Irresponsible behavior by LEO?


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Alex45ACP
July 13, 2008, 05:21 AM
A few days ago I was at the gym. The gym is unstaffed and members get a key that unlocks the door. There was one other person there.

I saw a police officer in full uniform come into the building with a gym bag and I was very surprised when he took off his belt, body armor and uniform shirt, left them on the floor about 10 feet away from the treadmill I was using, and started working out.

His belt had his gun (a Glock) and pepper spray, and whatever else cops keep on their belts. I couldn't see because of the way the belt was lying on the floor, but his gun and pepper spray were definitely on there.

He did not even stay close to his gun while he was working out. He spent most of his time on the other side of the gym. If I or the other guy training there had bad intentions, it would have been extremely easy to take the gun. I had to walk right past it a few times to get to the water fountain and he didn't seem to notice.

This strikes me as extremely irresponsible behavior and I am also very irritated by the double standard here. I can't even open carry in this state, but a cop can just leave his gun lying around unattended?

What do you think about this?

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Moonclip
July 13, 2008, 05:28 AM
He probably felt secure in that enviroment and the gun is probably in a retention holster but I think that was silly, he's not impressing me.

Why doesn't he just put his stuff in a locker or in his car trunk?

FCFC
July 13, 2008, 06:08 AM
This strikes me as extremely irresponsible behavior and I am also very irritated by the double standard here. I can't even open carry in this state, but a cop can just leave his gun lying around unattended?

I don't see the linkage.

Gerald in Ga
July 13, 2008, 07:32 AM
Howdy,
You should have called the police and reported an unattended firearm. Let him explain it to his boss.

Old School
July 13, 2008, 08:08 AM
I can't imagine leaving a firearm unattended anywhere where there are people. Somebody needs to talk to him just to prevent a tragedy.

Blacksmoke
July 13, 2008, 08:38 AM
Since the subject is "irresponsible LEOs", in 1973 I stopped at a Denny's for a bite. Parked in front were two California Highway Patrol Harley Davidsons. I walked by looking at them close up. The key was in one. Something came over me (Stupidity) and I turned the swith to "on". Immediately the siren came on and I quickly switched the key to off. The key switch was mounted on the top of the combo tanks. I look up and there at the doorway stand two CHP Motor officers each with a big grin on their faces. I guess this was some kind of set-up or joke. Cop humor.

TexasSkyhawk
July 13, 2008, 08:39 AM
In my old agency, OPR would've chewed you up--minimum unpaid suspension of at least 90 days, but termination more likely.

If nothing else, the genius should've left it locked in the trunk of his patrol car.

However, I AM GLAD that at least he was there working out. Compared to too many whales-in-making (and quite a few who are already there), at least he's trying to stay fit. I'll give him that.

Jeff

Eric F
July 13, 2008, 08:45 AM
I dont know about this, but I could run with this one either way. He was wrong but are we making a big deal about this more than which is necessary?

Treo
July 13, 2008, 08:47 AM
I think if any thing the incident showed a lack of professionalism.
But I fail to see that he was anymore irresponsible than some private gun owners I've seen. Are you really concerned or are you just pissed off because you can't opencarry?

Grey_Mana
July 13, 2008, 08:58 AM
Who works out in uniform? Was he a scrub, trying out the equipment for the first time (suggesting carelessness and ignorance), or was he a regular (suggesting something horrible happened at work, and he working out without changing because he's trying to deal with his emotions & stress)? It's still not acceptable, but it would be a lot more understandable if he'd just come off a bad shift.

Old Dog
July 13, 2008, 10:57 AM
To Alex45ACP: So what prevented you from speaking to the officer and addressing your concerns with him? Perhaps mentioning to him, "Excuse me, Officer, not meaning to be nosy, but you may want to lock up your duty belt and weapon -- not every patron of this gym may be as honest as I ..." Believe it or not, some cops can actually take advice or criticism, when it's warranted -- and in this case, it was.

If you spot someone doing something wrong -- here, very wrong and stupid to boot -- you have a right to address it to the culprit, even if said culprit is a uniformed law enforcement officer. Then, and only then, can you say you did the right thing.

No point in whining about someone else's "irresponsible behavior" if you didn't take any steps to address it at the time, and you certainly could, and should, have addressed it to the officer.

Atla
July 13, 2008, 11:00 AM
I've never found cops to be overly bright creatures. Shame I'm going to be one. ;(

jhansman
July 13, 2008, 11:08 AM
Just imagine if, while on duty (or off), he observed you doing something equally irresponsible or dangerous. What do you think he would have done? I think cops, more than anyone, need to be held to the same or higher standards as your average Joe. Problem is, far too many believe or think they are exempt from such scrutiny by virtue of badge and gun.

