[Mike Irwin]

Off the Reuters/Yahoo news wire:


CHICAGO (Reuters) - A man who may have been a disgruntled employee shot five people on Wednesday before being wounded and taken into custody, police said.

Police stormed a used auto parts facility and exchanged gunfire with the unidentified gunman before he was taken away in handcuffs, Chicago Police Department spokesman Pat Camden said.

"It appears he could have been a disgruntled employee," Camden told reporters. He did not elaborate.

A local television station, WMAQ-TV, reported one of the victims was killed.

[Carlos Cabeza]

Why can't these types of people just admit their failures and quietly hang themselves or start the car in the garage or something ?????:rolleyes:
I also would like to know where he got the gun.................aren't they illegal in Chi-town ?

[Oracle]

Yep, all those laws preventing ownership of firearms in Chicago are certainly preventing crimes committed with guns, aren't they?

[TallPine]

a used auto parts facility

:barf:

Can't anyone just say "junkyard" anymore ???????


I am assuming this happened on the south side of Chicago, which everyone knows is the baddest part of town, and that the dog played no part in the altercation.

[Silver Bullet]

No, I just heard that the dog was the one who provided the shooter with the gun.

http://www.kahr.com/front.html


I believe it was a K9.



:)

[cpileri]

We can turn this, and every other situation like it to our advantage if we try LOUD and hard enough!

Allow me to ramble and explain...
I was thinking about the tounge-in-cheek comments that "its not an assault rifle, its a HOMELAND DEFENSE RIFLE". Truth be said, that phrase should be adopted in all seriousness! The politicians define their own terms, that way they can "interpret the law" any way they want... I mean, they can DO anything they want.
If we begin to define our own term "Homeland defense arms" then WE drive the train. And those 3 words are all non-evil sounding, so far.

Now back to Chicago...

We LOUD and OFTEN e-mail and call the MEDIA (mostly) and demand an explaination, "Guns are illegal in Chicago. All thier gun laws didn't save those 5 people. Gun control gets people killed. This never happens in Alaska or Vermont!"

Can you please comment, Mr. O'Reilly?

Do not say,"How can this happen?" that allows them the control of the answer which will be: we didn't have enough laws, we need more- here and everywhere to prevent this from happening again.

We need to take and keep control.

C-

[spacemanspiff]

well, to be fair, bad things happen ANYwhere, to ANYone, no matter if there is strict gun control laws or not. the difference is, that should something like that happen in alaska, theres a good chance the disgruntled employee may have fire returned.

we still have crime. our local law enforcement (not putting them down in any way) has been more concerned with 'trivial' matters, like dog leash laws, and has asked for VOLUNTEERS to patrol bike trails in the wake of attempted rapes on our bike trail systems. the priorities definitely need readjustment.

muggings and home invasions are rarer up here, because as john lott discovered, criminals know they would risk getting killed by an armed homeowner or person on the street. criminals expend their efforts casing neighborhoods to find out when homeowners are away.

[El Tejon]

3 years I did inside the belly of beast called Chicago. Three years of continual bleating about "guns causing violence." Three years of seeing disarmed good people pushed around by heavily armed thugs inside the government and out. Three years of hiding my guns and my fellows comparing me to gangsters or maniacs because I knew an automatic rifle from an automatic first down.

Maybe this will be the last straw and the sheople will now realize they need to care for themselves?:(

[DigitalWarrior]

I am sick to death about hearing of last straws. People don't have last straws. Millions of people have been trampled and killed by their government proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no (sometimes explenatives are warranted but still not used in polite company) last straw. We are doomed.

:Wishing for the speedy return of the Gods of the Copybook Headings.:

[Rupestris]

Looks like the toll is now seven. Six plus the shooter dead.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20030827/ap_on_re_us/warehouse_shooting_21

[El Tejon]

Digital, there is always hope (perhaps in vain in Chicago's case).

[C.R.Sam]

We can turn this, and every other situation like it to our advantage if we try LOUD and hard enough!...cpileri Yes .

Cpileri makes good points in his post.

Sam

[Standing Wolf]

If we begin to define our own term "Homeland defense arms" then WE drive the train.

