another gun cleaning death (two actually)


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Harvster
July 8, 2008, 03:31 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,377861,00.html

From the associated press



ORLANDO, Fla. — A pregnant woman and her unborn child have died in central Florida after being accidentally shot by the woman's husband, authorities said.

Yailen Abreu, 23, and the fetus died Tuesday at Orlando Regional Medical Center.

Orange County sheriff's officials said Abreu was hit in the stomach while her husband was cleaning his gun late Monday at their Orlando-area home. She was six months pregnant.

The bullet struck 39-year-old Enio Abreu in the hand before hitting in his wife, authorities said.



I will never understand how you clean a loaded gun.

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ByAnyMeans
July 8, 2008, 03:37 PM
I can never understand it either(sp). I have trouble with this to because if your foolish enough to do it hopefully you don't die and learn your lesson. I'm sure this person would be much more careful considering he shot his hand. Unfortunatley you get innocents being hurt.

I suspect alot of "gun cleanings" in reality are people messing with their gun and have a ND.

Nagant
July 8, 2008, 03:43 PM
Whenever I hear of someone "accidently" shooting someone while "cleaning their gun" I get a very dubious feeling... from my standpoint, how could this happen? The first thing you do is unload the gun.... not a hard concept....

CountGlockula
July 8, 2008, 03:49 PM
No muzzle discipline.

psyopspec
July 8, 2008, 03:50 PM
This is a senseless tragedy. Has he "learned his lesson?" I assure you he'll be thinking about this for the rest of his life.

30 cal slob
July 8, 2008, 03:53 PM
read last para.





http://www.wftv.com/news/16817263/detail.html

Husband Says He Was Cleaning Gun When Pregnant Wife Was Shot

POSTED: 6:31 am EDT July 8, 2008
UPDATED: 1:10 pm EDT July 8, 2008


ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- An Orange County pregnant woman shot in the stomach died Tuesday morning. Investigators said her husband told them he accidentally shot her Monday night with a single bullet while cleaning his gun. The bullet also killed her unborn baby.

People living in the Isle of Pines subdivision won't soon forget the shooting that killed a 22-year-old pregnant woman and her unborn child.

When deputies arrived at the home of 39-year-old Enio Abreu on Nell Drive near Narcoossee Road and SR-417 (see map), he told them he accidentally shot his wife, Yailen, while cleaning his firearm. She was six months pregnant.

Neighbor and gun owner Joseph Lowe said the tragic incident could have been prevented.

"Before I even pick it up, the first thing I do is check the magazine to make sure that it is empty. I try to keep the breech open while I'm cleaning it, that way it can't fire," he said.

According to the sheriff’s office, only one bullet discharged. It first struck the husband in the hand and then his pregnant wife in the stomach. She was airlifted to Orlando Regional Medical Center, where she and her unborn baby died.

Neighbors said the subdivision is a very close-knit community where everyone knows each other. No one, though, appeared to know much Tuesday about the couple who lived where the fatal shot was fired.

"Very quiet guy, soft spoken, not tremendously outgoing. I didn’t have long conversations with him. Seemed like a very nice fellow," said neighbor Bob Ballatine.

Enio Abreu was previously charged with a felony for forging a passport in 1992 and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon in 1997. A few years later he was caught with a gun while soliciting a prostitute. The crimes were committed in Miami Dade County.

FCFC
July 8, 2008, 03:56 PM
from my standpoint, how could this happen? The first thing you do is unload the gun.... not a hard concept....

No, that's the first thing you do. And that you do ....and that you over there do....

Somewhere in the population of all gun cleaning events (millions of events), there comes a time when he doesn't do it....and another time when he doesn't do it either...and of those guys who don't do it.....a few will then also pull the trigger....

Of course it can happen. It's very predictable. Clean a couple hundred million guns a year and it is guaranteed to happen. To him. And him, too.

Next year, same thing.

DFW1911
July 8, 2008, 03:56 PM
Guns going off while being cleaned always confuse me.

If it's an auto, maybe he left a loaded magazine in it, then chambered a round when he was reassembling it.

With a revolver he either missed a round in the cylinder or left some rounds in it to give it a "quick cleaning."

