Ice picks and screwdrivers.


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Carl Levitian
July 9, 2008, 02:50 PM
Ice picks.

They used to be part of everyday life once upon a time. I recall when we had a family picnic, mom would make all kinds of goodies to go in her big basket and dad would get the big block of ice from the store on the corner and break it down in smaller pieces with the ice pick he lept in the kitchen drawer.

I guess those days are gone now, with ice sold in nice little bags of cubes. No pick needed. So now there would be no exuse to have something that the old Murder Inc. people out of New York had great sucsess with in the 1930's, as a toss away hit weapon.

But, is there a substitute? Something mundane enough to not rate a second glance, have a pluasable reason to be on you, and still be utilized to defend oneself, not to mention have a multitude of other uses?

The common screwdriver is one answer. Cheap, handy, and durable, it has alot going for it. Portable pry bar, paint can opener, tool, it can still punch a nasty hole in something. And some of them have very good grippy handles.

I once had a fencing instructor at Ft. Sam Houston who had a mantra he'd pound into our heads. "Cut to the hard, thrust to the soft!" he'd yell at a student. He was an exitable Frenchman named Gerard Pougardou, and was the coach for the U.S.Army Pentathalon team that was headquartered at Ft. Sam. The fencing club begged and groveled enough that he agreed to be a part time coach for the Ft. Sam recreation club fencing get togethers. We had foil, Epee, and saber fencing, and Pouge took particular pleasure in saber in which anything goes, differeing from foil in that the only target is the thorax area.

Pouge would spot a student making a wrong move, and I can still here his french accent as he ran over to the student, "No, no, no, I tell you again, cut to the hard and thrust to the soft!"

Looking at a 7 or 8 inch screw driver, one can imagine how it can be used to block and repost in a defence situation. Given how even cheap screw drivers have enough strength for prying, it's more than strong enough for parying an attack and thrusting to the soft. (Throat, stomach.) It certainly has better reach than a box cutter or small kitchen knife that seems to be a couple of the weapons of choice of street punks in my neck of the woods. Maryland being a non carry state, and hostile to firearms owners, I have noticed in local crime reports that the robbery victims very often report that they are threatened with a box cutter, or small kitchen knife like a paring knife. Its something they can ditch fast if it looks like they are going to be shaken down by "the man" as they call the local police. In recent years, it seems as if fewer guns are being used in street and parking lot robberys and assaults.

Just some random thoughts.

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JShirley
July 9, 2008, 02:54 PM
Good thoughts. Screwdrivers are just plain useful, too...

Omaha-BeenGlockin
July 9, 2008, 02:55 PM
Philips or Slotted?

jahwarrior
July 9, 2008, 04:56 PM
screwdrivers, hammers, chains, and boxcutters were the weapons of choice in my neighborhood, growing up. that is, until some of grew up, and graduated to guns.

sm
July 9, 2008, 05:34 PM
Flat.

1. Don't go where trouble is,
2. Leave if trouble shows up,
3. And then if in fear of life, deal with trouble.

Note: I was born in '55, and these lessons go back before I entered the first grade.
My Mentors & Elders include: LEOs, Military and Ex-Cons

Icepicks are sharp and pointy, and in today's society, these are not as "society friendly".
Screwdrivers are, therefore one can carry a screwdriver in activities of daily living (ADLs).

1. Screwdrivers can be handy even if one does not go, where trouble is.

2. Trouble shows up, one can use a flat screwdriver in leaving.

-This might be prying a door open to exit, and /or shoving under one to prevent trouble from coming out the exit you just did.

-Maybe your college age daughter staying in a hotel, is afraid of the loud and boisteruous drunks outside her door, if she has a door stop, that can be wedged at the floor under door, and the flat screwdriver at the top of the door. No door stop, use the screwdriver.

-One might need to evade a Fire, and flat screwdrivers assist with getting window locks open, windows raised, and screens cleared.

-Trouble, can be something other than a criminal(s).

3. Trouble has to be dealt with.
Now while I was raised to not get into a knife fight, I was mentored by LEOs, Military , Ex Cons and others.
Yes, I have used a pocket knife, more than once, to defend.
Screwdrivers too.

Now I never had a slip joint close on my fingers either.
In lessons, when the locking knives come to be, they will break, and they will close.


