What prompted the current open carry fad?


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bogie
July 7, 2008, 02:51 AM
Guys, I don't get too many of the gun rags anymore... I've ceased to find some parts funny, and I don't seem to need to buy every new and improved whizbang that's out there...

So...

90% of the time something becomes "important," it starts in one of the magazines - is that the case this time? Or did this just sorta spontaneously happen on teh intertoobz? Seemed like it sorta "started up" in a month or so...

I mean, a year or so ago, about the only time I even thought of someone open carrying was when I'd go down to Georgia, and we'd have breakfast in Kennesaw... Yup. That diner. Hope the fellow is still doing okay...

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chris in va
July 7, 2008, 03:07 AM
I live in VA. It's definitely been going on for years now, especially with the VCDL doing their part to have the public understand there's nothing wrong with it.

TexasSkyhawk
July 7, 2008, 03:20 AM
Freedom?

Jeff

ptmmatssc
July 7, 2008, 04:02 AM
Hmm , wouldn't call it a "fad" , but rather a reawakening . "Fads" are things like hoop earrings and beehive hairdos.:D

Ragnar Danneskjold
July 7, 2008, 04:11 AM
A desire to stop being treated as unstable and eccentric by the rest of America. A desire for firearms in the hands of civilians to be seen as normal, just like fire extinguishers and seatbelts. It's not a fad. It's an exercise of freedom.

denfoote
July 7, 2008, 04:20 AM
Arizona has been an open carry state since 14 FEB 1912!!! :neener:

loneviking
July 7, 2008, 04:38 AM
Fad? Nope, just a return to our roots. Nevada, my state, has had open carry since statehood in 1864. OC sort of died out somewhere around 35/40 years ago as the 'norm'. The ever increasing crime rate is a big incentive to bring it back.

Why not CCW? Because it's tough to truly conceal any large handgun. That leaves you packing 'mouse guns' or trying to wear a 'Smart-Carry' in the 110 degree heat out west, and it does nothing for those of us comfortable with shooting and carrying big revolvers. My mainstay is a Colt Peacekeeper with a 6" barrel in a shoulder holster. Yes, I'm getting a CCW, but my only 'concealment' is going to be occasionally a vest whenever I'm around crowds.

I'm a gun owner, an American, with a protected right so I have a hard time seeing why I need to hide? Besides, it's the bad guys that are usually seen digging guns out of their pants. The folks OC'ing aren't the ones too watch out for!

kingpin008
July 7, 2008, 05:41 AM
I'm in agreeance with the rest here - I don't see it as a "fad" at all. If anything, it's a return to times past, where for one to conceal a gun on their person was seen as a cowardly act, one that indicated the aim of the individual doing the concealing to commit treachery. Gentlemen wore their arms openly, and proudly. Going back to those times, I think, would do us considerable good as a society.

jrfoxx
July 7, 2008, 07:07 AM
I read a few of the gun rags now and again, and havent seen any mention of OC in any of them at all, so I think the answer lies in some or all of the explanations given above. some places have been doing it fairly commonly all along, other have state org's that have gotten more active and encouraged more people, others have just decided they have had enough hiding and acting "ashamed" to be gun owners and carriers and have decided enough is enough, and to exercise thier rights, and start getting people used to the sight of regular, peaceful, law abiding Joe's with guns.

I have been doing it off and on mainly because I find it to be SOOOOO much more comfortable, regardless of what gun I carry, and I feel if I were to ned it, I could get to it a whole lot faster and 100% snag free without having to pull it out from under any clothing.The only time mine is ever concealed any more is if the weather is cool enough that I'm wearing a jacket, and it just happens to cover it somewhat.

RugerBob
July 7, 2008, 07:17 AM
I think some people open carry because you don't need a ccw for it.I need to take the class for my ccw and have not had the time to take the 12 hour course. So, the only legal way I could carry would be to open carry. Different states different rules.

Standing Wolf
July 7, 2008, 07:26 AM
90% of the time something becomes "important," it starts in one of the magazines...

Sounds like a quote from one of the increasingly slender, poorly written, expensive gun magazines that still haven't figured out potty-mouthing the internet isn't a form of competition.

OMGWTFBBQ
July 7, 2008, 07:32 AM
What prompted the current open carry fad?
I think it's more grassroots activism than a fad.

jahwarrior
July 7, 2008, 07:48 AM
it's a return to times past, where for one to conceal a gun on their person was seen as a cowardly act, one that indicated the aim of the individual doing the concealing to commit treachery. Gentlemen wore their arms openly, and proudly.

crap, beat me to it.;)

OC is legal in PA. you don't need a permit/license to do it, except for Philthadelphia, where you need a LTCF to CC/OC. i started OC shortly after the Dickson City/old country buffet incident. i didn't know it was legal, and i got tired of feeling like i was getting away with something, like a criminal; always worrying that i'd get made by a cop, having to be secretive around friends and family, etc....plus, it's hot out, now, and i'm tired of wearing button down shirts and other uncomfortable crap just to hide a gun. given the choice of carrying a mousegun or OCing my full size gun, i'll OC.

thx997303
July 7, 2008, 07:58 AM
I can't get me a Concealed carry permit, I'm only 19. So I must OC if I want to carry.

