How would you handle this?


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Grandpa Shooter
July 7, 2008, 02:21 AM
I was in the Valley of Sin over the weekend helping out a friend. I got a call at 1:30 in the morning from my Son saying he had been chewed up by trying to stop a fight between his pitbulll and a rottweilller. He sounded really shook up which is unusual for him. We were staying at my friend's house which is maybe 6 or 7 city miles from his apt. When we got there he was shaking and very upset. His arms had multiple puncture wounds from the bites from his wrists to his elbows. He had washed the wounds out with peroxide and had ripped up a T shirt to staunch the bleeding. I took one look at the damage and sent my Lady out to an all night drug store to get medical supplies.

After she left he told me he was scared because the owner of the other dog had told him he was going to come after him with a gun and shoot him and the dog. I told him to calm down and relax while she was out getting supplies to patch him up. As she was exiting the parking lot I realized my pistol was in the door pocket of the SUV we were driving. My son had stated that he knew he could not defend himself the way he was shaking and considering the shape his arms were in.

I stood on the landing of the stairwell to block anyone from going up to his apt. Several of the neighbors in the heat of their upset tried to tell me they had to go up to "straighten things out". When I refused to let them by they mumbled and went back down to stand in front of their apts. The owner of the other dog came up and tried to get by me, and when I refused to let him by he gave a glassy eyed look, and I remember thinking, Oh, sh**t he's on drugs.

Someone called the cops and when they showed up, the people in the end apt flagged them down. From where I was standing I could hear the accusations flying right and left, along with demands that the officers had to go drag my son's dog out of the apt and shoot his a**. After listening to the stories and accusations, the officers walked down to where I was standing in the staircase and asked it I was the one with the dog. I said, "NO, the owner of the dog is my son. He is upstairs with bites up to his elbows and my Lady who has a nursing background is out getting medical supplies. We need to get him patched up and calmed down before he has to deal with this. Can you guys go back and calm this lynch mob down? One of them gave me a funny look and asked, "What do you know about this?" I said nothing other than what my son said before I came out here. Anything I told you would be hearsay"

They went back down to the crowd and while they talked again, My Lady came back with the med stuff and did a professional job of cleaning him up. I asked her to leave the pads and bandages off so the officers could see what damage he had from the other dog. From what I could hear they got conflicting stories from the people in the crowd. When they went back to their cars I walked down and asked them what ARS or City statutes they thought would apply in this case. One of them told me honestly, "We don't know, we are calling our Sargeant. I said, "Ok, when you figure it out we'll be waiting to talk with you". Another funny look from them.

They came up and talked to him, with me as a witness. They explained there was nothing they could charge him with due to the fact that the other guy's dog was not on a leash, and neither was my son's dog. (Yeah I know!) When my son said that he had been threatened they looked at him and asked if he wanted to press charges. He made me proud when he said, "No, we were both wrong and I know he was angry. He was just mouthing off. I'm just glad I had guts enough to stop the dog fight and the dogs didn't get hurt real bad." He said that standing there with multiple bleeding puncture wounds on his arms.

As the officers were leaving I asked them what station they were out of, knowing the answer in advance. When they answered, I said, "is John ----- still there? One of them answered, Yeah he was our training Sargeant. I replied, Yeah I thought so. You said and did all the right things. I figured it was him who rubbed off on you." They stopped dead in their tracks and really looked at me then.

If you were presented with that situation, and realized you had no gun, how would you have handled it?

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esmith
July 7, 2008, 02:30 AM
If i had no gun, which is my first line of defense, i would call the police. Even though i don't trust them with my life, there's not much else i could do other than that. I'd take a knife and conceal it in my pocket if things got really bad. That would be a last-ditch effort for defense though. I would try to settle the other guy down a bit, as you did. It's a good thing that didn't get too out of control.

Tell your son to see a doctor for rabies or other diseases. I hope he is okay.

BikerRN
July 7, 2008, 02:33 AM
I can't honestly tell you how I would've handled it, as I was not there nor faced with your situation.

It sounds like you handled everything fine though.

BikerRN

CWL
July 7, 2008, 03:14 AM
I would have gotten everybody out of that apartment. Seems like your son lives in the type of neighborhood where calling the cops isn't the first choice, so there probably wouldn't have been any repurcusions from him skedaddling.
No son & dog = no more tempers.

You wrote that the neighbors were upset with your son, does that mean he was the instigator of the argument/dogfight?

psyopspec
July 7, 2008, 03:29 AM
Buy a Hi-Point then spend the leftover money on a leash. Two dogs unleashed and fighting means no one's in the right to shoot the other's dog (unless the altercation took place on private property).

