[griz]

Some people seem to like the new internal locks various manufacturers are putting on self defense guns and some don’t. To me the most valid criticism is that the lock might either engage itself, or become stuck in the locked position. This would render the gun an expensive paperweight at best, and at worst get you killed.

So I’m not asking for a debate on the merits of the locks. Whether you like them or not, does anybody know of one of these locks that has failed in such a way that the gun was inoperable? Loosing the key doesn’t count.

[J Miller]

griz,

I suspect this thread will end up like all the rest of the gun lock threads I have read. A flame war between the lock lovers and lock haters.

More than likely nobody will come forward with any stories about failures. These locks haven't really been out there that long, so the number of them in use is still low.

Personally I have no story to tell about these locks, and I never will.

But like griz, I'm curious about this subject too.

[Nobody]

Sorry, I have no stories to tell on this particular subject... :p

A little humor, very little....:neener:

[Standing Wolf]

When I want to secure a gun, I put it in the gun safe or one of my bank boxes. I've never owned a gun with an internal lock, nor will I ever.

[10-Ring]

I have 3 USPs w/ the lock & one w/o. Really, all I've done is unlock them & put away the key. The lock has never been an issue.

[CWL]

I'd have to say that losing the keys does count.

I haven't heard of any gun owners who are positive about the locks. Only antis and the misinformed.

[4v50 Gary]

Would love to hear lock stories - good or bad.

[KarlG]

A friend I shoot with and hang out with a lot has a Springfield 1911 with the little lock on the backstrap. He has just unlocked it and left it unlocked without a problem for about two years.

Hey, it may not be interesting, but it is a story.

My opinion is that no matter how remote the chance, increasing the complexity of a device increases the potential for failure. If I had a choice between two (almost) identical guns with the only difference being the added lock, I would take the one without the lock.

[Gerald McDonald]

Had a Taurus revolver with the lock, in the two years I had it it never locked itself. I dont really care whether they have locks or not, the taurus lock was not noticeable when unlocked.
Gerald

[PCRCCW]

Ive got a couple of examples for ya....Im neither Pro nor Against locks soley.....If you want one...hey thats your business.

Taurus Raging Bull....454 Casull...would lock itself about every 5th cylinder of "EVIL RELOADS" :evil: and finally got a hefty dose of lock tite. No more problems.......

Same scenario on a Taurus 605...as it was a newer gun it did not do it on a regular basis...but any self locking gun gets lock tited..very quickly.

Shoot well...

[tiberius]

The lock-tite is probably a good idea.

I have a Taurus 85Ti with their internal lock on teh hammer. It gets carried and shot and the lock has never moved. It may not be a "Raging Bull", but this light gun does have a sharp recoil and it has perfomred perfectly.

In theory, I hate the internal locks, but in practice I don't even know its there.

[C.R.Sam]

I wonder how well they do downside up or sideways.

Not all that silly...
Think defending from under a car, bed, through vent hole at bottom of wall etc.

Sam

[Henry Bowman]

No stories to tell, but . . .

As a patent attorney, I have had occasion to research the mechanics and construction of many dozens of internal lock designs that are out there and not out there. By "not out there" I mean that there are dozens of designs that have never been comercially produced and probably never will. The designs used by the reputable gun manufacturers are no more likely to fail than any other mechanism of the gun and are much simpler in design and construction than most trigger mechanisms. If you trust the mechanical design of a thumb safety, a trigger safety, a grip safety, a "safe action," a "light double action," or any other internal mechanism chosen by a high quality gun manufacturer, you have no reason not to trust the reliability of an internal lock. If you have a socio-political opinion, fine. But don't make other excuses that are as silly as "I don't wear seat belts because I'd rather be thrown clear of the car" or " those air bags could just blow up and make me wreck my car."

[tiberius]

Uhm, That is no doubt true but, if my thumb safety accidentally actuates, I don’t need a key to deactivate it…….big difference.

[Andrew Rothman]

I read this just the other day:


http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2000/30Jul00.html

24 Mar 00

This just in from a friend who is a range officer with a large, metro PD. Did you see any of this in the media?