And I agree that it is an attempt at a return to better safer days.

Eric F
July 7, 2008, 09:12 AM
I am not sure it is eaven a fad. I am out and about frequently and travel several times a year and so far I have only seen 2 people open carrying. I thought there were more but they had badges, plain clothes cops I suspect so I dont count them.

Flame Red
July 7, 2008, 09:26 AM
I saw a petition going around here in Florida to 'allow' OC. Gosh I hope it becomes a reality! So I the thread originator is correct, but I will rephrase it. There is a revived interest in OC recently - and I love it!

moga
July 7, 2008, 09:50 AM
Why not CCW? Because it's tough to truly conceal any large handgun. That leaves you packing 'mouse guns' or trying to wear a 'Smart-Carry' in the 110 degree heat out west, and it does nothing for those of us comfortable with shooting and carrying big revolvers. My mainstay is a Colt Peacekeeper with a 6" barrel in a shoulder holster. Yes, I'm getting a CCW, but my only 'concealment' is going to be occasionally a vest whenever I'm around crowds.

I'm a gun owner, an American, with a protected right so I have a hard time seeing why I need to hide? Besides, it's the bad guys that are usually seen digging guns out of their pants. The folks OC'ing aren't the ones too watch out for!

+1

velobard
July 7, 2008, 10:00 AM
I can't get me a Concealed carry permit, I'm only 19. So I must OC if I want to carry.
Actually, you can get a ccw from Maine at 18. It really depends on where you live whether it will do you any good as their permit is only good in 11 states. Checkout handgunlaw.us

spwenger
July 7, 2008, 10:09 AM
1. Some people regard it as a political statement and a means to engage others in conversation about the RKBA.

2. At least in Arizona, there are those who fear that the availability of licensed CCW is leading to a decline in open carry, which requires no permit. This, in turn, could lead to legislative and judicial restriction on open carry, resulting in an erosion of the constitutionallly protected "right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the state."

I have one friend who makes it a point to carry one handgun openly and a backup gun concealed. My biggest concern with open carry is that it should be done with holsters that provide some security against a gun grab, preferably backed up with some training in weapon retention. (Yes, a man was killed several years ago in Phoenix, in an attempt to steal his openly carried handgun.)

ilbob
July 7, 2008, 10:15 AM
I think it is several things.

1. A reaffirmation of our right to bear arms.

2. Some times and places it is more comfortable to carry openly.

3. In at least one case, it was used to raise awareness of the RTKBA and got CC passed.

WayneConrad
July 7, 2008, 10:32 AM
Are you referring to the tide of open carry threads here on THR?

They are the result of advocacy. There are some people here using facts, logic and personal experience to counter the myths and fears of open carry. That's a bright flashlight in the closet the monster hides in.

romma
July 7, 2008, 10:47 AM
I wonder if anyone in CT has the Nads to try it... I know I don't.

ilbob
July 7, 2008, 10:50 AM
I wonder if anyone in CT has the Nads to try it... I know I don't.I seem to recall a thread at the opencarry.org forum that some CT state agency has recognized that the carry permit allows for both open and concealed carry.

TallPine
July 7, 2008, 11:14 AM
"Open Carry - a fine western tradition since 1873"

:p

romma
July 7, 2008, 11:39 AM
I seem to recall a thread at the opencarry.org forum that some CT state agency has recognized that the carry permit allows for both open and concealed carry.

I actually posted a thread last week here on that. I wonder if opencarry picked up on that? I wanted to pot it there but I never got a confirmation link sent to my email when I tried to register...

Either way, It would be neat to start hearing stories about open carry in CT.

I am not going to be the test case though.

waterhouse
July 7, 2008, 11:42 AM
A decade ago in VA I saw it fairly often. I think people there got fed up with the "you can conceal here, but you must open carry there" laws, so I'd see guys walking in the grocery store with 1911s on their hips.

It's illegal here, so I never see it except for rural towns where old ranchers seem to have an understanding with the local law.

bogie
July 7, 2008, 12:56 PM
Well, a year ago, you'd see an -occasional- thread discussing the topic, but folks were far more concerned with CCW, etc...

Now, it's like every other thread is OC this, OC that... Just wondering what started folks thinking about it.

TallPine
July 7, 2008, 01:07 PM
Now, it's like every other thread is OC this, OC that... Just wondering what started folks thinking about it.

Well, we finally all agreed that .45 is better than 9mm (or was it the other way around???) and we needed something else to talk about ;)

Personally, I want to know if anyone OC's OC ?

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 01:36 PM
I started open carrying in 1999 around the time I turned 21 and got my first pistol. I knew it was legal so I went ahead and did it.

Nothing bad happened, nobody freaked out, and the police never hassled me.

I had to speak up when I started reading posts on the internet (mostly rec.guns and the packing.org forums) from doomsayers who claimed that anybody who open carried would be simultaneously jumped by gang-bangers looking for a gun, arrested for terrorizing the public, and be subjected to the lamentations of outraged soccer moms.

I don't know for sure what started the current buzz about OC, but I know that Virginia's restaurant OC requirement and the Ohio open carry marches probably helped.

