[elChupacabra!]

Ok guys, many of you have been extremely helpful to me in the last week answering several questions I have, and I've got just a couple more.

I've completed loading 80 rounds of .223 - 4 batches of 20 rounds with 5 rounds each at a given powder weight, increasing up to just below max pressure (.2 -.5gr less, this is target shooting not hunting so I don't need the extra velocity, would rather be safe for my first set of workups and save my brass / gun from too much wear and tear anyways) for the top 5 rounds (this is for 2 different bullet weights and 2 different types of powders per bullet, hence 4 batches). I'm going to the range tomorrow morning to shoot them all and determine what my rifle likes best.

Here is my issue:

Whether I am FL resizing a case or seating a bullet, I get maybe .002-.003" in variation. Not all the time - I shoot for 1.455" headspace length when FL resizing and COAL of 2.259" when seating bullets (for the heavy 77gr bullets), and about half the time I hit that just right. But the other half of the time, that headspace length may go down to 1.454" or up to 1.456", and the COAL may be 2.258" to 2.260." I made sure all my loaded rounds fit in a magazine so I know they are all less than 2.260" so I guess there's no problem there, and plenty of yall have already mentioned to me that .002" variation in FL resizing length isn't a big problem. The thing is, I know what I should be shooting for as a median, but I'm still a little uncertain as to how much variation is acceptable, and in what critical dimensions. Obviously, when I measured powder I did it all by hand on the scale, measuring every charge and making it perfect down to the individual stick of powder... but as far as the dimensions created from the press, I don't know whether .002"-.003" variation is a serious issue.

For bullet seating I use a RCBS competition micrometer adjustable seating die, and the corresponding FL sizing die. They are black oxide and seem pretty nice - I know that the thimble isn't rotating on me when I seat those bullets, at least, cause I'm looking right at it.

Aside from variation that is inevitable, if that's the case, the only other thing I can think of is this:

I've got my press mounted on a bench I bought from Workshop Tools - it's a cheap import that I had to assemble myself. Problem is some of the pilot holes for the bolts holding it together weren't straight so I couldn't get the bench top all the way flush (maybe .1" or .2" between the top of the bench and the frame) on the right side where it meets the frame, which happens to be the side the press is bolted to. That means that there was a little bit of play at the end of the stroke throwing the lever, with the whole top of the bench flexing with the press as I applied the last bit of force.

Now, last night when it occurred to me that this could be causing the variation, maybe absorbing some of the force when I push the lever at the end of the throw and causing some operations to fall shorter than others, I drilled a new pilot hole and fixed the bench. But that didn't occur to me until I had spent all week working up 4 batches (80 rounds) of ammo. :(

So my question is, does .002-.003" variation in COAL and headspace length seem like a natural thing that just happens, or is it enough that I should doubt the results of my workups tomorrow? Also note that I'll be shooting in good conditions (assuming the weather holds) on a warm day off a bench, front rest and sandbags, so it SHOULD give good results, unless I botched everything already.

I know this is a long post, thanks in advance for taking the time to read it and sharing your wisdom.

[elChupacabra!]

Or maybe it's just that I'm a little nervous about shooting my first handloads, afraid I might blow my gun up or my hand off or just shoot terrible groups with everything I've loaded :(

[Jim Watson]

Don't worry about the OAL. The ragged edge on the usual target hollowpoint can make it vary more than that. I presume your seating die contacts the bullets down on the ogive where they are more consistent. Mine does.

I don't check and recheck cartridge headspace dimensions, don't even have the gauge. When I get the die adjusted where the case falls between the steps on a Wilson solid gauge, I figure I am in good shape.

[elChupacabra!]

Jim,

Ok, that's good to hear about COAL - I know everybody always says "seat to magazine length" or "seat to .002 off the lands" and I know some people feel strongly that keeping that "jump" to the rifling to a minimum is very good for accuracy, but I didn't know if the .002" - .003" variation there might make some "jump" enough more than others that I would see it on the target. I guess not... I think I probably just need to relax and shoot and see what happens. Second guessing yourself sucks, especially when you have no experience, no frame of reference established yet to know what's right, what's wrong and what's ok / in the middle :uhoh:

[SSN Vet]

I'm not the worlds most experienced reloader, but from the perspective of an manufacturing engineer, if you're holding +/- .0015, I'd say you are doing VERY, VERY well.

