 50% of the blame for creating the unnecessarily dangerous situation.

Of course, the FIL is culpable for walking into a house using a key that the owner (a known gun-owner/carrier) doesn't know about. (I don't speak of legal blame--if the OP shoots the FIL, he may very well be OK legally.)

I call it a draw. No pun intended....

I call it a draw--50% culpability for each person in creating an unnecessarily dangerous situation.

Really? And how did you come to that conclusion?

FCFC,

We are going to have to disagree.

I refuse to give blame to a person responding to a person in his house with certainty that it isn't an occupant in such a manner.

Every month, the Water guy comes and reads my meter. So does the Power guy. I have no expectations that they will use a key and come in my home.

Even if the FIL WAS coming for the bikes, there should have been NO reason to believe that he would be in the house unannounced or without permission.

I'll concede that the one thing that the OP did to contribute to this situation was giving the FIL a key to begin with.

But you know what? In many cases, that isn't realistic. My FIL and MIL both have keys to my house. So do my Mother and Father.

I have to have this because of where we live and the sometimes need for someone to do something at my home while I am away.

But I can say unequivocably that my parents and in-laws know better than this guy.


-- John

More importantly, if you don't man up and draw some boundaries, this guy will be running your house for the next 20 years.
Well folks this is my point. We have had issues and words over this and I have drawn lines. He repeatedly disobeys my rules and wishes. I have been talking with my wife about this all morning and He will be told today that yesterday was the last time. Next time tresspassing charges will be taken out. He is not to come over any more with out being asked to. It is sad that it has come to this but we are thrugh with it. And BTW I though catching us on the couch would have stoped it already but it didnt! Nah. Someone has a key to the house and, somehow, he doesn't know about it.

Plus, he knew that the old man was coming back for the bikes.
I gave the key to him 8 years ago. I was never a problem until he retired. Yes I did know he was comming for the bikes but they went in my house they were in the drive way. what dont you understand about that. He had no reason at all to come into my house.

Tell your FIL that whenever he comes to someone's house he should announce himself out of courtesy if not a sense of self preservation. Remind him that since he isn't contributing to the rent/mortgage he has no real or perceived rights to access to the property. While he's always welcome, he should show the respect to family that he would to strangers.

If he brings up the gun, tell him he should thank God that you followed good gun handling practices and identified your target before shooting.

I don't think you need to rekey the place unless you don't want him having access under any circumstances.

Now, put in a simple alarm system that incorporates a door annunciator so that anyone coming through a door is announced if the alarm isn't on.

"His reply I didn’t think it was necessary."

I bet he rings the damn doorbell next time! :what:

"He had no reason at all to come into my house."

Bingo. That he has a key is irrelevant. That he was coming back for the bikes is also irrelevant. I have keys to various family members houses and friends, and you NEVER enter another persons house unless asked to or announcing yourself loudly as in ring bell, knock, etc. Having a key to a person's house is not, at any time, and open invite to use it, unless that's been stated by owner. That's just common decency. It also means there will not be altercations and or walking in on people during 'private' moments, etc. Any person here who can't grasp that needs to rethink the concepts of common decency and respect for each others homes and privacy. Home owner was 100% correct, in-law 100% wrong and lucky it ended as it did. He should have apologized and realized his mistake. I'm amazed this is even a question in this thread.

Nah. Someone has a key to the house and, somehow, he doesn't know about it.

Plus, he knew that the old man was coming back for the bikes.

I gave the key to him 8 years ago. I was never a problem until he retired. Yes I did know he was comming for the bikes but they went in my house they were in the drive way. what dont you understand about that. He had no reason at all to come into my house.


You knew he had a key? And had used it before????

I re-evaluate. OP gets 55% of the culpability for unnecessarily creating an avoidable dangerous situation. (Not referring to legal liability, of course.)

The house that I grew up in is the house my parents still live in. I do not live there anymore and therefore it is not my house. My parents have never asked this of me, but I show them the respect that they deserve and knock before I enter THEIR house.

I require the same at my house. If you do not live in this house YOU KNOCK before you enter.

Even at My inlaws house I knock. My wife will just walk in and I will remind her that it is not her house and she needs to knock.

The Father In Law needs a lesson in respect.

You knew he had a key? And had used it before????


Ok let me clear it up again He has had a key for 8 years this is the first time he has used it to come in the house while we were home. He has just walked in the house a few times because a door was left unlocked. like when I am running boxes from the garage to the attic or somthing to that nature.

I hope this isn't a highjack, but I think it bears mentioning.

There was a couple "tells" as to a potential future for Eric. I don't want this one to hit you when you don't see it coming.

He is a half liberal anti pistol kind of guy. We have had it out before about guns in my house and his usual argument the baby can get into your guns, ammunition, reloading equipment ect.

>>SNIP<<

I called my wife and was telling her about it when he came back inside and said he was calling the police.

>>SNIP<<

As I thought the police never came over but I am sure this fight is not over yet.


I think the "Control" aspect is strong with this one.

First thing.... this is the kind of guy that VERY WELL may call Child Services on you and incinuate to them that your children are in danger.

He probably won't do this as long as he wants to keep some relationship with his daughter, however.

But...


And I hesitate to say this. I'm not making any appraisals of your wife-- please don't think that. But as a guy who's been through a divorce AND had his eyes raked out by lawyers (I actually ended up paying alimony from a 5 year marriage that produced no children! I had to go back to court to after she tried to continue to get alimony AFTER remarrying!)

If you and your wife EVER have trouble and divorce, you can bet your bottom dollar that this and your gun ownership WILL come up in a custody hearing. You can further bet that the FIL will be making accusations that you are an unfit parent and your children are in danger.

If it is a court battle, you may well have this collaberated by others who just want to win.

Again, I am not making judgements on anyone... but I don't want you to NOT have this somewhere tucked in the back of your mind.



-- John

Ok let me clear it up again He has had a key for 8 years this is the first time he has used it to come in the house while we were home. He has just walked in the house a few times because a door was left unlocked.

You knew he had a key? And he had been foolish enough to walk into your house unannounced before????

And also that this confirmed foolish man was coming back to your house for the bikes???


OK, you're up to 57-58% in culpability for creating an avoidably dangerous situation. (Not necessarily legal liability, of course.)

FCFC I compare your comments to this. You are 100% culpable if you are hit by a drunk driver because you know people drink and drive. And you created this situation by being on the road knowing this information.

"OK, you're up to 57-58% in culpability"

I say he remains as zero %. :cool:

I don't see where Eric F did anything wrong. I would never go into to my daughter and son-in-law's home unannounced for I know they also have a gun.
His father-in-law knew he had a gun because they had "discussed" it before.
Had this been at my house I would have reacted the same as Eric F.
Eric F's father-in-law was wrong.
So far the score is Eric F -1, Father-in-law -0

FCFC,

Nah... I still stand by his lack of culpability.

You see...

What we are talking about is what would be assumed as proper dicorum in a society. Respect, knocking before entering a home, etc. are what one would call "assumed normal behavior."

If one operates outside the bounds of "assumed normal behavior," they own the consequences of thier choices.