Screwdrivers do not fold, and will not cut the user, as many knives will.
The shaft is either square, or round. The corners of a flat, are sharp, and if one gets a plain vanilla hard plastic, or wood handle, that screwdriver works both flat end and handle end.

Use the damn screwdriver like a criminal would.
Repeat.
Use the damn screwdriver like a criminal would.

Meaning the violent criminal actor (VCA) should not know you have a screwdriver, until the screwdriver has done its damage.

(Applies to knife, as that is exactly how I used a slip joint/ pocket knife, and applies to any other means to defend).

If a VCA wants to take you down, he/she will have you pegged.
He/She knows you will not use your gun hand, in carrying packages, and will have spotted your clip on knives, maybe both pockets. They will wait, and see you write a check, or sign a credit card, then know which is your strong hand.

When they strike, you will not know it, until they have struck you with a screwdriver.
Do not think, sitting with your back to the wall in a restaurant, is a safe place to be. For the criminals will spot you and yours, and they own you.

Street criminals do wear body armor...it is how they dress.
They will defeat real issued body armor.

Street thug knows many ladies carry at the appendix, one cannot draw a gun, if a screwdriver is blocking the gun from being drawn from a holster.

Mentors & Elders , including beat cops, were quite proficient with weak hand draw and shooting. They carried slip joint pocket knives, usually two, and one real small, it was not just for getting a kids coin out of a gum ball machine either.
They also carried a screwdriver. Quite handy back in the day of vent windows on vehicles to unlock a vehicle the keys were locked inside, or to use as a door stop to assist a business owner getting furniture into a business,and...
in the event trouble showed and needed some "adjustment".


The VCA(s) will shiv you before you know it, and toss that screwdriver aside, and if need, a layer of clothing with blood and be gone in seconds.

Witnesses , if any, report what they saw to first responders.
VCA does not appear like he/she did and they are gone from the scene.


Don't look like prey - Do think like a criminal.

wheelgunslinger
July 9, 2008, 05:34 PM
same here, jw.

One guy carried a small adjustable wrench and used it like a kubotan.

jahwarrior
July 9, 2008, 06:56 PM
sm, that was one of the best posts on street saavy i've read in awhile.:cool:

rantingredneck
July 9, 2008, 07:04 PM
Indeed, sm, good stuff as usual.

I scare my wife sometimes with stuff like this. She tells me I think too much "like a crook".

BTW, there's a flat Stanley screwdriver in the door pocket to my truck. It aint there for screws.

jahwarrior
July 9, 2008, 11:54 PM
my brother's a mecahnic at a local garage. we both often look over his many hundreds of automechanic's tools, discussing how effective they'd be as defensive/offensive weapons. it seems the garage is a mighty dangerous place, with the right set of hands.

soccergod04
July 10, 2008, 12:54 AM
sm, great post. I especially like the last line.

sm
July 10, 2008, 02:04 AM
Thanks for the kind words.
It is I that thanks you folks.

Carl's thread topic and original post is a very good one, and it again brings out many things many of us have discussed before.

Society used to be tool users.
The simple fact is, some tool use, became less, and therefore not passed down to kids, or mentored to others, as folks became more civilized working in cities.

Folks went from rural settings to urban.
Still folks used ice picks to bust up a block of ice, I did recently and more than once due to power being out, during weather related matters.
I used a Old Hickory Ice Pick, and another one, that has to be 40 year old, as it came from a Ice house, now closed, but the name , address, and phone number was on this wooden handle, before it finally wore off.

Then...Dumbing Down of Society kicked in.
The powers that be, told Free Thinkers and tool users, they had a better way.
They could raise kids better, and society as a whole would be better off if they did things, and some things were gotten rid of, or not taught, shared and passed forward.

Then...Another societal problem come to be, and still is : The Great Equipment Race.

WE had Free Thinkers, and Tool Users. These folks knew, no tool was ever any better than the user of a tool.
Ice pick, screwdriver, firearm, tire balance machine, front end alignment machine, typewriter, fountain pen, flashlight...etc., were no better than the person using those tools.

Society was Dumbed Down, as the Government was going to take care of them, in various concerns of society.

These folks got married, had kids and passed down the Dumb Down genes even more to kids, who were being exposed to even more dumbing down.