Works for me!

[Starpower]

I am LEO from NW Ind and I can't carry in Chicago. Anywhere else in Illinois is ok, because they recip their state carry laws with ours. But NOT the city of Chicago. I am reminded of a movie about New Yorkers, where the perps are emboldened by an unarmed populace. If they thought about 1/2 of their intended victims would probably be armed, how bold would they be?? As an LEO I am not the least bit afraid of an armed law abiding citizen. Now come Friday night and the golden elixer gets to flowing, put your guns away, alcohol and guns should never be seen together. But then, on this thread, I'm preaching to the choir, right?

[DMK]

Cpileri is right. 6 citizens and one BG dead while waiting for 911 to kick in. If deceased #2 could have owned a legal 1911 instead of 911, the score might have been only one dead citizen and one dead BG.

If only it saves one life! :rolleyes: Bah!

[WonderNine]

No, I just heard that the dog was the one who provided the shooter with the gun.

http://www.kahr.com/front.html


I believe it was a K9.


Impossible. We all know the 9mm was designed to WOUND not KILL.

Anyways, the obvious solution to this is more guns laws. Tougher laws. MORE LAWS!!!!

[Matt1911]

Cpileri,
I like that! I like that alot,and will do as you suggest.Thanks for the idea.

[BTR]

So, does any one know what kind of gun is was (assuming the K9 was a joke)?

[Carlos Cabeza]

Cpeliri's trick works ! The old "Jedi Mind Control" trick of directing a conversation to get a positive response is worthy of any conversation. The key is to carefully choose your words.

[Old Fuff]

Why do we see all of these workplace and school shootings? They never used too happen even though there were plenty of guns around. So what happened? The media happened. Any time one of these things happen anywhere in the country they pick it up and sensationalize it all they can. The big plus is if you can get a few emotional words out of a shocked survivor. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING goes so long, as they say, “it sells papers” (or TV Adds, or whatever). What’s a little blood and gore on one’s hands so long as the circulation or rating numbers go up?

The people who do these things are sick. What they need is a little encouragement and direction. They can get back at those they think did them wrong, and go out in a blaze of media glory. What fruitcake could ask for anything more?

So long as we are held hostage by a corrupt media that only cares for themselves nothing will change. And since they don’t want any attention drawn to themselves a scapegoat will be needed.

That’s why the gun did it …..

[BTR]

I tend to think you are right about the media, though there is the possiblity that the freqency of the these events has not increased, but only the attention given them has made it seem so. Does anyone know?

[another okie]

I don't see how there could possibly be reliable statistics going back more than 70 or 80 years, but if you believe this sort of thing never happened before, do a search for Bath, Michigan, and the name Andrew Kehoe.

[TamThompson]

I guess I'm getting cynical. I know I should be praying for the victims, and the families, yet all that runs through my head is "Please, Lord, let it NOT be a handgun!"

Also, "Please, dear Lord, let this not be spark that ignites a whole new spate of laws like the Brady Bill. Please make others realize that firearm education and enforcement of existing laws can work.)"

Starpower,
Yes. The crime rate in Texas is down significantly since CHL came into effect. No BG in his right mind wants to confront a Texan with a gun! :)

[Waitone]

A few questions leap to mind. Actually they are the same questions I posed immediately after the Meridian, MS Lockheed shooting.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30259&highlight=lockheed


>how many reports did management have of this guy state of mind?

2>How many co-workers had conversations with the guy where he discussed "getting even."

3>What is Lockheed's personnel policy on legally licensed employees carrying handguns on company property?

4>How many of those shot and either wounded or killed were legally licensed to carry concealed handguns?

5>How many people in the vicinity of those wounded or killed were legally licensed to carry concealed hanguns?

I can't wait for the media to answer my questions.

[ed dixon]

Hope we're not reading he's another "fanatic" who "even made his own ammunition."

[PenHolder]

According to the current CNN.com article on the subject:

Salvador Tapia returned to the Windy City Core Supply warehouse in which he had been fired six months ago and killed six of his former co-workers, police said Wednesday.

Tapia was found with a Walther PP .380-caliber semiautomatic pistol and at least one extra clip of ammunition.