I KNOW what will happen if I engage in certain activites, and I should not be suprised when it happens. For this reason, I do not engage in those practices.

This is Darwinism. It goes back to the problem with society being that there are too many stupid people and not enough things to eat them.

In a civilized society, idiots are a protected species. But when one screws up, it isn't the fault of everyone around him.


-- John

"I did have my finger on the trigger!"
I'm surprised no one else picked up on this. Very bad idea! Always rememer the 4 rules!
Glad everthing turned out ok, though.

I called my wife and was telling her about it when he came back inside and said he was calling the police.

HAHAHAHAHA.

Go ahead bud, call the police. And explain how you entered someone else's house silently, without announcing your presence... and now you're upset the startled home owner drew on you.

Unless Hillary Clinton is the local sheriff, this complaint would hold no water.

Ban him from Thanksgiving and Christmas! :D

My F-I-L is a pedophile. :(

We used to live about 200 miles away and he would sometimes show up unnannounced, sometimes alone and sometimes with other family. Not so much walking into the house (trailer) but just showing up with no notice and no concern over whatever else we might be doing (we had our own business and worked 16 hr days in the summer).

When we moved two states away to MT, we got a PO box and never gave him our street address. When we still lived in town, we had given him some friends' business address for UPS packages to be delivered.

So one day out of the blue we get a call that he is at our friends' place wanting to come see us. :fire: Even though it was only 4 blocks away, we didn't let him come to our house. My wife went to see him, but she drove all around town and approached the motel from a different direction.

Now we're out in the country, but we still keep the PO box just as a place to exchange letters and xmas cards with her family. Only one trusted uncle knows where we live and he has been here twice.

My F-I-L will see what the muzzle of a gun looks like if he ever manages to show up here. :uhoh:

A lot of thefts, breakins are done by people that know the family, or know relatives of the family. How do you know the FIN isn't a molester coming back for more? (enter paranoia here). Key or no key or even an unlocked or open door, make noise, let someone know your there, the noise may scare off a criminal and avoid an armed confrontation.

I would ask him if he had a will, because the next time he "breaks in", he may need one. Even though he may have a key, which he shouldn't unless he knows the rules. He is still breaking in, as long as you have no knowledge of his intent and he has no reason to be there. I have my familys keys for several different homes, but I would never think to enter one unless there was an ,emergency, or I was watching an animal for them. The guy soonds like an ass.

I would take the key, then tell him that at any time he wants to visit he is to call a head and make sure it is ok. If he wants to have a relationship with you and the daughter then he can give you the same level of respect that he expects. If not then don't bother coming over as he is not welcome!

Eric, I don't think you did anything wrong. Next time I would Taser his A**. ;-) http://www.pimall.com/nais/taserx26.html

My sister used to do that crap at all hours. She works odd hours, and would just open the door at whatever time. This had been fine when I'd heard and seen her truck approach, but I'd warned her a dozen times not to do that. I told her "you need to knock at this house." She didn't listen.

But one day I had the TV up too loud or something, and the door just popped open. I didn't hear a truck or anything. She stepped through and I started swearing. She didn't even REALIZE she'd been covered. When the door popped open I flopped around my couch for concealment and drew. By the time she saw me I was already re-holstering and standing up.

"What were you doing?"

"Getting ready to shoot a damned intruder. Would you please knock?"

She *always* knocks/announces before entering now.

This is serious business. It was serious here, and it's serious for the OP. Warn the people who think they are familiar enough to just "walk right in" that it's a dangerous idea to do that to anyone's house but your own.

I can say for certain, that my sister didn't do it out of malice or to be annoying or sneaky. She just didn't realize the gravity of the practice.

Eric, I don't think you did anything wrong. Next time I would Taser his A**. ;-) After reading that I thought I would start a new thread What caliber or VOLTAGE for Father In Laws LOL!

And people wonder why I've never been married. Holy cow.

Bottom line, the FIL should have knocked first. Not his house. Heck, I knock at friend's houses I've known for years.

Sounds like the father in law needs a lesson in manners regarding coming into houses unannounced. I would also consider re-keying your house, and don't give them a key! If you are lucky, staring down the business end of a 1911 will wake him up, but probably not.
__________________

sound advice. i would have called him a lot more. you sounded a little light. basicly he would have known by the time im done that he is not welcome in my house without me being there

My father-in-law is gun neutral, my mother-in-law is very, very anti. They maintain an "open door" household where people just walk on in about any hour of the day or night..... gives me fits but that's THEIR home and I don't tell them how to do it.

On the flip side, when my wife moved in with me, prior to our marriage, I set some time aside to have a little sit-down the in-laws to be. I explained that I keep an armed home, and regardless of familial practices, they are to call before coming over, knock when they get here, and never do anything retarded like coming around the back yard to see if a door is open if they suspect I'm not home, etc.

It was a touchy situation, in which one had to be very firm, without being offensive and generating resentment. Fortunately, it all worked out well and my in-laws and I hold positions of mutual respect.

It sounds like it's a bit late for that in your case, but with any luck you can still explain to him the gravity of his transgressions without making it worse than it is atm. Best Luck.

I call it a draw--50% culpability for each person in creating an unnecessarily dangerous situation.You're 0 for two on Eric F's threads. Easy out!



Edit: To Eric F, considering your experience just a couple days before, I think you acted in a most admirable manner. Sad to hear FIL is such a south end of a north-bound horse.

I call it a draw--50% culpability for each person in creating an unnecessarily dangerous situation.

Eric. Did you steal this guys girlfriend? Lunch money? Kick sand in his face?

You knew he had a key? And he had been foolish enough to walk into your house unannounced before????
So because Eric knew his FIL had a key he is to assume that every unannounced intruder into his home is his FIL and just ignore it? OH! and let us not forget he'd actually been involved in a major shootout just a few days before - that would of course have nothing to do with his state of mind/readiness at all would it?

OKAYYYYY! You hear that Eric. FC has decided to assume responsibility for your safety because he's right, you're wrong and no unannounced intruder into your home will ever be anyone else but your FIL. So you don't have to be worried or concerned that any unannounced intruder is a threat. All is good. FCFC has said so.

MAN! Sucks to be YOU ERIC!

You did good. It seems the only problem is correcting your FIL. Changing your locks will send a sure signal.

Can your wife talk to him and get a point across better? If he can't play be the rules, then don't play with him.

This sounds like a matter of lack of respect. Mr FIL doesn't respect your borders, your rules, your basic ideals, or, apparently, you.

I come from a family that lives in a region where unlocked doors are the norm. Regardless, you knock at the door.
Period.
Even if you are expected.
Not knocking is proof that you do not respect the property owner.
Getting shot at is almost a side issue.

For me, the bottom line is this:

I may be my Brother's Keeper, but I expect my Father-in-Law to know better.


-- John

My parents were anti-gun, anti-violence, since long before I was born. But there is no way I would ever walk into their house unannounced. Startling people is NOT the way to see their good side.

Hey FC, do you by chance work for the 9th Judicial Circuit? Maybe the ACLU? Just wondering.......the attitude sounds similar.

