What kind of groups should I expect with a 10/22 Carbine


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FiveBillionAcres
July 9, 2008, 07:11 PM
I bought a new 10/22 carbine and I've put about 300 rounds through it now and I can't get the groups smaller than 2" at 40 Yards which doesn't please me.

Also the scope base keeps vibrating lose so I tightened it up and one of the threads stripped, should I put a very thin coat of epoxy under it?

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CB900F
July 9, 2008, 09:31 PM
FiveBillion;

How much ammo testing are you prepared to do? Stock 10/22's can be surprisingly accurate - if you feed the gun what it wants to be fed. And no, they are not, repeat not, all alike. Consecutive S/N'ed guns will like two completely different ammo's. Test many different brands, and as many different types within a brand as you can find/afford.

Get rid of the rail that comes with the gun. Buy a decent set of mounts, Weaver makes an integral base unit that's been good to me. There are others also. Be prepared to spend a little money here, don't be cheap, quality costs more. Talley is also a very good brand & well worth a look.

900F

SSN Vet
July 9, 2008, 10:25 PM
doesn't the answer to this question have a little bit to do with your skill?

hksw
July 9, 2008, 11:58 PM
That sounds about right for an out of the box 10/22. Of all of the 10/22s I have and have shot before modification and seen from otheres', I do not recall any of them shooting under 1" at 50 yds regularly in stock form even with match grade ammo. They've usually been in the 1.25"-1.50" range at best, IIRC. I don't even shoot them in their original configuration any more when I get new ones. I go straight to replaing to modding. I'm sure there will be a ringer in the bunch that'll shoot well under 1" but I've yet to see one. If you want better precision, try removing the barrel band first and see what that does. If it doesn't help (much), get a new barrel at the very least.

You should still be OK with the remaining threaded 3 holes for the base. Loctite Blue or clear nail polish the bolts to the holes but make sure you don't let any of it drip into the action.

CB900F
July 10, 2008, 12:22 AM
Fella's;

Let me be clear. Doesn't matter if the ammo is "match" or not. The group size is directly affected by the gun's preference.

Admittedly your chances of good groups improve with good ammo, but that's only a rule of thumb. It is not cast in stone. I've seen a bone-stock package gun 10/22 shoot well under an inch at 50 yards. But, the owner did a lot of testing to find what that particular gun wanted to shoot.

I'm not saying they all will tune in if only you do enough testing, but many will. Far too many people junk the stock barrel for a wizard bull barrel without checking to see if the stock gun will shoot first.

900F

FiveBillionAcres
July 10, 2008, 02:04 AM
I love doing nerdy statistical stuff, I'll be trying lots of ammo for sure but remember that a 2" group at 40 yards is a a 2.5" group at 50 yards and that a 2.5" group is 50% larger than a 1.5" group. I will replace the barrel for sure some day, I was just hoping for better out of the box, they're so big it's making it hard to get the scope set up; then I had the stupid bolt break :(

Right now I can't afford to go out and buy a weaver mount and new rings and a barrel for a $275 gun and a $55 scope. Over time I would love to do all sorts of things for.

FiveBillionAcres
July 10, 2008, 02:16 AM
If we use the formula

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8199/formulakp7.jpg

we can see that a difference of 1" makes a huge difference in the percentage of area of a group at small sizes.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5887/differencegt2.jpg

Nhsport
July 10, 2008, 07:49 AM
Ammo will be one of the big factors, try your gun with some of the standard velocity target ammo. CCI standard,Wolf MT,federal gold medal are all possible but be aware that most 10/22's will be less reliable with standard velocity ammo if it functions at all.
The stock 10/22 triggers are rough and if you look around (rimfirecentral has lots of info) there are ways to improve factory parts and/or replace with some aftermarket parts . A better trigger is a beautifull thing

jmr40
July 10, 2008, 08:15 AM
If you have the standard model try shooting it without the barrel band. This seems to help. I have replaced the stocks on mine with Hogue stocks or bought the models that do not have the band. It may look a little odd without the band but you can either replace the stock, or I have seen some people cut the stock off behind where the band originally was and refinish the wood.