Knives, and sharp pointy things are "bad", they cannot take knives to school, or scissors, or anything sharp and pointy. For if nobody has these sharp and pointy things, society will be safer.

Life is cyclic, and new folks have and will continue to want to be matriculated into various aspects of societal communities.

Like tool use.

These folks want to be part of a community so bad. Between not being raised right, parents did not parent, mentors did not mentor, and the Gov't saying everything was bad...they did not get correct basic fundamentals of Free Thinking, and Tool use.

Ice picks? Why?
Fridge has a automatic ice maker, and the bar, has a dedicated ice maker for entertaining folks.

They need a small pilot hole for a screw, no need for a ice pick or a screwdriver, they have cordless screwdrivers and drills with built in lights and levels to do that work now.

Why learn the correct basic fundamentals of staying safe, and the use of a firearm.
Heck the mere fact you have a certain gun, with certain ammunition is a magic talisman, and evil will stay away.
If you want to shoot firearm sports, other guns will make the hits in blinding fast speed for you and you get a class rating.

No need to learn correct basic fundamentals of knife use and care.
You will never be without electricity so you cannot use your plug in knife sharpener, or be out camping, hiking, or go through a tornado.

Why heck, darn phooey! That $200 knife opens just by thinking about it, and anyone seeing it, with evil intent, will run , as it is a magic talisman.
Good grief Margo! Everybody knows this knife won the newspaper cutting contest and made a hole in a car door!

No need to "really" use it. I mean hamburgers, sausage, ribs, bacon, fish and the like comes from a grocery store, or that place on teh Intrawebz that sends it to you at home.


I do not have a problem with a quality made cattle cane or walking stick.
Still that street savvy , street thug will take you down in a heartbeat with a $10 drug store cane, or a broom found in a dumpster.

Besides your wallet, credit cards or "worse" they leave with your $200 knife, and your hi-round count gun and stick in one of the pocket of their body armor, with that shiv, and other take from prey.

While you were checking out the $200 pocket clip looked on your pocket , in a store window...
You never saw any of the "3+1" that SouthNarc refers to. Much less the others in the team that had you pegged.
You only told first responders about one, maybe two VCAs.
There were more, you never knew it.

Best go see the Magic Man for a better Magic Talisman...or...

Go see a Free Thinker and Tool User, and get matriculated into the community that will allow you to use your brain, and any item you pick up, will be a tool in your hands.

Like a trash can lid, a vehicle antenna, umbrella, flower vase, ...


Go look up National Geographic , in the year 1971. I forget the month, but the article is about the Zulu.

The picture shows a couple, in their nicest clothes, making the 10 mile trek to a city.
It is a nice , sunny day, and the husband is carrying a umbrella.

The caption , paraphrased, shares how there is no threat of rain, the husband is carrying an umbrella, as the Zulu, learn , starting at a very young age, the art of stick fighting, and using whatever item is available to them.

It goes on to mention, it is rare for the Zulu to be without a Cane, or Umbrella.
Still if they are, they have "people skills" (referring to watching for signals) and the ability to use what ever item is handy.

Sticks are preferred, as stick beats knife.

The key here is, one that knows stick and shiv, can work a shiv against a stick.
Firearm, and knife too if you will.
Hence the big skill set is "people skills" , referring to watching for signals, and SouthNarc shares 3+1 as his way of defining what he experienced and others, when they woke up from having their butts kicked and went "what happened?"


Of interest, me and some others used a mechanical stop watch and without the folks knowing, timed them.
These folks averaged point six seconds - .06 - from draw to getting on target.

Phone and cable folks, drawing electrical scissors from the scissor holster, and making quick effective "hits".

Electrical scissors are sharp!

How fast can you draw from a holster?

Criminals know, these phone and cable folks are not easy prey, as they have hard hats on and have all sorts of tools, the tool belt acts as "body armor" to some preferred areas they like to shiv and...

Think out of the box - the criminals know the box better than you do.

Brian Dale
July 10, 2008, 03:16 AM
Steve, I've seen references to SouthNarc's "3+1" before. I've searched for it on the Net but I haven't located a definitive discussion of his principle. Is it something that can be shared in public?