I bet he thought he was dry-firing when he pulled the trigger. Now he has to think about the outcome of his actions, which he'll probably do every day for the rest of his life.

damien
July 8, 2008, 04:13 PM
....

damien
July 8, 2008, 04:15 PM
Marrying a three-times convicted felon turns out to be a stupid move. Who could have foreseen something bad happening to this woman?

Rugerlvr
July 8, 2008, 04:20 PM
I certainly hope he's been arrested on weapons charges. Felon possessing a gun and all.

Mr White
July 8, 2008, 04:28 PM
Sounds very fishy. What a convenient way to get out of an unwaned marriage AND get rid of an unwanted child. And all it cost him is a bullet wound to the weak hand.

Hopefully it'll cost him a lot more than that with ANOTHER posession by a convicted felon conviction hopefully in his future.

My money's on a lot more facts being uncovered in this case by the time it reaches trial.

Cosmoline
July 8, 2008, 04:30 PM
My radar goes up whenever I hear that excuse. It no doubt does actually happen from time to time, but it's also a great way to cover a suicide or murder.

skinewmexico
July 8, 2008, 04:32 PM
Wonder if it was a Glock. One of our local cops shot his supervisor in the cleaning room here a few months ago.

FCFC
July 8, 2008, 04:36 PM
Wonder if it was a Glock. One of our local cops shot his supervisor in the cleaning room here a few months ago.

Is GLOCK the only handgun design that requires the trigger to be pulled to disassemble the gun?

Do M&Ps or XDs, for example, require it?

usmarine0352_2005
July 8, 2008, 04:38 PM
Sounds very fishy. What a convenient way to get out of an unwaned marriage AND get rid of an unwanted child. And all it cost him is a bullet wound to the weak hand.

Hopefully it'll cost him a lot more than that with ANOTHER posession by a convicted felon conviction hopefully in his future.

My money's on a lot more facts being uncovered in this case by the time it reaches trial.


Well, I discussed this on another site and it's unlikely that the guy is smart enough to shoot through his own hand to fool police/prove that it's not pre-meditated murder. It also takes guts.


This is what I think:

I wonder how many "negligent discharges" are called "cleaning accidents" when the reporting party calls 911.

.

usmarine0352_2005
July 8, 2008, 04:44 PM
My radar goes up whenever I hear that excuse. It no doubt does actually happen from time to time, but it's also a great way to cover a suicide or murder.


Lot of conspiracy theorist on here, lol.

I think "negligent discharges" happen quite often and are covered up. I can say, it's actually been done by someone I know, twice.

Would anyone think that the youtube FBI agent who shot his "Glock FOWDY" in the school classroom really intentially meant to do it?


.

wyocarp
July 8, 2008, 04:51 PM
I guess questions need to be asked, but it can and does happen just this way. When I was a teenager, I was cleaning the guns after a hunting trip. I ran my hand down the rifle with a cleaning rag and bumped the trigger. I guess in the excitement of getting a nice moose, a round was left in the chamber and somehow that rifle wasn't checked while packing up the rifles to come home even though it was part of the ritual.

The 30-06 rifle went off, probably just barely missing my head and going up through the floor joist and into my dresser in my room. The bullet stopped in my dresser, about 8 inches away from a baby sleeping on the floor in room that my mother watching for someone.

Accidential discharges do happen and I would venture to say that they happen more often than people on here admit.

I wonder how many "negligent discharges" are called "cleaning accidents" What's the difference?

M1911
July 8, 2008, 04:53 PM
3 time felon has an "accident" while cleaning his gun, killing his pregnant wife? Color me skeptical.

blackcash88
July 8, 2008, 04:55 PM
Is GLOCK the only handgun design that requires the trigger to be pulled to disassemble the gun?

Do M&Ps or XDs, for example, require it?

Kahr pistols do.

mbt2001
July 8, 2008, 04:58 PM
If you follow even 1 of the four rules, no one will die. In order for people to die all of the 4 rules had to be violated at the same time....

Projekt
July 8, 2008, 05:04 PM
Not to mention cleaning it where the barrell happens to be pointing towards her stomach..... And to top it off why in the world would you pull the trigger, even knowing its a cleared chamber, with your hand in the way of the barrell.

makarovnik
July 8, 2008, 05:05 PM
I hope he goes to jail for manslaughter. I also doubt the story about the gun going off while cleaning it. I wonder if this may have happened while he was simply wiping it down. I also wonder if he shot them on purpose and just claimed he was "cleaning it". Anyway, this is sometimes the price we pay for freedom.