I like to think that maybe there's a broader social inertia building, of people that are realizing what liberty, freedom, and individual responsibility are all about.

dracphelan
July 7, 2008, 01:37 PM
It's illegal here, so I never see it except for rural towns where old ranchers seem to have an understanding with the local law.

We're working on it.

As other's have said, when you are talking about carrying in 90+ degree heat, it can be easier and safer to do so openly. I really hope we get open carry passed in the next state legislative session. Unfortunately, my state rep is not completely for it. But, he is pushing for allowing concealed carry on college campuses.

jfdavis58
July 7, 2008, 01:45 PM
I can't speak for anyone other than myself, so here is my reason for carrying a gun either openly or concealed: Crime.

Eight times in two years I've been at the scene of armed criminal activity. I survived every one by keeping a low profile and trying to remain unseen behind some large solid landscape or architecture. I was never the primary target.

Incident number nine changed everything. We have a fair number of door to door salesmen-mostly landscaping services. Funny how they always show up after I've finished planting a new tree or shrub or just mowed the lawn. And they never seem to have any tools-not a rake or shovel or even work gloves. Some walk, some ride bikes, some actually arrive in an (empty) truck. Normally I keep my eyes open.

One morning I started walking down to a neighbors house, 3 or 4 doors away. I wanted information about her rooftop carrier. Halfway there I heard a bicyclist approaching. Suddenly I was struck vigorously between my shoulder blades by this creeps outstretched hand. As I straighten up and turn to face him I heard "gimme your money, old man!"

I replied "I'm not an old man, and I ain't giving you (expletive deleted)".

He dug around in a pocket of his dirty cargo shorts and came out with a small stainless steel auto pistol, saying "Then how's about I cap your (expletive deleted)!"

Long story shortened: I gave up about twenty buck in a green bulldog clip and a couple Sacajawea dollars carried so I'm never broke. As he road away, he turned and said "Next time you better have more (money) old man!"

I guarantee one and all, that next time, I'll have a whole lot more to give him!

Wakal
July 7, 2008, 02:47 PM
Global Warming







Alex

CSG
July 7, 2008, 03:04 PM
I just got off the phone with a police sergeant I know. I live in Idaho, one of the most gun friendly states in the nation and asked about open carry in town. It's completely legal by state statute but he said you'd spend a lot of time spread-eagled on the ground as no one does it and they would respond to a call by a concerned citizen. He pointed out that the police don't know who you are other than a man with a gun. If you check out, you'll be on your way but there will always be a next time. My town has about 40k people and most people mind their own business but the only time you'll see me OC is in the country. Otherwise, my weapon is concealed.

It's really hard for me to believe some of what I've been reading about OC here and on other forums regarding no one paying attention. Hell, I'd freak out if I saw someone carrying a side arm in Costco and I'd move in another direction.

torpid
July 7, 2008, 03:09 PM
It's really hard for me to believe some of what I've been reading about OC here and on other forums regarding no one paying attention. Hell, I'd freak out if I saw someone carrying a side arm in Costco and I'd move in another direction.

I that person was simply minding their own business and shopping with a holstered sidearm, I'm curious as to why you would freak out?

CSG
July 7, 2008, 03:17 PM
I'd freak out because it's simply not done around here. It's out of the norm. If we met in the country (where I live), I wouldn't think anything of it because it is more common out here.

In all my travels, I don't know that I've ever seen anyone anywhere (talking about larger towns here) OC a firearm who wasn't in uniform or wearing a badge on their belt.

CountGlockula
July 7, 2008, 03:21 PM
What prompted the current open carry fad?

Heller vs. DC

CountGlockula
July 7, 2008, 03:22 PM
tap tap: double tap.

El Tejon
July 7, 2008, 03:27 PM
Gun memes are very strange, bogie. I blame hip hop.:D

RP88
July 7, 2008, 03:31 PM
Try concealing a glock or XD, and you'll see why. Also, CCW costs alot of time and a bit of money. Most people would rather not go through the process of waiting all that time to carry, so they go the open carry route until they either receive their CCW permit, or maybe one day feel like getting one.

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 03:35 PM
I just got off the phone with a police sergeant I know. I live in Idaho, one of the most gun friendly states in the nation and asked about open carry in town. It's completely legal by state statute but he said you'd spend a lot of time spread-eagled on the ground as no one does it and they would respond to a call by a concerned citizen.

Did he say what other legal and peaceable activities would get you in trouble? I'd hate to be tackled because I wore my hair parted on the wrong side or had the wrong color socks and someone called the police about it.

It's really hard for me to believe some of what I've been reading about OC here and on other forums regarding no one paying attention. Hell, I'd freak out if I saw someone carrying a side arm in Costco and I'd move in another direction.

Believe it or not, it's true. Whether most people don't notice or don't give a damn, I've never had anybody freak out on me.

Would you freak out if you happened to glance someone's concealed weapon?

Freaking out when confronted with a reminder that you're aren't as safe as you'd like to think is counterproductive (whether the reminder is a real threat or just someone more prepared than yourself).

It's far better to just recognize that potential threats are everywhere (though actual threats are rare) and deal with life with calm and rational preparedness.

waterhouse
July 7, 2008, 03:42 PM
We're working on it.

I hope it goes through as well. Purely coincidence, but I just dropped a check in the mail for TSRA this morning.

