My head just exploded


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DontBurnMyFlag
July 7, 2008, 01:28 PM
My head just exploded from trying to wrap my brain around something completely irrational that was said to me the other day.

I take a martial arts class with a guy from Philadelphia. He grew up in the kensington section, which for those who dont know, is a very rough neighborhood. He's been in more streetfights than I have fingers and toes. Its why he got into martial arts. As a form of SELF DEFENSE.

So i start talking to him about CCW and other forms of SELF DEFENSE. He says that there is no way to defend yourself with a gun in philadelphia. He says that the only people who should carry guns are those in the wilderness protecting themselves from animals.

I said, well, the city is a wilderness with animals of its own. He says that if you are carrying a weapon, one guy will approach you while another hits you from behind and take your gun. :scrutiny:

He is dead set on believing that there is no way to defend yourself in the city with a handgun. However, martial arts is the answer to everything...?

ugh. I know its just one of those conversations where you shrug and walk away. Which I did. After my head exploded.

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Blackbeard
July 7, 2008, 01:33 PM
Did you ask him why cops carry guns? Do they often get their weapons taken by assailants?

alemonkey
July 7, 2008, 01:33 PM
He says that if you are carrying a weapon, one guy will approach you while another hits you from behind and take your gun.

And they wouldn't do the same thing to someone relying on their fists?

I don't get it either. But people aren't logical.

psyopspec
July 7, 2008, 01:34 PM
Some people's kids...:uhoh:

geekWithA.45
July 7, 2008, 01:35 PM
Do they often get their weapons taken by assailants?

Er...actually, cops get their guns snatched more frequently than armed citizens.

Partly, this is a function of how they carry. Partly, this is also a function of the fact that they're paid to go looking for trouble, they usually find it, and trouble usually objects to being found.

TexasSkyhawk
July 7, 2008, 01:36 PM
Never bring a fist to a gunfight.

Jeff

JesseL
July 7, 2008, 01:37 PM
Most people seem to have a few cognitive blind spots, concepts that they can't (or won't) bring themselves to ponder in a logical matter.

Just be glad he's not making your choices for you.

Vern Humphrey
July 7, 2008, 01:41 PM
Reminds me of a lad who said we don't need guns to defend our liberty, but if we did, we could take them away from the police and miltiary by "using martial arts."

SsevenN
July 7, 2008, 01:42 PM
My guess.


he WANTS to believe the only way to defend himself is hand to hand.

If he confronted the idea that one must take every advantage given, he would be less encouraged to stay focused on just martial arts.

IMHO it's his self defence mechanizism protecting his ego from a realization that he might not be as invincible as he thinks.

just some thoughts...

Husker1911
July 7, 2008, 01:45 PM
I'm mentally picturing Indiana Jones confronted by the big, sword-wielding fanatic................

Blackbeard
July 7, 2008, 01:47 PM
Of course, if the assailant takes your gun away, then he's in a bad spot because he has the gun and you don't. You'll just take it away from him.

misANTHrope
July 7, 2008, 01:50 PM
Of course, if the assailant takes your gun away, then he's in a bad spot because he has the gun and you don't. You'll just take it away from him.

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/images/smilies/lol.gif

TCB in TN
July 7, 2008, 01:54 PM
I guess that since guns are so in-effective that we just need to take away their guns and train the military and LEO's in martial arts and save sooooooo much money and make them even MORE effective! :rolleyes:

Yep, that makes perfect sense!

And as someone who used to do just a little bit of rough and tumble, and even tried one tough man contest, I can say from personal experience that there is ALWAYS someone who is a bigger stronger and tougher and now that I am in my late 30's I really don't want to take a chance on getting hurt by one of them!

La Pistoletta
July 7, 2008, 01:55 PM
Most people seem to have a few cognitive blind spots, concepts that they can't (or won't) bring themselves to ponder in a logical matter.

Just be glad he's not making your choices for you.

+1

Of course, if the assailant takes your gun away, then he's in a bad spot because he has the gun and you don't. You'll just take it away from him.

I LoL'd. The logic is just beyond comprehension. And it's got an infinite loop to boot.

Vern Humphrey
July 7, 2008, 02:05 PM
Of course, if the assailant takes your gun away, then he's in a bad spot because he has the gun and you don't. You'll just take it away from him.
But then you'll be in a bad spot, and he'll take the gun away from you. Then he'll be in a bad spot . . . Lord, when will it all end?

Blarelli
July 7, 2008, 02:08 PM
He says that if you are carrying a weapon, one guy will approach you while another hits you from behind and take your gun.

