America's safest place, even Cops don't have guns


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usmarine0352_2005
July 8, 2008, 11:41 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/osha.guns/index.html


Princeton can keep its cops unarmed, OSHA says


(UWIRE) -- Princeton University's policy of not allowing its officers to carry guns on campus doesn't hurt the officers' ability to do their jobs, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration ruled.

OSHA closed the case on June 24 after ruling on June 20 that Princeton had complied with OSHA regulations.

The complaint, filed by Public Safety Fraternal Orders of Police's president and patrolman James Lanzi, alleged that the policy of not allowing Public Safety officers to carry guns was an occupational hazard.

Lanzi has been publicly pushing for the institution to arm trained Public Safety officers since early 2008.

"It's a safety-and-health issue, a matter of our ability to respond to something -- that's the basis for the complaint," Lanzi told the Times of Trenton earlier this week.

An informal complaint

The complaint was treated informally because Princeton did not meet the criteria for the on-site inspections conducted for formal complaints, OSHA spokeswoman Leni Uddyback-Fortson said. These criteria include the existence of a likely or imminent danger and previous OSHA citations, according to OSHA's web site.

"Basically, the complaint itself alleged that the University was not providing its 22 police officers with the necessary tools that would allow them to do their job safely," Uddyback-Fortson said.

OSHA treated the action as an informal complaint, allowing the school five days to respond in writing whether the allegation was valid or invalid, she said. OSHA found the university did provide the training and the personal protective equipment that was required by OSHA standards.

Public Safety officers currently carry batons, handcuffs and a substance similar to pepper spray. They also wear bulletproof vests.

A June 19 letter submitted to OSHA by Princeton noted that "two state courts have considered this identical issue, and both have dismissed the complaints" on the grounds that OSHA has no specific standards for equipping employees with firearms as "personal protective equipment."

Princeton's letter was referring to similar complaints filed against the University of Wisconsin and the University of Northern Iowa, both of which were ultimately dismissed by state courts.

Princeton went on to cite a Department of Justice survey stating that, as of 2004-05, only 30 percent of private colleges and universities nationwide with sworn police officers had armed public safety officers.

"For some colleges and universities, the right policy is to arm their public safety officers, but we believe that would not be the right policy for Princeton, at least for now," Princeton spokeswoman Cass Cliatt said.

Princeton officials have said if an armed on-campus response is necessary the Princeton Borough and Princeton Township police departments will be able to adequately handle the situation.

"When there is a need for an armed officer in a situation that is potentially violent, we work with the Borough or Township to have them respond; that is one of our unique characteristics with our location between two municipalities," Cliatt said.

Cliatt said the Princeton believes it is fully compliant with all OSHA regulations and that arming Public Safety officers could harm the relationship between students and officers.

In a March 3 column, however, Lanzi said that Public Safety officers would not be able to adequately respond to an "active shooter situation" on campus, such as the recent tragedies at Northern Illinois University and Virginia Tech.

"Princeton's security plan eliminates an extremely valuable resource by not properly equipping Princeton University police officers with the necessary tools to protect themselves and the community," he wrote.

Uddyback-Fortson says the union is not prohibited from filing another complaint.

"There's nothing that says that they can't file again," she said



"if I can change... and you can change... everybody can change!"



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Golden Hound
July 8, 2008, 11:52 PM
Why is it that the stupidest people in the universe are so often affiliated with the academic world?

DnPRK
July 8, 2008, 11:53 PM
Issue them a couple ink pens and lots of paper. If there is ever a VT style active shooter, they will have a lot of report writing to do once the bad guy runs out of ammo.

Raystonn
July 8, 2008, 11:58 PM
... They also wear bulletproof vests...

If all guns are banned, including those of the police, then why in the world would they need bullet proof vests?? If vests are warranted due to the remote possibility that someone might *gasp* not follow the gun ban, then perhaps *another gasp* the good guys should get guns so they can handle that situation? :what:

:banghead:

-Raystonn

Jeff White
July 9, 2008, 12:06 AM
Do we really want OSHA writing regulations about firearms as personal protective equipment?