For the aftermath, it sounds like he's already got a home security system that could be vicious when necessary. Keep a gun in the house just in case. I know your son's arms are tore up, and I wish him a speedy and full recovery, but if he had to handle a gun to protect his life adrenaline would likely get him through.

loneviking
July 7, 2008, 03:46 AM
What would I do? I'd tell my son to get rid of the pit bull. They are nothing but problems and I've never seen one that could be trusted not to go berserk and chew something up.

kingpin008
July 7, 2008, 04:38 AM
Pitbulls are not inherently dangerous, any more than any other breed is. Anyone who tells you differently is either buying into the hype, or not training their dog properly. If anything, pit bulls are more friendly to humans than other breeds.

That said, it seems like you did all you could do from your descripton of the events. I disagree with Esmith, in that in no way do I consider a gun (or any weapon) my "first line of defense". I think I know what he meant, but to me, my first line of defense is my intellect, and my ability to be aware of my surroundings. You can do a heck of a lot more with words and a proper attitude (as you proved, Grandpa) than you can with any knife, gun, or other weapon.

csmkersh
July 7, 2008, 09:47 AM
I'm with BikerRN, I couldn't say how I would have reacted. But, IMO, you did good. BTW, did you train "John -----" ?

FCFC
July 7, 2008, 10:35 AM
I think the OP did very well. One doesn't always need a gun to take charge...

The son was really upstanding for not pressing charges and his stated reason was very plainly correct. Very admirable there.

I will say that some (a minority to be sure) dog owners are the most irresponsible scofflaws in our society. Two dogs unleashed might cause a problem, eh??? :mad::mad:

I'm rather surprised, and disappointed, that the LEOs couldn't find something to cite both dog owners with. Maybe the Animal Services guys will.

cruzan
July 7, 2008, 10:38 AM
Pitbulls are not inherently dangerous, any more than any other breed is. Anyone who tells you differently is either buying into the hype, or not training their dog properly. If anything, pit bulls are more friendly to humans than other breeds.

+1

Walkalong
July 7, 2008, 10:48 AM
Pitbulls are not inherently dangerous, any more than any other breed is. Anyone who tells you differently is either buying into the hype, or not training their dog properly. If anything, pit bulls are more friendly to humans than other breeds.
+2

I have been around hundreds over the last 30 plus years. They are some of the best dogs around as far as being good with people.

Now the people who have some of them on the other hand... :banghead:

and the morons who breed halfbreed mutts and pass them off as pits.....:cuss: :banghead:

If I had a gun? I would have done what your son did. Break them up. If mine was on a leash and was attacked by another dog that was not on a leash...hmmm.... I don't know...still may get in trouble... might just let Fido take care of buisness. ;)

lions
July 7, 2008, 10:58 AM
I think what I would have done differently is to call the cops sooner and do it yourself. It never hurts to be the first one they hear, that way they hear your side and don't show up thinking your son is the bad guy. As soon as I heard that the guy said he would kill your son I would have called the cops. I think you did a great job handling eveything overall and I'm glad everything turned out alright.

EDIT: Pitbulls are not inherently dangerous, any more than any other breed is. Anyone who tells you differently is either buying into the hype, or not training their dog properly. If anything, pit bulls are more friendly to humans than other breeds.

+100 My dad is a veterinarian and he always says he sees more mean chihuahuas than pitbulls. It is all how the dog is raised. All the bad press stems from people who raise their pitbulls to fight or to be aggressive in general. When one of those dogs bites someone it is usually really bad because pitbulls are very muscular dogs with strong jaws. They aren't mean because they are pitbulls, people make them mean because they are pitbulls. That said I just realized the OP probably isn't real concerned about the characteristics of pitbulls at the moment.

Grandpa Shooter
July 7, 2008, 12:17 PM
To give more info. is probably the right course at this time. My son who is 24 has been carefully trained (by me) to act out of reasoned thought, not emotion. He does have a 9mm and had it in his apt. I could have gone and gotten it (it is one of mine so I know how to use it) but decided defusing the situation was more appropriate.

I have learned over the years that a commanding presence is usually far more effective than a perceived threat. The young people deferred to me, which is what I was hoping for. If need be I can and will act decisively to counter a threat. I prefer not to whenever possible.

To answer the question above, yes, I did have a hand in training John ------ The local law enforcement people are woefully short on tactical training outside of the SWAT or Mayor's and Governor's protection units. I worked with John and some others on street reaction and situational awareness. The area my son lives in now is the area where I did CO rides.