Just tell him that your .40 wushu is better than his wushu. You have to speak the language to get through.

misANTHrope
July 7, 2008, 02:08 PM
But then you'll be in a bad spot, and he'll take the gun away from you. Then he'll be in a bad spot . . . Lord, when will it all end?

Duh, when the police show up and shoot you because you're holding a gun.

Cougfan2
July 7, 2008, 02:10 PM
Does he have the special boots that let him climb walls? :neener::D

La Pistoletta
July 7, 2008, 02:16 PM
Which film was it where Bruce Lee said something to the effect of "why not just shoot him with a .45?"

wheelgunslinger
July 7, 2008, 02:16 PM
Gecko45 Reference! Sweet Cougfan.

Just tell the guy that even the Power Rangers carry weapons...




Though, this may be a good argument against open carry, it doesn't make sense to me.


LaPistoletta: That was Enter the Dragon

Vern Humphrey
July 7, 2008, 02:18 PM
Duh, when the police show up and shoot you because you're holding a gun.
Oh, yeah. I forgot. Guns are baaaad. If you have a gun, the bad guy will just take it away from you. Or you'll shoot yourself. Or the police will shoot you when they show up.

Yup -- gotta outlaw all them eeeevile guns.:barf:

30 cal slob
July 7, 2008, 02:30 PM
Which film was it where Bruce Lee said something to the effect of "why not just shoot him with a .45?"

Enter The Dragon.

grimjaw
July 7, 2008, 02:30 PM
He says that if you are carrying a weapon, one guy will approach you while another hits you from behind and take your gun.

However, as Hollywood shows, if you are only fighting with your fists you may be approached by as many as 100 assailants but they will oblige you by attacking only one at a time . . .

The situation he presented could be fatal regardless of whether or not you had the gun. If a group gets the jump on you, you're pretty much screwed and that's just the way of it.

jm

Bartkowski
July 7, 2008, 02:30 PM
If he is repeatedly getting into fights, shouldn't he try to get away from that area? Move somewhere or just don't walk around parts he knows to be dangerous.

Regen
July 7, 2008, 02:56 PM
I said, well, the city is a wilderness with animals of its own. He says that if you are carrying a weapon, one guy will approach you while another hits you from behind and take your gun.
Which is why I never let anyone get within 21 feet of me. Generally, I wind up walking down the yellow divider in the middle of the road. Don't want anyone to sneak up on me and get my gun.:rolleyes:

Back to reality here, if an assailant is very close to you a gun can be very difficult to use quickly. In my CCW class, we did an exercise were the target moved towards you from 3 yrds at 1.5 yrds per second (not very fast) and you had to draw and shoot the target before it got to you. Very, very difficult to do.

If you have a semi-automatic, and the guy crashes into you, it would not be unlikely to knock the slide out of battery and prevent you from firing while he stabs you or whatever. Revolvers are better in this situation, but still you don't want the assailant to get too close when you are defending yourself with a handgun.

DMK
July 7, 2008, 03:01 PM
My guess.
he WANTS to believe the only way to defend himself is hand to hand.Sometimes when folks have their own particular hammer, everything in the world looks like a nail.

Gun owners often have this problem as well.

Prince Yamato
July 7, 2008, 03:12 PM
He's the fist first version of the gunshop commando. Martial arts are great, but can only do so much. Unless you are a grand master, you're not going to be kicking everyone's ass with Hollywood ease. Even martial arts competitions are controlled environments. Most people are fighting in the same styles. Points are awarded on knocking someone down, not knocking them out or killing them.

In the real world, people fight very differently. People may take "performance enhancers" (be they steroids, meth, or cocaine). Hell, even Chuck Norris has bodyguards.

Your friend is trying to run his business. That's the same reason my Kung-Fu instructor kept telling me I had to learn all these "forms" before I progressed to the next level. I would have made a better ballet dancer than fighter at the end of 4 months. I quit and used the money I would have spent on Kung-Fu to buy a gun. In other words, keep the myth going, keep up business. I had to spend more time (and money) learning stuff I never would use anyway.

tuckerdog1
July 7, 2008, 03:13 PM
He's sure been in a lot of fights. Maybe classes on situational awareness would serve him better.

Tuckerdog1

Diggers
July 7, 2008, 03:35 PM
Sometimes when folks have their own particular hammer, everything in the world looks like a nail.

Gun owners often have this problem as well.

Ahhh...so true so true.

It sounds like this guy believes that martial arts is THE answer to dealing with trouble. AND that having a gun will make you a target, because people will want to steal it from you.

