What if this had gone further than just words?


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.cheese.
July 6, 2008, 09:01 PM
Today I was out with somebody. I was in the passenger seat. As we were driving, somebody was jay-walking and we slowed down and came to a stop so that we didn't hit them (as anybody would do). All of a sudden, the guy behind us starts honking and signaling for us to move. We just assumed he didn't see that there was somebody in front of us and that we couldn't.

A short ways up there was a stop light. We came to the stop light and the guy quickly drives up to my side and opens his window and signals for me to open mine. I open my window and he starts screaming that we can't stop in the middle of the road like that blocking traffic yada yada. I simply said, "Sorry, but there was a person walking in front of us so we had to stop."

Oddly, he went NUTS. He starts cursing, spitting, using hand gestures, you name it and he did it. Who knows what his deal was.

Anyways, when the light turned green it ended as we both went on and fortunately he turned a short ways up.

My question is, what if he had gotten out of the car and started getting physical, and also - add in two scenarios, one where he has a weapon, one where he does not. Then let's divide the scenario of him having a weapon into subcategories - one with a baseball bat, one with a knife, and one with a gun.

Would you say that in all cases, the best course of action would have been to run the red light and get out of there? That's what I tend to think, but I wonder what your opinions are.

Also, pertinent information is that I was in a car capable of moving pretty fast if need be. It wasn't my car, but it was the same make/model just a different year. So I think it probably was capable of 300 hp or maybe slightly less as mine is capable of 306 hp and this car was not as new as mine but only maybe 1 or 2 years older.

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General Geoff
July 6, 2008, 09:08 PM
Regardless of the power of your car, so long as you're not boxed in by traffic (and the car is not otherwise immobilized), the best course of action is always to drive away.

cassandrasdaddy
July 6, 2008, 09:17 PM
pedal on the right. i'll give you the other side of it. was driving my friend who decided to stop taking his meds when he imagined the guys in another truck "said something" he went off was a psychotic nightmare. mind you when i asked what they said he couldn't tell me. no way to win in a deal like that

justin 561
July 6, 2008, 09:34 PM
Your driver could have easily hit the gas and been gone, situation defused.

Treo
July 6, 2008, 09:38 PM
If you can leave, do it. May not be the hard core internet warrior thing to do but it would certainly be cheaper in terms of legal bills later.

Scenario 1 W/ weapon: He's met the criteria for lethal force.

Scenario 2 W/out weapon and there's two of you and one of him? Not so much.

In all scenarios call the cops

Maybe offer him some chocolate milk?

The_Sheriff
July 6, 2008, 09:45 PM
Depends if he is trying to block your car from moving or not. If he had a weapon and you were boxed in I would try to move around find cover draw down on him and have your friend call the police/sheriff.

- The_Sheriff

Rokyudai
July 6, 2008, 09:57 PM
In the proposed scenario where he gets out next to you and you have a safe route to leave, I agree to drive away. You keep your head, cover, and he loses his dignity.

esmith
July 6, 2008, 09:58 PM
Your driver could have easily hit the gas and been gone, situation defused.

Not always, a lot of times if someone is angry enough at what someone else did in traffic, they will stalk them. Happened to my brother a few times.

Funderb
July 6, 2008, 10:03 PM
if you weren't such a nuisance maybe people would like you more.
:p

here in florida it is okay to run clear red lights if you feel you are threatened. ESP at night.

bogie
July 6, 2008, 10:09 PM
Who cares?

Smile, and say something incomprehensible in another language which the doof won't understand. Lock the door, roll up the window, and drive away.

Max, Oleg, you reading this? How do you say "Your mother raised a jackass for a son" in Russian? Skunky, if you're lurking - Chinese translation?

Just remember - smile while you are doing it...

lee n. field
July 6, 2008, 10:09 PM
My question is, what if he had gotten out of the car and started getting physical, and also - add in two scenarios, one where he has a weapon, one where he does not. Then let's divide the scenario of him having a weapon into subcategories - one with a baseball bat, one with a knife, and one with a gun.

If he gets out of his car, stay in yours. If he has anything less than a gun, call cops on a cell phone, and otherwise be the sane party. If he has a gun, drive away.

