[Geno]

I have long been interested in buying a nice Stevens 311 side-by-side shotgun. Each time that I pass by a firearms store, if I have time, I will stop and browse. This past week, as I drove back from a medical appointment, I stopped to see what Stevens 311 shotguns a local FFL might have in stock.

As I scanned the rack of side-by-side shotguns, the middle most shotguns jump out at my eyes…3 Stevens 311 shotguns!!! As fast as the excitement sets-in, it flees. Someone has cut down the barrels on the one I wanted to look at. Out of curiosity, I ask to review the cut-down Stevens, and it just looks sickening! Someone has cut the barrels to 18”, frankly did a horrid job at that. The chop-job would have been appalling enough but the FFL’s next words literally drove me right out of the store:

If you don’t like it at 18”, we can cut it to whatever’ length you want.

1) Why do some people feel compelled to destroy beautiful old classics?

2) What is the worst destruction you have seen to an oldie-but-good shotgun?

Thanks,

Doc2005

[Dave McCracken]

Back when I instructed for the State, one rookie brought his house gun to show it off and brag.

It was a mid grade LC Smith with pretty wood and nice engraving. He had bobbed the barrels to about 18".

He was proud of it until I mentioned he had taken a shotgun worth a couple thousand dollars and turned it into one worth a couple hundred.

He proved to be a dunce and didn't last....

[Geno]

Dave:

This shotgun's steel and wood were nearly flawless. The finish was not so much as scratched. The action was as tight as a drum. Then, to see the ends of the barrel hacked, chopped...oh man!

Doc2005

[Okiecruffler]

Since CAS has become so popular you see alot of pruned back older doubles. Makes me tear up everytime I see one.

[Dave McCracken]

Darn, Doc. That bites big time. Even a beater deserves better.

[GNLaFrance]

1) Why do some people feel compelled to destroy beautiful old classics?

Rule #1: People are stupid.

Rule #2: You can't do anything about Rule #1.

2) What is the worst destruction you have seen to an oldie-but-good shotgun?

Thereby hangs a tale. Few years ago I had a Stevens 311 that was solid and functional but needed refinishing and reassembly of the action (I had moronically disassembled it and couldn't figure out how to get it back together). I was hanging out on CAS City http://www.cascity.com/index2.shtml and asked about gunsmiths in Maryland. A fellow in Louisiana said he'd do it, was a disabled vet like me, etc. Sent him the shotgun to have the barrels blued, new bead sights installed, the receiver color-case-hardened and the action reassembled. He would also relieve the cones and polish the chambers.

When the shotgun came back the thin, smooth, brown patina of the barrels was untouched. The original bead sights were still there, no sign of the new ones I had sent. The receiver had apparently been scuffed up a bit with fine sandpaper, no case-hardening done. The left hammer wouldn't stay cocked. The forcing cones looked like they'd been relieved with a 60-grit carborundum stone and the barrels were lined with fine powdered rust.

I complained to him and got nothing but a whining denial of wrongdoing. Since this guy was a regular poster on CAS City and sold a line of bullets and other reloading stuff, I went public with the facts. Of course a few of the others objected to this but I knew that nothing would be changed without speaking out. Eventually four other posters went public and two others wrote me privately about how this butcher had done similar things to their guns. One had sent him a pair of nickeled Uberti SAAs and he had totally screwed up the forcing cones in the barrels, dug a divot out of one top strap with a file and generally ruined both guns. Similar horror stories were brought out.

Eventually, after trying to dodge me by pretending to be his business partner and claiming he was seriously ill, he sent me most of the money I had wasted on him (still whining) and IIRC paid back one or two of the others as well. Since then he hasn't posted on CAS City, at least under his old name.

Caveat emptor. Check out people who claim to be gunsmiths, get references, get guarantees, find out what organizations can help you in case of trouble before you send your guns and money.

[Wheeler44]

Eight of the ten last '97 Winchesters that I have seen have fallen to "cowboy action" action.
Apparently that involves taking a shotgun that has lasted since the times of cowboys and doing a poor job of bobbing the barrel.
Somehow the above mentioned activity make the 21st century man more like a 19th century cowboy.

[Geno]

Well, thank godness there are some very smart people left in the world. I am wheelin'-'n'-dealin' on a Stevens 311 as I type. The person wants to get into CAS but looking for trades for a short-barreled shotgun. Thank-goodness they don't all fall to the grinder.