Think of the precedent that would set. Some bureaucrat, totally ignorant of the issue picking out what firearm, holster and ammunition someone who was armed at work would have to use. Every no-guts, firearms illiterate, politically appointed administrator would hide behind those OSHA regs. Ammunition development would grind to a halt. Things like upgrades to semi-autos from revolvers, patrol rifles and other weapons choices would be in the hands of an unthinking federal bureaucracy....:banghead:

What was he thinking?

Jeff

kentucky bucky
July 9, 2008, 12:08 AM
I've NEVER been desperate enough to take a job like that. It would feel like you were a walking target.:confused:

usmarine0352_2005
July 9, 2008, 12:11 AM
.


See if there's a school shooting, you won't be charged with murder if you shoot the bad guy.


However, you will be fined $15,000 by OSHA for violation of regulations.

.

justin 561
July 9, 2008, 12:22 AM
OSHA is a joke any who. What gives them the right to tell you, you can't carry a weapon, when you do SECURITY? Would they prefer them to carry a flashlight to "shine something down."

armoredman
July 9, 2008, 12:23 AM
kentucky bucky, come walk a yard with me, when you KNOW everyone there is a convicted felon! :) No, I agree, for a police officer to be deliberately unarmed is to make him/her into a target, and for these "officials" to agree with this policy borders on criminal in my mind.

abrink
July 9, 2008, 12:26 AM
Now we can take the hammer away from the carpenter to. Afterall he doesn't need it. If he ever has to hammer in a nail he can use his hands. Can't he?

jrfoxx
July 9, 2008, 01:16 AM
While I am personally on the side of the officers/security people on this one, I have to agree with OSHA that this really isnt a matter for them.

This is something that seems to me to be more the domain of getting your contract with the school to allow guns, and if they wont, then either the company shouldnt take the job (and get the union to get other companies to back them by not taking it), or let the courts hash it out with a civil suit.

I also have to agree with Jeff White about not WANTING guns to become OSHA's business.as he points out, seems like very bad juju.

also, unless I'm not seeing something in the article that others appear to be, it doesnt sound to me like OSHA said anything about the officers cant, or even shouldnt be armed, they just said that firearms was basically not thier businees when it come to workplace safety regulations.I happen to agree with them.

SomeKid
July 9, 2008, 01:23 AM
Actually, I am glad the cops are staying unarmed. If we can't be armed, they shouldn't either.

M203Sniper
July 9, 2008, 01:23 AM
Pretty sure the officers at princeton are civil service. Rutgers is something else.

SSN Vet
July 9, 2008, 01:26 AM
Why is it that the stupidest people in the universe are so often affiliated with the academic world?

theory to practice.....

they sit in their little dream world campus utopia bubbles and write papers....

not to many professors I ever studied under ever held a "real" (non academic) job.

abrink
July 9, 2008, 01:38 AM
Actually, I am glad the cops are staying unarmed. If we can't be armed, they shouldn't either.

There's no reason to say that. I agree that we should also be allowed to be armed but when you say things like that, you're nor much better than your average liberal gun grabber. Besides, all though there are a lot of restrictions, most states do allow you to be armed.

SomeKid
July 9, 2008, 01:41 AM
abrink,

Would you rather have a special protected class that can do things we the people cannot? What I am advocating is that the law be applied equally. Now, if you want to equate me to a liberal gun grabber without knowing anything about what I have done for the RKBA, that is your call, newbie who as far as I know has done nothing other than type on a message board.

ClickClickD'oh
July 9, 2008, 02:02 AM
That's some insanity Princeton has talked themselves into. They give the officers batons, OC, handcuffs and protective vests.. then turn around and say that there's no reason for them to have a gun? Well then what are the batons, OC, handcuffs and vests for?

Of course, now that this is in the news, every two bit thug for fifty miles around is going to be making a bee line to Princeton.

Gunnerpalace
July 9, 2008, 04:02 AM
Do we really want OSHA writing regulations about firearms as personal protective equipment?


See everybody be happy we have the ATF to deal with,


OSHA has rules on how you sit IN A CHAIR!

Prince Yamato
July 9, 2008, 04:27 AM
You know, ten years ago, I could see a ruling like this. But holy God, after Virginia Tech, the Illinois shooting, and however many others, you'd think these people would get a clue.