JWarren
July 6, 2008, 10:18 PM
My question is, what if he had gotten out of the car and started getting physical


What you asked essentially DID happen to me a few years ago.

On my LAST night living in Orlando, FL I was headed out to a friends to have a going away drink with some friends. The next day, I was going to be taking a rental truck, loading my jeep on a trailer and driving 12 hours to my new home.

I was on Hwy 434 (I think) headed from my apt in Longwood to my friend's house in Winter Park. Near Maitland, I stopped at a redlight. I was behind another car on a 4 lane highway. I was in the Right lane, there was a lane on the left of me, and there was a turn lane to the far inside (past the left lane.)

So...

I am at the light, and I have the radio kinda loud in my Jeep Grand Cherokee with the windows rolled up. As I am waiting for the light to change, I am staring off into space out the driver's side window thinking about all the things that I had to do before I got on the road the next day. As it typically happens, I found my eyes focus on a bright spot: An illuminated Home Depot Sign in the parking lot over to the left.

In my peripherial vision, I see a guy in the passenger seat of a Silver Honda Accord next to me. The guy was a parody of a gangsta... I'm not making this up: He was a white guy in an Orlando Magic starter jersey. He has a hat turned semi-sideways. He has several long gold chains around his neck, and has a gold tooth. Ironically, he was being driven by an attactive preppy-looking girl.

Now, I need to say this: I didn't even notice these people until I see in my peripherial vision that he is literally screaming something out the window. I can't hear what he is saying with the windows up and the radio on. Being tired from a day of packing, I calmly gesture to him to "hold up" as I turn the radio off and roll the window down.

Hey, the guy may have something important to say, right?

No. I was wrong.

When I can hear him, He screams at me to "Stop looking at his girl!" Oooookay.... whatever.

Now, I'm tired. I'm really not in the mood for this, and I've never been in the mood to be bullied. I just smirk and say "Dude, I'm staring off into space. I couldn't care less about you or your girl."

I figured that ended that.

Wrong.

He jumps out of the car and runs to my window. Remember, this is happening in the timespan of a red light.

He reached into my window like he is planning on dragging me out the window. Ahh... but I have a secret weapon: Power Windows.

I just start rolling the window up and he wisely pulls his arms out of my Jeep. That showed him, right?

Wrong.

He now proceeds to beat his fists on my rolled up window. OK... I've about had enough. But I can't get away with the cars around me. We are sitting in traffic with cars in front and behind both of us.

But I really don't want said idiot to break the window out of my Jeep. So I roll it back down. Now he reachs in and grabs my shirt.

His eyes become fixiated on the Glock 19 that I had in my right hand (out of his reach) trained at his face. I didn't say anything. I didn't have to.

He jumps back and LITERALLY dives into the passenger-side window of the Honda Accord as I can hear him screaming "He's got a gun!"

The preppy-looking girl must moonlight as a NASCAR driver. As he is still getting in the window, she pulls into the turning lane to their left. She goes around the car in front of her, and runs the red light. She almost hit two cars. I see them flying up the road ahead of me and they are gone.

But I'm not ignorant to the ways of man. No, not by any means. I figure that at least a few of the on-lookers have already called 911. I figure that they have a good description of both of us, and I'm certain that they heard Pee-Wee G screaming about a gun.

I'm pretty certain that I'm going to be late to my going away party.

I was right.

When the light was clear, I pulled into a gas station just on the other side of the red light to wait for the police.

As it turns out, 4 other cars pulled in to wait for the police, too. They all called 911. And they all had both my license plate number and the Accord's.

And yes, they all heard about the gun.

The police came and took my statement. Then they took the statements of the others. Then they came back to me and asked me about my gun.

I said that I did indeed have one, and they asked to see it. I complied. But first I asked if he minded if I unloaded it. I stated that I don't pass loaded guns back and forth. Obviously, he said sure. I dropped the magazine and racked the slide to retrieve the round in the chamber.

The LEO said "Whoa... you had one chambered?" I said yeah.

He took my Glock and went back to his car. I presumed that it was to run its serial number.

When the LEO got back to my jeep, he had a big grin on his face. I asked him what was so funny.

As he is explaining to me, he casually hands my Glock back to me and he never says a word again about the handgun.