ArmedBear
July 10, 2008, 09:00 AM
2" @ 40 yards is all I'd expect from a standard 10/22. That's why I sold mine.

Loc-tite is fine for the scope mount, despite what the manual says, as long as you don't fill the receiver with it.:)

22-rimfire
July 10, 2008, 11:22 AM
I find it difficult to understand why the 10/22's are so popular when they won't consistantly shoot under and inch at 50 yards out of the box. That is 2 MOA accuracy and you are doing a lot worse.

I would look to the scope mounts first. As said, put some different mounts on it.

Second; You didn't say what kind of ammo you were shooting. Buy a couple boxes of each or add a few to the list and go out shooting from a bench; CCI High Velocity, CCI Standard Velocity, Federal 510's, Wolf Match Target, and Remington Golden Bullets (100 pack). Shoot at 25 yds until you start seeing better groups then move the target out to 50 yds.

Good luck.

lazyeye
July 10, 2008, 11:22 AM
My 10/22 always REALLY liked the CCI minimags.
Also loctite every screw on the scope mount, make sure its a quality scope. 10/22s like to shake loose crappy scopes.

If you have one of the synthetic stock 10/22s, remove the front barrel band, put a washer on the bolt that holds the stock to the receiver and loc-tite it down. This will do wonders for your accuracy.

With whatever ammo your gun likes, you should be able to shoot minute of squirrel at 100 yards.
Cheers.

MCgunner
July 10, 2008, 11:39 AM
My 10/22 shoots 1.5" at 50 with iron sights. If you want a match rifle, you bought the wrong one. Oh, you can make it shoot better. All it takes is money. Lots of aftermarket stuff you can doll it up with. I got mine for plinking and outdoor knock around and I'm quite happy with it as is. Great little .22 and plenty enough to shoot squirrels to 50 yards with. I have more accurate rifles, though. Actually, I have more accurate rimfire pistols. :D

kcmarine
July 10, 2008, 11:53 AM
Call me crazy, but using a stock, iron- sighted 10/22, I got better groups at 100 yards on my last range trip than i did with the pop's M1A and my Saiga. And this was with that crappy Thunderbolt ammo, too. Of course, this is because of my own lack of accuracy, not the M1A's and Saiga's. I was very surprised though. Pleasantly surprised :D

aka108
July 10, 2008, 01:48 PM
I shot a variety of ammo in my stock 10/22 and was never pleased with grouping size. Midway had a Adams and Bennet heavy bbl and Hogue overmolded stock combo for 99 bucks a few years ago. Though what the hell, might try it. Now the thing groups a inch or under. Trigger is still a bit rough but I don't want to put any more money in it.

FiveBillionAcres
July 10, 2008, 01:54 PM
It's possible the scope shaking loose was one of the bigger problems, or that my gun just doesn't like the CCI standard I'll be sure to try lots more stuff. I suspect the clamp on the end has "something" to do with it but I like the look of it so I might just open it up with the grinder so that it doesn't actually touch the barrel anymore.

The trigger isn't bad imo but it could be better it doesn't have that nice surprise snap to it.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

M2 Carbine
July 10, 2008, 01:58 PM
Surprisingly my (10/22) Charger is more accurate than our four 10/22 Rifles.
And yes, the guns are ammo sensitive.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/Ruger1022pistol50ydtarget.jpg

SlamFire1
July 10, 2008, 02:43 PM
Ruger 10/22's are fun rimfires. They are reliable, shoot fast, but are not target grade. 1.5" at fifty yards is doing good. That is unless you buy the Ruger 10/22 with the target barrel.

The barrels are the limitation. The carbine rugers have huge, loose chambers. Why? because the average person can't hit the broad side of a barn, and can't tell, but expects his rimfire to work without cleaning.