Tapia has been arrested 12 times, Cline said. He has an arrest record dating back to 1989, ranging from counts of domestic battery to a DUI to aggravated assault.

I don't care a whole lot about arrest records, but I do wonder what the guy's been convicted of.

(Note: CNN edits their news stories "in-place", so if you go dig up the story, what I've quoted here may have changed. It's a great way to get news out fast, and then erase any mistakes later...)

-PH

[TamThompson]

Darnit, a handgun!
Well, maybe we can use this to our advantage to show that gun banning in Chicago didn't work very well.

[Miss Demeanors]

The news here is stating the shooter was going to get fired or just got fired, I have heard nothing about being fired six months ago.

I hope he had his FOID card........oh wait, that's right, handguns are illegal in Chicago! Better make some new laws because of this, start banning those rifles and shotguns! :rolleyes:

This place is so messed up it's unreal. I'm sorry for the victims and their families but had just ONE person been armed perhaps they wouldn't of had to close down all businesses four blocks away (you know, mad man with a .380 SPRAYING bullets everywhere lol) and there would not be six victims! I hope Richie is happy that his gun laws work oh SO well.:banghead:

[DMK]

Tapia has been arrested 12 times, Cline said. He has an arrest record dating back to 1989, ranging from counts of domestic battery to a DUI to aggravated assault. So then if this guy was a felon and domestic abuser, there's no way that he could have owned a legal firearm in any state. All the laws in Chicago did nothing but prevent his victims from defending themselves on even terms.

[PenHolder]

So then if this guy was a felon and domestic abuser

Remember, <yoda>an arrest does not a felon make</yoda>.

[TheOtherOne]

It's reason like this that I throw my CCW out the window and always comply with my jobs posted sign "no firearms or weapons allowed on premises". The sign makes me feel safe. :(

[Old Fuff]

BTR

If events like this were as frequent as they are now they must have been overlooked by the media, and after observing for over a half-century I think that’s unlikely.

Yes, it is the frequent, over-sensationalizing media reports that inspire the mentally sick who suffer from rejection complexes and seek vengeance. If they are not sure how to go about it the media provides suggestions and directions. One incident inspires another as copycats see themselves getting “15 minutes of glory” and the attention they crave so much. Or if not that, then revenge for the slights, imaginary and real, that they feel they’ve suffered. It might be better for the rest of us if the mentally ill were confined for our and they’re own safety. But in today’s politically correct society that won’t happen.

Someone or something has too be to blame.

So they condemn guns - because people can no longer be held responsible for their actions.

[cpileri]

Sam,Wolf,Carlos,DMK, others: Thanks!

Its what the socialists have been doingto us all these years. Define a term, apply spin to direct people to an opinion of it (yours of course) with an EMOTIONAL response, and you will see results.

Sure its propaganda, but it is also called fighting fire with fire. Just handing it back to them!

Emotions are what sways the average sheeperson (singular of sheeple). They vote because: I just like him. I always vote democrat. No women president.

There are no logical reasons for these statements, but it is what the majority will base their votes on. Time totake back control of the ball and start repealing some of these laws. No more compromising. Lets try to WIN for a change!

We need a political strategist much more savvy than I, but I know that what i mentioned works- heard it directly from the (enemy) horse's mouth!
C-

[10-Ring]

The saying "Going postal" is just too well known. Too many people losing their lives to acts of stupidity. :cuss:

[sctman800]

Starpower, you mentioned carrying anywhere in Illinois except Chicago, I have been under the impression that this was illegal. I am reffering to off duty officers from any state. Ted Nugent was in Illinois recently and had some words directed toward our governor because off duty cops cannot carry in our state. Or is this because he is a deputy sheriff in Michigan? Also, I mean no disrespect tward you or any other LEO but I don't care for a law that allows anyone from any other state to carry while Illinois residents are denied that option. I do feel that myself, you and all law abiding citizens should have that option. Jim.

[Don Gwinn]

Apparently he was fired some months ago. He also had one conviction for carrying a gun illegally and numerous domestic violence arrests that never amounted to anything because his girlfriend refused to continue with the charges/investigation.

