[Nightcrawler]

..for many reasons. The main being availability. The patents expired on the AR-15 long ago, so like the 1911, everybody's making them. You can get parts and accessories just about anywhere.

Furthermore, there's little in the way of competition. That is, there are few rifles that offer similar or better performance in the same price range.

But let's assume for a minute that the 89 Import ban and the 94 ban never happened. Semiauto versions of .223 rifles from all over the world are coming in, and parts and mags are readily had.

In a well stocked gun store, you can easily find semiauto AUGs, Sig 550s, FA MASs, HK 33s, G36s, SA80A2s (heh), FNCs, and maybe even a new deal like an FN2000.

What would you buy then? What would you pick over the AR-15? Or would you stick with the AR?

Why or why not?

(Note: If you'd opt for the G36, how do you feel about the integral optics arrangement and the lack of irons? I've heard the scope isn't all that great.)

[Hk Paul]

Id get all thoes and more simply because I am a collector. I would still buy an AR15. However my Swiss army knife gun may be somthing else, depending on coustomization (ala AR)

[Sir Galahad]

Right at the moment, there is also a panic buy in the equation. After the "sniper twins" little escapade, people are worried they might not be able to get an AR in the future, so they're buying now instead of putting it off. (I wonder how many people put off buying HK-91s and 93s thinking, "Oh, they're only out to ban handguns! I can always get one of these later.") :banghead:

[Arkady]

I'd probably have a SIG 550 or 551, instead.
Second choice would be a HK G36.

None of the others really interest me.

[Dave Markowitz]

I had a Bushamster Dissipator, I now have a Mini-14. :) I was not enamoured with the AR design, although the Bushy was well-made. I would very much like to get an AR-180B.

Of the rifles mentioned in the initial post, I think an HK-93 would rock.

[444]

I would stick with the AR. None of the other rifles interest me, and I seriously doubt that they would sell in the price range of the AR. Price isn't the reason however. The AR15 works fine for me. In fact, I couldn't ask for any more. It is more accurate than I can hold and it is 100% reliable for me. The variety of accessories is possibly unmatched by any other weapons platform. Magazines are readily available and they are cheap; not to mention the fact that I have close to 50 AR magazines.
There are a lot of people who only get satisfaction by finding fault with things. The AR/M16 is no exception. Dispite the fact that it has been used all over the world for the last 30 years people will attempt to "prove" that they are worthless. Ok, fine, lets say that if you dump an AR in a vat of concrete and wait two days, that the rifle won't function. Let's say that the caliber is ineffective at 800 yards. Great. I am a civilain. I am not using my rifles to shoot humans. My rifles run fine for me in my realistic uses; they however might not suffice for the arm chair commando who's day dreams are as far from reality as is possible.

If you are an arm chair commando, ask yourself this, how many of those rifles listed have been proven in combat ? These exact rifles ?

[MagKnightX]

I would get a FA-MAS, AUG, SG-550, and, based on looks alone, if they had a few, a Vektor CR-21 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as26-e.htm). And yes, I would also get a G-36, even with the scope problems. And probably a few others, like Kalashnikovs, FALs, and an AR-180 with nifty features.

[Nightcrawler]

444, please note that I made no criticism of the AR-15 rifle in the post. All I'll say about that is that they've been dickering with the AR-15/M16 for almost 40 years now; after all that it had BETTER work, and it seems to do well enough (within its limitations, of course). I, personally, have little desire to own one, but then, I'm not big on .223 rifles in general.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

444,

I think if you looked into it you'd find that many of these guns have seen hard use. While the Austrians don't get out much, the Australians and their Augs do. Same with the Foreign Legion and the Famas in Africa. The HK33 has served in several hot spots and I'm sure Seal reports on the early versions would have much to say. The Galil has sure been around the block.

Why do you say that the AR is "proven in battle"? Everytime we deploy troops with it over the last 40 years they come back complaining.

[4v50 Gary]

Nightcrawler: First I'd buy a new safe. Then I'd buy one of everything. It'll take time, but like good wines, everything comes in due course of time. :)

[444]

Battle Proven: We went, and won. Anything else is sour grapes. Battle proven: How about the standard issued rifle/carbine for the most powerful army in the world ? Battle Proven, how about the most popular carbine in law enforcement in the US ? Battle Proven, how about the rifle of choice for serious competitors at the highest level of competition in the world ?