Papajohn

First off, keys to our home are not handed out. Our son has one. He knows he is always welcome. He also knows I always pack. He always knocks when visiting.
Eric's FIL sounds like a solid gold jerk. Entering a home not your own without knocking is as rude as it gets. Maybe it takes looking down the muzzle to make an impression. Threatening to call the cops should make him unwelcome, but in the real world Eric has to keep peace with his wife.

The F-I-L is responsible for the "issue." The OP reacted as any resident should. Even in safer days, I would enter my parents house without knocking, but the first thing I did upon entering was hollar out a "HellOOOOOOO. Anybody home?" If there was no answer, I would walk through the house, repeating the alert.

My brother did the same.

That said, I personally believe that the reverse does not apply to parents-in-law entering the offspring's home. I believe in-laws should knock, and wait to be admitted. I know my parents never entered my home without ringing the doorbell and having me or my wife answer the door, and I know that my grandparents never entered my parents' home without knocking and being let in.

Remember Rule #4 and keep things in perspective. Respect is a two-way street.

He came back in the house and started yelling about how could we have an aggressive dog like that and that he should borrow a gun and shoot the dog. My daugther's response was to sneak out the back door and bring the dog in the laundry room. She closed the door and the dog started digging at the door trying to get thru. She told my father in law that she did not like people threatening her dog and that she figured he would be thru the door in about 1 minute.


I LIKE it!!!

FCFC, why is the OP culpable? Please explain.

Had the police been called, and if I was the responding officer, I would have listened to both sides--then chewed the FIL a new one, AND asked if the homeowner had wanted to press charges for trespass.

So, where is the "culpability"?

On the flip side, when my wife moved in with me, prior to our marriage, I set some time aside to have a little sit-down the in-laws to be. I explained that I keep an armed home, and regardless of familial practices, they are to call before coming over, knock when they get here, and never do anything retarded like coming around the back yard to see if a door is open if they suspect I'm not home, etc.

It was a touchy situation, in which one had to be very firm, without being offensive and generating resentment. Fortunately, it all worked out well and my in-laws and I hold positions of mutual respect.

Excellent thinking, excellent application, Noxx.

Plus, you didn't avoid the hard work that was necessary to accomplish your communication and security goals.

Well done, sir.

I'm such I high speed , low drag operator I even double tap my posts.

I was in a similar situation years ago. Variables Home = Apt FIL = bldg maint. 1911 = S&W model 915.

Any way Maint went to landlord, landlord called cops CSPD showed up at my door got my side and reminded me that I couldn't defend property under Colorado law. They then informed Bldg Maint that he was quite lucky to be alive , bid me good day and left.

Next day I came home from work Bldg Maint was in another apt with a GREAT BIG SIGN in the hall informing the tennant he was in the apt.

Tell FIL to knock himself out on that cop calling thing

Quote:
I call it a draw--50% culpability for each person in creating an unnecessarily dangerous situation.

Really? And how did you come to that conclusion?

I know how I came to the same conclusion... the OP should have had a shotgun!

It makes me wonder how many times he's been in your house when nobody was home.:eek:

As far as the father-in-law having a key is concerned, so what? He was not invited and did not have permission to enter the premises. I might very well have done the same thing in that situation.

I had just gotten off the phone with my wife so I knew she was gone I had just let the cat:barf: (ok don’t get me started!)

hahahahaha

DIL has control issues and your wife needs to decide where her loyalties are (did she give her dad a key but not tell you?). The minute family or friends threaten me un any way, they are no longer family / friend. Sounds to me like there is a tug-of-war from an emotional POV going on.

I don't think you bear the responsibility of any of this beyond apparently having made him feel like this is okay behavior on his part (walking in and wandering in unnaounced).
Something similar happened to me when I was in law enforcement. Three other officers and I were dispatched around 11PM to a report of "a woman screaming" coming from a house in a quiet community. We were a small department, and I knew closely the other three officers, as well as the one still remaining on patrol. Upon arrival, we could also hear a woman sobbing inside, but no immediate sounds of ongoing violence. We quickly coordinated where we'd position ourselves, and I took a position watching the east and north sides of the house (which faced south.) Two were going to the door, and one other was watching the south and west exposures.
Suddenly, I caught sight of a figure moving toward me from the west, and lit it up with my StreamLight. It was the remaining officer on patrol, who had taken it on himself to also respond. He had not notified HQ of his arrival, and I was not aware he'd be anywhere in the area.
Later, after the call was resolved (forced entry, broke up a domestic), he asked to meet me and proceeded to try to chew me out for lighting him up in the dark like that. I countered with attacking his covert response, and reminding him that he was lucky he'd only faced my flashlight.

When you heard someone in the house, you checked it out safely.

The OPs statement contradicts that:
I stepped around the corner sweeping the dining room as I rounded the corned I did have my finger on the trigger!

Furthermore, had he taken a defensive postition and shouted, "Who's there?!" - he would have heard his FIL answer. If it was a BG, he probably would have heard no reply and/or movement - in which case he could have then gone into full defensive mode. Some will argue that giving away his position by shouting might not be tactically sound - but it would have been better than exposing himself entirely as he did when he entered the dining room.

Frankly, the whole thing sounds like more like a personality/control conflict than anything else. I realize most here won't/don't agree with me - but it seems like an over-reaction considering the OP was expecting the FIL to return. Of course the FIL should have knocked, or shouted out his presence - but sweeping the dining room with your finger on the trigger?

Boy, is FCFC off the mark.

You don't enter anyone's home, even if you have a key, unannounced.

Change the locks and don't give anyone a key.

I think the point several people here are missing is that the OP expected the FIL to return, BUT DID NOT EXPECT HIM TO ENTER THE HOUSE, MUCH LESS UNANNOUNCED. Finger on trigger was probably bad practice. Shouting is a tactical decision on which people seem to be split 50/50. In this case, I see no need. Only an a$$hat or an idiot would be in the home to begin with. In this case possibly both.

LOL..... Eric, I hope you realize that after you change the locks or seize his key, you'll next have to put up blackout curtains. After he realizes he can no longer get inside, he'll be running around outside, peeping through the windows "to see what you all are doing in there."

Yep, your FIL is a putz. I've seen his kind a million times.

FCFC, Please explain.

Powderman, you are forever barred from asking that question ever again. ;)

Change the locks and give a spare key to a trusted neighbor or friend. There's no reason for your FIL to have a key to your home.

When you heard someone in the house, you checked it out safely.
Yeah great if time permits. by the time I heard the steps in the house and the time I had my FIL at the muzzle was seconds the distance was 5-6 feet past arm reach so say 9 feet max. I felt for the size of the house and the fact the doors were locked and no one else was suposed to be in the house there was no time. If I had shouted out and there was a BG in the house (which there was IMO) I would have had no time to draw if I were rushed. From my experience the day before time and distance is everything. NO ONE WAS TO BE IN THE HOUSE BUT ME! You can what if me and I can do the same thing right back. Bottom line I was not wrong by any means!

Why did he enter your house like that??? Just to be nosy or what????