When I put a Volquartsen barrel on my 10/22, it really changed things. The chamber was tight, so tight that rounds had to be fired out of the chamber, and it was accurate.

Once you put on a match barrel, solid mounts, get a decent trigger group with has a decent trigger pull, and a target scope, maybe a little bedding, you will have a rifle equal in accuracy to an Anschutz.

Till then, you have a fun gun.

wanderinwalker
July 10, 2008, 11:29 PM
I'd say if you get to about 2" at 50 yards for 10-shots, reliably, from your stock 10/22, you're doing pretty well. I refuse to feed mine stuff that I know will really, really shoot, mostly because it's a $200 plinker, not a $2000 match rifle. I've noticed the difference in accuracy between CCI Green Tag and CCI Mini-Mags to be around .5" or so out of my 10/22. I'll stick with the Mini-Mags for half the price.

Ammo, I've tried CCI Mini-Mags (both 40gr solid and 36gr hollow point), Green Tag. Rem/Eley Target Rifle, RWS Target Rifle, Win Supreme (horrible in this rifle), T22, Super-X 37gr HP, 40gr Dyna-Point, Federal AutoMatch bulk (good in original lots, had a couple of bad ones and haven't bought any again in a year or so), CCI Blazer 40gr solid, Remington Golden Bullets 36gr HP (surprisingly accurate in this and my Single-Six), Federal Bulk pack 36gr HPs (varied from excellent to so bad I was wondering if I forgot how to shoot), Federal 510, CCI Stingers (worse than the worst packs of bulk ammo!) and I'm sure others I've forgotten. The one constant: My average groups at 50 yards rarely seem to go much better than the 2" range. Maybe a little under, maybe just over, but hovering right around 2".

That said, I think things like a better stock, trigger and sights would make a world of difference. To me, the standard carbine stock is too short and chunky. A Hogue or stock from a Deluxe Sporter (DSP) would be an improvement. Add either a scope or a set of aperture sights and a trigger job, and you'll probably have increased accuracy and usability.



Actually, a Hogue or DSP stock and a Williams receiver sight are on my to-do list. Maybe after a Marlin 39A or a 77/22 though! :o

JTW Jr.
July 11, 2008, 12:17 AM
Could it be the scope ? what brand ? What is the parallax set at ?

I have a stock 10/22 that will shoot right at an inch @ 75 yards using Fed 510.

Granted the 10/22 ain't a tack driver , but after seeing people drop $500 on that MP5 clone in 22....and not get any better accuracy... I will stick with my 10/22...although I prefer my Savage GVXP much more. :)

FiveBillionAcres
July 14, 2008, 01:56 PM
Good news!

I took a ton of material off the stock, 1/3" at the front just so it wouldn't touch the barrel. And I thread locked all mounts for the optics and took off the barrel clamp and now it's doing 1" at 40 yards, so that would be 1.25" at 50. I plan to get a new stock and bull barrel for it some day, I'm not sure I'll replace the whole trigger group though.

Seafarer12
July 14, 2008, 03:03 PM
A stock 10/22 is just a plinker. 2 inch at 50 is fine for rabbits and tin cans. The best thing I did to mine was changing the springs. Its not a light trigger but a lot better than what it was. I did the whole heavy barrel thing. To each his own. I am probably going to pull it off and sell it. I just wish I hadn't sold the stock barrel and stock.

FiveBillionAcres
July 14, 2008, 05:15 PM
Seafarer12
You don't like your heavy barrel?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 14, 2008, 05:41 PM
a 2.5" group is 50% larger than a 1.5" group.

Actually, a 2.5" group is 67% larger than a 1.5" group (1.0/1.5).

Now, a 1.5" group is 40% smaller than a 2.5" group (1.0/2.5), but that's a slightly different question.