Have you ever been in the military ? Or for that matter any organization ? Did anyone complain ? Did you agree with every one of their complaints ? Were every one of their complaints valid ? What percentage complained ?
In this case, how many actual soldiers who were actually in combat complained ? How many gun writers and internet commandos complained from the safety of their Lazy Boy ? How germaine are these complaints to us as civilians ?

[Monkeyleg]

I had the opportunity to buy most of the rifles that Nightcrawler mentions before the ban, and for reasonable prices. Unfortunately, I only had enough money to buy one: an AR15. Would I now like to have one or two or five of the others? Sure. But the AR is still my favorite.

[Sir Galahad]

444, you are admittedly a civilian. I repaired the things in the army, so I think I know a bit more about the common malfunctions than you do. But, please do tell me how many M-16A1s you were repairing a day in your military experience?

Seecondly, actually, the M-16 has NOT served "all over the world" as one defines "all over the world" these days. Let's see...western Europe (where it didn't see combat, because if it had, we'd all be casualties of the Third World War and not reading this), Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Iraq 1 and 2, Afghanistan, South Korea (where it rarely sees action against infiltrators), Beirut (where we didn't stay long enough to see what might happen), Kosovo-Bosnia, El Salvador, and Somalia. Now, a M-16 has not yet served in one of the greatest testers of metallurgy and mechanics----Siberia. But the Ak has. Whoops! So much for that "all over the world" thing. Actually, the phrase you were looking for was "served in many places in the world" (and some of them just little niches.) The FAL has probably served in more extreme environments such as the Congo and most of Africa (as opposed to just Somalia), South America, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia. The AK has been all over Africa, South America, Central America, Central Asia, all of China, Mongolia, the Middle East, North Korea, in fact, the entire of Asia. The M-16 has yet to put in an appearance in China. Seeing as Asia covers a substantial part of land mass of the world, it's hard to credit the M-16 with being a prolific weapon all over the world except in the minds of its fans.

[Sir Galahad]

We went and won...


"It was a tie!"

----Otto of "A Fish Called Wanda" lectures on the war in Vietnam...

[444]

I love these "discussions". :D

[Sir Galahad]

Still waiting to hear what your MOS was, 444.

[444]

Sir, when I was in the military, I wasn't fixing rifles, I was carrying them a lot and shooting them a little. MOS 19D. Never had to have any of mine fixed.
So, let me get this straight, you mean that in an Army that has millions of rifles that some of them need repair :what: I got an idea, let's contact all the major gunsmiths and find out what guns they have worked on so we know which guns are pieces of junk. I mean, if civilains guns need repaired they must really be bad considering their relatively easy life compared to their military cousins. I wonder if when the communist block adopted the Ak series of rifle they had any trouble trying to find something for all their small arms repair guys to do. They must be like the Maytag man. By now I am sure the position has been phased out.
I wonder if we can count any of the rifles on the list, or the AK since they have never been in all out military battle in the US, Canada, or for that matter, Europe.

[Tamara]

In a well stocked gun store, you can easily find semiauto AUGs, Sig 550s, FA MASs, HK 33s, G36s, SA80A2s (heh), FNCs, and maybe even a new deal like an FN2000.

Having experience in shops both before and after the ban, I can tell you that the only .223 semi that came close to the AR-15 in sales was the Mini-14. This is including the dark ages, when a Daewoo had an MSRP of $625, an HK-93 had an MSRP of $666, an FNC had an MSRP of $683 and a Colt had an MSRP of $707.

[Sir Galahad]

Well, thanks for proving my point 444! Wow, that was easy! There are a least ten threads a week here where someone asks "Is_______a POS?" and scores of people say, yes, I owned a________and it was back for repair 10 times and stil didn't work right. So, I guess lots of people have the idea that 2+2=4. Go figure. Have a nice evening in your armchair there, trooper.

[Oleg Volk]

Easy on the condescension, please.

[Nightcrawler]

Oh for crying out LOUD.

All I asked is what .223 rifles you'd like (besides the AR) if you can get them. I'm gone a couple hours and it turns into a big debate about the AR.

I simply questioned whether or not people would possibly like to buy other .223 rifles than AR-15s, and apparently some people got all offended at that notion.