LIBERALS hahaha

I think some people need to remmember that his city may not be the same as yours. Meaning he has seen someone get their head blown off, I've never seen that around here and I bet many of you have never seen that in your town. Must be a rough place to live, in some parts anyway. So keep in mind everyplace does not have the same people living in it.

When I think I hear somone in my house me and my S&W 66 go through and clear every room. Might sound wierd but I have had some one drive a pickup truck all the way around my house. I have had people get out of a car and walk toward my house in the field. I have never had anyone inside my house. But the first time you take it for granted it very well could be your last.

I personally think that it is courtious to knock before entering a house even when you think everyone is gone. Having a spare key doesn't give someone the right just to come in whenever they please.

You did the right thing and it is probably what would have happened if I were in that situation.

Smithiac

Must be a rough place to live, in some parts anyway UM heay I just hears 3 shootings go out today and a guy in hampton shot a rober and killed him yesterday south east Va has turned into a shooting gallery where here lately there are more and more good guys shooting bad guys and more bad guys shooting bad guys. This place really sucks as far as shootings go and its getting worse this year by the week. I am serious too I hear at least 3 shootings a week go out on the radio. And I only work every other day!

Your father-in-law, if you will pardon me, is a twit.

I agree with John. For all you knew he was a burglar. I'd be changing the locks in short order.

Eric, you did good. If he had come into my house and caught me off guard, I might have shot him. I have answered the door with my para 14.45 lda in hand only to find a cop standing there looking for someone else. LOL should have seen the look on his face.

I went to visit my brother many years ago, drove all night and to keep from disturbing anyone I flipped the seat back and decided to catch some sleep, in about 30 seconds he comes out the front door in his tighty whities and a great big 45.

Can't fault what Eric F did.
No need to change locks: I guarantee that the father in law will knock loudly, next time he wants to collect something ;)

...the fact the doors were locked and no one else was supposed to be in the house there was no time. If I had shouted out and there was a BG in the house (which there was IMO) I would have had no time to draw if I were rushed.

If the doors were locked and you didn't hear anyone breaking in - then the only logical conclusion would be that someone with a key (e.g., your FIL) that you were expecting to drop by (e.g., your FIL) was probably in the house. The fact that you consider him to be a bad guy is the most telling factor in this incident.

You don't like him. You don't like that your wife gave him a key. You don't like him dropping by. Those are issues you should deal with directly. Sweeping him with a gun with your finger on the trigger - when you could have guessed it was probably him in your house - doesn't strike me as the best way to address those issues.

Furthermore....If there WAS a bad guy in your house (other than your FIL) - you could have already had your weapon in hand, safety off, finger indexed, behind available cover, ready to go - BEFORE you shouted out.

I recognize I am second-guessing an incident that I was not involved in - but I think you (and I) should expect second-guessing when we post about incidents in which we are involved. I have received feed-back (including criticism) on my actions in situations I have posted about - that is why I posted in the first place. I am interested in hearing about what (if anything) I did right - what I did wrong - and what I could have/should have done differently. I'm here to learn from my fellow High Roaders. I'm not looking for cheer-leaders. I had assumed you weren't either.

Take his key away or change the locks. Your house is not secure if people are able to come and go as they please.

If the doors were locked and you didn't hear anyone breaking in - then the only logical conclusion would be that someone with a key

Are you suggesting it's not possible for someone to break in without making noise? Or that the OP would be able to hear any such noise? You are assuming way too much.

If it was a BG, he probably would have heard no reply and/or movement - in which case he could have then gone into full defensive mode.

And in which case the intruder would know his location. That's no information you want to give up without a fight.

Judging by this situation you're were 100% in the right. My house has an open door policy for family (to include those not joined by blood) at any time of day. However that doesn't mean many of my brothers and sisters haven't starred down the business end of my shotgun. letting me know who you are adn that you are comming BEFORE you arrive is far better etiquette than after-the-fact.

Aparently some of you folks just dont get it!the FIL was comming over to get bicycles and some BBQ dishes and such. All of which were in the car port in the drive way. He was not coming over to come inside. He was simply suposed to get the stuff in the drive way. I was in the kitchen doing dished with the radio on. It was not so loud as to where I would not hear the door bell or a knock on the door. Yes I was expecting him to come to the drive way. No I was not expecting him to use the key to come in the house or any one else for that matter.

The reason he had a key was incase some one locked themselves out of the house. He was a key holder. He had never before come over and just walked in a locked door. He has come over and entered unlocked doors.

The fact that you consider him to be a bad guy is the most telling factor in this incident.
That was more or less for entertainment factor. I dont like everything he does but all in all he is ok. The unwanted house entry is what makes him a bad guy.

In the end my wife now has all the house keys from her family. we are getting a new back door soon with a keyless entry so no one will need a key after tuesday. That problem is now solved.

He has had a key for 8 years this is the first time he has used it to come in the house while we were home. He has just walked in the house a few times because a door was left unlocked.

by the time I heard the steps in the house and the time I had my FIL at the muzzle was seconds the distance was 5-6 feet past arm reach so say 9 feet max. I felt for the size of the house and the fact the doors were locked and no one else was suposed to be in the house there was no time. If I had shouted out and there was a BG in the house (which there was IMO) I would have had no time to draw if I were rushed. From my experience the day before time and distance is everything. NO ONE WAS TO BE IN THE HOUSE BUT ME!

Yes I was expecting him to come to the drive way. No I was not expecting him to use the key to come in the house or any one else for that matter.



Bottom line I was not wrong by any means!


"If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

--A. Maslow--

First of all...I hadn't seen Part 1 until just now. Yikes! That was a bad situation and I'm glad the OP got out OK.

As to aiming a gun at the FIL with his finger on the trigger - undoubtedly the first incident had you on edge - but I still think you over-reacted.

The FIL was supposed to be picking up stuff from outside the house. In my family at least it would have been strange if the relative/in-law didn't come in to say hello and let me know they had picked up their stuff.

Are you suggesting it's not possible for someone to break in without making noise? Or that the OP would be able to hear any such noise? You are assuming way too much.

Sure...it's possible that it could have been a stealth break-in. But it was MUCH more likely it was the FIL with a key coming by for his stuff - just like he said he was going to do.

In either case, my suggestion was to assume it is the FIL - but shout out from behind cover with a drawn firearm until that assumption was confirmed.

From what he wrote in Part 1, apparently the OP agrees with that tactic:
I have made several decisions and next time I will find a defendable position and stay there.

Sure...it's possible that it could have bee a stealth break-in. But it was MUCH more likely it was the FIL with a key coming by for his stuff - just like he said he was going to do.

In either case, my suggestion was to assume it is the FIL - but shout out from behind cover with a drawn firearm until that assumption was confirmed.As the OP has stated, the bikes the FIL was picking up were out on the Driveway, presumably where they would be easily seen, so he had no reason to be in the house.

As the OP has stated, the bikes the FIL was picking up were out on the Driveway, presumably where they would be easily seen, so he had no reason to be in the house...