Doc2005

[snowtigger]

I have a Stevens Model 345, 20 ga receiver that came to me with 9" barrels. The fellow who gave it to me took it away from a couple of punks. After destroying the now illegal barrels, I set about looking for a new set, or a parts gun.
That was 4 years ago. Apparently there were not many 345's,
. I've seen only one on Gunbroker since then. It went too high for my blood.


Oops, I just swung over to Gunbroker, and what did I find....A 20 ga Stevens345... We'll see...

[romeo212000]

An AYA Matador that had been cut down the 16" for CAS. And it was a piss poor job too. I would have bought the thing had it not been for that.

[Bud Tugly]

I can see someone cutting down a Maverick or H&R/NEF for HD use. At least they're cheap and there are lots of new ones available.

Sacrilege to cut down and old classic, though. I guess some folks must think of them as old junkers and never bother to check on their real value before getting out the hacksaw.

[Geno]

Well, I finally closed a deal on a Stevens 311 12 guage today. Our fellow THR member, "Killer", had one listed here for $300.00, which given the shotgun's condition, I felt was a fair price. We met-up today to trade cash for shotgun, and then I spent the afternoon riding MX with my daughter, and dreaming about my new shotgun.

Link to post: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=346877&highlight=311

The pictures don't do her justice. Kudos to "killer" for leaving her as she arrived from the factory. The previous owner had removed the buttstock's plastic plate, but that should be easy enough to locate/replace. Any leads from anyone here would be greatly appreciated as to where to locate replacement parts.

Next up on my shotgun list likely will be a side-by-side shotgun in 20 gauge. I'm open to any suggestions as to the best makes and models. Although, I will say I do not like choke tubes. I really like the classic old fixed chokes. I also prefer USA-made. :)

At present, I don't have a ton of shotguns, more rifles and pistols. I have the following shotguns:

1) Remington 870 Wingmaster with lightweight barrel

2) Remington 870 Express 20 gauge for my daughter

3) Remington 870 Tactical 12 gauge for HD

4) Stevens 311 12 gauge

Since I have most of the rifles and pistols that I desire (within reason), it's now time to turn my attention to shotguns. Mostly I use a shotgun for pheasant hunting only. When I hunt rabbit or squirrel, I use a .22LR. Just more challenge.

Oh..Lordy...just remembered...my aunt's O/U .22LR/.410 shotgun that I used to use to hunt rabbit when I was about 10 years old. Oh I'd love to find one of those...an oldie but goodie! As you can see, my tastes are pretty simple. I think it was a Stevens or a Savage. Can’t recall. I haven’t see it in 35 years, literally.

In closing, please feel free to educate me as to what I should look for in future side-by-side or over-under shotguns. Thanks for your past and future input, and mostly thanks for being so patient. I admit to knowing very little about shotguns. But, I am willing to learn, I more than willing to do my part in keeping some of the classics from going under the grinder! :)

Thanks,

Doc2005

[Gunnerpalace]

If you don’t like it at 18”, we can cut it to whatever’ length you want.

Isn't that NFA territory?

[riverdog]

I have a few shotguns too. Four 870's, a Browning Citori, BT-99, an Ithaca 37 in 20ga and recently I bought my first SxS. I was looking at a few SxS guns and it came down a nice 20 ga or the 311. The 311 was intact with 30" barrels (F/M) and was the obvious choice for someone looking to chop a gun for cowboy games -- so I took it out of circulation. That 20 ga was very nice though so I may need to pay them another visit.

[Grey54956]

CAS is a plague upon the classic shotgun. There are plenty of modern repros out there, but somehow, some darn fool always wants to take a fine double and whack the barrel short.

Seriously, CAS can argue that they are bringing new blood to the shooting world, but a bunch of costume monkeys with guns and hacksaws may not be what we need.

[Browning]

I don't know much about side by sides (only owned one and it was a modern coach gun), but couldn't a Cowboy Action guy just buy another (shorter) barrel if they wanted it shorter and just leave the original as is? Wouldn't that be an obvious answer? Or are there not that many spare barrels in circulation?

[joop]

Every time I see a chopped up Mosin Nagant, I die a little inside.

A new Stevens 200 with a $100 scope would set you back only a little bit more than a souped up nugget.

[machinisttx]

I just traded dad for his 16 gauge Stevens 311. I expect to dove hunt with it in a couple of months.