Come on. Some people like M14s more than FALs, but I don't get all hostile at them because of it.

Was it the notion that someone would possibly choose something over the AR? Is that idea REALLY THAT OFFENSIVE?

[Tamara]

They didn't buy them over the AR fourteen years ago when they were cheaper than a Colt. Do you think they'd do it now when they're more expensive than a DPMS, Bushie or Rock River? ;)

How are Mini-14 or AR-180 sales vis a vis the AR? Didn't HK discontinue the SL-8? There seems to be a certain market saturation point at which one gun defines a whole category: 1911, Glock, 10/22, Mk II, Mauser, Remington 700, AR-15...

I don't even currently own an AR, but I've recently disposed of a Daewoo DR200, a Beretta AR-70 and a custom alloy .223 FAL and plan on building another AR. Build one right and they run fine, and there's just so much stuff available for them that it's easy to turn the same basic gun into whatever you want it to be. Shorty CQB carbine? Check. Long-range varmint zapper? Check. Bucks-up DCM laser? Check. There's a lot of appeal to that.

[Edward429451]

This is a funny thread.:D

Aint America great? At least we got a large selection to argue about.

You guys got it all wrong anyhoo...My M1A's the best, so there!!:D

[Tamara]

You guys got it all wrong anyhoo...My M1A's the best, so there!! :D

Nuh-uh! My HK-91 can beat up your M1A!

Can not!

Can too!

No way!

Way!

:D

[444]

Come on now Nightcrawler, you KNOW that we have to have the AR vs. AK argument. It is in the protocols.
If we all agreed on this stuff, it would get dull.

And besides, I am rubber, you are glue ...........................................

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

I think it is probably pertinent to point out that the Swiss love their Sigs, the Italians their Berettas and Germans their HKs.

Could it possibly be that firearms have a home-court advantage? One that has little to do with the efficacy of the weapon and much more to do with familiarity and nationalism?

I would bet big money that none of you have ever handled, let alone fired, a Famas. But many of you would opinion that rifle X is better. Silly.



What sells in the US? All sorts of crap. Doesn't make it right.

[Tamara]

FA-MAS? Handled? Yes. Fired? No. At The Bullet Stop in 1987. There were very few semi-autos imported into the US by Century. They stickered at well over a grand at the time, twice the price of an AUG or AR, three times the price of a Daewoo or Mini folder. Good luck finding one for sale today. Interestingly, a .22LR clone was imported, too. I'd slap my mother in the mouth to get my hands on one of those; what a cool plinking toy! Almost as fun as a Tippmann (unless the Tippmann had a sear in it, of course...)

[EchoSixMike]

Used to have a Tippman, it was super cool, but the local range didn't want anything that didn't fire off the shoulder. Still have some of the half scale ammo cans and belts. S/F...Ken M

[Nightcrawler]

Agree on the point about the home-court advantage. THe military uses the M16 (and now the M4, too) and hence many people want something that looks just like what the GIs have (hence the recent flood of wannabe-M4s that I think are just silly).

Also, bear in mind that the one of the reasons there's such a swath of accessories for the AR is because it's been around the longest. The Mini-14 has been around for a good while, too, and there's plenty of stuff out there for it as well, but being made by only one manufacturer it never enjoyed the sales the AR did (if I'm not mistaken). (And, of course, it's not what our GIs are using.)

The supply of other .223 rifles was prettymuch cut off in 1989. So the AR has had and extra 14 years of prettymuch monopolizing the military-stile .223 autoloader market.

And since all those accessories are out there, people buy the rifles. Since people buy the rifles, people sell the accessories.

And most of the other rifles that were available for less than a Colt in the 80s weren't on the market long enough to really get established. I mean, how many here say that they won't buy a brand new design weapon, that they want to wait a couple years for them to get the bugs out?

I'll bet that had the bans never been enacted, the AR-15, while still having a majority, would have a lot more competition from the Sig, HK, etc. rifles. If nothing else, people would buy ARs AND get some of the others, too. And, with more of these rifles out there, there'd be more accessories, and with more accessories, people would buy more of the rifles...

[Wild Bill]

Tamara,
Interestingly, a .22LR clone was imported, too. I'd slap my mother in the mouth to get my hands on one of those; what a cool plinking toy!
No offense to your Mom … but let the slapping begin :neener:

http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/2Aprodpage/11022prod.html

:cool: I want one!

