[ReadyontheRight]

Hypothetical poll --

Suppose...Howard Dean comes out as strongly pro-gun -- supports letting the AWB sunset, states that 2nd Amendment is an individual right, starts quoting the founding fathers on the importance of RKBA, even talks about eliminating some of the more ridiculous federal gun laws, etc.

Suppose...George Bush does not chage his current stance on gun issues.

For whom would you vote in November 2004?

[Master Blaster]

And if I had a million dollars I would be a millionaire!!!!

I heard the Dean Pro-gun nonsense on the NET, so I went to his site to see for my self.

He is for common sense gun control, to keep the children safe.

He thinks that we need background checks for all transfers.

He supports the AWB, and thinks Bush is talking out of both sides of his mouth cause he has not supported the NEW Expanded AWB!!!

So when my dog starts ****ing Gold dubloons I will vote for this liar *sshole

In fact the crapola on his site sounds like Hillary Clintoon, and the Brady Center wrote his positions on everything even healthcare.

[FPrice]

There are very few Democrats I trust.

Howard Dean ain't one of them.

I am upset at Bush for his apparent support of the AWB (even if it was just through his press secretary) but since his inauguration there has been a noticeable drop in the amount of anti-gun propaganda and agenda from the White House.

[Master Blaster]

Quote from his site:


""Vermont has the lowest homicide rate in the United States. During my eleven years as Governor, the highest number of murders in a single year was 25 and the lowest number was five. Over half of these were domestic assaults, and the majority were not committed with a firearm.

If you say “gun control” in Vermont, Tennessee, or Colorado, people think it means taking away their hunting rifle. If you say "gun control" in New York City or Los Angeles, people are relieved at the prospect of having Uzis or illegal handguns taken off the streets. They’re both right. That’s why I think Vermont ought to be able to have a different set of laws than California.

I believe the federal gun laws we have—like the Brady Bill—are important, and I would veto any attempt to repeal or gut them. The Assault Weapons Ban expires next year, and it should be renewed. Although President Bush has claimed he supports renewing it, he is talking out both sides of his mouth; his staff has signaled that he doesn’t want or expect Congress to renew the ban, and that is wrong.

I don’t think we need a lot of new federal laws. But we do need to do a few things at the federal level, like requiring Insta-Check on all retail and gun show sales. We also must do a better job of enforcing the laws on the books. President Bush promised to be tough in enforcing gun laws, but his Administration has prosecuted only about 2% of all gun crimes and they are virtually ignoring 20 of the 22 major federal gun laws on the books. That is an abysmal record and as President, I’d make tough enforcement a reality, not just political rhetoric.

After that, I would let the states decide for themselves what, if any, additional gun safety laws they want. Just as we resist attempts by President Bush to dictate to the states how we run our school systems and what kind of welfare programs to have, we need to resist attempts to tell states how to deal with guns beyond existing federal law and fixing a few loopholes and problems. ""


End of Quote



So he Supports every Federal Law on the books, and will fight to keep them there, and he encourages the individual states to pass as many common sense laws as they like. :barf: :uhoh: :barf: :fire: :banghead: :fire: :barf:

[ReadyontheRight]

Master Blaster I agree -- Dean is pro-gun like I'm a Socialist.

BUT -- What if Dean campaigns as strongly pro-gun? He really has nothing to lose. I just hope he keeps drinking his own bathwater and thinks he can win on an anti-war campaign.

It was only a few decades ago when Hubert Humphrey said:

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms. This is not to say that firearms should not be very carefully used and that definite rules of precaution should not be taught and enforced. But the right of the citizen to bear arms is just one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible."

Now Republicans won't even support RKBA that strongly.

[Master Blaster]

:barf: www.deanforamerica.com:barf:

He enthusiastically supports all gun control, and wants every state to go to town.

I wonder which federal laws he thinks are not being enforced???
Heck he could get the ATF to subpeona all the records of the folks selling them thar babby killin high cap magazines from the former ussr, and start doing no knocks on everyone that bought them asking them to prove that they are not post ban. Wouldn't that be special. Maybe they could nicely ask you to prove that the parts in YOUR SAR-1 were made in the USA.

I do wish we had some other alternative than Bush, but he is the lesser of the evils right now.