It's completely legal by state statute but he said you'd spend a lot of time spread-eagled on the ground as no one does it and they would respond to a call by a concerned citizen.

You should ask him what reason he would give to a court for making a person stop and spread eagle on the ground for following the law.

FireArmFan
July 7, 2008, 03:54 PM
Hell, I'd freak out if I saw someone carrying a side arm in Costco and I'd move in another direction.

Generally if I see someone open carrying, I assume they are a stand up person. When I think of a dangerous criminal bent on doing something wrong I don't think of someone open carrying. I think of a concealed weapon. Also, I don't have any stats to back this up but I view a criminal just shoving a gun in their waistband rather than using a holster.

CSG
July 7, 2008, 04:01 PM
You should come here and be the guinea pig, waterhouse. I'm just reporting what the local police said. Personally, I think OC in an urban era is foolish for a variety of reasons. I think concealed carry is much smarter. No need to advertise, element of surprise, and all that.

We have no issues with CCW's in this area and as a former LEO myself, I've had a CCW since I lived in California (where I was a LEO in the 70's). I've had my Idaho CCW since I moved here in 1994 and also have a Utah CCW. WE don't need to disclose to law enforcement that we are armed but carrying a gun, exposed on your hip, is not normal dress and I suspect not the norm in most cities regardless of whether or not it's completely legal. It doesn't surprise me that local law enforcement would respond appropriately to a "man with a gun" call.

I'm just saying that if you open carry in town here, expect to get noticed.

waterhouse
July 7, 2008, 04:11 PM
You should come here and be the guinea pig, waterhouse.

I have no reason to travel to Idaho, and no desire to be a guinea pig. If he is a sergeant you know, it seems like it would be much easier for you to ask him than for me to travel to your state.

If a cop I knew told me that his reaction to a law abiding citizen obeying the law would be to get them down on the ground spread-eagle, I would ask why he would do such a thing.

Bob R
July 7, 2008, 04:13 PM
You can go to this website, which has a seperate section for each state, plus the applicable state laws. I open carry in Coeur d'Alene all the time. I hve never been "spread eagled", but I have walked right by the police there at times.

Must be a different Idaho in the pacific time zone. ;)

http://www.opencarry.com/


bob

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 04:14 PM
CSG:

Read this post (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4605616&postcount=1).
Would you really freak out if you saw me (http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/J_M_Lambert/Guns/OCatcarshow.jpg) in Costco?

CSG
July 7, 2008, 04:22 PM
Folks, I'm just reporting what I was told and what I think about OC. I do it all the time out in the country but wouldn't dream of it in town. Sorry if you don't like my opinion or it agrees with yours.

I understand it's legal but so is CCW in 40 states and not all cops are aware of it. You can *expect* to get hassled on occasion by law enforcement. The only time I was was as an off-duty deputy sheriff in the Bay Area of California. I foolishly was exposing my sidearm while swinging a golf club in a department store. I was approached by two uniformed police (so much for my SA) but after showing them my badge and ID it was a short and polite encounter with a bit of chastisement for exposing my weapon carelessly.

MudPuppy
July 7, 2008, 04:23 PM
It strikes me as, i don't know, a little sad that you'd freak out over a legal carry of a sidearm, but a law enforcement officer stating that he'd violate your legal rights seems a non-issue?

I am a big fan of open carry because it show's the sheeple that yeah, normal people carry firearms, despite what certain politicians and media types say. We hide 'em like they're porn and it makes it easy for the unwashed masses to believe they're evil.

CSG
July 7, 2008, 04:24 PM
Jesse, I would wonder why you had a firearm in plain view and move away from you. You look like a nice guy and I've got two young kids myself but I don't know you and would wonder why you would carry an exposed weapon rather than concealed. Just the way I feel about it.

Ian Sean
July 7, 2008, 04:28 PM
On-going and very lively discussions going on in the PAFOA forums over OC (which is legal in Pennsylvania).

Take a look at the many threads...http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed-open-carry-121/

In a nutshell, if Open Carry is legal in your state, (to quote one of our fine PAFOA members)

We want and deserve the ability to legally open carry a firearm without harassment.
We want and deserve to have police officers that are trained well enough in the laws of their own jurisdiction so that we do not get harassed while NOT committing a crime.

In regard to the many hassles we have encountered OCing...doing such dastardly things like ordering pizza or eating dinner...:what: Another member wrote.....

"When officers decide to act in a manner that is inconsistent with the law and is a violation of their rights, members here (at PAFOA) stand up for themself and refuse to allow their rights to be violated...... The confrontations that occur and have occured are a result of the officers either not knowing the law and rights of citizens, or the officers not caring about the law and rights of the citizens. In the case of the first, it is poor training that causes the confrontation, not the OCer. In the case of the second, is it the arrogance of the officer involved that causes the confrontation, not the OCer.

If you truly feel that a citizen standing up for their statutory and Constitutional rights is provoking a confrontation, feel free to move to a nation such as China where no citizen would ever dare to stand up for their rights as I am quite certain the government would welcome you with open arms."

I myself am in full agreement with these statements.

I'm just saying that if you open carry in town here, expect to get noticed

I'm curious, assuming OC is legal there, "Get Noticed" how?