Like I said...
The FIL was supposed to be picking up stuff from outside the house. In my family at least it would have been strange if the relative/in-law didn't come in to say hello and let me know they had picked up their stuff.

To be sociable - and if for no other reason than to let me know the stuff hadn't been stolen. Certainly the FIL should have "yoo-hooed" - but if I had pulled a gun on my MIL every time she came into our house - she wouldn't be making me enchiladas even as we speak.

Erik, sounds like it's been quite a week for you. Checked your blood pressure lately? ;)

I can relate to having someone walk in the house unannounced. A couple weeks ago I was sitting in the living room watching TV and heard the front door open. It took a second or two for me to realize everyone was already home. I didn't draw, but I did have a couple of fingers on the grip. Turned out it was my oldest step-daughter's friend, for some reason she decided it would be a good idea to just walk in without knocking. She's not exactly my favorite person, not what you'd call a positive influence and has more than her share of bad judgement. I don't think she saw my gun, but I had a few words with her about just walking into the house. With a few teenagers at home it's hard to keep the doors locked during the day.

FCFC, all I can say is that your posts to both of Erik's thread are real "winners". Good grief, talk about a Monday morning quarterback.

Some posters basking in hindsight, here. It's ridiculous, the amount of second-guessing occurring in the OP's two threads.

but if I had pulled a gun on my MIL every time she came into our house - she wouldn't be making me enchiladas even as we speak.
I am glad you have an open door policy at your residence.........it is not that way at mine and as stated I have talked to him about this before.
Checked your blood pressure lately?you cant put enough mercury in a cement mixer to take my blood pressure these days!

It's ridiculous, the amount of second-guessing occurring in the OP's two threads.

As I said...
I recognize I am second-guessing an incident that I was not involved in - but I think you (and I) should expect second-guessing when we post about incidents in which we are involved. I have received feed-back (including criticism) on my actions in situations I have posted about - that is why I posted in the first place. I am interested in hearing about what (if anything) I did right - what I did wrong - and what I could have/should have done differently. I'm here to learn from my fellow High Roaders. I'm not looking for cheer-leaders.

I drew my 1911 took the safety off and listened for a second and could hear the steps were just out side the kitchen so I stepped around the corner sweeping the dining room as I rounded the corned I did have my finger on the trigger! Just as I get the target in view there is my Father in law standing there looking angry at me!

Whatever the justification and super ninja tactical tactics, you ended up with your pistol pointed at a completely innocent man - with your finger on the trigger.

You need to figure out how to change your tactics so that you don't do that. Quit blaming your father-in-law for your actions.

Your father-in-law may be the world's biggest wit.
Your father-in-law should have announced himself.
Your father-in-law may be an anti-gun liberal.
Your father-in-law may be a three headed Martian for all I know.
Your father-in-law did not point a gun at a completely innocent man, with your finger on the trigger - you did that.


If you are going to use a weapon for self defense, you need to assume responsibility for your action.

Time to cowboy up!

Mike

Eric, my only comment is to keep your finger off of the trigger. To easy to fire without intending to do so if you are startled. Otherwise, I’m with you 100%.

Our son (now 19) lives at home. If he comes in after lights-out he always calls first to let us know he is coming in the house. His friends have occasionally asked him why he always does this. His response: Because I don’t want to get shot! Actually, he knows that I would never fire unless I was absolutely, positively, 100% sure of my target even to the point of endangering myself. He only says this to get a rise from his friends. But he calls as a courtesy so we won’t get concerned at the noise. It has been a long standing rule of the house and he has never failed to abide by it.

OTOH, if he and my wife are in their beds, anything else is fair game. At that point I will not take any chances. When the only two people that I care about are accounted for there should not be anyone else in my home and they will be treated accordingly.

Your father-in-law may be the world's biggest wit.
Your father-in-law should have announced himself.
Your father-in-law may be an anti-gun liberal.
Your father-in-law may be a three headed Martian for all I know.
Your father-in-law did not point a gun at a completely innocent man, with your finger on the trigger - you did that.

Lets try this out
Your Father in Law was trespassing! if he wernt in the house he would not have a gun pointed at him. Lets try blaming the person braking the law, not the law abiding citizen minding his own business in his own home.

Lets try this out
Your Father in Law was trespassing! if he wernt in the house he would not have a gun pointed at him. Lets try blaming the person braking the law, not the law abiding citizen minding his own business in his own home.

You know, there is still another thing that is both important and hasn't come up yet in this thread. That is that we have only one side's report of an adversarial event.

It would be nice to get the FIL's account of what took place that night. That might clear up some things. I wonder what the FIL would say about some crucial points.

It's really hard to do a reasonable critique of an adversarial event with only one side of the story. Everybody knows that.

...you ended up with your pistol pointed at a completely innocent man - with your finger on the trigger...

Eric:
You should at least be able to grasp the fact that you had - by your own account - very poor trigger control in that situation. An involuntary twitch of your finger could have been the most disastrous and defining moment of your life.

You should also grasp that - again by your own account in Part 1 - you failed to follow your own tactical decision to stay put.

This is not a court case FCFC you need a real reality check here what are you some sort of lawyer?

I think I am about done with my own thread here just because of folks blaming the good guys for doing right!

very poor trigger control in that situation. What do you mean? I did not discharge the gun so I feel I had 100% trigger control
An involuntary twitch of your finger could have been the most disastrous and defining moment of your life.
Maybe but not for me as I would have been alive. I felt threatened there was an unwanted person in my house justifiable homicide.....maybe maybe not that would have to be determined by a court in that case

you failed to follow your own tactical decision to stay put.
Again I never left the kitchen I mearly "sliced the pie" to the dining room.

I think I am about done with my own thread here just because of folks blaming the good guys for doing right!
BTW, I was wondering. Was there any drinking at the BBQ? I'm curious as to whether alcohol was involved in the event. Or can we rule that out?

Amazing, simply amazing. We are supposed to be supporting the RKBA. Be it sport, hunting, or self-defense. Here is a man that knows that no authorized (I repeat; AUTHORIZED) person is in his house and takes a gun to protect himself. Suddenly, he is the bad guy.

Responses of this nature I would expect to see from the Brady Bunch.

BTW, I was wondering. Was there any drinking at the BBQ? I'm curious as to whether alcohol was involved in the event.BTW, when did you quit beating your wife?

Meh.

I think both of you are making too much of the situation.

Yeah, FIL should have knocked, called, or at least announced with a "howdy Jim" or something like that.

You, not expecting him, took good steps to ensure your safety.

You are going to have to deal with the FIL for the next several years if his health is good. You also owe it to your spouse to try and have a healthy relationship with him so she isn't always caught in the middle. :rolleyes: The most you can do is meet him halfway.

Invite him over, break out some beers and have a heart to heart with your wife present about these being the house rules that need to be followed if he is visiting. Her presence there will reinforce the unity that you all are presenting as a married couple. If he doesn't accept your rules, then demand the key back.

Was there any drinking at the BBQ? Sure there was but not by me, I knew I would be out later driving so I was not drinking. Not to mention it was in the upper 90's and I was not willing to further dehydrate my sellf with alcohol.