As for safety.... Your not pushing max. loads, so don't sweat it. Examine for signs of overpressure on the first firings of the heavier loads and let your observations guide you.

I'll wager that far more than half of the guys out ther reloading .223 don't have any kind of head space guage at all, but rather, they simply chamber check the first rounds loaded.

Not every one can afford every possible reloading accessory out there. And as far as accuracy goes, unless your shooting a scoped rifle supported on the bench, I don't think you'll ever see the differenc.

[elChupacabra!]

SSNVet,

Thanks for the input... I'm sure that, once I get up to the production level, that tolerance might open up a bit, but since this is my first set of workups and my first reloads in general, I'm going VERY slow and measuring just about everything... I want this to be as close to perfect as I can get it, and from what I hear from you and Jim so far, it sounds like I'm close enough.

Also, FWIW, I spend alot of my time shooting with my BUIS since it's a little more challenging (and maybe more fun? To me at least) but I also do have a scope on a QD Larue Tactial mount, and I know the rifle can do .75" with factory ammo so I do want it to be able to do AT LEAST as well with my precision handloads. I'm not a bench shooter, but I do occasionally put the bipod on the front end and try to print some nice tiny groups from the prone position, so I want to be sure that I can make ammunition capable of doing so at least some of the time. The rest of the time, I'll crank out 55gr plinking ammo... but I want my 77gr Nosler OTM (Mk262 Mod 0 immitation) ammo to be absolutely perfect, if possible.

Thanks again for the input.

[SSN Vet]

again, I'm not any kind of guru....but I'm finding that much of the guidance people post is specific to their circumstances and not unniversal.

"seat to .002 off the lands"

If loading for max. accuracy in a bolt action bench rest rifle, this seems to be SOP. But if you're loading for an auto-loader, I think that advice takes a back seat to feeding concerns, etc...

One of the things that turned me on about reloading was to see just how far you can take it. But if your like me and still in the average Joe stage of the game and building you skills and knowledge base. All of the information that bench rest guys and extreme distance guys put out there can be very intimidating.

Waiting for Fred to chime in and set me straight though...

[elChupacabra!]

SSN,

Yah, I hear what you mean about that - I can't wait til I'm UP TO the average Joe level! :what: Where I am now I WANT tomorrow to produce some .25moa groups, but realistically, even being as careful and thoughtful, methodical and slow as possible, I don't think I have the experience base built up yet... which is why I appreciate all of yall's input so much :D

Who knows, maybe I'll suprise myself and produce some good loads out of this... but it really can be intimidating, so I appreciate yall's encouragement to not get too bogged down in the pursuit of perfection that might not be that obtainable (or even important, at my point in the game).

[brickeyee]

How are you measuring COL?

The bullets have enough variation from the ogive that the bullet seater worked from to the actual tip of the bullet to produce errors as large as you are seeing.

While COL needs attention for magazine and feeding issues, they are rarely sensitive to a few thousandths variation.

Accuracy is affected more by the distance from ogive to rifling, and you need a bullet comparator to measure off the ogive and ignore the actual tip of the bullet.
Here are a bunch of them http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RESDTCO&type=store

The base link to Sinclair is http://www.sinclairintl.com/catalog2.html

[elChupacabra!]

Brickeyee,

That's something I hadn't considered - I'm just dropping the round into the calipers and taking a reading from case head to the point of the bullet... I think I might look into one of those bullet comparators, if you think that measurement might provide me with a meaningful improvement in accuracy through an AR? (I say this since I can't get TOO close to the lands for magazine feeding purposes).

[Roccobro]

Individual bullets at the tips are not as consistent as their ogives for measuring. I'd get a set of the Hornady Comparator stuff to clamp onto your calipers.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=231904&t=11082005

Justin

[mkl]

Nothing wrong with that variation in headspace, but I am curious as to how your are measuring it. I would suspect that the headspace in rifle chambers could vary that much.