PS: to you and Edward429451 ...

my L1A1 beats both your HK-91 & M1A! So there!

says he storming home,

nose in the air,

confident that right and justice have been served,

hoping that nobody takes it too seriously …

:D

[BigG]

I would stick with the Colt as I'm sold on them. That and the AK types are the best of the breed imho. Did you ever see a Valmet AK? Drool.

The others are cool because seldom seen but really offer nada to me other than a possible investment opportunity. Thanks! :)

[Tamara]

I'll bet that had the bans never been enacted, the AR-15, while still having a majority, would have a lot more competition from the Sig, HK, etc. rifles.

Well, yeah... I think things would probably return to something like their pre-'89 status quo, but bear in mind that even back then the Colt AR outsold the other .223 imports by a wide margin, even though it was more expensive than all but a handful of them (AUG, MAS, Galil).



Sigh... Those were the salad days, baby. That brief period between FOPA '86 relaxing the "sporting purposes" import restrictions and the '89 import ban. I remember buying my first AK at a gun show with a friend; we each picked up a Norinco underfolder with spike bayonet for less than $200 apiece. Lusting over shorty Colt AR's with collapsable stocks in the Oshman's at the mall... ('course we couldn't afford the $600+ tarriff on those, but the stainless Ruger folders were only about $395, and so very A Team-looking...) Right next to them were HK's and FNC's for a shade under $600... Bought my SP-89 for just over $600... Woulda, shoulda, coulda... :uhoh:

[Wild Bill]

Tamara

STOP!

Don’t look back! Remembering the halcyon days of old only brings tears of regret to my eyes. Course they only fell on the inside of the reading glasses I now need for the small print. :rolleyes:

Worse yet is the realization that even if we were to return to those days it wouldn’t matter much. Priority shifts would prevent me from making too many wish list purchases – not that I wouldn’t want to.

Despite the arguable increase in mileage based wisdom, ageing has its drawbacks! :(

[hso]

Oooo, ooo, ooo! The Valmet, the Valmet!! It'd go great with my old Finn Mossins.:D

I'm actually a sucker for "Buck Rogers" guns so I'd have to get an AUG first and then work my way through the rest of the polymer pellet pooters.

Tam,

You sold the Korean and the Itallian and now you switching to "home cooking"?

[Edward429451]

my L1A1 beats both your HK-91 & M1A! So there!
Can not!
No way!

Sounds like a shootout at the OC corral.:D

Lusting over shorty Colt AR's with collapsable stocks in the Oshman's at the mall... ('course we couldn't afford the $600+ tarriff on those, but the stainless Ruger folders were only about $395, and so very A Team-looking...)

Thats exactly what happened to me! Couldn't afford the AR so bought Mini (s). That was good though cause the Mini's are good M1A trainers...

AR's are showing up at the range more though. It used to be HK's & SKS's but now they're everywhere. Saw three others last Sunday (two of em in female hands, gotta love that!):D

[Skunkabilly]

Nuh-uh! My HK-91 can beat up your M1A!
Can not!
Can too!
No way!
Way!

Skunk: Oleg, she started it!
Tam: Did not!
Skunk: Did too!
Tam: Did not times one hundred
Skunk: Did too times one million googleplux!!! :D

Nightcrawler, it would have to be an HK93 or G36 for the skunk :D

[Jeff White]

My EBR collection includes a preban SAR-48 FAL (bought before anyone thought of a ban), a Springfield NM M1A (very old marked Devine Texas) and six ARs in various configurations. I have owned a Mini-14, an HK91, a .223 AK and an original Uzi Carbine. I handled and fired just about everything else that was available, the Leader, the AUG, the AR18.....

Today I regret selling any of the models I owned in the past. but that is just for collector purposes. The Mini-14 was fun to shoot, but not accurate once the barrel warmed up and magazines were obscenely expensive compared to surplus USGI M16 mags. I never did like the feel of the HK91. Just personal preference, so I never considered an HK93. The HKs had the same problem that the Mini 14 did...magazines and accessories were very expensive compared to the AR. The .223 AK never did function right and would double and triple.

The AR15 simply was the best value. You could have an AR that was more ergonomic then any of the other models, had good accuracy and a lot ofUSGI surplus magazines for much less money then any of the competitors.