MedWheeler
July 13, 2008, 11:11 AM
Not anything I would have done. However, without having actually been there, seen who was around, and having the "feel" for the place you did, I can't comment on whether or not it was a "big deal". Hopefully, it's not a habit he has.
Many cops don't welcome unsolicited advice, but many don't have a problem with it. I might have, depending on how many people were around, told him that "one of these guys was kinda looking at your weapon funny", and just not told him who, maybe saying the looker had already left. Maybe "qualify yourself" a little, saying you're ex-LE, Army, a private frearms instructor, or something.

wheelgunslinger
July 13, 2008, 11:17 AM
At a gym I used to use there was a broad spectrum of LE types from locals townies to fed to troopers.
The lockers were made of this composite wood with the hardware mounted through them. All anyone would had to have done is kick a door hard or bring a crowbar and they'd have a gun. So, the locker isn't always the best idea.

But, I never saw a duty belt on the floor.
That's careless. But, like skyhawk said, at least he was in there doing something and not just exceeding the weight limit of his belt.

Meh. If someone had grabbed his gun, you can bet that every officer in the country would likely be hearing about it in the next shift meeting. How many do you think are paranoid about being the next one to leave his glock in a bathroom stall?

jaholder1971
July 13, 2008, 11:28 AM
Sounds like the guy was on his lunch break, trying to get in a workout. He's probably subject to call, so he's gotta keep his stuff close by.

Wow! I love the think of some of you here: Cops are bad because of their distrust of citizens and in one instance where the guy shows some trust in a relatively secured area he's irresponsible. No cop bashers here [/sarcasm]

I guess the next time you leave you guns on the bench while to go downrange to change targets we should call the cops and report YOUR irresponsibility.

bogie
July 13, 2008, 12:44 PM
He probably figured that it was a low risk situation, since most health clubs are essentially controlled members only environments, so he didn't worry about it other than likely keeping one eye out for people who'd try to do stupid stuff.

He may also have been told that he is not allowed to secure it in either a car trunk or a gym locker... Catch-22 from a lot of bureaucrats, you know?

Z71
July 13, 2008, 01:20 PM
I've been a LEO myself in the past.

Cops are not supermen or rocket scientists! Just everyday folks that screw up with the best of them.

I always thought(even as a cop myself) that many in law enforcement are there because they are not suitable to do anything more demanding. That statement is focused more on small town policing. I wouldn't want to be a big city cop at all! When I was a cop in our small town, many of my comrades in black(not blue) didn't impress me with their intelligence, or drive to get something done!

I remember mentioning something about this to our chief concerning a brother officer. His reply was "at least he can drive the car and look like he's busy"!!!

Big45
July 13, 2008, 01:28 PM
I've never found cops to be overly bright creatures. Shame I'm going to be one. ;(

Jeff White pm you yet?

Look the guy obviously felt comfortable enough to leave his stuff lying there. Maybe it was careless, maybe not. Might be a different story if he left it unattended on the streets of say South Central LA. Now that would be an issue. But the gym? THIS gym? He obviously assesses it as a non issue. So what's the big deal?

Second, why aren't you focused on working out?

Frog48
July 13, 2008, 01:54 PM
Sure, it was a stupid mistake. But its not anything to get worked up about.

KelVarnson
July 13, 2008, 02:39 PM
Seeing as this guy is a representative of the group that gets to decide whether or not you get to posess and carry a gun, then yes, I would say this is something that should bother you.

Kinda like when I saw a local LEO use his collapsible baton (a very useful weapon that I am prohibited from posessing) to pick up a piece of trash in the park.

ilbob
July 13, 2008, 02:41 PM
when I was in high school, cops around here routinely left their cars running when they stopped and exited their vehicles.

several high profile cases of cop cars taken forced them to modify that practice.

it does not seem like a real bright move on his part. what does he do with it while he showers?

ilbob
July 13, 2008, 02:47 PM
I've never found cops to be overly bright creatures. Shame I'm going to be one.just remember that 50% of the population at large is below average. :)

I don't think cops are especially dumb, as the real dumb get weeded out by the selection process. The leaves the average dumb, and that can be a lot of dumb. Think about some of the things you or your coworkers have done over the years. I knew a guy who decided it would be a good idea to move a train car with a fork lift. It never occurred to him that the forklift can get the car moving, but can't do diddly to stop it, but the derailler can.