Interesting perception....and honestly I believe that there may be some truth to that in some places. BUT that’s the benefit of CONCEALED carry ....they don't know you have a gun.....right?

As was shown by Regen it’s hard to draw and fire in a short period of time. It seems many people deal with this fact by trying to keep people a safe distance away.....which is ridiculous in a city environment..... it can't be done. (Honestly those posts where people say they considered drawing down on a bum asking for change because they got too close make me wonder a little. :uhoh:)

So skill in hand to hand could be essential in some situations in order to MAKE SPACE so you can draw and fire if you need to. Or better yet, end the threat in that matter with no need for your firearm.

Nails can be hit with many types of hammers. ;)

Standing Wolf
July 7, 2008, 03:37 PM
Well, heck. Something's got to fill up the far end of the bell curve, right?

wally
July 7, 2008, 04:07 PM
Tell him: "Gun-Fu is my martial art!" :)

--wally.

Clerihew
July 7, 2008, 04:33 PM
Quote
Sometimes when folks have their own particular hammer, everything in the world looks like a nail.

Gun owners often have this problem as well.


The martial arts I was trained with was mostly open hand fighting with few strikes. This is the form I am most comfortable fighting with. But I know of ways to mix martial arts with a firearm, though I find it difficult to practice with anyone because anyone I know thats into martial arts is not into guns and vice versa...but a mix of different forms and use the most effective tools for the job...as a reference to martial arts think of a gun as a long pointy stick that the trigger sets off over and over again and all you need to do is line it up with the target. I could see some martial arts schools start teaching forms using firearms in addition to the rest of their weapons, all it is doing is brining hand fighting into the 21st century.

Also NEVER practice this with a real gun thats dangerous, get a plastic one thats made for this sort of thing (about 10 or 20 bucks).

Deanimator
July 7, 2008, 04:45 PM
Just say to him, "If it's that easy to take a gun away from someone, if they take mine, I"ll just take it right back!" :neener:

DontBurnMyFlag
July 7, 2008, 04:54 PM
it just seemed like an infinate loop of an argument.

i just needed positive responses from other like minded individuals to put my head back together. i'm still picking pieces of brain matter off my wall, but in a few weeks, the swelling will go down.

thanks guys.

Fast Frank
July 7, 2008, 05:04 PM
Martial arts are cool!

Personally, I practice the ancient art of powding.

I look across my sights, pull my trigger, POW! DING! It's a done deal.

60% of the time, it works every time!

Hypnogator
July 7, 2008, 05:25 PM
He says that if you are carrying a weapon, one guy will approach you while another hits you from behind and take your gun.
He's right -- If they know you're carrying!

File this under Open Carry Bad Idea, reasons why.

conw
July 7, 2008, 05:37 PM
I know it's a "discussion board" but there ain't much to discuss on this guy. His type appears frequently in the martial arts community, and occasionally in the gun community.

Basically these guys really like martial arts and use everything they can to justify their obsession. Like they buy into kung-fu movie hype. My steel cobra stance lets me fend off twenty armed ninjas with uzis...

It IS good for fitness, spirituality, self-knowledge, self-defense, sport, and fun...but it isn't the BEST form of self-defense (or fitness for that matter). If you get spirituality, self-knowledge, and some sporting fun out of it great. Clearly anyone who has advanced in the martial arts has a good deal of self control. But the fact is that some people justify their obsession with rationalization. Kind of like the guy in the firearms community who is just aching to have his home broken into or be assaulted in an armed confrontation. It's machismo, and silly.

EDIT: I don't mean to generalize. Lots of people in the MA community aren't as extreme as I described above. However, many of them are very reluctant to admit that their years of work might be useless in a real down-and-dirty situation with multiple armed attackers or whatever. They think of guns as the "Easy way out." Again, machismo.

You really shouldn't even believe that "martial arts expert" if he says he's been in tons of street fights. Just leave him alone.

DontBurnMyFlag
July 7, 2008, 06:28 PM
I was reading "on combat" by Lt. Col. David Grossman.

He stated that a local police department recruited a Mixed martial arts fighter for a defensive tactics seminar. The fighter was so conditioned for the fights, he could do it sleeping if need be lol.

So the SWAT team took him for a simunitions training exercise in a shoothouse. The fighter was so dead set on using his fists his entire life, he dropped the weapon and basically panicked in his first run through the shoot house.

This can be said for anyone without training in anything. But I thought it was relatively useful info.