[Tamara]

Cthulhu in '04! Why settle for the lesser evil?

[Bigjake]

LMAO tam

[Standing Wolf]

Suppose...Howard Dean comes out as strongly pro-gun -- supports letting the AWB sunset, states that 2nd Amendment is an individual right, starts quoting the founding fathers on the importance of RKBA, even talks about eliminating some of the more ridiculous federal gun laws, etc.

Is this before or after it rains nickels, pigs start flying around barn yards, and the check that's supposed to be in the mail actually gets delivered?

Leftists are moral and intellectual parasites.

[Jeff]

This dingleberry banned SPARKLERS because he was a physician and he "saw what they did to children's bare feet when stepped on."

I certainly don't trust him on gun rights, if party sparklers give him the willies.

[Jeff]

Is this before or after it rains nickels, pigs start flying around barn yards, and the check that's supposed to be in the mail actually gets delivered?


It's right around the same time Mike Tyson becomes an urbane gentleman, Micheal Moore starts making truthful commentary, and Hollywood makes a favorable biopic on Ronald Reagan.

[SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI]

... what if Spartacus had a Stuka?

[Old Fuff]

If "Double-Speak" Dean really started talking like a gun-right's supporter he'd lose most of the Democrat Party's liberal/socialist base - and that's something he can't afford too do. On the other hand he knows that the party's stance on gun control cost Al Gore the election, when he couldn't even carry his own home state. Dean is like all the other Democrats, but he's smart enough to try and not sound like it. If he was (is) elected along with a Democrat controlled Congress you would see all the popular gun control proposals on the fast track.

If anyone really believes this guy I have some property in Florida I'd like to sell you along with a bridge in Brooklyn ....

[Standing Wolf]

Trusting representatives of the Democratic (sic) party anywhere near the nation's civil rights is like trusting coyotes to guard the hen house. Howie may be cunning enough to shut up on the topic of the Second Amendment, but cunning has nothing to do with honor, decency, civic duty, patriotism, and respect for Americans.

[Quartus]

UT -- What if Dean campaigns as strongly pro-gun?


<shrug> That's a no-brainer. A lot of stupid gun owners would vote for him.

The rest of us would know he's lying.

And HIS people would have been quietly told that it was campaign smoke. Since they have no problem with lying, as long as it's done by THEIR people, they'd pretend to be upset with him and then go vote for him.

[Dilettante]

I won't vote for somebody who opposed Gulf War II. We had to get that SOB out of power in Iraq and we should have done it years ago.
We are still involved in a long-term cold conflict and I cannot support anyone who doesn't think in terms of winning it.

[Bigjake]

i think it was best said here

So when my dog starts ****ing Gold dubloons I will vote for this liar *sshole

thats where i stand

[NewShooter78]

I wouldn't trust either of them with my gun rights. Libertarian party all the way.

[Chris Rhines]

I'd vote for None of the Above, and hope to hell that he gets elected.
But if you must vote, vote LP.

- Chris

[MrAcheson]

I seem to remember back in '92 Bill Clinton was being called a moderate everywhere. Everyone also said that his lack of moral fortitude would not effect his presidency. 8 years and multiple Clinton scandals later we know different.

I'd rather not make the same mistake again with Howard Dean. If he got into the presidency I have every belief that he would do exactly what all moderate democrats do... speak republican on values that appeal to him and then vote the democratic party line anyway.

[Dorrin79]

jeebus, people. the question is a hypothetical!

I am under no illusions that Dean is pro-gun. After al-Gore's loss in 2000 the Dems have simply decided to stop being so vocal about gun control.

That said, if Dean came out saying 1) 2A is an individual right, 2)AWB should sunset, and C) state firearm laws are rendered unconstitutional by the 2nd and 14th amendments.... I would vote for him instead of Bush.

I realize that this will not happen - but that's why it's a hypothetical.

:cool:

[Lone_Gunman]

No, I still wouldn't vote for Dean, even if he made the claim that he was pro 2A, etc.

If Hillary Clinton came out and made the same statements (which is about as likely as Dean doing it), would you guys vote for her also?

[Zedicus]

Well I don't vote, and never plan to.

Why?