"I had a chance to see one of those locking magazines that Glock has produced. Our idiot governor has forced the State Park Police to adopt them (the governor's own bodyguard detail is apparently exempt; what a surprise!).

During the televised news conference where the locking magazine was first shown to the public, no one, not the governor nor any of the police officials present, including the chief, could figure out how to unlock the damn thing and render a gun which was capable of firing. This was all despite the fact that during the various attempts the gun was pointed at everyone on the room several times as well as in every other conceivable unsafe direction.

None of them were being shot at. There was plenty of light to see what they were doing, and they had presumably rehearsed the act many times in preparation for the press event. Still, none of them could get the pistol to where it could be fired.

Amazingly, instead of expressing concern for the safety of his troopers, the governor and his assembled gallery of yes-men all commented on how well the device obviously works!

We tested the device here at the PD range last night. After much practice, it took the best of us a minimum of ten seconds to get our Glocks unlocked and ready to fire, and that was with enough light to see well enough to operate the lock. In the dark, it took much longer, and many of us were unable to make it work at all.

In addition, we found that the magazine can easily be bumped and inadvertently locked without the officer being aware of it.

Perhaps it is just me, but the problem of safety locks is like the dilemma of Descartes and the mind/body issue. No matter where you say the intersection of the mind and body is, you still have to explain how they can interact. No matter how deep in the mechanism you put the safety lock, if the gun can be made to fire, it can be made to fire at the wrong time. But maybe it is just me who doesn't get it."


An additional concern is that officers, instead of securing their guns within a locked container, will simply flip a switch on the magazine and then leave them lying around.

Lesson: Public officials don't care about the safety of their officers any more than they care about the safety of citizens. As always, you're on your own!

/John


Also:


http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2001/5July01.html

5 July 01

Pistol "safety?"

I just had my hands on a Taurus PT145. It's a new, 10+1, compact, 45ACP pistol, designed for concealed carry. It's a nice size, reminiscent of a G36, only fatter.

What concerns me is its key-locked, conditional sterilization capability and its "loaded chamber indicator." S&W recently announced that all their new revolvers will have a similar key-locked capability. Springfield Armory advertises a like gadget now installed on their 1911 clones. From now on, all these guns will apparently not be available any other way.

I've been involved in several civil cases recently where plaintiff's attorneys have made an issue of the fact that the pistol in question did not have a "loaded chamber indicator." I'm assuming manufacturers are now rushing to add this device to their existing guns as a response. In all the cases in which I've been involved, we have been able to conclusively demonstrate that a "loaded chamber indicator" would not have affected the outcome one way or another, but that doesn't seem to matter to plaintiff's attorneys or panicked PR departments at the front offices of gun manufacturers.

The problem with the PT145 is that the "loaded chamber indicator" significantly weakens the extractor, making the entire pistol far less reliable than it would be without the device. S&W's "loaded chamber indicator" is a window cut into the top of the chamber. That may not weaken the chamber significantly, but it is, of course, useless in low light.

The key lock is also a great concern. I worry that the pistol might decide to sterilize itself in the middle of a fight! We've seen this happen, albeit rarely, with Taurus revolvers.

No thanks to all of it! I'm not about to offer up my body as a "beta test" for these untested "safety" gimmicks. I want only proven and tested guns that always work. I'm surely glad there are still several courageous manufacturers who are not knuckling under to this ill-begotten hysteria.

/John

[36fan]

I have a Taurus 9mm PT 111 w/ the internal lock. I've had it over a year now with no problems. I rarely (if ever) use the lock, and it has never locked on its own.

[Andrew Rothman]

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2000/30Jul00.html

28 June 00

This from a colleague in the training business:

"Last Saturday at one of our ‘permit classes' a young lady arrived with a new, Taurus 38Spl revolver (snubby), with a ‘key lock' behind the hammer. They all come that way now. It's a new ‘safety' feature.

As she was shooting, the revolver suddenly locked up and thereafter could not be made to fire. The thing just stopped without the key ever having been used to lock the firearm. Under the recoil of multiple shots, the locking screw apparently decided to operate itself!

She didn't have the key with her, and we had to loan her another pistol in order for her to finish the course. Not very comforting, to say the least!"