I haven't been able to figure out the people who insist on taking perfectly functional classic guns and then fixing them until they're broke. One thing that really steams me is seeing older guns with hacksawed barrels marked "full".

[Okiecruffler]

I don't think the CAS guys are hacking as much as they used to. Now there are alot more choices in cheap imports than there were when the whole CAS thing reared up. What I don't think I understand is are they reenacting history, or just role-playing movie reality? Not that either is a bad thing, but one of my loves is old photographs. If you look at the shotguns from that time period, very few were cut down.

[Geno]

Gunnerpalace:

Yes, Sir, it is! As I said, that comment literally drove me from the FFL's store! There is no way on earth I would touch an illegal firearm. I don't know what the guy was thinking, or if he just wasn't thinking. Regardless, I'll be avoiding that gunshop from now on. There are lot's of other legal sources, including right here at THR. :)

Doc2005

[paintballdude902]

ive been thinking about making an sbs or aow ina few months and i wanna get a 20ga and saw the barrels off to the handguards but heck i would never ever do it to a nice one i wanna use a 200 dollar junk special.

my worst i saw a model 94 winchester rifle with the long octagon barrel made in 1909 if i remember correctly ...... some bubba said he wanted a carbine so hacked it to 18inches (idk y he didnt do 20 or 16.5) and then polish off the case hardening and blue and buffed teh steal with fine wet/dry sand paper like a 600 or so to get a brushed steel look

it about made my dad cry that was the first deer rifle he ever owned he loved that gun and has been looking for one for around the last 5 years

[Matt-J2]

Just think, any time someone does a hack job on a classic, the value of the un-bubbad one in your closet goes up.

Of course, if you're like me and don't own one but wish you could, it does make it a mite harder.

[Dave McCracken]

Enjoy your 311, Doc. When you get a 20 gauge, it can be a 311 also. The Stevens 311 I rescued in the thread, "Mom, dealer in illegal arms", was a sweetie.

[Geno]

Dave:

Thanks, I plan to do just that. I was thinking the same re: a side-by-sde 20 gauge. The 311 is a good shotgun. I'll have to take this 12 gauge to the range and check the paterning. :)

Here's my thinking for rounding out my (and my daughter's) 10 shotguns. Note that thos ein black letter are what we have, and those in blue are what I would propose to buy. The "combo" long guns would be in a separate category. They are neither fish nor foul. :) Oh Lordy I do love my single-shots too...rifle and shotgun and pistol. :)

1) Remington 870 Wingmaster 12 gauge with lightweight barrel

2) Remington 870 Wingmaster 20 gauge with lightweight barrel

3) Remington 870 Express 12 gauge

4) Remington 870 Express 20 gauge

5) Remington 870 Tactical 12 gauge for HD

6) Remington 870 Tactical 20 gauge for HD

7) Stevens 311 12 gauge

8) Stevens 311 20 gauge

9) SKB Savage 12GA O/U

10) SKB Savage 20GA O/U

Geno

[Dave McCracken]

Submitting a list heavy with 870, 311 and SKB O/Us to me, Geno, is a gimme. Not a shotgun there I don't like.

Except, the SKBs Ithaca imported like Pop's last shotgun were fine. I might go for these over the Savages,which I have NO experience with.....

[Cougfan2]

Back in the 70's when toll painting was a fad I saw a woman at a trap shoot with a Remington 1100 trapgun that had been toll painted completly; wood, barrel, action, everything. I just stood there dumbfounded, although she probably thought it was the coolest thing in the world. Oh well, different strokes. :eek:

[Hawk]

I haven't seen that many older doubles chopped up but most seem to have been given over to someone with a 40 horsepower buffer and a bluing tank.

My L.C. Smith had the sideplates lightly jeweled when I got it. It actually seemed to be less of a butchering than a buff / blue as it's very light and the markings are intact. One day, Turnbull will make it right. After I win the lottery.