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 04:29 PM
I understand it's legal but so is CCW in 40 states and not all cops are aware of it. You can *expect* to get hassled on occasion by law enforcement.

That's true in some places.

Conversely, in many places it would be grossly out of the ordinary for anybody to be hassled solely for open carry. I happen to consider that a good thing and a worthy goal for pro-RKBA folks in all jurisdictions.

I plan to make a family road trip including Idaho in the next few years, and if I come through your area I will gladly be your guinea pig. I'm betting that despite your concerns and what the local police say, it will be quite uneventful.

AntiqueCollector
July 7, 2008, 04:37 PM
I won't tolerate police infringements of rights. Title 42 USC section 1983 is your friend in the event of illegal searches, seizures, arrests, or now with the Heller case, infringement of your second amendment rights. In Idaho it might not even need to go to a federal lawsuit like that, rogue police would probably be put in their place by the state courts. Sounds to me like if what CSG is saying is true it was more like just some cop who doesn't like people carrying (or open carrying) trying to frighten people out of it.

CSG
July 7, 2008, 04:38 PM
Just for giggles, I called Boise PD and spoke to their CCW person. They are completely aware that it's legal to open carry but as she said, "Expect to answer questions every few blocks."

I completely understand the desire or need to exercise our firearms rights but I am giving you my and two Idaho law enforcement agency's POV on the issue. I have no interest in OC unless I'm out in the country. I *prefer* to carry my firearm concealed.

I'm not here to stir up trouble or cause any hard feelings so I'll check out of this thread.

Cosmoline
July 7, 2008, 04:40 PM
Click the "show all" button. We're totally surrounded! LOL

http://www.adn.com/photos/wildlife/bears/story/454024.html

waterhouse
July 7, 2008, 04:41 PM
I understand it's legal but so is CCW in 40 states and not all cops are aware of it. You can *expect* to get hassled on occasion by law enforcement.

Are there any other law abiding activities that police in your area hassle people for?

They are completely aware that it's legal to open carry but as she said, "Expect to answer questions every few blocks."

Asking questions is one thing. They are free to ask, and I am free to answer or not as I choose. I am free to walk away. Ordering a person to get down on the ground spread-eagle implies that they are not free to go, and cops can't detain people without some sort of reasonable suspicion that a law is being broken (or has been broken).

I should say that cops can't legally detain someone without reasonable suspicion. They are quite capable of doing it without RS, but more and more this is leading to lawsuits against the cities that the cops work for.

AntiqueCollector
July 7, 2008, 04:46 PM
Just for giggles, I called Boise PD and spoke to their CCW person. They are completely aware that it's legal to open carry but as she said, "Expect to answer questions every few blocks."

I completely understand the desire or need to exercise our firearms rights but I am giving you my and two Idaho law enforcement agency's POV on the issue. I have no interest in OC unless I'm out in the country. I *prefer* to carry my firearm concealed.

I'm not here to stir up trouble or cause any hard feelings so I'll check out of this thread.

You're missing the point. It's simply unacceptable for them to do so regardless of their opinions on OC or whether or not it's commonly done. Their job is to simply enforce and follow the laws, not to hassle people who are doing nothing illegal. I sometimes CC and sometimes OC, and in neither case do I have any tolerance for police harassment.

torpid
July 7, 2008, 04:50 PM
...I don't know you and would wonder why you would carry an exposed weapon rather than concealed. Just the way I feel about it.

It's an interesting change in perception from earlier times in history where a weapon hidden away (instead of being worn openly like an "honest man") was cause for suspicion that one was up to no good.

Fast_Ed
July 7, 2008, 05:12 PM
I live in Wisconsin. Open carry is our only option to bear arms. We do not have CCW here. Everyone is afraid to open carry because of the disorderly conduct threat, and there is currently a man fighting confiscation of his firearm because the local DA has not charged him with DC for open carry, but won't give his gun back. The next couple of months may be important here. In the meantime, we don't have much choice. If we want to carry, it has to be open.

Fast Ed

Picard
July 7, 2008, 05:29 PM
I wish I could open carry. I would actually prefer it to concealed carry. I shouldn't have to be embarrassed of my rights. The more people open carry, the more police officers and the public get used to it and learn that it's ok. It's more than a fad, it's a trend in exercising our freedoms. I'm really glad that more and more people are picking it up.

I hope Wisconsin clearly allows open carry in the near future. When I go up there for vacations, I'll be sure to do so once it's clear that I can.

FCFC
July 7, 2008, 05:51 PM
I don't really see much difference between legal OC and legal CCW. The actual acts are almost identical: a citizen or resident carrying a handgun in public for his own reasons. Sure, there are some secondary aspects that are different but the impact of those secondary aspects are very small in comparison to the the main behavior.

There seems to be a lot of emotion involved in the subject. F'rinstance, I see the CCWers versus OCers track of (heated) discussion. Wholely unnecessary, in my view. It's not a choice of either/or. CCW and OC can co-exist.

Although both are basically forms of carrying a deadly weapon, and are subject to reasonable regulation, there are some obvious anomalies. In some states, for example, CCW is OK beginning at 21 years of age but OC is available at 18. That doesn't make sense. Look for legislation to make such situations consistent. Of course, there are two ways to resolve such an inconsistency--lower the age for CCW to 18 or raise the age for OC to 21. It's possible that a different age could be chosen for both but that doesn't seem too likely.