I wouldn't expect ANY Ruger to group particularly well - it is what it is - a plinker. Get a Savage or CZ or Anshutz or etc. if you want itty bitty groups. Though, as has been said, it may very well group great if you find a particular load that suits the rifle to a 'T'.

pdowg881
July 14, 2008, 06:21 PM
2" @50yds 10 shot group is the best I've gotten (with rem bulk pack). I think its more accurate than the internet gives it credit for. I've never shot it with ant decent ammunition.

Ceemack
July 14, 2008, 07:38 PM
You're kind of asking the question in the wrong place. http://www.rimfirecentral.com would give you much more detailed information on the kinds of things you can do with a 10/22.

First of all, 1" at 40 yds. is better than I would expect from an essentially stock 10/22.

The barrel is usually the key factor in how a 10/22 performs. As you've already discovered, how you bed the action and the barrel would be a close second.

Power Custom makes a Picatinny rail for the 10/22 that goes for about $15, IIRC.

There's not much need to replace the entire trigger group. A replacement hammer from Volquartsen or Power Custom will get you a decent trigger pull, and they run $30-$35.

When the time comes to do something about the barrel, you have two choices: buy a replacement (either bull or sporter weight), or have the stock barrel set back and cut with a Benz chamber. Re-cutting to a tight chamber seems to yield very respectable accuracy--often in the 1 MOA range--and costs less than a new barrel. The most common aftermarket barrels, from Green Mountain, run around $135. Clerke is a less-expensive option, running around $80; some don't like them, but mine averages .5" at 50 yds. with ammo it likes.

xd45gaper
July 14, 2008, 07:43 PM
you try taking the barrel band off it and making sure the mounting bolt is tight.

Claude Clay
July 14, 2008, 07:49 PM
all this hype about cleaning. so, i cleaned mine a few weeks ago. first time since i bought it around 1983. besides making it about 1/2 a pound lighter there was no change. still shoots 1.5 moa with cci. figure i wasted an hour including the bakers dz of mags.
+1 on ammo sensitive. try 10 or so different brands at 25/50 and 75 yards. 5 rounds each target/each ammo. don't count the 1st shot of each 5.do this from a rifle rest or sand bags--you are testing the ammo not the shooter. bore snake with a few drops of remington oil on the tail only 3 times after each brand. 22's can suprise you--its not always the most expensive ammo that a particular gun like best. good luck.

gtmerkley
July 14, 2008, 08:08 PM
Well I never grouped mine and it is the same as it was when I got it out of the box no fancy barrel or trigger job. And I know I'm going to be called a liar but gt told me there was a chicken hawk after the chickens and I nailed him with one shot from 300 yards. The 22 didn't have the power to kill it at that distance but it knocked it off the tree and it hit the ground and flopped around in the snow before it flew off. That was past the statue of limitation but my BLM man said it was ok as long as it was after my live stock but it better have had chicken blood on it if I kill it. And I know you should never use a gun beyond its limits but it was all I could grab and I just wanted him to leave my chickens alone.

Seafarer12
July 14, 2008, 10:05 PM
Seafarer12
You don't like your heavy barrel?Nope it's too heavy, I like to be able to tote it around the woods. It was perfect then I had to go messing with it.

CRITGIT
July 15, 2008, 05:19 AM
Removing the barrel band as you have will help most 1022 "stockers". It's supposed to be cosmetic only but does have an adverse effect on accuracy in most cases. Some guns are actually helped by the band..Go figure!
The newer issue (2004) Ruger scope mounts are Weaver /tip-off combos. Using 242 (blue) locktite or equivalent will prevent the thing from coming loose.
The older scope bases from Ruger are garbage. You can replace it with a newer style for cheap either through Ruger or a Weaver though any firearms/shooting vendor.
If you want the next step up try the Power Custom for under $15.00

BTW, I've had stockers that do under an inch @ 50 and at least one that wouldn't beat your 2" groups. I converted the latter to a target build and now it drives tacks!

Your 1" @ 40 is certainly respectable for a stocker!