In the early '90s the aftermarket industry for the AR15 really took off and it became easy and cheap to have one in every configuration you'd like. Granted there were a lot of aftermarket accessories for the Mini 14, but the rifle just didn't lend itself to be easily cusomizible by the owner. Proper mounting of evil flash hiders required a gunsmith. The same thing with decent barrels.

If the '94 ban were to expire and the President to sign an executive order eliminating his father's import ban, I don't think you'd see anything coming in that would give the AR15 any real competition.

Jeff

[Correia]

I'm going to have to go against my fellow mods on this one. :) I think readily available EBRs other than the AR, at similar prices would sell like hotcakes.

A lot of things have changed since the gravy days 86-89. I'm willing to bet that the market for black rifles has grown greatly since that time. At that time you could get an AR or any of a multitude of rifles for similar prices.

Now however times have changed. Since '89 the market has seen a few things happen. The consumers have been pretty much stuck with one kind of weapon, the AR was really your only serious .223 black rifle option. Also during that time the market was conditioned to believe that the foreign guns were somehow better. Caused of course by high prices (in reality a function of supply and demand rather than quality) and the old grass is greener on the other side of the fence syndrome.

How often do we hear people who have never actually even seen one go on about the superiority of some other weapon system? But they have built that system up in their mind to be better. It is all perception. And in marketing perception is king.

Another factor that would help out another .223 EBR on the market is the fact that there are many of us, who have used ARs for years who are not entirely satisfied with the gun. Now don't take this to be a bash on the AR and don't feel the need to jump in and defend your baby or call me a couch commando or any BS like that. The fact remains that for us PERSONALLY we don't like the AR for whatever reason. Booya, instant new EBR market.

Of course HK failed with the SL8. The damn thing costed a fortune, and it only took neutered magazines. Where is the selling point other than to hard core HK fanatics. If they made a domestic version that took commonly available mags, (or regular mags when the AWB dies) and it sold for AR prices then it would sell really well.

The M96 does okay, but its price is close to double that of an AR. If there was an $800 M96 it would sell much better. No doubt in my mind.

Look at the AR180b. Brand new gun. Hard to find because they get snatched up as fast as Armalite can get them out the door. Only one manufacturer, no real after market stuff, not fancy at all, and right now they are going for scalpers prices so that they aren't that much cheaper than an AR.

Us gun folks like diversity in our safes. Give us more options at a competitive price and they will sell very well.

[Jeff White]

Larry,
I don't think your post is diametrically opposed to mine. :D Actually you hit on the big thing, price and value. If the Robinson M96 was an $800.00 rifle instead of an $11-1300.00 I'm sure they would sell a lot more of them.

Given the fact that many people (who like you said probably have never touched one) think that if it has HK stamped on it it's the best there is, if HK produced a semi-auto G36 in their new Columbus GA. plant and priced it competitively with the AR, they would sell tons of them. But they'd have to price magazines and accessories competitivly too. I know several people besides myself who went with the more expensive AR over the Mini 14 because of the cost of magazines.

One factor in sales that you neglected to mention is that the AR is similar to the issue rifle of the US military. M1s, 1903 Springfields, M1 Carbines have always been popular because they were issued to the troops.

Jeff

[Correia]

True Jeff, because it is the rifle of the home team, it will always have that advantage. And disadvantage too though if you think about it.

We hear constantly about some GI's rifle that jammed, or the story circulates through the internet and grows in scope until whole units are killed because their ARs jammed when they were attacked by pygmies with pointy sticks. :)

Now ask the same people who believe that the AR is a breaking jam-a-matic about the Aug, and they will probably think it is the best thing since sliced bread. Far superior to our rifle of course.

Now ask an Australian about the Aug, and they will tell you that it is a jam-a-matic piece of hud. And the M16 is the way to go. :D

[Warner]

From following this closely over the years, I've learned that the AUSTRIAN AUG is a totally different animal than the AUSTRAILIAN "AUG" in terms of quality and attention to detail.

It's all the news on the AUG sites.

[BigG]

I've handled a good bunch of EBRs, including Galils, HKs, AR180s, AK types, AUGs, and believe me, for my purposes the Colt has got it over all of em. They are exotic because seldom seen to me.