One word of advice I would suggest that has not been mentioned. If you are using only two powder weights per powder/bullet combination, you may "skip" over the maximum accuracy weight for a particular powder.

Starting at the minimum and working up in 0.3 to 0.5 grain increments may get you a better sample of what your rifle can do with a particular powder for a given bullet. Nothing wrong with stopping a little from the top load as you are just starting out and learning to read pressure signs. Very, very seldom does the best accuracy come from the maximum load.

Good luck at the range, and welcome to the fascinating hobby of reloading.

[elChupacabra!]

MKL,

Thanks for your insight.

To answer your question, I am using a Hornady headspace comparator in conjunction with my calipers. With the correct bushing inserted, it measures to the datum line on the case to tell me how much I have resized. I measured several once-fired cases and determined my chamber is about 1.458" so I resize to 1.455" or so.

Regarding powder weights, I think I may not have been clear - I am using two TYPES of powder per bullet, but actually have 4 WEIGHTS per BATCH (bullet / powder combo). It goes like this:

55gr Hornady FMJBT
IMR4198 (was given 3 lbs of it so I HAVE to try to use it! :D)
5 rds - 19.5gr
5 rds - 20.0gr
5 rds - 20.5gr
5 rds - 21.0gr

55gr Hornady FMJBT
IMR3031 (given 1lb of it so figured why not? Maybe it'll work!)
5 rds - 23.0gr
5 rds - 23.5gr
5 rds - 24.0gr
5 rds - 24.5gr

77gr Nosler OTM
Varget
5 rds - 22.5gr
5 rds - 23.0gr
5 rds - 23.5gr
5 rds - 24.0gr

77gr Nosler OTM
IMR 3031 (hey a load for this combo is listed so I figured it might be worth it if I can get one to work, if not, oh well)
5 rds - 19.5gr
5 rds - 20.0gr
5 rds - 20.5gr
5 rds - 21.0gr

Also, for those of you who may be concerned, all of the powder given to me was sealed in original cans, never opened, so I do know that it is what it should be. There is no wierd odor (sulfur), corrosion or anything like that, so I do believe it's safe to use.

As far as the max loads, I believe that my highest power load for each of these is at or below published maxes for the most recent (i.e. lowest power) data in the Lee manual 2nd Ed which I have (I want to say that one of these loads might not have been in the Lee manual so I might have got the data from the Hogdgon website... not sure don't hold me to it? But I have verified all these max loads from reputable sources and, where possible, from 2-3 sources).

Still, if anyone sees this and thinks I may be going too high, please let me know.

Also, as a disclaimer, don't try this in your rifle, I don't even know any of it works in MY rifle, etc.etc.etc.etc.

[30Cal]

As odd as it may seem, the tips don't really have anything to do with where the bullet goes on the target. You can flatten them or mangle them badly and it won't really do anything.

The seating die should be pushing pretty close to the ogive, not the tip.

[mkl]

Yes, I did misunderstand how your were loading your test rounds.

Looks like you got it nailed!!!

If one of your test loads really looks good, then vary around that powder weight by 0.2 grains or so and see what you get. Takes time, but those ragged one-hole five-shot groups give great satisfaction to those of us that handload. Sort of makes all the testing hassle worth while.

Have fun.

[elChupacabra!]

mkl,

Good idea - I'd probaby be satisfied with anything from 1-1.5moa out of the 55gr loads (since they will be shot most often at scaled targets ala "Alt C Qualification" style shilouettes at the 25, 50 and 100yd lines from the 4 field positions using Irons / FastFire and would already be more accurate than me) and probably wouldn't do any more work if I can get in that range out of the gate, but for the 77gr, I want it as good as I can get it, so I will probably take your advice and do a second round of testing around the best groups in each powder I load at that weight. I had wondered if, loading at .5gr increments, I was taking too large of strides between charges... but oh well, they're loaded now - this will just give me a good reason to shoot more, so that's fine with me!:)

[mkl]

Your 0.5 increments are fine to get you in the ball park.