CRITGIT

magnumman44
July 16, 2008, 10:38 PM
My 10/22 carbine in the hogue stock and simmons rimfire 4x scope(22magnum scope) shoots .75" groups at 50 yards and my 10/22 target with Leo VXI 3-9x40 shoots .50" at 50 yards ...all with federal Auto Match ammo.

22-rimfire
July 16, 2008, 11:07 PM
Removing the barrel band as you have will help most 1022 "stockers". It's supposed to be cosmetic only but does have an adverse effect on accuracy in most cases.

That is one of the primary reasons I bought the 10/22 Deluxe with the walnut stock years ago. It just has a Bushnell 4x Banner scope on it. But it does okay with that. I don't shoot it past about 25 yds generally anyway as far as target shooting goes. As it is rigged, it is a fast shooting little woods gun.

This thread has reminded me that I need to shoot it again and see how it does.

Cesiumsponge
July 17, 2008, 02:43 AM
PremiumSauces

Actually, a 2.5" group is 67% larger than a 1.5" group (1.0/1.5).

Now, a 1.5" group is 40% smaller than a 2.5" group (1.0/2.5), but that's a slightly different question.


Actually if you're dealing with a two dimensional measurement (circle) and not a linear measurement, a 2.5" diameter group is 278% larger in area than 1.5".
(pi*1.25^2)/(pi*.75^2). (final area divided by initial area)

Shrinking a 2.5" group an inch would be about 156% reduction in overall area.
(pi*1.25^2)/[(pi*1.25^2)-(pi*.75^2)]. (initial area divided by initial area - final area)

I like the idea of trying different ammos, but there are so many types/brands/makes of 22 ammo out there, you'll never see most of it in regular stores. Outside of Federal match, I've never seen the good Lapua or Eley stuff in stores; I've always had to purchase that online. Eley alone makes a dozen types of match ammo. Cheap ammo will never have the consistency and repeatability of more expensive match ammo. In practical terms, you usually cannot have a tack driver rifle that uses dirt cheap ammo. There might be an exception to this rule once in a blue moon, but an exception does not mean this is not generally true.

I get a lot of fluctuation and dud rounds when I shoot cheap ammo, and its much dirtier. That's to be expected though because it's cheaper. Point of impact also changes, sometimes (in my opinion) quite a bit (4"+ at 100 yards) when you're trying different ammos. If you can find some affordable ammo that shoots well, consistently, and reliably to accuracy standards you can live with, then by all means stick with it. I've just never had much luck with it.

A basic 10/22 might "only" be a $200 rifle, but it's popular enough that you can replace every single part with aftermarket and have whatever you want at whatever level of performance you can afford. I did just that with mine and although it was an expensive road, I am quite happy in it's uniqueness and performance. However I'm peculiar in that I want top notch equipment as I hate the idea of outgrowing my equipment, thus needing to sell or upgrade it. I would rather set my equipment's inherent capabilities way above my own level of skill so I can grow with it and purchase once.

Davo
July 17, 2008, 04:29 AM
My stock 10-22 gets 2 inches with federal bulk.
I replaced my scope with a red dot because it was frustrating.

ArmedBear
July 17, 2008, 12:06 PM
This page shows some targets that compare a carbine (version without barrel band), a T model, and some aftermarket barrels.

They got about 3 MOA with Eley 10X from the carbine.

http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/1022/10_22_targets.html

XDKingslayer
July 17, 2008, 12:30 PM
I bought a new 10/22 carbine and I've put about 300 rounds through it now and I can't get the groups smaller than 2" at 40 Yards which doesn't please me.

Also the scope base keeps vibrating lose so I tightened it up and one of the threads stripped, should I put a very thin coat of epoxy under it?


My 11 year old daughter shoots 1" groups at 25 yards with nothing more than a cheap Wal-Mart BSA Red Dot on her carbine. Their capable of it.

As far as the scope mount coming loose, yes, they will do that. Blue Loctite is your friend.

OOOXOOO
July 17, 2008, 03:36 PM
I get about 2MOA out of my bone stock 10/22 carbine. My father has one as well and it does the same.

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