[Number 6]

Would a semi-auto M249 be legal to import then? If so that’s where my vote would be. If not, I would opt for a G36, but the one with the standard sights in conjunction with the 1.5x scope. I wouldn't be too thrilled with a rifle with no iron sights at all. An FNC would be cool too.

One factor that I think that is missing from the debate is the effect that video games have had on gun buying and gun culture. I did not even know what a G36 was until I played Rainbow Six. Now you have a bunch of people in their 20's and early 30's playing games with many evil black rifles in them. That being said I still think the Ar-15 is a fine rifle and really wish I could own one if it was not for the fact that I live in California

[gun-fucious]

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=450434

[TheLastBoyScout]

Come on now Nightcrawler, you KNOW that we have to have the AR vs. AK argument. It is in the protocols.


And now to throw some diesel fuel (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-iraq-ak-47-heaven,0,4966114.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines) on that fire....:neener:

[Tamara]

A lot of things have changed since the gravy days 86-89. I'm willing to bet that the market for black rifles has grown greatly since that time. At that time you could get an AR or any of a multitude of rifles for similar prices. ... The consumers have been pretty much stuck with one kind of weapon, the AR was really your only serious .223 black rifle option. Also during that time the market was conditioned to believe that the foreign guns were somehow better.

...ahh, but you young'uns forget that before the '86-'89 gravy days came the dark days between '68 and '86. Would you believe I payed more for a bubba-ized No.4MkI with no import marks back in early '86 than you'd pay for a perfect SMLE right now? That's right, for nearly eighteen years, virtually no rifles that had any military connection whatsoever came into this country. No Garands, no Enfields, no AK's, no AUG's, no Mausers... The dam that burst in '86 makes the dam that would burst if the '89 and '94 bans went away simultaneously look like a trickle by comparison. Overnight, literally, stores were flooded with AK's, Enfields, Galils, Valmets, FN-49's, Hakims, Mausers, et cetera, ad nauseum. And still the AR and Mini outsold all them wierd furrin' guns combined. Granted, back in those days of outhouses and horses 'n' buggies we didn't have Rainbow Six to get us spun up about foreign EBR's, but we did have books, movies, and Soldier of Fiction...

[Tamara]

TheLastBoyScout has apparently never tried using diesel fuel as an accelerant. ;)

I'll never forget when me and a bud snuck a gas can out of his parents' garage and poured it all over some army men in the back yard. We went through a whole book of matches trying to torch those little green and grey guys. The fact that the car in the garage was a 300SDL never crossed our minds... :uhoh:

[TheLastBoyScout]

diesel is tough to light, but if it catches, it goes. Up at the camp I work at, we decided to use a little "insurance" with a campfire one night, and built in a diesel smudgepot (#10 can with diesel soaked TP inside) when we made it. When it lit, the diesel didn't go right away, but about 20 minutes later the flame went from a few feet to atleast 10 feet high when the smudgepot finally ignited.

[Jeff White]

Diesel fuel, heck that wasn't even as volitile as that.....Take an armor crewman out of his tank and make him do an Infantry patrol with an M9 and about any rifle will do.....

Jeff

[Correia]

Tam, I wish I would have been buying guns in 1986. :) Sadly I was 11. At that time I was happy with a Nylon 66 and a bolt action .410.

Wow, if you think about it, EBRs are a lot cheaper now. They were $600-$800 in '86 and they are $600-$800 in '03. Just not the imported verbotten ones.

[Brian Dale]

Tam (and Correia), I wish I would have been buying guns in 1986. Sadly I was in graduate school, and stupid :( . At that time I was happy with my Remington Model 11. I'm still happy with it, of course, and with my 11-48, and my 1100, and my .22s, and my M-N, and my Marlin 336, and my - whoops! got lost in a reverie, there...

I'm saving up for the EBR, especially for highpower comp, and for the Garand, and for the 1903, and for the old revolvers, and for the milsurp rifles, and lotsa ammo. Wait - I'm spending on ammo already. Good.

I like the underlying theme here: we're buying rifles NOW!

[Brian Dale]

:uhoh: and for the milsurp rifles
should have read, "and for the FOREIGN milsurp rifles" (Mausers, more M-Ns, Enfields; you get the idea). I know that the Garand and the 1903 are military rifles. :)