Short story: Way back in the dark ages (around 1966) I had just started realoading for my .243 Win. I was in my final year of college at the time and got a job offer that I accepted that would put me in far west Texas. Well, I thought, varmint hunting should be great out there, so I went out a purchased the "worlds most particular 22-250" which was a Winchester model 70 varmint -- 24 inch heavy barrel.

To my dismay, my shotgun gave better patterns. Glass bedded the sucker (pillar bedding had not been invented at the time -- at least by the major manufacturer's) and the durn thing still wouldn't shoot.

Loaned it to a friend who shot with me and had a lot more time on his hands to see if he could find any load that would shoot. About three months later he called me and said I could come and get my gun.

When I picked it up, he gave me the gun and a target that had a six-shot group in a 3/8 inch hole. Said he'd sell me the load data for $100, but he settled for a 6-pack of his favorite beer.

Turned out it was a powder/bullet I had tried, but I had "skipped" over the powder weight that gave perfection.

I played around after I got the gun back and found that 0.3 grains either way away from that exact load would open the groups up to over an inch. Now you see why I call it the world's most particular 22-250! Never had had that happen in a gun since (I reload for about 14 cartridges) but it did happen then.

Long way of saying "A little bit can make a difference" when it comes to those sub-minute of angle groups, so be sure to "fiddle around" with powder weights close to what gives your best groups at the range tomorrow.

Best wishes, and let us know how you do.

[elChupacabra!]

mkl,

That's a great story - I'll keep that in mind if none of my powder / bullet combos work the first time around.

Thanks for the good luck wishes and I'll definitely post when I get back, HOPEFULLY with a pic or two of a good group (if I can manage one or two) and maybe even the offending rifle, which I have never taken any pictures of (yet) but sure am proud of, especially since I built it myself from scratch... I suppose this is a good excuse to get a couple pics for the record ;)

[Bullet]

From what I’ve read your shooting an AR. A bullet comparator is not needed when loading to fit in a mag. Sounds to me like your off to a good start. Have fun and be safe.

[bullseye308]

Where are you shooting at? Maybe we can hook up some time and share some range time. I have some 62 gr FMJBT bullets you could try if you'd like. I see you are in Franklin, I am just down the road in Smyrna, I'll PM you my number, call me if you'd like to get together. I've only been reloading for a few years, maybe I can help you build some confidence in your loads.

Mike.

[Bitswap]

Ok, from what I undrestand from your post, your wondering about a 0.002 variance in headspace, and a 0.002 variance in tip-to-tip length.

First your headspace measurement. I assume your using a headspace guage and measuring on the datum of the shoulder. 0.002 is nothing to worry about. My best press will give a variance of +/- 0.001 which is a rcbs ammomaster that I use for bmg. That variance is 'normal' for 308's and 223's.

Next is tip-to-tip. That mesurement should really be on the ogive of the bullet rather than the tip. The ogive is the part of the bullet that will purchase the lands of your rifle. If your measuring properly, again, +/- 0.001 is no big deal.

I would NOT seat the bullet 0.002 off the lands. For 308 start at 0.030 and for 223 start at 0.015. Go closer after you figure out your OCW load. Maybe that's what's making you nervous. There is no reason to 'jam' your round for accuracy.

Don't sweat the small stuff. If you got your OCW load figured out these variances will mean nothing. That's the nature of OCW, tollerating variances in headspace, distance from lands and powder with no material deviations.

Measure some premium rounds off the shelf. You'll find your reloads are MUCH more consistent.

If think you can achieve better tollerances, then look at your reloading bench and make it more stable.

There are other factors involved in putting the bullet through the same hole at 100 yards. The trigger, breathing, psychology, barrel, action and round all come into play.

[cracked butt]

I would NOT seat the bullet 0.002 off the lands. For 308 start at 0.030 and for 223 start at 0.015. Go closer after you figure out your OCW load. Maybe that's what's making you nervous. There is no reason to 'jam' your round for accuracy.