[Cougfan2]

My cousin took my Uncle's nice old pump action Winchester .22 that had a nice "browning" and sanded it down to the bare metal because he thought it looked cooler that way. My head almost exploded. :banghead:

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Every Cowboy Action shooter is not a total moron. I shot a 30" barreled Stevens 5100. Plastic stock and forearm on a normal 311. I LIKE being the only guy with a 30" barreled shotgun. If I miss I just poke the targets with the ends of the barrels, LOL
the Stevens is falling out of favor due to the center locking lug, harder to load two at a time.
My pard Iron Ed also shoots a long barreled Stevens, I think 28" in 20 ga.
When I need short I pull the Win 97 replica.
What I really want is a Model 1900 Remington, my Dad's blew the right barrel a while back. Anybody got spare barrels?
CF

[Don Gwinn]

Doc, my dad used to get a lot of guys who wanted to trade their shortened barrels even up for longer ones. This was early/mid 1990's, and there'd just been a craze for short barrels (on new guns) followed by a trend for long ones. The long ones--I think 26" was the hotness at that time--were worth considerably more around here than the short stuff.

He spent significant time and effort explaining to some people how they were NOT the same (else why would you be here trying to get me to trade?) and, while he could have taken his long barrel and made a short one like theirs, he could NOT take their short barrel and make a long one like his. Duh.

[MMCSRET]

I witnessed the transition of a really butchered 311 into an absolutely wonderful, fabulous, side x side 444 Marlin, regulated perfectly to 150 yards. I know, this is a scatter gun thread, it was a scattered gun to start with!!!!!!!!!!!

[poor_richard]

Doc2005,

Oh..Lordy...just remembered...my aunt's O/U .22LR/.410 shotgun that I used to use to hunt rabbit when I was about 10 years old. Oh I'd love to find one of those...an oldie but goodie! As you can see, my tastes are pretty simple. I think it was a Stevens or a Savage. Can’t recall. I haven’t see it in 35 years, literally.I recommend that you call Rylee's Ace Hardware in Grand Rapids, and inquire if they have anything on your list. They just got an old collection in a week or two ago, and I know it contained two or three O/U rifle/SG combos, as well as a Stevens 311.

[Geno]

Thanks poor_richard! Greatly appreciated.

[poor_richard]

Don't mention it. Hope they have what your looking for.

[Smokin Gator]

Okiecruffler. Cowboy shooters are doing both. The guys that started cowboy action shooting were more interested in playing cowboy like the cowboy heroes in the movies and on TV that they watched growing up. Or you can try to be more authentic to the 1800's cowboy. Either is allowed and anything in between. Smokin Gator

[riverdog]

The Stevens 311 I found 11 days ago came home today and after a very short cleaning, I can say the gun is in excellent condition, meaning that not only are the chokes still intact, but the finish is near perfect and the wood has no apparent dings. Next time I shoot Trap I'm going to give it a try.

[Geno]

Very cool! Congratulations on the find. Let us know how she works.

[riverdog]

Playing with snap-caps yesterday. When the gun is opened the safety is automatically engaged, so I need to practice disengaging the safety. Trap is a good way to practice.

[ZeSpectre]

Since CAS has become so popular you see alot of pruned back older doubles.

Yeah, I shoot an old/cheap but very pretty Aramberri Y Sons SxS with full length barrels. I've long since lost count of the number of folks who've told me that cutting the barrels shorter would make the gun a lot "faster".

Well I'm NEVER going to be the fastest shooter in the game and my "too long" barrels have never missed yet so I think I'll just go against the flow and leave the boomstick the way I got it <grin>.

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

:what: I have my grandfather's old guns in the back of the safe, among them is a Stevens 311 16 gauge. I figured they were just old junk and left them there because I would feel bad if something happened to my inheritence. I had no idea they were worth anything.

[tinygnat219]

Zespectre,

Take it from me, keep the barrels longer. There's not much one can do outside CAS with a Coach gun. Patterns are too wide for serious bird hunting, and most trap ranges have a minimum barrel length greater than 18-20 inches. That Aramberri would serve well in either role, and tends to match the period much more than those silly 1897 pump shotguns that are used.

[foghornl]

I HAD*** a Shooting Budd many years back that asked me about shortening an old SxS. I recommended he NOT do that; if he wanted more open patterns, have a smith grind/machine/polish down the choke constrictions a bit. Told him I would be over in about an hour to take a look at his shotgun.

Got over to his house...he was in the garage, and had already ruined "Pops" shotgun. {he inherited his grandfather's Savage 311} ...he was removing the gun from the unpadded vise.

And he probably is still wondering why I picked up the chopped off barrel portions and chased him all around his back yard and down the street....

***Note use of past tense. That old 311 had absolutely the nicest wood I have ever seen on a Savage. He cut the barrels crooked, and had a dent in the remaing barrels where he had waaaaaayy over-clamped the vise. Have not spoken to him in over 20 years.