But as he is handing it to me, he tells me that he ran the plates on the Accord. It turns out that the car is registered to a Doctor in Winter Park in a VERY expensive suburb.

He says, I figure that he bought that car for his daughter and that Daddy's Little Girl must have a thing for bad boys.

He says that there are units enroute to the Doctor's house now and that he wishes he could be there when his precious daughter gets home.


The LEO shook my hand, and wished me a safe trip for the next day.




-- John

cassandrasdaddy
July 6, 2008, 10:27 PM
wait john... surely they proned you out and abused you... you don't suppose your attitude had anything to do with the way the cops treated ya do ya? that and that pesky thing of him running and you staying

JWarren
July 6, 2008, 10:38 PM
cassandrasdaddy,

I know... It was surreal. I treated him like a human, he treated me like a human, and he smiled and shook my hand.


I failed to mention this, however....

While we were all waiting for the LOE's to arrive, several of the witnesses came up to me (I was out of the jeep) and told me that they couldn't believe what they were seeing. All were positive about the situation as I handled it.

One older guy with his wife said that if I didn't do something, he was about take care of things. His wife was nodding in agreement.

Northwest Orlando was a nice place to live. :)


-- John

.cheese.
July 6, 2008, 10:51 PM
ok. So it sounds like pedal to the metal is the way to go as I thought.

I was just making sure. :)

I added the information about the car just in case anybody was going to say, "Well, if you have a car that's falling apart and incapable of getting out of there..." as that wasn't the case at all.

mbt2001
July 7, 2008, 02:59 PM
I know... It was surreal. I treated him like a human, he treated me like a human, and he smiled and shook my hand.

Fair play wins again... Can't hate on that.

Blackbeard
July 7, 2008, 03:13 PM
Two words: Drive away.

Noxx
July 7, 2008, 03:15 PM
I know... It was surreal. I treated him like a human, he treated me like a human, and he smiled and shook my hand.

I never cease to be baffled by the range of situations in which this does, and does not work out. Depends on the luck of the draw who responds to a call I suppose.

Many years ago, in another more irresponsible life I caught a DWI case. I was arrested by the CHP with my GF at the time in my truck. I was polite and compliant, they were polite and non-threatening. They even parked my truck in a nearby lot for me and saved me a costly impound. (they offered to let the GF take it home, but she couldn't drive a manual.)

In the same area, I've been verbally abused, drawn on, and hooked up on the curb for a broken light stop.

Just goes to show you never can tell, but it certainly pays to keep your own cool, either way.

In response to the OP, I'd drive away if I could, or smile and babble in Russian if I can't. I've defused a couple with that gimmick, although my Russian is horrible, I probably told the guy I had a mouse in my teapot, but whatever works. Those kinds of confrontations are so pointless, I'm not interested in going home a "winner", I'm just interested in getting home.

Eric F
July 7, 2008, 03:18 PM
Always try to evade first but lets say in any case he block you off and you cant back up. Stay in the car(if he does not have a gun) Shoot only as a last resort. The second he shows a gun start shooting!

CountGlockula
July 7, 2008, 03:19 PM
My question is, what if he had gotten out of the car and started getting physical, and also - add in two scenarios, one where he has a weapon, one where he does not. Then let's divide the scenario of him having a weapon into subcategories - one with a baseball bat, one with a knife, and one with a gun.

Drive away or stop the threat.

FCFC
July 7, 2008, 03:25 PM
My question is, what if he had gotten out of the car and started getting physical...

If he gets out of the car it's time to leave. If, and only if, there is no crossing traffic, it's OK to blow the red light. Make sure you have your cell phone and if he follows you even the least little bit, call 911 and advise them what is happening. Since you're the passenger, you can be a good witness for the cops.

JWarren
July 7, 2008, 07:59 PM
I am in agreement with what seems to be the consensus here in that Driving away is the best option.


However, just for the sake of progressing the discussion...


In the account that I gave above in this thread, you will note that both the attacker's car and my jeep had cars in front of them, behind them, and there was no way for me to go on the shoulder.

So I pose this question partly for sake of the discussion and partly because my account demonstrated a variance in the Drive away scenerio.


The question is... What IF the Drive Away option is not available.


And a follow-up question...