The University of Texas campus security carries a night-sighted Glock in 40 S&W, with multiple mags for quick reloads. They also carry OC and a Taser. The squad cars are equipped with AR-15s and/or Remington 870s.

That's how you equip campus security; not be giving them a freaking metal stick and saying, "good luck".

Princeton's security policy is reviewed through the period eye of the early 1990s.

taprackbang
July 9, 2008, 04:43 AM
Recipe for disaster, in my opinion. Every campus shooter thus far has been found to be on legalized brain dope. Do we hear about that from the media? No..... Go after big Pharma and leave our guns alone.

Shadow1198
July 9, 2008, 05:36 AM
F*ck, the madness from England is already making it's way stateside. I can understand people wanting to disarm the public. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying by that. It is 100% wrong, unconstitutional, and downright evil but I can understand how people can get into the frame of mind that they want to disarm the public. It is certainly a form of mental illness. However disarming the police?! Whoever could possibly think that is truly a moron beyond the possibility of redemption.

Moonclip
July 9, 2008, 06:30 AM
My local community college, the keystone cops there are not allowed firearms either which may be a good thing.

JohnBT
July 9, 2008, 08:19 AM
"Princeton officials have said if an armed on-campus response is necessary the Princeton Borough and Princeton Township police departments will be able to adequately handle the situation."

See, it says right there that Princeton police are armed. I think they should lay off the campus guards since they have the situation under control.

:)

burningsquirrels
July 9, 2008, 08:44 AM
i hate new jersey, lol.

#shooter
July 9, 2008, 09:27 AM
i hate new jersey, lol.
We all do, well i do at least. I escaped in 1990 and my family was able to make it out several years later.

To my knowledge a campus officer has never prevented or cut short a campus shooting. All these police need is yellow tape.

burningsquirrels
July 9, 2008, 09:38 AM
^^^ well there you go. a baton, spray, and cuffs for the drunk frat/sorority folks, and yellow tape for the rest. :(

jws527
July 9, 2008, 09:59 AM
Why is it that the stupidest people in the universe are so often affiliated with the academic world?They aren't stupid - they're naive. There's a very distinct difference.

I myself grew up in a suburban fantasy land where the worst thing that ever happened was an affair between two consenting married adults, or a kid wandering off to his friend's house without telling his parents first (prompting a frantic "kidnapping" search by the parents and subsequently informed police department). If things got really bad, some drunken teenager would smash a window or engage in petty theft. It's difficult for anybody used to that sort of environment to see (even though home invasions can and frequently do happen in upper class suburbia) any use for guns, weapons, or lethal force in the name of self defense. To them, guns are a catalyst for "unintended" levels of violence and "gun control" is actually an effective preventative measure.

Mind you, I was never an anti. I was simply indifferent...an attitude that actually changed when I went to college. I inadvertently chose an apartment on the wrong side of town and quickly came face-to-face with the less than pleasant side of humanity on a very regular basis. Not the worst neighborhood by a long shot, but easily bad enough to change my entire perspective on the world at large - let's just say that whenever somebody knocked (or banged, as they were wont to do) on the door after 10 pm, I answered it with a fillet knife in hand.

ilbob
July 9, 2008, 10:12 AM
I don't see that this is a matter for OSHA to decide in the first place.

Virtually all private colleges in the country have unarmed security.

LAK
July 9, 2008, 10:17 AM
OSHA was the wrong organization to complain to. Like complaining to the FCC about the intercom system in a hotel.

If these guys, "public safety officers" are recognized (by the state) peace officers paid for with public money they need to get the attention of the legislature.

If they are hired and paid with private funds they probably need to find new jobs. In fact their most efective tool would be an on the spot walk out.

drgrenthum
July 9, 2008, 10:33 AM
This is a private institiution and if they dont want armed police so be it. I think the officers should be called what they are security guards, in which case i believe more then half the people here complaining about them not having firearms would change there minds. Since typically security guards are not trained or paid as well as police.

They are probably only called "police" because it gives a greater psycological effect on the students then "security guard" noone wants to be given an order by a security guard.

jws527
July 9, 2008, 10:53 AM
I don't know about Princeton, but the campus police where I went to school were actual LEOs.