If OC is legal in a state then people should do it. If OC is not legal in a state, then people should advocate for it if they want it. That's what happened with CCW. It's a normal process of spreading an idea.

As to whether OC is a fad, if it lasts a long time then it cannot be a fad.

Someone mentioned the Heller decision as somehow affecting OC. I don't see the connection of Heller to OC. At least, I don't see Heller being favorable or unfavorable to OC. Or to CCW, for that matter.

Mainsail
July 7, 2008, 05:56 PM
Just for giggles, I called Boise PD and spoke to their CCW person. They are completely aware that it's legal to open carry but as she said, "Expect to answer questions every few blocks."
Ask them to put that statement in writing.

Do you not see the contradiction? It is illegal for the police to seize a person for lawful behavior. Not improper or inappropriate; illegal. The simple and easy way to deal with this is to have your attorney send them a letter to let them know that the rules of Terry apply, and that you will not tolerate “answering questions every few blocks".

I think what they’re doing is trying to frighten you in an attempt to keep you from exercising your rights. What is the proper action in such a situation, run and hide or stand up?

outofbattery
July 7, 2008, 06:05 PM
Most of my relatives live in VA and I honestly have never seen one person OCing,not even a single person who had to expose a CC piece in a restaurant that served alcohol.

I don't really believe it's much of a fad or trend,just that THR concentrates people who practice it or who would take notice.

IRT how people might react,I had a woman standing in line behind me comment to me "what are we coming to,people have to bring guns everywhere with them",and I was thinking my P239 was printing until I realized she was talking about the off duty cop in tshirt and shorts ahead of us.Judging by the lack of any other remarks or drama,I doubt too many people would take enough notice to care,even here in MA.

CSG
July 7, 2008, 06:06 PM
Like I said, I'm out of this thread. Lots of large talk on an anonymous internet forum. All the bravado is meaningless and typical of gun forums. I'll stick to the tech talk and let you internet warriors fight the good fight for OC. ;)

chubbmann
July 7, 2008, 06:08 PM
You're wrong, this fad of open carry rights as been around longer than we've been a state...

Our rights on display...

hamourkiller
July 7, 2008, 06:12 PM
Same thing that drove Rosa Parks not to sit at the back of that damn bus!

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 06:14 PM
IRT how people might react,I had a woman standing in line behind me comment to me "what are we coming to,people have to bring guns everywhere with them",and I was thinking my P239 was printing until I realized she was talking about the off duty cop in tshirt and shorts ahead of us.Judging by the lack of any other remarks or drama,I doubt too many people would take enough notice to care,even here in MA.


From Methuselah's Children by Robert Heinlein:
WHEN LAZARUS went to bed he stepped out of his kilt and chucked it toward a wardrobe which snagged it, shook it out, and hung it up neatly. "Nice catch," he commented, then glanced down at his hairy thighs and smiled wryly; the kilt had concealed a blaster strapped to one thigh, a knife to the other. He was aware of the present gentle custom against personal weapons, but he felt naked without them. Such customs were nonsense anyhow, foolishment from old women-there was no such thing as a "dangerous weapon," there were only dangerous men.


How long a period in history was it that it was so unusual for free people to be armed?

It seems to me like it was a brief period between The Great Depression (and the ensuing rise of American socialism) and the rise of shall-issue concealed carry laws.

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 06:20 PM
Like I said, I'm out of this thread. Lots of large talk on an anonymous internet forum. All the bravado is meaningless and typical of gun forums. I'll stick to the tech talk and let you internet warriors fight the good fight for OC.

Did you see the pic I linked earlier (http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/J_M_Lambert/Guns/OCatcarshow.jpg)? That's me (with my son) open carrying at a local street fair/car show a few months back. I for one practice what I preach, and I trust that many others here do too.

BTW, I just emailed my police chief asking his opinion on open carry. I won't be surprised to hear a response much like the one you got, despite the fact that 9 years of OC has netted me zero police interaction.

redneckrepairs
July 7, 2008, 06:31 PM
Ill just say that i grew up in an OC state and still reside there . I choose not to OC in public . As a side note i dont inflict such behaviors on others in public such as blowing smoke , spitting my tobacco juice, or urinating on others pants and telling them its warm rain . Carry how you will , and if i see you out on my ranch or areas where i work i will only ask to shoot a gun i never seen ( if you can carry one lol ) . Do it in town and my gut opinion says you despreatly need drama in your life . Sorry folks to me its a non issue . Carry when and how you will , but if you do it in an urban area and get unwanted attention then deal with it . As a side note they wont let me ride my green broke colt in downtown denver either , there is no specific ordnance against it that i have found but trust me , about the time i walk him between the deviders for the 16th st mall i start getting offical attention .

torpid
July 7, 2008, 06:35 PM
I choose not to OC in public . As a side note i dont inflict such behaviors on others in public such as blowing smoke , spitting my tobacco juice, or urinating on others pants and telling them its warm rain .