What if the ONLY direction that you can run away is directly through a busy intersection where you have a red light? The chance of avoiding a collision and getting hurt-- or hurting someone else is a very likely possibility here.


I'd love to hear your comments or views on this.


Thanks.



-- John

Picard
July 7, 2008, 08:26 PM
It's been posted before, but I think this is the situation that you're talking about. Too bad that woman didn't have a CCW.
If I had a gun, I would have used it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=i7CauVIDQ4U

Rachen
July 7, 2008, 08:29 PM
If you can leave, do it. May not be the hard core internet warrior thing to do but it would certainly be cheaper in terms of legal bills later.

The best and most skilled martial artist is one who avoids a fight in the first place.

makarovnik
July 7, 2008, 08:36 PM
In your neck of the woods it is OK to protect yourself. Where I live... not so much. Show him you are calling 911 and get his license number. If he gets physical best to whack him with something like a crowbar, otherwise put a cap in his butt.

Dbl0Kevin
July 7, 2008, 08:42 PM
JWarren,

I believe you summed up my thoughts on the subject pretty nicely. It's very simple for a lot of people to just say "drive away and run the light problem solved", but let's look at that shall we?

Even if you are the first car with no one in front of you just hitting the gas in a panic and running a red light is not the greatest idea in the world. Traffic lights turn red for a very good reason, because cars are travelling in the other direction and don't expect to stop. If I have a highly aggitated attacker that just got out of his vehicle coming at me I'm not going to take my eyes off of him to look both ways and make sure I'm clear to run a red light.

In the time it takes for you to see if the roadway is clear he could have closed the distance and already be attacking you. After all if he's already next to you it's not like he's got a long way to go.

Therefore just blowing the redlight and driving away isn't the simple easy solution that many here present it to be.

IMO if you have an active threat that is closing the distance to you I would not recommend averting your attention from the situation. Even if you started to drive away....if the attacker has a gun you are not magically out of range and are in no position to anticipate his attack.

If I were in that situation I would first give a verbal warning using a command presence for the attacker to return to his vehicle. If he continued on I would draw my firearm and give him another verbal and visual command to stop. If he continues to attack then he just becomes another example of Darwin in action. I would not put others in danger by blowing through a red light and possibly crashing thereby injuring or killing an innocent person.

ronnieevans40
July 11, 2008, 12:11 AM
Drive away. The guy was a jerk and probably has real issues but killing is not easy nor is it the solution. Drive away and let it go.........remember that if you draw it means you plan to shoot, if you shoot shoot to kill, every situation is different but you should go to the gun only when there is no escape. P.S. No shoot out ends friendly

FCFC
July 11, 2008, 12:19 AM
Only foolish people get shot or shoot in traffic altercations. It is so expensive either way.

Sans Authoritas
July 11, 2008, 12:28 AM
Only foolish people get shot or shoot in traffic altercations. It is so expensive either way.

It's not foolish to defend yourself. The only "foolish" thing is if you do something to initiate or escalate a bad situation. And even then, it's not foolish to defend yourself against the unjust aggressor. Even if his out-of-control aggression was sparked merely by which direction you were looking.

-Sans Authoritas

cassandrasdaddy
July 11, 2008, 12:35 AM
to quote a wise man a good run beats a bad stand

Sans Authoritas
July 11, 2008, 12:39 AM
No doubt. And a good run beats a good stand, if it is possible. One is not always obliged to run, even if one can run.

-Sans Authoritas

outerlimit
July 11, 2008, 12:41 AM
Though often given as advice on gun forums, running away is not always the answer. I've never done it and here I am still alive. It can make a situation go out of control just as easily as standing up for one's self. And it generally provokes the other person to do the same thing again to someone else.

GNLaFrance
July 11, 2008, 01:04 AM
Gangsta-looking white kid in a Honda Accord with a preppy-looking girlfriend driving? I would have figured, "poseur gangsta-wanabee". The guy was all bluff and bluster, he figured you'd crumble up and get all emo, "Oh, please, Mr. Gangsta, don't hurt me," because that's how everyone he knows would react to that kind of noise. He was trying to impress Girlfriend with Rich Daddy. What a loser. Thoughts on the condition of his Fruit of the Looms after he saw the Glock? Girlfriend with Rich Daddy once they're out of sight: "Like, oh my God, what is that smell?" :barf:

Richbaker
July 11, 2008, 01:14 AM
extenuate


I suspect you meant "escalate" ...I didn't teven think "extenuate" was a word...