My prayers are with the family.

ColinthePilot
July 8, 2008, 05:06 PM
I don't get this, but I always field strip my guns to clean them, so every time I clean a gun, it is mechanically incapable of firing. I also clean from the breech, so theres no way it can be chambered. I had an almost-scare the other day. I came home from a month long trip and was getting ready to go shoot, pulled my pistol out of the case, went to clear it, and found the chamber empty, but the mag full. I had forgotten there was one in the pistol. No big deal, but it shows the importance of clearing every gun, every time.

wyocarp
July 8, 2008, 05:08 PM
I guess I told my story to say that a gun can go off without a deliberate act of pulling the trigger while wiping a gun down. I'm not saying this guy is without guilt, but it could easily happen no matter what his past is.

WNC Seabee
July 8, 2008, 05:11 PM
My XD, circa 2005, requires that you pull the trigger to disassemble. Lock the slide back, turn the take-down lever, release the slide, pull trigger, remove slide.

I understand that the new XDm does not require this.

ColinthePilot
July 8, 2008, 05:19 PM
Most bolt guns I know require the trigger to be pulled to disassemble, but at that point, the bolt is open and moving backwards, instead of the slide moving forwards and possibly chambering a round like a handgun

Bill2e
July 8, 2008, 05:20 PM
I feel for the womans family.

Bad part of town, 3 time convicted felon with a firearm. He's 39, She's 22. I can see how that could be taken to sound a little fishy.

Senseless death, yes. Would more laws change the out come? No, but that is one more stat for the banners to use.

THe real question is why was this man even out of jail? Enio Abreu was previously charged with a felony for forging a passport in 1992 and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon in 1997. A few years later he was caught with a gun while soliciting a prostitute. The crimes were committed in Miami Dade County.

jnyork
July 8, 2008, 05:36 PM
This story has a distinct bad odor to it and I'll wager the truth has yet to come out.

One thing I dont understand, how is it possible for him to even have had a gun in his posession, isn't there a Federal law that prevents felons from having firearms??:scrutiny::rolleyes:

cambeul41
July 8, 2008, 05:40 PM
Is GLOCK the only handgun design that requires the trigger to be pulled to disassemble the gun?

Do M&Ps or XDs, for example, require it?

M&Ps and standard XDs require that the slide be locked open before the take-down lever is rotated, so it is much more likely that they are given one last inspection for unloadedness before the slide is closed and the trigger is pulled. In addition, the M&P requires that a wire (lever?) inside ejection port be moved. This practically forces one to visually check whether the chamber is empty and magazine has been removed.

mbt2001
July 8, 2008, 05:42 PM
I guess I told my story to say that a gun can go off without a deliberate act of pulling the trigger while wiping a gun down. I'm not saying this guy is without guilt, but it could easily happen no matter what his past is.

No. The gun can easily DISCHARGE, but people only die if he:

- Didn't treat the gun as loaded
- Didn't keep the muzzle in a safe direction
- Didn't keep his finger off trigger
- Didn't check is his "safe direction" was indeed safe

So, while anyone can "paint" someone with a loaded gun, or have a ND / AD, only an idiot will kill someone by painting them with bad trigger control, while loaded with no cover....

CWL
July 8, 2008, 05:45 PM
Another preventable tragedy.

I don't think he would've shot himself if he planned on killing his wife & child.

Probably was fooling around with a loaded pistol.

alistaire
July 8, 2008, 05:47 PM
Most bolt guns I know require the trigger to be pulled to disassemble, but at that point, the bolt is open and moving backwards, instead of the slide moving forwards and possibly chambering a round like a handgun

The U.S. Krag Jorgenson and the No 4 Mark 1 Lee-Enfield DO NOT require the trigger to be pulled to disassemble the piece for cleaning.

blackcash88
July 8, 2008, 05:52 PM
One thing I dont understand, how is it possible for him to even have had a gun in his posession, isn't there a Federal law that prevents felons from having firearms??

What do you not understand about the saying, "When they outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"?