Now, those aren't quite the same things now, are they? :rolleyes:

FieroCDSP
July 7, 2008, 06:38 PM
I think a lot of it revolves around the up-swing in the gun culture, at least here in Ohio. OC has been a little-known thing in most areas, despite the fact that Ohio's constitution backs RKBA, and until the CCW laws went through, OC was the only way you could.

Now, it's a bit of an interesting thing here. CCW is widely permitted in businesses, as most of them realize it's a bad move to advertise that your customers are disarmed. If you OC into those same businesses, you might be asked to cover up or leave. The more knowledgable will just nod and maybe chat you up. The lesser so will worry what your non-gunny patrons will think.

Fact is, the more people that do it, the more accepted it will become. With the cops getting their ducks in line in regards to the law, OC is likely to continue to grow in popularity.

I havent really actively OC'd since I got my conceal permit. I'll put on my IWB before I leave for work and not worry about a cover garment, thus technicaly be OC when I stop for gas, but if anyone has even noticed, they haven't said a word or called the cops. Then again, it's not like I live in Cleveland. :D I can drive less than five minutes and see cows.

torpid
July 7, 2008, 06:46 PM
In the well-worn OC vs. CCW debates it's odd to me that OC folks don't generally have a problem with people who choose to CCW, but a certain mindset of pro-CCW folks seem to have huge issues with folks choosing to legally OC.

IMO it comes off more like an emotional dislike than a logical one, akin to someone having huge annoyance that another person would choose to eat/not eat meat in their presence. They don't like it, and they especially dislike it that others are free to do it anyway.

CSG
July 7, 2008, 07:00 PM
OK, one more post and *then* I'm out. ;)

BTW, torpid, your comment: "IMO it comes off more like an emotional dislike than a logical one..." fits me. I understand the desire, effort, etc. to OC.

The reason for this post is that I just got off the phone with our local Costco manager seeing as though I referred to Costco in an earlier post and asked her the policy for their store. She revealed she was a CCW holder, pro gun and they had no problem with open or concealed carry in their store. She said they were only a couple of times a few years ago where they had someone enter wearing an exposed firearm and while it alarmed a couple people on staff she explained it was perfectly legal and they follow state law.

However, what was crazy is she told me that Costco employees are NOT allowed to carry concealed on the premises or even have a firearm in their vehicle in the parking lot!! That's corporate.

ilbob
July 7, 2008, 07:09 PM
Same thing that drove Rosa Parks not to sit at the back of that damn bus!
An interesting example of finding the right person for the right case. Something like Heller.

Seems like there were all kinds of similar cases across the south. Many were even more offensive than hers, but her case was chosen because she was the defendant they wanted. A number of clients were supposedly dropped from consideration because they were unwed mothers.

torpid
July 7, 2008, 07:34 PM
The reason for this post is that I just got off the phone with our local Costco manager seeing as though I referred to Costco in an earlier post and asked her the policy for their store. She revealed she was a CCW holder, pro gun and they had no problem with open or concealed carry in their store. She said they were only a couple of times a few years ago where they had someone enter wearing an exposed firearm and while it alarmed a couple people on staff she explained it was perfectly legal and they follow state law.

Thanks for posting what you found out from the call here. :)
Maybe her bosses should hear that she politely and cheerfully answered your inquiries satisfactorily-she sounds like she's got a good head on her shoulders.

tpaw
July 7, 2008, 07:42 PM
it's the bad guys that are usually seen digging guns out of their pants. The folks OC'ing aren't the ones too watch out for!

Don't kid yourself, bad guys will open carry as well. How would anyone tell the difference between the good or bad guy? They'll blend right in with the rest of the crowd.

torpid
July 7, 2008, 07:51 PM
Don't kid yourself, bad guys will open carry as well. How would anyone tell the difference between the good or bad guy? They'll blend right in with the rest of the crowd.

And in a situation when nobody is OCing and the criminals hide their weapons, they stand out from the law-abiding CCWer how exactly?

It seems that either case, the criminal has a weapon, and still blends in with the rest of the crowd.

Though I have a sneaking suspicion that people with felonies might have less inclination to display their guns for the world to see than one who is legally cleared to do so.

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 07:54 PM
Don't kid yourself, bad guys will open carry as well. How would anyone tell the difference between the good or bad guy? They'll blend right in with the rest of the crowd.

I think it's going to be a while before you start seeing bad guys open carrying. Most of them seem disinclined to drop much cash on a holster; they see to prefer pocket or 'mexican' carry.

How do you tell the bad guys right now?
The only way I know is to see a guy doing something bad.

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 08:16 PM
The response from my local police chief on his feelings about open carry:
The carrying of unconcealed firearms is lawful conduct. No further comment.

rhubarb
July 7, 2008, 09:13 PM
I think Thomas Jefferson started the "fad." He didn't come out expressly on one side or the other of "open" carry, but I doubt it crossed his mind that open carry would be prohibited in favor of concealed carry.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." _Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body, and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. Never think of taking a book with you. _ Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Peter Carr 09-19-1785

And not explicitly on the topic of carrying a gun, but relevant to the restrictions on open vs. concealed carry:


I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it._Thomas Jefferson, 1791

F4GIB
July 7, 2008, 09:18 PM
Too many ED commercials.

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 10:16 PM
Too many ED commercials.