Main Entry: ex·ten·u·ate
Pronunciation: \ik-ˈsten-yə-ˌwāt, -yü-ˌāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ex·ten·u·at·ed; ex·ten·u·at·ing
Etymology: Latin extenuatus, past participle of extenuare, from ex- + tenuis thin — more at thin
Date: 1529
1 aarchaic : to make light of b: to lessen or to try to lessen the seriousness or extent of by making partial excuses : mitigate <extenuating circumstances> cobsolete : disparage
2 aarchaic : to make thin or emaciated b: to lessen the strength or effect of

Sans Authoritas
July 11, 2008, 01:21 AM
My, it has been a long day, hasn't it? Thank you kindly.

-Sans Authoritas

gtmerkley
July 11, 2008, 01:33 AM
Cound have been bad.

jackstinson
July 11, 2008, 09:09 AM
I had that happen to me and it is the reason I got my CHL.
And yes, I DID DRIVE AWAY! But driving away does not good if they follow you. The bozo followed me and I got caught in traffic at an intersection...with him right behind me. By now he is more enraged, he got out of his vehicle and started the tirade at my window. At the point where it appeared things were going to get physical, I remembered I was in a Jeep and I might be able to drive around the traffic. I did and left him standing in the road, since his vehicle couldn't follow. If he would have had a gun, it might have ended differently.
There have been too many road rage related shootings and beatings around here in the past few years. Some people are just crazy and I am too old to deal with them. I decided at that point to start carrying.
Jack

La Pistoletta
July 11, 2008, 09:12 AM
Seems like getting out of there fast would be advisable.

kludge
July 11, 2008, 09:18 AM
Don't open your window.

I would not want to talk to him, and I don't want to hear what he has to say.

People have an uncontrollable urge to "apologize" or expain their actions.

CYANIDEGENOCIDE
July 11, 2008, 11:09 AM
I was driving down a 6 lane road and this fellow started to come into my lane. I would like to think he saw me (I was driving a big white pickup) but in reality he probably didn't because he was on the phone. As he was changing lanes I was on the brakes and the horn (I figured maybe I was in his blind spot and I tried to warn him it was not safe to change lanes). So he whips in behind me. Silly me thought eveything was fine, accident avoided, all good. Well I look in the rear view and he is shaking his fist and giving me the finger all the while STILL on the phone. I decided to take the long way home and cut through the neighborhood, and he follows. I know there are children in the neighborhood so I drive at 20mph not terribly slow but slow enough I would have a chance to react. Now he is blowing his horn, he has the window down, and he is so close I can't see his hood. This goes on for a few blocks until we reach the part of the neightborhood that hasn't been developed yet just barren ground no houses no trees and you can see for a good ways. I sped up to about 35mph and he kept tailgating...until we came to the speed bumps. I'm in a truck so a speed bump is a suggestion, not so for the fellow in a mini-van. The next day I went home the same way and there was a fresh streak of motor oil for about 100 feet.

brickeyee
July 11, 2008, 11:10 AM
There is a ‘Florida Gun Owner’s Guide’ available.
Buy a copy and read it.

Law is NOT just the written statute law, but also the case (AKA ‘common’) law that shows how the statute law has been interpreted by the courts.
The case law is just as binding, and deals with the nuances of real cases.
It can help define things like what is reasonable fear as the court has viewed them.
While new cases continuously modify the case law, at least knowing what the existing limits are gives you a better starting point.

entropy
July 11, 2008, 11:19 AM
This should be in S&T.....

doc2rn
July 11, 2008, 01:16 PM
There was a guy like this in Topeka awhile back. He drove a white car and if he thought you had done something he didnt like he would just roll down the window and start shooting at you with a 12g. Let me see if I can find a link in the Topeka Capitol Journal.