Criminals will ALWAYS be able to get guns illegally and that is a MAJOR argument for the pro-gun agenda. Why should the good people have to disarm?

I was talking to a former co-worker about guns and he's from NYC. He told me he knew several people who bought/sold guns from the trunk of their cars in NYC. :rolleyes:

Sistema1927
July 8, 2008, 06:11 PM
Sad.

Sad for this woman and her family, and sad for us due to the fact that it once again shows gun owners as buffoons.

blackcash88
July 8, 2008, 06:46 PM
it once again shows gun owners as buffoons.

Gun "owner"? Calling this FELON a gun owner is like calling a rapist a "lover".

But, in some small sense, you're right. The stupid masses will ignore the illegal gun ownership part and automatically apply it to EVERY gun owner. :rolleyes:

.cheese.
July 8, 2008, 07:09 PM
I will never understand how you clean a loaded gun.

Same here. I have plenty of Glocks too which require pulling the trigger, but I still don't understand how somebody would go to clean their gun and not check the chamber/mag-well before doing so.

Even more bizarre was a local doctor whom I know who shot himself in the hand while cleaning his revolver, although that one I think was intentional to get on disability.

Very sad.... and entirely preventable.

SN13
July 8, 2008, 07:52 PM
You have to pull the trigger on XDs but you'd REALLY have to be stupid to pull the slide back, lock it open, twist the lever up, drop the slide and fire without noticing a bullet in the chamber or a mag in the gun.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
July 8, 2008, 08:41 PM
They've been talking about this all day on our local news and there's been a lot of skepticism. Also by all rights even it was an accident he was committing a crime by simply possessing the firearm, and since it resulted in a death he should probably be charged with manslaughter just like a person who hits and kills a person with a car while driving on the revoked list can be charged. Simply put negligent or not this would have never happened if he didn't illegally possess a firearm.

ZombieHunter
July 8, 2008, 09:15 PM
<---- skeptical for all the stated reasons.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist...just jaded and cynical.

Funderb
July 8, 2008, 09:20 PM
WHY would you clean a loaded gun?
someone give me a good reason short of cleaning in the middle of a gunfight. That is a stupid reason.

h-word
July 8, 2008, 09:26 PM
Considering his background I find it very hard to believe it was accidental. Hopefully he ends up where he belongs.

usmarine0352_2005
July 8, 2008, 09:36 PM
Quote:
I wonder how many "negligent discharges" are called "cleaning accidents"
What's the difference?


Some people believe there are no "accidents" with guns, thus no "accidental discharges", just "negligent discharges" meaning more your fault for not handling the weapon safely.

.

Otahyoni
July 8, 2008, 10:12 PM
Is GLOCK the only handgun design that requires the trigger to be pulled to disassemble the gun?

Do M&Ps or XDs, for example, require it?

I have a M&P 45 and to disassemble it for cleaning you have to remove the mag, lock the slide back, and flip a little lever down just below the action. As i see it, it's not possible to do this loaded. Also, no trigger-pull to take it down.

If this has been addressed, i apologize. I didnt read all the posts before i commented on this.

mattk
July 9, 2008, 09:40 AM
I have a feeling this guy didn't want a child or possibly a female child.

He may not be smart but the old shoot your self to make it look accidental or like an assualt etc is the plot of about a dozen tv shows.

OCSO is treating this as a homocide.

Standing Wolf
July 9, 2008, 09:49 AM
Would more laws change the out come?

The purpose of additional laws pertaining to firearms has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with disarming the commoners.

jason10mm
July 9, 2008, 10:03 AM
I can easily see how this could happen. Guy drops the mag, never even checking the chamber. Maybe he never loads it and his wife did, or he forgot, eetc. Then he puts one hand in front of the muzzle to help push back the slide and pulls the trigger prior to getting a good grip on the grip.

BAM, bullet goes through his hand and into his wife sitting in a chair at the end of the coffee table.

I suspect "cleaning the gun" meant he was wiping down the exterior and perhaps planning on swabing the barrel.

XDKingslayer
July 9, 2008, 10:10 AM
Does it matter what pistols have what types of actions and safeties? We've seen this happen with everything from semi-autos to revolvers to bolt action hunting rifles.

When you make something idiot proof someone will simply make a bigger idiot.

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