DEDON45
July 9, 2008, 11:07 AM
Genius, pure genius....

abrink
July 9, 2008, 12:54 PM
abrink,

Would you rather have a special protected class that can do things we the people cannot? What I am advocating is that the law be applied equally. Now, if you want to equate me to a liberal gun grabber without knowing anything about what I have done for the RKBA, that is your call, newbie who as far as I know has done nothing other than type on a message board.

I agree the law should be applied equally. I'm sorry if i offended you with that post. The only reason i said that is because you were agreeing with disarming people. If we're going to win this "war" we need to not take guns away from anyone, but fight for the right for everyone to have a gun. And FYI I've done my fair share for the RKBA. Sorry... I know you're a human and not a liberal gun grabber:D.

gtmerkley
July 9, 2008, 01:21 PM
Its like the old saying when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

M203Sniper
July 9, 2008, 03:39 PM
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/publicsafety/about.htm#WhoWeAre

The department consists of 62 professional police and security officers and other team members dedicated to providing first-class service to the community. Officers patrol the campus on foot, by bicycle, and in vehicles. Several officers and a supervisor are on duty 24 hours a day. The Communications Center is staffed with trained and certified communications officers who answer calls for service, dispatch officers and other emergency services to incidents, and monitor intrusion detection and fire alarms. University uniformed Public Safety Officers, and Police Officers, who are not in uniform, are primarily responsible for building security and enforcement of parking and traffic regulations. The non-uniformed Police Officers, and the shift supervision, Sergeants and Lieutenants, that are in uniform, have the authority of commissioned police officers with full power of arrest under N.J.S.A. 18A:6-4.5 and are required to complete a rigorous basic police officer training program. In addition, specialized advanced training continues throughout their careers. The campus falls under the jurisdiction of several police agencies whose services the Department of Public Safety supplements, rather than replaces. The Department of Public Safety maintains a close working relationship with those agencies. Local police agencies provide information to the Department of Public Safety on matters of criminal activity at off-campus recognized student activities. Crime statistics are compiled by coordination with these local police agencies and by an electronic record keeping system dedicated to the department.


http://web.princeton.edu/sites/publicsafety/contact_us.htm

:evil:

Gaucho Gringo
July 9, 2008, 07:14 PM
Tell the officers to come apply for the Portland Police Dept.(OR). They are crying for people. A month ago they had a recruiting team in Chicago,IL figuring that a lot of qualified people(wanting to get out of the area) would apply and take the exam. Only about 15% of the applicants showed up for the test. It turned out to be a big bust, so if you know anyone who wants a job in LE here is the website http://www.portlandonline.com/joinportlandpolice/

bobfxd
July 9, 2008, 07:47 PM
P/U has both security and police.Police go thru the same training as any other LEO in NJ,security are employees of public safety.The union for the police claim thier officers are properly trained LEO's and should be able to carry sidearms as any other LEO in the state.Guns for P/O,no guns forS/O.

Psywarrior13
July 9, 2008, 08:00 PM
I just hope they come to their senses before a mass shooting happens there, and they learn the hard way. But then again, we don't want any of those "evil" guns influencing them to kill those innocent gunmen. :barf:

Triphammer
July 9, 2008, 11:40 PM
[quote]Issue them a couple ink pens and lots of paper. If there is ever a VT style active shooter, they will have a lot of report writing to do once the bad guy runs out of ammo.[quote]

Not much to write if you didn't see anything. If my employer disarmed me in that situation, I'd be as far away as possible. No disrespect meant the disarmed guards but I wouldn't stick around to be a helpless target.

camslam
July 10, 2008, 12:01 AM
With all due respect, these cops are either, very brave, very stupid, or hoping that their luck holds out.

Disarming law enforcement is almost as stupid as disarming citizens.