Had I been able to catch him, we would probably both still be crying...him from the beatdown, me in my jail cell.

[brandonc]

1) Why do some people feel compelled to destroy beautiful old classics?


To use them and not just look at them.

[Regolith]

To use them and not just look at them.

They can be "used" in their present state. And if you want to butcher something, do it to a NEW gun. They ain't making the old classics anymore, and every single one of them that's butchered takes another one out of the collector's market, and if it was done bad enough it takes them out of service, as well.

[Mossberg535]

I dont have a shotgun story, but one that made me sick was seeing some nitwit who took a beauty of an old potbelly stove and drilled holes thru it and made a freaking lamp out of it.

[Wheeler44]

To use them and not just look at them. Ha ha ha ha , great first post kid.

[publiuss]

That is sad, and the shop owner is an idiot. "If you don't like the length, we can cut it to whatever you want." Great, he can cut it down even farther than the 18.5 legal length and can be cell-mates w/whoever he sells it to.

[Phil DeGraves]

Eight of the ten last '97 Winchesters that I have seen have fallen to "cowboy action" action.
Apparently that involves taking a shotgun that has lasted since the times of cowboys and doing a poor job of bobbing the barrel.


Before you judge these people too harshly, realize that most of the shotguns that they cut down had been "customized" to some degree long ago. Very few CAS shooters are that dumb that they get original guns to cut down. Now they may have bought one that some old timer put a Cutts Compensator on and cut that down, but the damage had already been done before it got to them. Besides, the ones that are not in original condition were cheaper to buy.

[PJR]

Very few CAS shooters are that dumb that they get original guns to cut down.
Perhaps. But I recall attending a gunshow where a dealer was selling shotguns that had been used for CAS. He had a Fox Sterlingworth, Parker Trojan among other guns ALL with their barrels bobbed off.

I guess the "look cool factor" overwhelmed the good sense of their previous owners because the value of these guns was ruined.

This is a picture posted on this forum some time ago. It is a WS Scott 10 gauge hammer gun.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/2xmx8/GunPictures004.jpg

[Phil DeGraves]

Perhaps. But I recall attending a gunshow where a dealer was selling shotguns that had been used for CAS. There was a Fox Sterlingworth, Parker Trojan. among other guns ALL with their barrels bobbed off.

Well, Cowboy shooters look for guns that have been shortened. As I said, most of the "Classic" guns that they have that have been cut down were cut down BEFORE they got them. They got them BECAUSE they were cut down.

[PJR]

Well, Cowboy shooters look for guns that have been shortened. As I said, most of the "Classic" guns that they have that have been cut down were cut down BEFORE they got them. They got them BECAUSE they were cut down.
And if they can't find them out comes the hack saw. I've been around through the development of SASS and the incidence of butchered doubles has increased right along with the popularly of the activity.

Who else is taking double shotguns and cutting them down with such regularity?

[DaleCooper51]

Who else is taking double shotguns and cutting them down with such regularity?

Godfather Movie Lupara fans?

[Deer Hunter]

While I hate to see such acts of violence manifest themselves in the vice and hacksaw owners of America, I will say that it is their choice to do so and I will not try to stop anyone from doing a legal hackjob.

It's sad, but worse has happened.

[mbt2001]

A VINTAGE, perfect condition, seldom fired, colt 1903 (handgun but still) with about 95+% bluing in just perfect condition that my uncle inhereted from my Grandfather...

The idiot gave it to his daughter "for protection". Saw it about 1 year later, it was pitted, rusted some, scratched. She had been carrying it at the bottom of her purse and kept it in the bathroom some, because that it where she "felt safe"...

The good news, is that I secretly replaced the gun with another... Sounds stupid, but I didn't want my grandfathers gun being destroyed by idiots, so I bought another, went for a visit and am now trying to restore the damage done... Makes me cry.

Similar story exists with his double 20 (old winchester from the 50's) and his Belgian made Browning Auto 5.... :( I don't know much about them, because they are in the hands of noobs that I pretty much don't have a good relationship with... I wonder if they suspect my switcharoo on the 1903???

[JeepGeek]

sounds like an FFL trying hard to go out of business, and take up residence in the Federal pen...

[zoom6zoom]

If you don’t like it at 18”, we can cut it to whatever’ length you want.
"Sure - how about you cut it at 30" for me. That's the length I want."