[DMK]

TheOtherOne has it right.

cpileri, only one question needs to be asked, over and over again and very loudly:

"Explain to me how 'No guns allowed' will ever stop this?"

Nobody can answer this question, because the premise of gun control is a fallacy.

[PenHolder]

CNN has updated their coverage to include the following gem, identifying the real problem:

"The problem here is easy access to a firearm," (acting police superintendent -PH) Cline told reporters. "Here is someone who never should have had a gun that had a gun."

*sigh* So it begins again.

-PH

[DamnedDirtyApe]

It appears he could have been a disgruntled employee


In almost 40 years of working, I've never been what one could call exactly, completely, comfortably, satisfyingly gruntled. Despite this state, I've never felt enough angst to shoot up a bunch of co-workers.

I'm almost gruntled now, in this present position of mine - I'm as vocationally blissful as I shall probably ever be. Things may change soon, though, cause there's a lot of ungruntled grumbling going on about personnel cuts and changes, and it tends to be infectious.

[xenophon]

quoted from cnn article,

"The problem here is easy access to a firearm," Cline told reporters. "Here is someone who never should have had a gun that had a gun."

No no Mr. police superintendent, the problem is NOT ENOUGH EASY ACCESS TO GUNS BY LAW-ABIDING citizens. Criminals will always have easy access to guns regardless of gun control laws, how about "The problem here is mentally unstable people who decide to kill", or "The problem here is our citizens of chicago were not equipped well enough to defend themselves, and our illogical laws are preventing our citizens from doing so". Or even better, from seeing his arrest record, "The problem is the inability of the system to keep criminals behind bars so as to prevent future repeat offenders". So I guess if he had used a car to run over all the employees in the parking lot, the problem would have been "The problem here is easy access to automobiles.." or if he used a bomb, "The problem here is easy access to bombs". Address the real problem you moron, denying people the RIGHT to defend the themselves, and not escaspe goating on the tools the bad guys use.

I also got a laugh out of the quote:

"Tapia was found with a Walther PP .380-caliber semiautomatic pistol and at least one extra clip of ammunition. "

mmm, a CLIP eh?

So, how are those gun control laws holding up in chicago? Working real well? RIIIIIGGGHT.

[Starpower]

SCTMN80, Ind LEO can carry in Illinois, only because of the recip law with Ind. Michigan? Ha? My son-in-law, who has CCW in Ind, can carry in Michigan due to the recip CCW law, but I CAN"T, because there is no HR 218 (or whatever number it is now) about nationwide carry law for LEO, but in our dept we can't get a CCW because it is not required in IND. Guess they don't want us to carry out of state.

[DMK]

No no Mr. police superintendent, the problem is NOT ENOUGH EASY ACCESS TO GUNS BY LAW-ABIDING citizens. Criminals will always have easy access to guns regardless of gun control laws, how about "The problem here is mentally unstable people who decide to kill", or "The problem here is our citizens of chicago were not equipped well enough to defend themselves, and our illogical laws are preventing our citizens from doing so". Or even better, from seeing his arrest record, "The problem is the inability of the system to keep criminals behind bars so as to prevent future repeat offenders". So I guess if he had used a car to run over all the employees in the parking lot, the problem would have been "The problem here is easy access to automobiles.." or if he used a bomb, "The problem here is easy access to bombs". Address the real problem you moron, denying people the RIGHT to defend the themselves, and not escaspe goating on the tools the bad guys use.
Well put, xenophon.

[Hutch]

Yeah, that "easy access" bullpoop quote made onto NPR during my drive h ome yesterday. :banghead: Man, I'd love to get a chance to confront someone offering such an utterance on air and ask what law could have prevented this tragedy. The firearm he used is not covered by the AWB '94, or even the proposed draconian replacement. My guess is that we'll soon be treated of lurid tales about where he got the PP "on the street". Sigh:rolleyes:

[TamThompson]

I guess a dead giveaway that the writer has no clue about guns is when they call a magazine a "clip." They're probably thinking it sounds scarier. :banghead:

TED NUGENT is a deputy SHERIFF in Michigan???