JackBurtonJr
July 7, 2008, 06:36 PM
I have a friend who is a quite good mixed martial artist and a big ol' boy to boot. We were talking about self defense once and he told me the only time he got mugged he reacted by smacking the guy upside the head with the briefcase full of papers he was carrying.

The best weapon is the one at hand.

ArmedBear
July 7, 2008, 06:36 PM
Chuck Norris has bodyguards.

:D

GingerGuy
July 7, 2008, 06:37 PM
His job is to sell his method of defense. There is no way he would recommend a CCW when he has devoted his life to the martial arts.:D

jahwarrior
July 7, 2008, 07:04 PM
i used to have that mindset. i grew up, literally, studying one martial discipline or another. my parents, brothers, cousins, we all did. from kindergarten on, i was prepped to defend myself. it helped on numerous occasions, but it also came with a hindrance: the naivete, or arrogance, that many martialists have concerning firearms. i had it, until i was held up at gunpoint. all of my training, all the "warrior" philosophy, all the honorable intentions, they all counted for nothing. i took a long, hard look at everything i'd learned, and realized that i had been ignorant. i soon came to see that guns were no different than knives, or swords: they were just tools, to dfend, to equalize, to serve life. i came to embrace the notion that learning to handle a gun was the next step in martial training. i now go to the range, go to seminars, and read books on gunplay as religiously as i went to the dojo to study aikijutsu, kenjutsu, iaijutsu, kali, boxing, and wing chun.

SG Merc
July 7, 2008, 07:09 PM
Martial arts instructors make their money training, not from commissions on firearms purchases.

The antagonism is his form of ensuring job security.

Claymore1500
July 7, 2008, 07:42 PM
I used to work with a guy who was a third degree black belt in TKD, Also an instructor in the same (part time).

He was extolling the benefits of MA to me once, Telling me how easy it was and that HE doesn't have to go and get his protection, I just looked him in the eye and said.

"Yea, But mine works from the back seat of a car". He got the message and shut up.

Blue .45
July 7, 2008, 07:43 PM
People sometimes fail to consider, we don't get younger or stronger as time goes by. At some point, we all have to find an equalizer of sorts. I for one, cannot wrestle as good as I did ten years ago.

James T Thomas
July 7, 2008, 07:48 PM
My experience in life tells me that "jahwarrior" comes closer to the truth than most others.

Your martial arts friend is arrogant! He or she has taken a high and mighty
-ethical position that leaves all the logic and argumentation and even the facts of reality down at the bottom of the high hill that they stand upon.

I'm supposing for the sake of your friendship and their safety too that you will continue to persuade them to consider their viewpoint, but do not become upset if there is absolutely no reaching them.

May I quote an ancient book of wisdom that has absolute truth in it?

"Speak not in the ears of a fool; for he will despise the wisdom of thy words."
"Answer -not, a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."
-"answer a fool -according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit."

bukijin
July 7, 2008, 07:57 PM
Shooting is a martial art.

I think weapon retention is a lot easier than weapon disarming.

Thernlund
July 7, 2008, 07:57 PM
He is dead set on believing that there is no way to defend yourself in the city with a handgun. However, martial arts is the answer to everything...?

Depending on a few factors, he may be right to some degree. In a very bad neighborhood that you are completely unfamiliar with, gun or no gun I expect that you are already at a disadvantage. If your attackers are street-smart enough, I think they'd have a few solid ideas on how to disarm and then beat the poop out of some yuppie with a Glock with no collateral damage.

There are probably some neighborhoods where the locals could beat the most bad-assed Delta/SEAL/Ranger/Recon guy to within an inch of his life without even dropping the ash off their cigarette.

Neither a gun nor training is a magic talisman that keeps evil away. Avoidance is key.


-T.

Regen
July 8, 2008, 03:48 PM
Chuck Norris has bodyguards.
They are not really bodyguards, they control access to Chuck Norris. If you can't defeat his bodyguards, you're not worth Chuck's time.:neener:

LightningJoe
July 8, 2008, 04:48 PM
Don't talk to stupid people. How do you think they got that way?

mbt2001
July 8, 2008, 04:56 PM
"Even when called out by a single foe, remain on guard, for a host of enemies always surround you." Morihei Ueshiba, The Art of Peace

It is incredibly ignorant to assume that martial arts can do anything beyond help you to understand the nature of conflict. No one wins a fight and, as you rightly pointed out, the "city" has animals of it's own. In Japan and China, martial artists devoted their lives to their craft. Daily practice, meditation, excercise, again and again. Did they go to war emtpy handed?? No, they didn't.