TimboKhan
July 10, 2008, 05:56 AM
Ice picks hurt. I know this because my mom accidentally rammed one through the top of my hand when I was about 9 while we were chipping ice for the ice cream maker. The "problem" with it was that it caused no damage other than essentially piercing my hand. I don't recall it even bleeding all that much.

hso
July 10, 2008, 06:42 AM
Having had a misguided individual use a flat screw driver to attempt to shiv me I can attest to the fact that they're not just for auto mechanic's class.

qwert65
July 10, 2008, 08:01 AM
Does anyone know of a handy tool that you can carry that's effective against machetes and dogs?

Right now I carry a stick(used to carry a machete but like the stick better)

Carl Levitian
July 10, 2008, 08:44 AM
Stay with a good stick. With the exeption of a firearm, I can't think of a better tool.

TimboKhan
July 10, 2008, 03:26 PM
to attempt to shiv me

The weapon is the shiv. He attempted to shank you.

Word.

jahwarrior
July 10, 2008, 05:00 PM
The weapon is the shiv. He attempted to shank you.

dang, beat me to it.;)

bikerdoc
July 10, 2008, 05:32 PM
many years ago I worked the emergency room in downtown Boston. Sat night was the gun and knife show. one darwin award candidate came in with a stab wound that needed 40 stitches. as we were preping him, drug addled skippy took a sharpened screw driver out of his draws and stabbed the young intern doing the sutures. Nasty wound that required surgery to repair his bowel.
skippy went to jail the rest of us learned to search patients carefully.

alwilliam
July 10, 2008, 05:34 PM
"Why heck, darn phooey! That $200 knife opens just by thinking about it, and anyone seeing it, with evil intent, will run , as it is a magic talisman.
Good grief Margo! Everybody knows this knife won the newspaper cutting contest and made a hole in a car door!"


Excellent point ! I am a collector just for fun...of all types of very odd weapons and really IMO 99.9% of them are of the "magic talisman" type item.Evil looking but not of much real world use.

In fact in my deep research of the oss and soe I have found that most of the weird weapons that peoplke think they used were total BS.

Sleeve daggers,thumb daggers ,odd hat pin daggers ,weird guns and knives whatever were really either dis-information put out by the oss to scare the germans or were issued to help boost bravery...even the L-pills/suicide pills were rarely used but were carried by most agents...because they helped boost Confidence.

In fact most odd weapons like the oss spring cosh and stingers were tossed as soon as agents hit the field..its a known fact.Also a fact that stigers were more of a danger to the user and were a big A.D. problem.

Some agents used 25 or 32 acp colts and maybe a m-3 blade.....most used/EDC no issue type weapons once in place....why EDC carry a known "spy" weapon like a "wrist dagger" when a screwdriver works the same and maybe better.

Even the famous F/S dagger was passed over in favor of the more useful m-3 design as time went on and agents learned more about what worked and what did not.

PaladinX13
July 10, 2008, 05:51 PM
Perhaps better than nothing, but my girlfriend used to see patients stabbed with screw-drivers all the time in Camden and all of them survived and were quite energetic...

alwilliam
July 10, 2008, 05:58 PM
"Perhaps better than nothing, but my girlfriend used to see patients stabbed with screw-drivers all the time in Camden and all of them survived and were quite energetic..."

I agree with this also...I was hit with a long "ice pick" type weapon over 20 years ago in the lower abdomen and while it felt bad at the time it had no stopping energy at all at the time...but on the other hand I later developed delayed Peritonitis from the wound and MAN that does have stopping power.

That why ,I like impact tools they stop fast...IMO.:)

Brian Dale
July 10, 2008, 07:40 PM
Perhaps better than nothing, but my girlfriend used to see patients stabbed with screw-drivers all the time in Camden and all of them survived and were quite energetic...Well, for someone whose goal is to get away from an attack, "better than nothing" can sometimes be "good enough."

I run pretty fast for a 48 year old smoker.

Eleven Mike
July 10, 2008, 08:30 PM
The cheater bar in my truck bed is NOT also intended for anti-personnel use. Why, shucks, officer, I never thought o' usin' it that way. :)

hso
July 11, 2008, 12:20 AM
Why would anyone want to carry an 18" ratchet?
Because with the proper head it can loosen someone's nuts!

sm
July 11, 2008, 12:33 AM
ba-da-bing!

Try the veal, hso will be here all week.

*good one*

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