:what:

[TamThompson]

I will confess to taking some slight sliver of comfort in the fact that the handgun used in the Chicago shooting was *not* a Glock. Glock's have a scary enough reputation among sheeple--such a thing would no doubt send many of them clear over the edge. (My apologies to Walther owners, but I'm just being honest about how I feel. Glocks get picked on a LOT.)

[Carlos Cabeza]

"The problem here is easy access to a firearm," (acting police superintendent -PH) Cline told reporters. "Here is someone who never should have had a gun that had a gun."

THIS IS ONLY MOUTHING THE WORDS THAT THE SHEEPLE WANT TO HEAR. :fire: When will intelligence overcome emotion ?
CRIMINALS DO NOT OBEY LAWS ! The city of Chicago is the one that disarmed it's lawabiding citizens and should bear some of the responsibility.

P.S. My corporation has the 30.06 sign on all entrances. Do I obey it ? NO !
My boss knows I do not follow the rule and says it does not bother him. He stated that he finds some comfort in the fact and appreciates my willingness to disobey, But said he cannot protect me from being dismissed if I am found out by upper management. I said OK Whatever..............;)

[TheOtherOne]

Why doesn't the acting police superintendent practice what he's preaching? If the problem is easy access to guns, why does he even have access to one of the evil things and why did the swat team that took the guy out have to use them?

[greyhound]

Why doesn't the acting police superintendent practice what he's preaching?

Doesn't he mean CRIMINALS' easy access to guns? Cause the great unwashed sure don't have easy legal access to guns. Idiot.:cuss:

[coldshot03/04]

Just heard that this guy was a Convicted "FELON".
Was he really carrying a 380acp?

[cpileri]

Carlos,
Intelligence will NEVER overcome emotion in the number of people necessary to get the majority of votes. politicians know this- the ones that hold office year after year do anyway.
About the 20% of people who DO think; they have a choice: honesty or deceit. If you honesty follow true premises to their logical conclusion adn vote that way-
lets say, for sake of this target audience, premise: People who desire to harm others exist. Weapons make your desire to harm others easier to realize. People use weapons to harm others. People also desire to be safe from harm. Weapons make your desire to defend against those who would harm you easier to realize. therefore, you should have a weapon with which to defend yourself.
- then you are honest.
But just try to use that on a group of 'average people' you'll either lose them outright, or they'll lose interest before you're finished. You'll never convince them.

The deceitful thinker knows the truth, but chooses to deceive others for the perceived advantage it gives them over others. Our many anti-gun politicians fall into this category. They know EXACTLY what they're doing- so you don't have to convince them; and they'll never admit the truth. So don't waste your time.

But even the less-than-average intellect can understand, "The police ain't everywhere at once. If that guy was trying to kill me, I'd get him first!"
Or, "he shot your daddy. You gonna stand for that?!?!"

You get the idea. We need to try to convince the 60% of people we CAN reach.

BTW: notice I said 20% of people DO think. More like 40-50% of people are intelligent enough to do so, but they are swayed by emotions (i.e. propaganda).

And they can sway back just as well!

Does anyone else understand what i am trying to get us to do, here?

C-

[cpileri]

DMK,
If you get to ask that question in the context of a controlled speaking environment or as a rhetorical, then that's OK. But don't ever give THEM the chance to actually answer it. The answer will be," If we get them ALL we will be safe."
And the sheep who are ALREADY BIASED AGAINST YOU will bleat, yessss yeeeesssss.
And you will have lost.
And politics is about winning.

You can make an affirmative statement based on your question like: Not allowing any guns will never stop this.

That doesn't encourage discussion as much, and it registers in sheeple's minds as a 'statement of fact'.

Chinks in the armor...
C-

[Miss Demeanors]

Here is the article from Chicago Tribune:


Ex-worker’s rampage leaves 7 dead


A man with an arrest record for weapons and other violent offenses killed six people in a South Side warehouse from which he was fired six months ago, police said.

The dead included two brothers who owned the business and one of their sons along with three other co-workers.



Armed with a semi-automatic pistol, the man engaged in a running gun battle with police. Officers charged the building and fatally shot him when he allegedly refused to drop his weapon.