Simple, The Biggest Liar allways Wins!.
so what's the point in bothering?

[ReadyontheRight]

Glad to see THRers can recognize this guy for what he is. Please go forth and spread the gospel.

I'm personally hoping that his fake pro-gun stance sticks just enough to move Bush further toward RKBA.

[Iain]

Ready - can I take the liberty of rephrasing your hypothetical to get across the point I feel you were trying to make:

Candidate A of the Democratic Party emerges. He is very pro-2A.

Would you vote for Candidate A ahead of Bush or would you vote other?

-------

Forgive me if I have missed your point Ready.

[rick_reno]

From Dean's website "I believe the federal gun laws we have—like the Brady Bill—are important, and I would veto any attempt to repeal or gut them. The Assault Weapons Ban expires next year, and it should be renewed."

As Zippy used to say "Yow. Pass the taco sauce, this Ding Dong is a little dry"

Let's see now, we've got a leading Democrat supporting the Brady Bill and renewal of the assault weapon law. Ok.

But wait, we've got a Republican President who supports the Brady Bill and the renewal of the assault weapon law. Ok.

I look at which one of these two can be manipulated by his party to actively promote anti-gun legislation. Which one of these two has, in their respective parties - more powerful anti-gun supporters?

Golly gee Elmer, I think I'd have to vote for that guy from Texas.

This ain't rocket science, while the Republicans aren't perfect, it's the Democrats that have consistently pushed and passed the majority of the anti-gun legislation we have seen.

[Duncan Idaho]

I was unable to vote in your poll. ROTFLMFAO wasn't one of the options in your poll. :rolleyes:

[grampster]

What Duncan says.....:D

[Duncan Idaho]

St. Johns,

You must have missed Standing Wolf's weather, farm, and business report. Which was dead-bang on by by the way.

We just finished having a pro Second Amendment President courtesy of the Demorat party. Bubba Klinton went so far as to put on duck-hunting duds in his first campaign in order to assure us that he was on "our side".

As Quartus and others have pointed out, if a leading socialist rat comes out as "pro-gun", a lot of fools will believe him. The rest of us will know that he/she is LYING.

People simply cannot be self-assured, self-reliant, (i.e. armed) and dependent upon the state for cradle to grave slavery at the same time. The two are as mutually exclusive as possible. If you need proof, ask one of the serfs in your country - that used to own personal defense firearms - where those firearms are today. Go ahead, ask them. :rolleyes:

[Iain]

So that's no to a vote for a pro 2A Democrat then.

[Mark Tyson]

Replace Dean with Zell Miller and then I would be sold.

[Duncan Idaho]

So that's no to a vote for a pro 2A Democrat then.It is more of a declarative statement that no such thing exists. The last truly pro-gun Democrat that existed was - ironically enough - President John F. Kennedy.


http://www.hkweaponsystems.com/images/quotes/jkennedy.gif


He said things like:

"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."

-John F. Kennedy


"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

-John F. Kennedy


"I am pleased to accept Life Membership in the National Rifle Association and extend to your organization every good wish for continued success."

-John F. Kennedy, March 20, 1961


"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."

-Senator John F. Kennedy, April 1960



His like no longer exists within the boundaries of anything remotely associated with the Demorat party.

[ReadyontheRight]

Ready - can I take the liberty of rephrasing your hypothetical to get across the point I feel you were trying to make:Candidate A of the Democratic Party emerges. He is very pro-2A.

Would you vote for Candidate A ahead of Bush or would you vote other?


Exactly! We need to push the Republican leadership further toward RKBA.

If a Democrat panders even a little bit to the hunters out there, he or she will get a boatload of crossover votes! I'm not talking the THR regulars, but the 80 of the 80/20 who beleve what they read in USA Today (i.e. the Dean=Pro Gun garbage I've been hearing lately.:barf: )

We need to let the Republican leadership know that they need to take at least as strong an RKBA stance as JFK did in 1960. Only 51% of THR members voted for Bush at this point in my little hypothetical. Expand that to a voting populace that knows 1/10 or 1/100 of the background your average THR member knows about RKBA.