He chooses to live there simply because the rents here are horrible and that is about all he and his roommate can afford. The young man with the Rottie disappeared the next day because he had an outstanding warrant and realized the police now knew where to find him. He did not call the police, one of the other tenants did. The only thing I could see that the young officers might have handled differently was to pull ID and run a check on both my son and the other young man. They obviously did not feel it was appropriate at the time. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. It is 20/20.

My son is sore and stiff, but otherwise appears to be doing as well as can be expected. I did go over and check the dog out and take it out on a leash, but surprisingly no one came out to challenge me. I would have expected from the level of emotion from the other night that someone would have. I guess some times it pays to be old and grizzled.:)

trueg50
July 7, 2008, 12:25 PM
Your son did the right thing, and even if he had a gun, he probably should have taken that same course of action.

I just got bit this weekend breaking up a dog fight( or rather fighting off the neighbors dog as it tried to kill my sisters puppy). I had a very quick open knife on me, and even if I had a pistol, I doubt it would have done much good, I really couldn't do anything but attempt to keep my self between the attacking dog. The attacks are very fast, very close in, and in your sons case, he would have also had to deal with civilians and other property if he had to take a shot. I (and the neighbors dog) got very lucky, after bitting me once or twice, and nicking my sisters puppy a few times, he withdrew, and we immediately left.

The best you can do would probably cover the attacker dog's eyes with a blanket, and once you get him off the other dog, keep the blanket between them. At this point a gun would be useful if you judge that dispatching that attacker dog is needed (he is either going to attack you, or is just too unsafe).

If any one has any tips on how I could have better handled the situation, I would love to hear it, getting a beloved pet attacked by a snarling beast is a scary situation, and something I would like to be prepared for in the future.

lions
July 7, 2008, 01:25 PM
As I mentioned above my dad is a veterinarian and he tells all his clients to tie a can of pepper spray on their leash. Only use it as a last resort to break up an actual fight. If you go in to break it up you will almost always end up getting bit. If you have to spray it you will get your dog too but that is better than your dog getting shredded. And it will save your hands and forearms. Most important is always keep your dog on a leash.

jerkface11
July 7, 2008, 01:43 PM
Which internet rule is it that says "Any time something negative is said about pitbulls their fanboys will mount a swift defense"?

TexasSkyhawk
July 7, 2008, 02:08 PM
Grandpa,

I waited 24 hours to post my response, and I'm glad I did. The former cop in me had a kneejerk response that was both wrong and inappropriate. I've read enough of you stuff here and elsewhere to know you're a rational, intelligent thinking and acting individual.

With that said, it doesn't matter what I'd do--it matters what you did. And you handled the situation very well--my hat's off to you.

I have learned over the years that a commanding presence is usually far more effective than a perceived threat.

I don't know of a cop one who'd argue with that.

Jeff

Grandpa Shooter
July 7, 2008, 02:08 PM
Hate to break it to you, but this thread is not about what breed of dog is involved. It was intended to be about appropriate responses in stressful situations. I could have left which breed blank and the point would have been the same.

Question is: Are you prepared to respond appropriately to a threat?

I am by nature and training, are you?

armoredman
July 7, 2008, 03:13 PM
I agree you handled it well, sir. And your question?
If you were presented with that situation, and realized you had no gun, how would you have handled it?
The same way I handle every day on the yard with 1100 inmates and only pepper spray - command presence. It has a tendancy to work IF used early enough. :)

Treo
July 7, 2008, 04:29 PM
If you were presented with that situation, and realized you had no gun, how would you have handled it?

I've heard frequently on this forum that if you wouldn't do it W/out a gun, you shouldn't do it W/ a gun.

I think that you handled this incident very appropriately, and I
don't see that a gun would have added anything to the situation.

It may have made you feel safer to have it, but if you got a sucessful result why throw a gun into the mix?

tpaw
July 7, 2008, 06:23 PM
If you were presented with that situation, and realized you had no gun, how would you have handled it?

I would have taken my son to the emergency room for an examination of the arm. Puncture wounds of any kind are susceptible to infections. He should have at least got a tetanus shot and a broad based oral antibiotic, twice daily for 5 days.

Grandpa Shooter
July 7, 2008, 08:20 PM
I would have taken my son to the emergency room for an examination of the arm. Puncture wounds of any kind are susceptible to infections. He should have at least got a tetanus shot and a broad based oral antibiotic, twice daily for 5 days.

Not doing something is just as hard as doing something in many cases. He is 24, not 14. While I can and will "make" a 14 year old do something I believe to be the best course of action, there is no way my son can be his own person and have me make him do anything.