Dude please give it up Was I drinking........Let me ask you a question ARE YOU DRINKING?

Invite him over, break out some beers and have a heart to heart with your wife present about these being the house rules that need to be followed if he is visiting. Her presence there will reinforce the unity that you all are presenting as a married couple. If he doesn't accept your rules, then demand the key back. We have done this I her and we have talked to him I have had him over for beer boats fishing worked on his car done all the stuff I can do in a friendly manner but he refuses to comply with my/our wishes about visiting we do have the keys back now.done today. I will just have to see what happens next. Right now its cool down time for Every one maybe next weekend we can start over again but not tomorrow or this week. The man since he retired just does not get it!

I would of done the same thing Eric F.
You have my support.

Interestingly enough, many guys in the past, including McGivern, advocated:

1) Holsters that do not cover the trigger. This is so the shooter can get a completely correct grip prior to the draw. That was their way; we do it slightly different now

2) Keep the finger on the trigger in an emergency situation. Again, a different way in a less lawsuit happy society.

Just something to think about. Perhaps they knew something about gun fighting that we have lost.

In the end, Eric F identified the intruder and did not shoot. He had his finger on the trigger because he intended to shoot if required while under what he perceived as an emergency. I cannot really fault him for that. Does it violate the current safety paradigm? Sure, but that way is not the only way.

Eric, you did well in the situation!

When facing a BG, always remember that you can NOT fire a weapon without the finger on the trigger! You done good!

Responses of this nature I would expect to see from the Brady Bunch.

No kiddin, I can't believe the people that are sticking up for the FIL. Just because you have a key to somebody's house does not mean you can drop in unannounced any time you please. He suspected trespassing (and there was) and acted accordingly.

Sounds to me like FCFC is having fun trying to get Eric's Goat.

Maybe but not for me as I would have been alive. I felt threatened there was an unwanted person in my house justifiable homicide.....maybe maybe not that would have to be determined by a court in that case


You have at least one kid? Give it a few years and you might find yourself in a similar situation again. Will you feel a little funny in court saying "It was her or me!"? This is one of the most obvious, stereotypical situations someone who owns and carries a gun can find themselves in. And if you're going to pull a gun on people, you should expect to be "Monday morning quarterbacked" by the legal system. It might not happen, it may work out favorably for you, but you should be on standby for it.

What do you mean? I did not discharge the gun so I feel I had 100% trigger control.

Then you need more training. "Feeling" and "knowing" are two different animals. Knowing you have 100% trigger control means keeping your finger OFF the trigger until you are absolutely certain you want to put a hole in whatever is directly in front of your muzzle.

And then I found this in another one of your posts, Eric:
...my game gun is my carry gun I did my own trigger it is in at 2 pounds 2 ounces :what: ...Any way I carry that light because I have nothing else. As far as the trigger weight and liability goes no one has ever had a problem with a light trigger if the shooting was justified.

And you really don't think that with a 2lb, 2oz trigger...
An involuntary twitch of your finger could have been the most disastrous and defining moment of your life.

Maybe but not for me as I would have been alive. I felt threatened there was an unwanted person in my house justifiable homicide.....maybe maybe not that would have to be determined by a court in that case.

That is a scary response - and you are so wrong about it not being a bad day for you. I don't care how justified you think you might have been. Killing your FIL would have most probably been the worst day of your life - and would have changed it for the worse forever. A court (and possibly your wife) might have determined that possession of a key to your house implied permission to enter. And the prosecutor would have had a field day with that 2lb, 2oz trigger.

You unwillingness to examine your actions and attitudes has convinced me you posted this incident for the sole purpose of getting the equivalent of slaps on the back from your internet buddies. Anybody that questions your behaviour is "attacking" you - and "defending" your FIL. Nonsense!

You may find that when you're always "right" - it's hard to learn anything.

Tell him that he's lucky he wasn't shot as a home invader. Knock or ring the darn bell. DON'T just walk in, EVER!

That is a scary response - and you are so wrong about it not being a bad day for you.

You nailed it - the casual acceptance of killing a completely innocent human being leads to be to believe that the original post was bogus.

You unwillingness to examine your actions and attitudes has convinced me you posted this incident for the sole purpose of getting the equivalent of slaps on the back from your internet buddies.

I'll be honest - I wonder if the original post was an anti troll. The whole story is a poster for the Brady Campaign. What is the strongest argument against the use of handguns for self-defense in the home? That you'll shoot a relative or friend of you kids by accident.

The original post sounds like a paint-by-numbers story produced by the Brady Campaign.

Mike

I wonder if the original post was an anti troll...The whole story is a poster for the Brady Campaign.

Eric F is no "anti troll". But I think the Brady Bunch probably loves reading these kinds of posts nonetheless.

Eric F is no "anti troll".

OK, I believe you. But the original post sounds like a scrit written by the Brady Campaign.

Mike

The father-in-law, or better yet, your wife, should find an old article about the Louisiana father who heard unexpected footsteps after midnight about 10 years ago.

His daughter had come home totally unannounced and the father assumed that the sounds were from an unarmed intruder. He only saw/heard a figure in the dark (knowing that his wife was behind him in bed) and quickly shot his only daughter in the throat. Her last words reportedly were "I love you Daddy".

Your father-in-law is/was (?) not only a 1,000% ignoramus clod but also:

1) was somehow lacking basic, common manners and
2) has little respect for his in-law's privacy.
Is it safe to assume that he was sober?

Responses of this nature I would expect to see from the Brady Bunch.

Lots of new posters here. Any one of which could be a Brady Bunch mole. Well within the realm of possibility. :uhoh:

And to those who just can't resist telling me to take off the tin foil hat all I've got to say is: :D

Have you sent in your annual contribution yet? The Brady Bunch is already begging really, really hard. :scrutiny:

Forget the push button keyless entry. Anybody can remember a code. Go for fingerprint ID with key backup, and you have the only key, or the new key fobs that work like car remotes.

Get a restraining order! Hahahahaha!

Eric was almost shot a couple of days before this. Of course he was a bit jumpy. His father in law should have knocked and should not have come into the house without permission. Eric did nothing wrong. After all he pointed a gun at a person who was in his home without permission. He didn't hurt anyone he didn't even break a law. The very same people criticizing him for drawing his gun and acting in this situation criticized him for NOT acting in the other shooting. Get off his back.

rainbowbob "Feeling" and "knowing" are two different animals. Knowing you have 100% trigger control means keeping your finger OFF the trigger until you are absolutely certain you want to put a hole in whatever is directly in front of your muzzle.
How so common Lets play the word game and micro pic everything until it gets twisted into what ever your looking for it to say.

With that said I was ready to put a hole in the target until I saw the target was my FIL thats the bueaty of the situation You dont have to pull the trigger when you realize the traget is a nonthreat! I think it is you who are dangerous in by twisting and manipulating the conversation into trying to make me look like a bad guy.