I think this part of the case. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_20080213/ai_n21417072

crankshop1000
July 11, 2008, 01:39 PM
Castle doctrine also applies to your vehicle.If someone is foolish enough to attack you in your vehicle they deserve what they get.I don't advocate doing anything but minding your own business and not try to escalate the situation.Simply drive away if safely possible.The last issue I had was as a passenger in a veh driven by my lovely wife.A biker felt the need to follow alongside us from stoplight to stoplight swearing at me and insulting my wife because she got our vehicle between him and his brother biker in traffic.She wanted to run, but traffic said no way.The biker crossed the line when he stuck his helmeted head into my window to continue the verbal barrage.My 1911 said "enough, this is over.

brickeyee
July 11, 2008, 03:18 PM
You are invited to be the next test case about 'reasonable fear' under FL law.

Read up on FL law.
You cannot respond to just a verbal attack with lethal force.

John4me05
July 11, 2008, 04:41 PM
What if the ONLY direction that you can run away is directly through a busy intersection where you have a red light? The chance of avoiding a collision and getting hurt-- or hurting someone else is a very likely possibility here.


I'd love to hear your comments or views on this.


There are 5 steps to a good shoot

1 You did not cause the situation
2 You believe you were in imminent danger or death or serious bodily injury
3 You didnt violate any opportunity to retreat or avoid danger
4 You exhausted all other means to avoid using deadly force
5 Your use of force presents no danger to innocents

If you meet all 5 criteria you should be warded a good shoot... Not to say you wont have to go through a court but you SHOULD in all likelyhood be vindicated of any charge

FCFC
July 12, 2008, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Only foolish people get shot or shoot in traffic altercations. It is so expensive either way.

It's not foolish to defend yourself.

No, it's not foolish to defend yourself. But that wasn't the point. With a vehicle and a cell phone there are almost no situations that can't be dealt with by leaving the scene.

Avoidance of situations that will escalate into SD situations is much, much wiser than entering into them on some self-righteous and ad hoc "just" basis.

Only foolish people get shot or shoot in traffic altercations.

Drive away safely and purposefully. Get on the cell phone and report it if there is a threat.

Mt Shooter
July 12, 2008, 10:38 AM
How about when he was honking while you stopped for the pedestrian, shut the engine off, walk back and hand him the keys. Tell him "here you run them over I don't have the guts for it." :D

xsquidgator
July 12, 2008, 10:45 AM
There are 5 steps to a good shoot

1 You did not cause the situation
2 You believe you were in imminent danger or death or serious bodily injury
3 You didnt violate any opportunity to retreat or avoid danger
4 You exhausted all other means to avoid using deadly force
5 Your use of force presents no danger to innocents

If you meet all 5 criteria you should be warded a good shoot... Not to say you wont have to go through a court but you SHOULD in all likelyhood be vindicated of any charge

I'm in FL which has a "stand your ground" law in addition to a good Castle Doctrine law. But, if circumstances allowed me to, I'd still adhere to the 5 things you mention. You escape the worst of the aftermath consequences if you have all 5 of these, but that's only if the legal system works the way it's supposed to. In my layman's understanding of the law, attempting to retreat and the bad guy not allowing you to, really tilts the legal odds in your favor should you later decide to use deadly force. Even if retreating is not required by local law.

model4006
July 12, 2008, 10:58 AM
350z?

Shung
July 12, 2008, 11:18 AM
reminds me a well known fake videos on youtube.. 2 morons, a camera, a guy and his wife, and a gun !

I bet you know it ;)

GhostlyKarliion
July 12, 2008, 12:49 PM
"drive away" is a kneejerk answer that covers only the rarest of occasions.

it is spouted by the brady bunch and their ilk as a manner of 'safely' getting out of a bad situation, problem is, it's almost never an accecptable saftey risk.

anytime your running from an attacker will put more innocent people in harms way then it is a bad idea to run.

simple esclation, guy gets out of his car, I get my hand ready to draw my gun and verbally challenge him to stop and leave.

guy does not heed warning then I challenge again and express intent to defend myself. If he gets a weapon, skip to number three.

guy makes continued aggressive actions and keeps coming, he gets the business end of a gunbarrel pointed at his head.

he keeps coming then he gets shot, he leaves then I call the cops and report his plate and vehicle description.

try to run in a busy intersection and you will wind up hurting an innocent person, if someone must be hurt, may it be the poor dumb bastard that it trying to hurt you.

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