Brilliant, just brilliant idea! :scrutiny:

Shadow1198
July 10, 2008, 07:28 AM
I mean, by default, an officer, guard, etc etc is there to provide some form of order. Especially in situations of disorder. LEO's can't do their jobs if no one has any respect for them and continues to do whatever they want, and/or even attack the officer without any fear. Take a look a England for example. There is a shocking number of officer's injured every year because criminals know that most of them aren't armed and they can do whatever they want since they are on much more neutral ground. With intermediate force weapons, that basically says to criminals, act the F up and you will be sprayed in the face or zapped with a taser right before taking a trip to jail. With firearms, they say to criminals that if you get completely out of hand and it becomes necessary, you can and will be shot (if necessary) and could possibly die. That's incentive to not act the F up. If someone still does because they are a lunatic or simply do not care, then they are simply going to have to suffer the repercussions that they brought on themselves. I'm sorry but, LEO's without guns are not really LEO's. Any idiot criminal can get a hold of a gun. If a LEO can't even expect to protect himself from the average idiot criminal, then he certainly can't uphold and enforce the law in the same manner as has been done for so long in this country.

MedWheeler
July 10, 2008, 03:15 PM
Quote:
... They also wear bulletproof vests...

If all guns are banned, including those of the police, then why in the world would they need bullet proof vests?? If vests are warranted due to the remote possibility that someone might *gasp* not follow the gun ban, then perhaps *another gasp* the good guys should get guns so they can handle that situation?
[QUOTE]

Makes as much sense as requiring someone with no car or driver's license to carry auto insurance..

Stevie-Ray
July 10, 2008, 11:35 PM
Would they prefer them to carry a flashlight to "shine something down."Why no, that's a deadly weapon also. Remember Rodney King and Malice Green.

burningsquirrels
July 10, 2008, 11:40 PM
maybe the movie i, robot was on to something. we should just all stay home 24/7. then nobody gets hurt.

"when people are forced to stay home, the only ones outside their homes are criminals." that makes it easy to find 'em.

kentucky bucky
July 11, 2008, 12:05 AM
Hey ARMOREDMAN!

I've been "walking the yard" since 1989, but none of our knot-heads have guns! I've also been a LEO on the street and I wouldn't have stayed for one minute if they took my weapon.

outerlimit
July 11, 2008, 01:31 AM
I work a security job where we are the only ones there 16hrs of the day and we don't have guns either. It's funny and yet sad at the same time.

But who am I to question the infinite wisdom of a law enforcement agency.

That's some insanity Princeton has talked themselves into. They give the officers batons, OC, handcuffs and protective vests.. then turn around and say that there's no reason for them to have a gun? Well then what are the batons, OC, handcuffs and vests for?

That sounds like my job, minus the protective vests and until recently minus the OC.... it's a paycheck though. :D

Don't ask me what's going on, I only work there.

Old Fuff
July 11, 2008, 11:23 AM
Public Safety officers currently carry batons, handcuffs and a substance similar to pepper spray. They also wear bulletproof vests.

Hardly necessary I think, because Princeton is a self-appointed Gun Free Zone.

Crime statistics are compiled by coordination with these local police agencies and by an electronic record keeping system dedicated to the department.

Another waste of money. Without guns in their environment there is no crime - or at least there shouldn't be. :rolleyes:

Cliatt said the Princeton believes it is fully compliant with all OSHA regulations and that arming Public Safety officers could harm the relationship between students and officers.

Meaning that the student body prefers to be sitting ducks for both muggers or deranged killers.

Some folks deserve what they get. :banghead:

burningsquirrels
July 11, 2008, 11:30 AM
Hardly necessary I think, because Princeton is a self-appointed Gun Free Zone.

:D:rolleyes:

22-rimfire
July 11, 2008, 11:59 AM
Don't you know guns are illegal on campus. What is the concern? The campus police are armed based on the threat they face.

burningsquirrels
July 11, 2008, 12:04 PM
i know. i was agreeing with his sarcastic response.

hso
July 11, 2008, 12:45 PM
OSHA decided that there was no merit to the complaint.

Firearms are not PPE. The vests would be. I see the OSHA decision to not involve itself in the dispute to be a good call.

Flyboy
July 12, 2008, 07:20 PM
Do we really want OSHA writing regulations about firearms as personal protective equipment?
Absolutely not. Last time OSHA got involved with a gun question in Oklahoma, the judge forbade us to keep guns in our cars.

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