Yeah and keep looking into my other posts you will also find that I had a para that I carried with a 12 oz. trigger in the past also. I have been carrying light triggers and training with them for about 15-16 years now and have never had an accidental discharge. Say what you want I have never had a problem with light triggers on a 1911 as long as the job was done right, I have seen a few that were not done right so you have to either do it yourself or have a compitent gunsmith do it and not many will. And your whole could have been the worst day of my life statement well what ever I did not shoot so no big deal. I have had very few bad days in my life and it is kept that way be mental position in life and knowing what I am doing and not pulling the trigger is covered by both.You unwillingness to examine your actions and attitudes has convinced me you posted this incident for the sole purpose of getting the equivalent of slaps on the back from your internet buddiesAbsolutly not I really dont need a slap on the back from any one to make me feel better 8 hours of sleep playing with my daughter and doing what I do work fine for me thanks for the concern.

The moral of this particular post is Identify your trage before you shoot over all.
Anybody that questions your behaviour is "attacking" you - and "defending" your FIL. Nonsense!
again atacking me well no not really but picking apart my post until you get the answer you are looking for is what you are doing.

You may find that when you're always "right" - it's hard to learn anything.
Yeah look at that one your self! Infact why dont you tell us all how you treat people unexpectedly walking into your home unanounced and with out permission Had my fatherinlaw been a bg with a knife or a gun and I did shoot him would you be saying great job or maybe and more likely would it be you bastard you just gave the anti's more ammunition be defending your home with a pistol.Please I envite you to tell us all what should I have done do that instead of just saying everything I have done is wrong........PLEASE INSTRUCT ME OH GREAT ONE!So lets go ahead and agree with you so you can move on with your life. Should you have a finger on the trigger when there is an uknown threat ok for you and you only NO! Will I have my finger on the trigger again next time.......maybe but every situation is diffrent. There you go I did it are you satisified now?
RPCVYemen
the casual acceptance of killing a completely innocent human being Have you read the whole thing? Did you see where FIL was not suposed to come into my locked home? That makes him not completely innocent.

Hey rainbowbob let me introduce one of your tactics right back to you.
rainbowbob
I like the homeowner's statement: "I wasn't going to fight with him, I might have lost...and if I lose we all lose." [paraphrased] So I get it now you feel as though no homeowner should defend themselves. After all you posted you liked this statement in a diffrent thread right? So therefore you think that if a homeowner defends themselves WE ALL LOOSE.

The very same people criticizing him for drawing his gun and acting in this situation criticized him for NOT acting in the other shooting.

For the record: I agree that the first incident would have made anybody jumpy. I did not crticize the OP for anything he did or did not do in that event.

However, I did suggest that pointing a gun at his FIL - with his finger on a 2lb, 2oz trigger - was poor form and could very easily have ended in a tragedy that would have had horrific consequences for the OP and his family.

The OP and others repeatedly insist there is nothing wrong with pointing a gun at someone you don't mean to shoot with your finger on a 2lb trigger. He remarks that shooting his FIL would have been justifed. And he believes such a shooting wouldn't have been a disastrous and defining moment that would have changed his life for the worse - forever.

I think he is wrong about that.

I also believe we owe it to each other to critique each other's actions if we see something in a post that seems glaringly dangerous. I have personally learned some valuable lessons and insights from reading such criticism of my own actions, as well as that of others.

When we experience a high-stress incident such as described in this and many other posts at THR, it is often difficult for the OP to be objective about what happened. Objective criticism can often be instructive and even life-changing for those willing to consider the feed-back they are being offered.

I expect you High Roaders to get on my back (and you have) when I post about something I did that was less than wise. And I'll do the same for you if I can.

This is a high-stakes game. Cheerleaders might make you feel better - but if all you listen to are the cheers - you might miss out on some good coaching.

He remarks that shooting his FIL would have been justifed does not equal Maybe but not for me as I would have been alive. I felt threatened there was an unwanted person in my house justifiable homicide.....maybe maybe not that would have to be determined by a court in that case
Like I sad had I shot I might be justified it would be up to the court.

The OP ran like a scared little girl when there was actual gunfire at an unfamiliar location.

Then, on his home turf, he has finger on trigger before he has a target. Then his target is his father-in-law.

If there ever was a candidate for "not allowed to own a gun," the OP is it.

Gun fight you run. Father-in-law you fight with your wife - after you point your gun, finger on trigger, at the man your wife respects more than any other man in the world.

Great judgment.

Sell your guns. You won't use them when someone is actually shooting, but you will point them, finger on trigger, at family members.

Sell your guns or grow up.

You point a gun at a threat. You put your finger on the trigger AFTER you have identified the threat.

Respond to me when you have matured. I would have beaten you to a pulp if I were your father-in-law.

Addendum: learn to spell.

The OP and others repeatedly insist there is nothing wrong with pointing a gun at someone you don't mean to shoot with your finger on a 2lb trigger.
The thing is, until he saw who it was, he didnt know it was someone he "didnt mean to shoot". It's not like he was sitting at the BBQ and decided to whip out the gun and point it at someone he could already see and identify.

Ever see LEO/military do a felony stop, or clear a building? In all the video I have ever seen,they sure dont keep thier guns holstered or even pointed at the ground or the ceiling while they are doing it.They have them leveled and ready to fire. By your definition, they are all doing it wrong, as they will end up pointing a gun at someone they may end up not needing to shoot. I suspect there is a reason they are all trained to do it the way that they do, as opposed to what you seem to be suggesting. My guess, is that it's because when you are in a situation where you dont know who is there, where they are, and what kind of threat they may be,but certainly arent expecting them to be "friendlies", that having the gun pointed at the ground when you encounter them, is liable to get you killed, as it will take extra time to level the gun, aim, and fire.

So, I think having the gun up, and ready to go, was just fine.As far as having a finger on the trigger, I can see the up and down sides to that detail, and dont know what LEO/military training is on that specific fact, so I wont say which is right or wrong (as if all situations were always black and white anyways).In most situations, the rule is dont put your finger in the trigger guard until you are about to fire, but it's a little different when you are at the range, or hunting, or carrying you gun from one place to another, VS KNOWING you are 1 second away from an encounter with an unknown intruder, who may be armed, and willing to kill you.

just my opinion though.never been in a situation where I even thought I may need to use my gun, nor am I LEO or military trained in house clearing, or dealing with potentially hostile/armed suspects.

My daughter has a key to my house. She often comes over when I am hhome, and ALWAYS knocks or CALLS to let me know she is there. She never enters my home unannounced. It is called respect.

Eric's father in law was wrong 100%, and is very fortunate he wasn't shot in the process.

Did you read the OP? How he ran away when there was gunfire?

Let me see, "I run from gunfire, but I point a gun at family members."

I wear a gun while a wash dishes, but I only respond when I hear noises in my house?

I am a first responder. I am a fire fighter. I fear nothing, except my father in law's squeaky noises.

Did you read the OP? How he ran away when there was gunfire?

Let me see, "I run from gunfire, but I point a gun at family members."

I wear a gun while a wash dishes, but I only respond when I hear noises in my house?

I am a first responder. I am a fire fighter. I fear nothing, except my father in law's squeaky noises.