One of the hardest lessons of parenting is knowing when to let go. He is a man now, not a kid anymore.;)

Rachen
July 7, 2008, 08:24 PM
Call the police. Inform them of the threats against your son and his dog too.

Last time I checked, these sorts of threats constitutes as felonies.

MedWheeler
July 7, 2008, 08:31 PM
With the possible exception of the name-drop at the end (cops hate this), sounds like you guys did fine. Kudos to your son for recognizing the "passion" in this, and understanding that, in the morning, it was going to look different to everyone involved..

makarovnik
July 7, 2008, 08:39 PM
I didn't even have to read half of your post. Call the police and report the incident. Keep your dog inside for a couple of days and get those bites looked at. Ever heard of rabies? Also keep the shotgun loaded and within reach. Even if you just go outside to work in your yard.

Grandpa Shooter
July 7, 2008, 08:48 PM
With the possible exception of the name-drop at the end (cops hate this), sounds like you guys did fine.

If I had in any way attempted to influence their actions by mentioning any previous or current friendship or affiliation, that would have been wrong and in some cases criminal. My comments are the end were my compliment to the boys for their handling of the situation. No harm done.

phydaux
July 7, 2008, 09:15 PM
I don't know how to do quotes,


"What would I do? I'd tell my son to get rid of the pit bull. They are nothing but problems and I've never seen one that could be trusted not to go berserk and chew something up."

+10K


"Pitbulls are not inherently dangerous, any more than any other breed is. Anyone who tells you differently is either buying into the hype, or not training their dog properly. If anything, pit bulls are more friendly to humans than other breeds."

BS!:banghead:

If you want the facts;

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf


phydaux

Grey_Mana
July 7, 2008, 09:52 PM
Pitbull off leash is asking for trouble. Say a 5 year-old runs up and pops it with a stick for no reason, and then gets hurt or dies. Your son spends the next 5-7 in jail, life falls apart, never be able to own a gun or have a good job again. Not worth it.

I don't know where you live, but in the People's Communist Republic of Maryland I would have advised your son not to come out of the apartment (showing his wounds + admission of guilt = ticket and dog's death). I'd expect both owners to get tickets for dogs off leash, huge fines for allowing dog fighting (I think it might even be a D class felony), and another ticket for getting hurt (ie if your dog leaves a mark on you, it assaulted you and that is your fault again). I'd have advised not talking to the cops right away.

Sounds like you did a great job handling the situation as it came; I wish I had a better command presence.

tpaw
July 7, 2008, 10:05 PM
Grandpa Shooter states:

Not doing something is just as hard as doing something in many cases. He is 24, not 14. While I can and will "make" a 14 year old do something I believe to be the best course of action, there is no way my son can be his own person and have me make him do anything.

If you were presented with that situation, and realized you had no gun, how would you have handled it?

In your original post, I don't recall you asking, or you son saying, that he would not go to the hospital.
Also, the police did not do their job very well. It was their responsibility to ask your son if he wanted to go to the hospital.
Finally, you ask a question, how would you have handled it? and I answered it. Perhaps not the answer you wanted to hear, but I responded to your question.........;)

PS- I hope all turns out well for you, your son and his dog.

Treo
July 7, 2008, 10:26 PM
Now that people are arguing about pit bulls this thread has jumped the shark

Grandpa Shooter
July 7, 2008, 10:48 PM
I don't know where you live, but in the People's Communist Republic of Maryland I would have advised your son not to come out of the apartment (showing his wounds + admission of guilt = ticket and dog's death). I'd expect both owners to get tickets for dogs off leash, huge fines for allowing dog fighting (I think it might even be a D class felony), and another ticket for getting hurt (ie if your dog leaves a mark on you, it assaulted you and that is your fault again). I'd have advised not talking to the cops right away.

I live in a free state not one of the enslaved Eastern state. Someone can correct me if they believe I am wrong but in this state, if there is no injured party, there is no crime. Both of the young men declined pressing charges, therefore in the eyes of the law, there was no "injured party". The dogs were not released by their owners for the purpose of having a dog fight, they both neglected to have a leash ON their dog.

Falls into the category of "No harm, no foul"

jrfoxx
July 7, 2008, 11:15 PM
I think you did very well, as is evidenced by the end results.good job to you and the son for using you brains (sadly, that trait is getting rarer and rarer).

As to how I would have handled it? I would hope the same as you. But, I'm not a dog person, and dont have one, and dont ever plan too, so my only dog encounter would be a dog attacking me, which is entirely different, but I try to avoid dogs liek the plague, so hopefully that never comes up either.

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