Ashcroft stated that RKBA is an individual right. Great. But he is only pointing out a fundamental truth (and getting slammed by the vocal minority for it) and he is not running. Bush will win 2004 in a landslide, but 2008 will splnter the Repubs again if we all don't help them open their eyes.

[Joe Demko]

His like no longer exists within the boundaries of anything remotely associated with the Demorat party.

You won't find anybody that pro-2A among the Repugs, either. It is a puzzlement how so many otherwise very bright people continue to suck in for the Repug "at least we ain't the Democrats" line on the 2A. If you think that either of the two major parties is your friend when it comes to guns, then you are out of touch with reality.

[fallingblock]

:barf:

[revlar]

Here's a hypothetical for you -

What if the 5.66% of the (presumably) pro-RKBA people who took the time to vote in this poll only to say they don't vote - what if they actually DID vote in an election?

What a difference that could make.

[geegee]

There have been plenty of Dems that said they were either Pro-2nd, or not anti, but typically here's what happens. At some point either before the election, or even when they decide to go to a national office, the powers that be for the Democratic Party will make it crystal clear that said candidate would find their life much easier, and could count on more political $upport, if they just see the error of their ways. Toe the line.

Remember, at one time Sen. Al Gore was a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. geegee

[Sean Smith]

Cthulhu in '04! Why settle for the lesser evil?

http://www.cthulhu.org/cthulhu/index.html

:evil:

[Mark Tyson]

Cthulhu - haven't heard that name in a while. He's the REAL reason we've hung on to all those nuclear weapons after the cold war. You know, I think we have a board member here by that name actually. I'd like to ask him how life is at the bottom of the Pacific.

[WyldOne]

Well I'm strongly leaning toward Dean anyway. :) So if he actually hypothetically, of course, campaigned as being pro-RKBA, that would only sweeten the deal. That's, the best I can remember at 2am, pretty much the only thing that's holding me back at the moment anyway. :)

But I'm not getting behind anyone, yet. They have to earn my vote. And unless they do that, I shall be casting an empty ballot.

[Mark Tyson]

I wanted to like Dean - I really did. I agree with him on a lot of stuff. But he's just not pro-RKBA, and that is a vote breaker for me. I think this thread should be entitled "Bush vs. the Reincarnation of JFK" - then see how people would vote.

[Quartus]

JFK was more conservative than Bush. He'd probably have viewed Dean as a traitor.


He's certainly a socialist. And that is NOT a position that is compatible with freedom.

[clubsoda22]

I'm not a single issue voter, though the AWB does weigh heavily this election. Here's how i'm planing to vote. I don't care if dean says he supports the AWB because it's out of his control. Bush will be pres when it sunsets. I'm an independent, heres how i will vote under different circumstances.

Dean vs Bush if AWB sunsets -- Dean
Dean vs Bush if AWB is renewed -- 3rd party
Any other Dem vs Bush regardless of AWB - 3rd party

Dean isn't rabidly anti gun. Seems like he's for states doing whatever states want to do (as far as guns go) and the rest of what he is saying is for show. I'd love to vote for him because i like his politics. However, if the AWB gets renewed i'll vote 3rd party out of spite. Notice that Bush is never an option. You couldn't get me to re-elect Bush if you hooked my balls to a car battery.

[Dan from MI]

After 8 years of Adolf Klintler there is no way I would ever vote for a democrat for president unless I see a massive shift on guns away from the Henry Waxmans, Ted Kennedys, and John Conyers wings of the party.

Unfortunatly, we will have two leftists running against each other in Bush and the democrat running. They both suck, but as of now, I'd be voting for Bush under protest against Dean, who I think is the lessest of the dem evils running. I'd vote for Bush in a minute over scum like Gephardt, the Communist Kerry, *******, or Mr. Censorship Lieberman.

If it's Dean vs Bush, the bottom line is this, and I'm a GOP party member.

AWB signed - I vote Libertarian for president and GOP for the rest.
AWB not signed - I hold my nose and vote for Bush.
Bush has a primary opponent - I'll strongly consider voting for him if it's not another leftist like McStain.

[Dan from MI]

BTW - Dean is not pro-gun. He's for the AW ban and is against bills that protect gun manufacturers from ambulance chasers like John Edwards.

Bush isn't pro-gun either as far as I'm concerned.