Obviously you did not read my OP at all either. I never ran from a gun fight. I retreated back to my origional position until the gunfight was, what I thought, over then I ran so I never ran from a gun fight. None the less its better than getting involved with it.

Do you not respont to noises in your house? I am a first responder. I am a fire fighter. I fear nothing, except my father in law's squeaky noises.
As far as that goes
fire can be a dangerous thing I have equipment to help me protect myself.
Intruders in my house can be a dangerous thing I have equipment to protect myself.see how that works?
both do not go with out fear. I have been in many fires and have been scared a few times. I did not know it was my father in law entering my house unexpectedly there fore he was treated as an unexpected intruder. Had he called out called the house phone first knocked or other wise let me know it was him I would have has a fit but not drawn my gun.

Respond to me when you have matured. follow yor own advice
I would have beaten you to a pulp if I were your father-in-law.
like wise good judgement beat the guy up that has a gun pointed at you....right!you fight with your wife I have never fought with my wife we tend to agree most of the time and once again we have agreed on how to handle this situationSell your guns. You won't use them when someone is actually shooting um I did use my gun again see below

Addendum: learn to spelllearn to read before you put your foot in your mouth
bottom line 3 guys on here think I did the wrong thing..........that carries about zero weight with me fifteen or so folks think I did the right thing that carries a little weight.........I did what I thought was right the outcome is good no one got hurt I made my point that carries all the weight in the world with me. Loop folks like you should have never been introduced to the internet. like rainbowbob please instead of flapping the keyboard tell us what you would have done.

Okay, there seem to be a lot of different opinions about how much fault goes in which direction.
If it's come down to taunting
Did you read the OP? How he ran away when there was gunfire?

Let me see, "I run from gunfire, but I point a gun at family members."

I wear a gun while a wash dishes, but I only respond when I hear noises in my house?

I am a first responder. I am a fire fighter. I fear nothing, except my father in law's squeaky noises.

and ignoring other people's replies to your post
bottom line 3 guys on here think I did the wrong thing..........that carries about zero weight with me

Then there's really not much DISCUSSION going on. Step back. Deep breath. I don't see much point in continued bickering.

E F. I would be interested in hearing your FIL's response and how he behaves later.

Everybody spread love. ;)

Wow, I'm amazed at how this thread has devolved.

I'm particularly "impressed" by loop's comments:

The OP ran like a scared little girl when there was actual gunfire at an unfamiliar location.

Then, on his home turf, he has finger on trigger before he has a target. Then his target is his father-in-law.

If there ever was a candidate for "not allowed to own a gun," the OP is it.

Gun fight you run. Father-in-law you fight with your wife - after you point your gun, finger on trigger, at the man your wife respects more than any other man in the world.

Great judgment.

Sell your guns. You won't use them when someone is actually shooting, but you will point them, finger on trigger, at family members.

Sell your guns or grow up.

You point a gun at a threat. You put your finger on the trigger AFTER you have identified the threat.

Respond to me when you have matured. I would have beaten you to a pulp if I were your father-in-law.

Addendum: learn to spell.

What is your problem?

****************

Anyway, I don't know why this has become such a pissing match. It all seems pretty simple to me - Op hears a noise in his house and suspects that SOMEONE is in the house. Knowing the house was locked and the whereabouts of his immediate family (the only people that should be entering the premises) he grabs his gun to check the noise turns the corner and there's the intruder, which happens to be his FIL. OP does NOT shoot him but lowers the weapon, makes it safe, and "holsters" it in his waistband.

The FIL was expected to come to the house and pick up stuff OUTSIDE but did not have permission to enter the house. Turns out the FIL had let himself in the house with the spare key he had been given. However, being given a key to hold for emergencies like someone getting locked out does not equate to permission to use the key to enter the locked residence any time he feels like it.

The FIL should never have entered the house without permission. Period. Everything else that occurred stemmed from that action. My father has a key to my house and I have one to his BUT we don't let ourselves in without an invitation and even when we are invited we announce ourselves upon entry. If I let myself into his home without invitation and unannounced I would not be at all surprised to find dear old Dad pointing a gun at me AND I'm sure I'd get a good scolding for almost getting myself shot.

On more than one occasion I have heard noises in my house and armed myself before going to check the source, the only difference between me doing that and what the OP did is that I don't clear with my finger on the trigger but that is how I have been trained. If he does it some other way that is up to him.

The ugliness of some responses is unwarranted and inappropriate. Back off people. Critique, but be courteous.

A lot of guys here seem to be all ate up with following the 4 rules.

Good rules to follow at the range, or in any non-threatening environment.

But if you're in a life threatening situation blindly following rules 2 and 3 could get you killed.

I for one am no Jerry Miculek. I didn't have lightening reflexes when I was younger and they've slowed considerably now that I'm older. I'm not going to wait to point my gun until I've identified the target. It's gonna be up and ready. I for one am not going to wait to put my finger on the trigger until I'm ready to shoot.

Seconds count. The OP didn't do anything wrong in my opinion. To those who think he did - you are of course free to handle a similar situation any way you want. Here's hoping when you find your self in one it isn't the real deal with a real bad guy who has a real gun and he's intending to kill you with it because you slower guys may not have time to follow rules 2 and 3.

I'll echo what WC145 said.


But I wanted to add this:


Guys, while everyone is commenting on the trigger control, we are missing the primary issue: The FIL coming in the house and the response.

This is a fact that you may not like, but it is what it is. Trigger control? Well, it his house, he can put his finger whereever he wants. It may not be the safest way of doing things, and accidents very well could happen. Hell, he could pick his nose with the barrel of a handgun if he wanted to do so.

This, in NO way, eclipses the fact that he had an intruder-- even if it was his FIL who is a twit. He responded. This situation would not have even existed if the FIL had more than 2 neurons bouncing an electron between them for a brain.


I suppose that it would somehow be my fault if you entered my house uninvited and I forgot to put away my shoes causing you to fall and break your leg.


When we are placing fault, its a good idea to start at the beginning.



-- John

Well put, JWarren.

Loop, why would he get involved in a gun fight that he had nothing to do with. A CCW is for self defence not to go out and defend a posible drug dealer or murderer. you are just trying to get his goat and is not the way of the Highraod. This can be said for many of you and should knock it off. When he pulled his gun in his own house, that is his God given right. I don't care if he took a crap in his hand and was going to through it at the intruder, its his house and if he hears a squeak in the floor, he can pull out his bazzoka as far as the law is concerned.

Who cares if the gun has a -300 pound trigger pull, Who cares if the gun pulls its own trigger when pointed. He felt theatened and protected his self and home.

Many of you are making yourselfs out to look not so bright.

By the way I am as left wing as they come and I say Eric F did nothing wrong.

This thread has degenerated and gotten into the 'round and 'round and'round chase through the boonies; too wretched to deal with on a Sunday. Go watch TV or something...

Art

Some of you will be getting PMs for uncivil behavior and name-calling.

Some won't be around THR tomorrow.

It might do everyone a lot of good to reread the Forum Rules occasionally and always keep in mind that you're supposed to attack the argument and not the individual.