+1

0.015 -0.020 is a goos start with the.223. Contrary to conventional wisdom a bit of bullet jump doesn't hurt accuracy unless you are shooting VLD bullets which should be seated into the lands.


Re: cartridge headspAce: Don't worry too much about it so long as you are increasing (shortening the case at the shoulder) headspace of a fired case from your gun by 0.001-.002" so that the brass chambers easily. You dont want to shorten it any more unless you are handy with a broken case extractor tool.

Seating- just set your seating die so that the longest seated cartridges are coming out at 2.260"- you'll get some variation depending on the manufacturer and how consistant the ogives are.

[elChupacabra!]

Alright guys, I've got a range report, and I'm very happy to say that I still have all my fingers and toes attached to their respective appendages, so that's a good start :)

I went out on Saturday and shot the loads I discussed above. Both 23.5 and 24.0gr of IMR3031 under the 55gr bullets did just fine, about 1.25" or so, with 24.5 giving flattened and cratered primers, so I decided to just stick with 23.5gr and take it easy with that plinking round. Definitely a success there.

I was pretty disappointed with the IMR4198 - even at max pressure, I couldn't get it to cycle hard enough to lock back on an empty mag, although at 20.5gr it does cycle reliably enough to feed properly. Since I've got 3lbs of it, I'll probably still load it up and shoot it, since locking back on an empty mag isn't necessarily critical for plinking(depending on what type of shooting I'm doing, but for marksmanship practice I can live with it).

Both loads with the 77gr Noslers (IMR3031, Varget) did OK, but nothing REALLY spectacular - I did have 2 groups for each powder that were about 1.25" and would have been less than half that if I only counted 4 of the 5 shots, so I figured I would follow mkl's advice and do a second set of workups around those charges and see if I could fine-tune them and get more accuracy out of them. I prepped 30 pieces of brass Saturday night and Sunday morning loaded up 5 rounds each at 23.2, 23.4, 23.6 gr of Varget and 20.2, 20.4 and 20.6gr of IMR3031. Shooting Sunday afternoon I found that the 3031 still never did any better than 1.25" which is a bit of a disappointment, so I probably won't use any more of it under those bullets, but the real success story of the day was Varget, which, at 23.4gr, gave me a lovely .808" 5-shot group :D Now I know I mentioned earlier that "my rifle is capable of .75MOA," but it dawned on me that that was for 3-shot groups only... I've never been able to hold a good 5-shot group before, so this is probably the best group my rifle has ever shot, or I've shot, for that matter.

I know .808" isn't much to brag about in the big picture of competitive shooting, but out of a rifle that I assembled myself with a $170 DPMS match stainless barrel and a Burris FullField II 3-9x40 scope on top of a Larue QD mount, .808" makes me happy. And who knows - as I become a better shooter, I may be able to get a better group out of it yet, or perhaps next time I buy powder I'll try a different one and see if I can close those groups up more.

Thanks again for all the help everybody, my weekend definitely wouldn't have been as successful as it was if it wasn't for all your help and friendly advice.

NOTE: Sorry I didn't have time to get any pics, it was a crazy weekend and this week is looking to be a rough one as well, so I may or may not get around to taking any... if anyone is REALLY disappointed, let me know and I'll try, but otherwise, I probably won't... sorry guys.

[mkl]

Congratulations !!!

[cracked butt]

Sunday morning loaded up 5 rounds each at 23.2, 23.4, 23.6 gr of Varget


Sounds like you found a good load.:cool:
You could go about 1 grain higher with Varget, Also try RL-15 with the 77gr bullets.

[elChupacabra!]

cracked butt,

About Varget, My first time out I went up to 24gr (I think 24.5gr is max?) and found that I was getting some cratered primers, so I stopped there and worked around the 23.5gr load to try and find the sweet spot... I don't want to push anything so when i saw those cratered / flattened primers, I figured it was time to stop, even though max was a little higher... does that seem right to you or would you be as worred about the cratered primers as I was? (When I say "cratered" I mean that, running my fingernail over the primer where the firing pin struck, I can feel a ridge around the dimple, which I THINK means the primer is extruding back around the firing pin during ignition and pressures are getting up there... right?)