Lesson: If your defensive firearm comes with attachments and gizmos placed there solely for political correctness, get them off the gun immediately, before they cost you your life!

/John

[Skunkabilly]

I've heard, and the tag on the gun warns such, the HK USPs will be damaged if you try to manipulate the gun while locked. Don't know if it's a 'feature' or an 'issue'. I haven't been brave enough to try it firsthand or malicious to try it at a gun store :o

[10-Ring]

I was at a gun shop not to long ago & saw a customer picking up his USP. He & the sales dude couldn't not open the slide so that the customer could start his proficiency test :rolleyes: I ended up asking them if they had unlocked the lock out device...I saved the day :D Short story long, the amount of abuse they afflicted on that USP didn't harm it at all.

[griz]

Appreciate for the info guys. I know some people who like the locks, one for instance leaves his new Remington shotgun locked at home because he has young kids, but it looks like it's not for me. While the locks may be no more likely to fail than any other part, for me they are a solution in search of a problem. I can easily secure any gun that I have, but I'm not sure I want a gun that can secure itself, even temporarily.

Thanks again, Griz

[10-Ring]

Also keep in mind that some stated require them for guns sold after a certain date :rolleyes: It may be a trend of the future to see these locks on more guns if those manufacturers want to compete in those states.

[VictorLouis]

The same thing happened with a Taurus belonging to one of the TFL/THR members[i]denfoote?[/]. There's also documented instances of this occuring with Remington's key-operated button safety on their recent shotguns.

[PCRCCW]

In my mind, having a loaded shotgun around with kids having access to it and relying on the lock to keep them alive should by get " curious"...is asking for trouble....

Locks lock by themselves and if they can do that, they just may fail the other way too....now add Murphy into the equation, come on guys you remember Murphy, :scrutiny:

Shoot well

[CZ 75 BD]

locked up first day out of the box. Fooled with the key, got it free, then locked again. Sent to Taurus for warranty repair, no problem since, approx. 800 rounds. I have never locked it, don't intend to. Seems like a real bad idea.:scrutiny:

[timbo]

With a USP, supposedly you can shear that lock off where it interfaces with the slide if you get physical with it. It would take some effort though, if you just tried to rack the slide normally you wouldn't put enough strain on it. Also, while I like the style of lock that is on it, I don't use it. It isn't something that will suddenly lock on you though so I'm not worried about it.

[C.R.Sam]

Any installed mechanical device can fail.

If not there, can't fail.

Sam

[HankB]

The counter guy at the new Oshman's claimed to have purchased a Steyr pistol that had to go back to the factory (or importer?) for repair, as the lock would periodically engage while shooting the pistol.

As a firm believer in Murphy's Law . . . I absolutely do NOT want an integral lock as a part of any of my firearms.

[manwithoutahome]

I have a taruas 650cia with the new lock thing on it. I would like to trust it but something in the back of my mind keeps on nagging me. I unlocked it and it's going to stay that way but I just can't bring myself to trust it 100%.

M

[Henry Bowman]

Any installed mechanical device can fail.

Better remove the thumb and grip safeties. And that cute little Glock trigger "safety."

I once knew a person who whould not have a garbage disposer in their sink for the sole reason that their cat who routinely climbed on the kitchen counters* might stick its paw into the drain hole at exactly the time that the wiring shorted causing it to start up . . . Dead serious. Highly educated engineer, no less.

* Don't even get me started on cat people.

[C.R.Sam]

Better remove the thumb and grip safeties. And that cute little Glock trigger "safety." Fine with me.:D

Sam

[Lennyjoe]

Taurus PT 100 for 5 years and never engaged the internal lock.

Never had it lock inadvertently.

Have no intentions of ever locking it.

[Okiecruffler]

I've got a Taurus 650 that has never locked in over 4K rds. Of course, somehow some of my red locktite got in the lock. If I ever do have to lock it, I'm in big trouble.

[J Miller]

J Miller said: More than likely nobody will come forward with any stories about failures. These locks haven't really been out there that long, so the number of them in use is still low.

Boy was I wrong!

I don't know about you griz, but after reading this, I flat refuse to purchase ANY gun with a built in lock, (unless it can be removed like the Springfields main spring housing.)