Cliff47
July 8, 2008, 05:04 PM
I'm sorry, my head just imploded. Glad I got past Monday...

Odd Job
July 8, 2008, 05:05 PM
Of course, if the assailant takes your gun away, then he's in a bad spot because he has the gun and you don't. You'll just take it away from him.

I just laughed like a zebra on novacaine. Thanks for that.

Macpherson
July 8, 2008, 05:06 PM
What's good is training that incorporates martial arts and firearms. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i7N6Y7OYwI) has some good examples of using fighting techniques to buy time to draw a firearms, or to counter someone with a knife/firearm. I admire Krav Maga because of its simplicity and practicality; there's nothing fancy or stylish about it, but it gets the job done.

El Tejon
July 8, 2008, 05:09 PM
From my many years in martial arts, I know this type, don't. They are deceiving themselves so they are feel better about the time they are spending in their art or do not want to "open that door". If you study martial arts then you know about the Boxer Rebellion and what happens when people deceive themselves.:D

At 38, martial arts are for fellowship and defeating myself (e.g. physical fitness). The only fighting I am doing is fighting the "desk and telephone warrior" that I have become and that is the only fight I am looking for.:D

mbt2001
July 8, 2008, 05:18 PM
People see Martial Power / Skill as an end. If I take Karate long enough, I will have "power". They fail to grasp (and in doing so never reach any kind of enlightenment) that in WANTING to ACHIEVE our goal, we completely miss it.

It is only when we quit WANTING that we can gain inner peace and insight.

"To do one thing, at the expense of all things is to lose the spirt of the thing itself." The book of 5 rings

Sorry to sound so fluffy, but anyone that is taking martial arts to "learn how to fight" is wasting their time and money. Take that idiot on the link doing Krav Maga... He is leading with his head, has no guard at all and is purposefully (it seems) taking the arc from his punches and elbows.

He is "learning how to fight".... I then refer to my other post.... You have to understand the nature of conflict before you can win

So... errrr.... I agree with El T. As usual. :neener:

Orthonym
July 8, 2008, 05:26 PM
What Halftime and El Tejon said. I'm getting on in years and was never all that big and mean to start with.

Sorry, Mr. Bad Guy, I cain't afford to spar with you, I'm just a little guy who's also old; I'm afraid I'm going to have to kill you.

.cheese.
July 8, 2008, 06:02 PM
If your head just exploded, how are you able to type?

I'm calling shenanigans on your claim. Provide verifiable proof that your head exploded, and we'll take it from there.

neviander
July 8, 2008, 06:53 PM
Nobody has mentioned it yet, so I will.

"Yo homie, is that my briefcase?" *push gun away, pull your own* BAM!, BAM! *turn to other attacker* BAM!, BAM!..BAM! The last one he put in the already downed attackers head was probably unnecessary, but you see my point.

That little bit of gun-fu that Tom Cruise portrayed was totally plausible.

Kind of Blued
July 8, 2008, 07:17 PM
Tell him to meet you in your backyard wearing pads.

Show up with a paintball gun.

See where things go from there...

Deanimator
July 8, 2008, 07:50 PM
Shooting is a martial art.
Teppojutsu and or hojutsu.

falkon
July 8, 2008, 08:07 PM
he probably got his CCW denied or revoked.

h-word
July 8, 2008, 08:38 PM
I have a friend who questioned why I carried a gun for self defense. She thought I should learn Kung Foo...

Realbigo
July 8, 2008, 08:50 PM
Now this is interesting. I actually just returned my High School Tan Soo Do teacher's 1911 after replacing a couple of springs and the firing pin for him. He asked me to do it because he's so busy these days teaching disarms.:neener:

conw
July 11, 2008, 03:20 AM
I have to respectfully disagree with everyone who said that his "job security" would be his objective here.

More like "self esteem." He's just an absolutist and can't stand to be wrong.

Aside from that, learning martial arts AND basic handgun operation is much more effective than one or the other...duh...

There are probably some neighborhoods where the locals could beat the most bad-assed Delta/SEAL/Ranger/Recon guy to within an inch of his life without even dropping the ash off their cigarette.

IMO no one is good enough to fight in an uncontrolled setting without really NEEDING to fight...hell, yes, there are ghettos and such where a "trained" person, even trained for war, will get killed. It doesn't necessarily take training to defeat training, it just takes training to stay consistently alive while completing the task at hand...then getting the hell out of there. All you have to do to kill someone or beat them is be crazy and not care. You don't want to be around crazy people who don't care, no matter who you may be.

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