Pardon?:confused:

Some of us really do a disservice to our efforts to defend the right to keep and bear arms. Implying that carrying a sidearm (open or not) is a sign of sexual inadequacy or that the mere sight of sidearms is somehow rude or discourteous, is playing right into the antis hands.

There is nothing sexual or shameful about owning and carrying firearms. Don't help perpetuate the myth that there is.:banghead:

tpaw
July 7, 2008, 10:48 PM
And in a situation when nobody is OCing and the criminals hide their weapons, they stand out from the law-abiding CCWer how exactly?
It seems that either case, the criminal has a weapon, and still blends in with the rest of the crowd.

You got it. Some are quite bold and fear nothing.

FCFC
July 7, 2008, 11:04 PM
I think it's going to be a while before you start seeing bad guys open carrying. Most of them seem disinclined to drop much cash on a holster; they see to prefer pocket or 'mexican' carry.


I think you''re very probably right. At least, if you mean bad guy=person with felony or any other condition or history that would preclude ownership of a handgun. But what about some kinda bad guys who ain't been to the slammer yet?

What will happen when some bad characters from the hood, guys who have have never been busted (or who have misdemeanors which do not preclude gun ownership) and who are of age decide, "Hey, I can pack me a High-Point in a holster and walk right down the street. In fact, all of my frens who ain't been busted, we can ALL walk down the street packin'--and ain't nobody can stop us. We don't need no stinkin' CCW to be packin'! Let's roll!"

Will that happen? That would be quite interesting if it does. Just think of a bunch of guys, crooked caps, dreads, grilles, heavy chains, hoodies, WIDE pants....walking through the mall--all with guns on holstered hip. All legal like.

Our brothers in arms...

Actually, they wouldn't really need a holster.

herohog
July 7, 2008, 11:04 PM
I've open carried for years. It started in Louisiana, an open carry state that, at the time, was virtually impossible to get a CCW permit in. Years later, before Shall Issue, I DID get a permit but you would not believe what it took! My job had to require it (I had an FFL so I said "Speedy, you need a CCW permit!"), I had to have a $10,000 (signature) bond, I had to have the local Sheriffs office sign off (I had to shoot the same combat course the officers did for their range master. I scored a 95 out of 100 with a $99 Norinco Tokarev, He was NOT amused). November 7, 1994, I was issued permit 0375. That is 375 permits in the whole state of Louisiana! They were rare as hens teeth!

I have had CCW permits in 2 other states since then and still open carry every now and then. Sometimes I do it because I have to (restaurant) or because it's convenient or just for the hell of it.

tpaw
July 7, 2008, 11:29 PM
Just think of a bunch of guys, crooked caps, dreads, grilles, heavy chains, hoodies, WIDE pants....walking through the mall--all with guns on holstered hip. All legal like.

Sounds like productive citizens in our society to me.......:what:
You mentioned WIDE pants.....allow me to add something.....pulled down to their crotch....:eek:

whosyrdaddy
July 7, 2008, 11:45 PM
"Hey, I can pack me a High-Point in a holster and walk right down the street. In fact, all of my frens who ain't been busted, we can ALL walk down the street packin'--and ain't nobody can stop us. We don't need no stinkin' CCW to be packin'! Let's roll!"


In the alternative, they could just go get their ccw. That's the thing about "shall issue", it doesn't discriminate on skin color, baggy pants or music preference.;)

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 11:47 PM
What will happen when some bad characters from the hood, guys who have have never been busted (or who have misdemeanors which do not preclude gun ownership) and who are of age decide, "Hey, I can pack me a High-Point in a holster and walk right down the street. In fact, all of my frens who ain't been busted, we can ALL walk down the street packin'--and ain't nobody can stop us. We don't need no stinkin' CCW to be packin'! Let's roll!"


As long as they're not actually committing crimes, I don't really care if they do. I don't favor people losing their rights for the crime of looking scary.

If they are committing crimes, it doesn't really matter much if they're legally allowed to open carry or not, does it?

I guess if it actually happens and freaks people out enough, I suppose someone might start pushing for a ban on open carry. Is that what concerns you? It doesn't quite make sense to not exercise your rights for fear of losing them though.

Actually, they wouldn't really need a holster.

In Arizona they do.


From ARS 13-3102 (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/03102.htm):
13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions

A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
1. Carrying a deadly weapon without a permit pursuant to section 13-3112 except a pocket knife concealed on his person; or

...

F. Subsection A, paragraph 1 of this section shall not apply to a weapon or weapons carried in a belt holster which holster is wholly or partially visible, or carried in a scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons which scabbard or case is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage.

wyocarp
July 7, 2008, 11:52 PM
I'm of the opinion that if more people saw good people wearing guns that the general opinion towards guns would soften even if ever so slightly.

torpid
July 7, 2008, 11:59 PM
What will happen when some bad characters from the hood, guys who have have never been busted (or who have misdemeanors which do not preclude gun ownership) and who are of age decide, "Hey, I can pack me a High-Point in a holster and walk right down the street. In fact, all of my frens who ain't been busted, we can ALL walk down the street packin'--and ain't nobody can stop us.

And maybe these non-felons who are all of age might even -gasp- stroll over to the voting booth and exercise even more civil rights!

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