As for RL15, I almost went with it for my first pound of "good" powder, but chose Varget instead because I've heard more people say good things about it than RL15, tho I've heard plenty good about RL15 as well... that's probably what I'll pick up next time tho, maybe it'll do a little better for me.

[SSN Vet]

Are they completely flattened, right out to the very edge with a sharp right angle at the primer pocket wall?

I get flattened primers on factory loaded ammo. but as long as there is still some radius left at the edge, I don't consider that overpressure.

There's great photos in the ABCs of Reloading that illustrate this well.

I know .808" isn't much to brag about

I'd sure as heck brag about it if I ever shot a 'true' .8" group

[elChupacabra!]

SSN Vet,

No, they aren't completely flattened - using Remington 7 1/2 BR primers, which seem to be VERY curvey pre-fired, so I expect a little flattening. Still, they do still have some curvature at the edges, so I don't think I'm having any serious problems. I have backed off the cratered primers tho - I don't want to get that close to the line.

As for the .808" group, it's a solid 5 shot group, but I did shoot it off a front rest and rear sandbag, so it's not my shooting to credit, just the ammo... but that's fine, I definitely intended to remove as much shooter error from the load development firings as possible.

Now to shoot a .8" group prone unsupported... that'll be when I brag, but that day isn't today for sure;)

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

The .308 is registered at 60kpsi and has a max average brass life at 62kpsi.
Not much room for hot rodding.

The .223 is registered at 55kpsi and has a max average brass life at 70~80 kpsi.
Plenty of safety margin for hot rodding.

What does it all mean?
I can put 3 or 4 grains more than max published load in the .223 and get long brass life.

If I put in 6 or 7 more grains than published, the brass looks awful, is hard to get out, and cannot even be re used once.

[Bitswap]

but the real success story of the day was Varget, which, at 23.4gr, gave me a lovely .808" 5-shot group

Now that's interesting. My competition load for 223 is 23.6 grains of Varget and I do 1/4" groups at 100.

What's interesting about this is the theory of OCW. Harmonics of the barrel taken into consideration, the shock wave is at the breech when the bullet exits, irregardless of the muzzle lengh. And, in my other 223's that load is the best. You'll find OCW's at a slightly higher FPS as well.

The guys that figured this out really had their 'act' togeather.

I wouldn't sweat the flattned primers... when the bolt gets hard to pull out, then I'd worry.. or other signs of overpressure.

.8" is a good group. You'll get better with practice. But darn good.

[elChupacabra!]

Thanks bitswap. I may not be the best shooter, but I'm infinitely better than when I started just a few years ago. In fact, I have only been shooting rifles for a little over a year now, so I'm happy with my progress, but still looking forward to future improvements.

[Bitswap]

but still looking forward to future improvements.


Sounds like your well on your way. There is no substitute for practice.

After getting my shooting technique down (breathing, sight picture, trigger work, attitude) the next major improvement I had was installing a good crisp trigger. I like about a 1.5 -2.0 pound pull. It's automatic now I put replace the trigger on all my new rifles. Haven't had to do that to CZs with their set triggers. But I've put Timmys on my other rifles and made a world of difference for me. I had a 600 remmington that seemed like it has an 8 pound pull and tons of creep. After a timmy, it's a sweetheart and now one of my favorite iron sighted rifles.

From a reloading standpoint, when I started turning the necks of my brass and using a neck sizer die, my groups really tightened up. Didn't make a big difference with brand new brass, but did on the reloads. This is with cheap Winchester brass so there may not be a need if your using Lupa or simular quality. The downside is that this throws another variable into the mix for neck tension but if you stick with 0.002 tension you'll be fine.

Those were the two biggest things I've done to improve my accuracy.

[Evenflo76]

I'm new to reloading as well. I've been loading 55gr Hornady FMJ-BT at 21.6 grains with AA 2015 powder. The bolt will lock back with this setup. Also, I have had the same OAL variance with no issue.