The gunman was identified as Salvador Tapia, 36. His address was unknown.

"This morning, at 8:36, a former employee opened fire in the auto supply warehouse where he once worked. As a result, six people have been murdered," said acting Chicago Police Supt. Phil Cline.

Speaking at an afternoon news conference to discuss the incident, Cline called it "a senseless tragedy" and praised the "heroic police officers" who risked their lives when they charged into the warehouse — a maze of barrels, crates, containers and narrow aisles.

The incident began for police at 8:37 a.m., when 9th District officers responded to reports of shots being fired at Windy City Core Supply Inc., an auto parts salvage company in the 3900 block of South Wallace Street in the city's Bridgeport neighborhood.

There they encountered a man who had hobbled out of the building with his hands tied behind his back, Cline said. He told police he had been tied up by the offender but escaped as the gunman walked around inside the building, shooting employees.

"We know he tied up one victim inside and started killing the other victims," Cline said. He said police don't know why Tapia spared the one co-worker.

Police tried to enter but repeatedly were driven off by the gunman's fire. A short time later, a police hostage barricade team arrived and, determining there were wounded people inside, decided to charge the building.

"It was very difficult for our officers," Cline said. "It's a warehouse of used engine parts and hundreds of 55-gallon drums filled with engine parts, crates (and) containers, with very little room to maneuver in there. You have to go down one of these passageways, and that's where he was hiding, behind one of these boxes."

Police ordered Tapia to drop his gun and shot him when he refused. He was taken to Stroger Hospital of Cook County, where he was pronounced dead.

Some of his victims were declared dead at the scene, and others were pronounced dead at Stroger and at Mercy Hospital and Medical Center. The victims' bodies were taken to the Cook County medical examiner's office.

Windy City fired Tapia, a laborer, six months ago for poor performance — for showing up late for work, and for causing trouble there, Cline said.

The suspect had been arrested 12 times in the last 14 years, including a 1989 conviction for unlawful use of weapons, for which he received a year's probation, Cline said.

He was arrested again in 1992 for a weapons offense, but the charge was dropped. Tapia also had two arrests for aggravated assault and four for domestic battery, plus traffic and other offenses, Cline said

While gunshots were being exhanged this morning, police evacuated all buildings within a block of the auto parts firm.

Pamela George, 38, who works as a cook and waitress at Dox Grill across the street, said she was cooking when a worker from the business ran into the restaurant frantically asking for a phone.

"He said someone was in there shooting. He was really scared, like a chicken with its head cut off,'' she said.

George said police swarmed the site within five minutes and evacuated the restaurant.

Al Martinez, owner of a business about a half block from the shooting scene, said he was at work when he heard the sound of gunfire.

"We saw a guy shooting at police officers outside the building and saw people running around like crazy,'' said Martinez, who owns Midway Pallets. "We came and saw all the cops running, hiding behind cars.''

Among the victims identified by the Cook County medical examiner's office were brothers and owners Alan Weiner, 50, of Wilmette, and Howard Weiner, 59, of Northbrook. Daniel Weiner, 30, Howard's son, was also killed, officials said.

The other victims were identified as Calvin Ramsey, 44, Robert Taylor, 53, and Juan Valles, 34, all of Chicago.

Taylor had been married more than 20 years with four children and served as the deacon of his church, said his sister, Minnie Taylor.

"He was well loved, well liked," she said. "His smile, his kindnesss, he always had something kind to say."

Today's shooting was the most serious incident of workplace rage locally in the last three years.

On Feb. 5, 2001, William D. Baker, a former employer of Navistar International, brought a cache of guns to the company's Melrose Park diesel engine plant and killed four people and wounded four others before killing himself. Baker was one day away from starting a federal prison term for a felony conviction for stealing from Navistar.

CLTV and the Associated Press contributed to this story.
Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune

[aikidoka-mks]

I listen to wls am radio during work. They may have quite a few conservative talk show hosts but their news reporting is typical for chicago. Hearing the easy access to firearms line nearly blew my mind as well as saying he had 2 clips so was heavily armed. Fortunately I work in Indiana and several co-workers are pro-gun.

Mark