Kinda like when I saw a local LEO use his collapsible baton (a very useful weapon that I am prohibited from possessing) to pick up a piece of trash in the park.I once saw a county sheriff's cop standing in the middle of a road trying to move a large piece of tire with a baton. Guess he did not want to get his hands dirty. I watched him in my rear view mirror eventually give up and pick it up with his hands and drag it off the road. I thought it was a pretty decent thing for him to do. He could just as easily left it there or just called in a report for the road department.

brerrabbit
July 13, 2008, 02:50 PM
I do not think LE are dumb either.

The last stats I found placed them right around average. Not stupid, not exceptionally bright, but right in the middle of the bell curve where most people reside.

As far as leaving the belt with firearm out in the open unattended, would it have been proper to leave a personal firearm that way?

Reyn
July 13, 2008, 02:56 PM
Seeing as this guy is a representative of the group that gets to decide whether or not you get to posess and carry a gun, then yes, I would say this is something that should bother you.

Kinda like when I saw a local LEO use his collapsible baton (a very useful weapon that I am prohibited from posessing) to pick up a piece of trash in the park

Are you saying you were bothered because an officer took out his asp to pickup a piece of trash?

jhansman
July 13, 2008, 03:14 PM
I guess the next time you leave you guns on the bench while to go downrange to change targets we should call the cops and report YOUR irresponsibility.

This is SOP at the public range I shoot at, so what's the problem? Are we supposed to take them with us downrange?

I love how anytime LE comes under public scrutiny or is criticized, it's 'cop bashing.' :rolleyes:

KelVarnson
July 13, 2008, 03:14 PM
Are you saying you were bothered because an officer took out his asp to pickup a piece of trash?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

ilbob
July 13, 2008, 03:23 PM
Are you saying you were bothered because an officer took out his asp to pickup a piece of trash?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
It doesn't bother me at all. I am curious how he managed it though.

Reyn
July 13, 2008, 03:30 PM
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying

Did you call his chief and complain?

KelVarnson
July 13, 2008, 03:35 PM
He used it to pick up a cup lying in the gutter, instead of bending over to just pick the thing up. Seeing as how I could get arrested for doing the exact same thing, yes, it bothers me.

A collapsible baton seems like a GREAT defensive weapon for an individual to carry. I would love to have one to slip in my pocket while I am out walking the dogs. But for some reason, they are outlawed here. So to see a cop using one to pick up trash, yes, it bothers me. He might has well have been pounding a nail with the grip of his Glock.

KelVarnson
July 13, 2008, 03:42 PM
Did you call his chief and complain?

I am sensing some sarcasm here. Are you a cop, by any chance?

Anyway, while I try not to waste my time on futile pursuits, yes, the thought did cross my mind. But I like the cops in my area, I don't want to make trouble for them or with them. I'm just saying, I wish people who are entrusted with special powers and priveleges would treat them with the respect they deserve. Using a weapon that the average citizen is prohibited from owning to pick up trash in the gutter is not cool.

Old Grump
July 13, 2008, 03:56 PM
((A few days ago I was at the gym. The gym is unstaffed and members get a key that unlocks the door. There was one other person there.))

I think you are worrying about the wrong thing. When I used to box our gym was in a bad neighborhood and often there was just myself and another fighter and maybe one of our trainers who were never going to see 60 again. Doors were locked and we could and did leave our personal things laying around. In a public gym things were locked up and the key kept on me during my workout.

If the officer didn't trust you do you think he would have left his gear lay where he did. It was handy for him to retrieve in a hurry if he was called out, sounds prudent to me. Sounds to me like he took your measure and decided he could trust you and all you want to do is whine.

Blacksmoke
July 13, 2008, 04:12 PM
I've never found cops to be overly bright creatures. Shame I'm going to be one. ;(
-Atla

You have raised an interesting philosophical question. How smart does a LEO need be?

I worked with about ten retired or on-disability leave LEOs for a national bank security department. They were all San Francisco PD or California Highway Patrol. This was in the early 1970s. I was in my early 20s and they were 50+. They were all of Irish ancestory. All of them were top guys who I was honored to know. However none of them were intellectuals except for one ex-CHP guy who was extremely sharp with very broad interests. All of them wre honest and competent. Most importantly, they were men of good judgement. During their tenure in the 1950s and 1960s LEOs were granted broader discretion than today's officers. Since then, there are too many court precedent cases that have narrowed the job considerably. Back then these guys had the sense to know what infractions were important and which were not cost effective or practical. To be blunt, in dealing with many situations they were more like Catholic priests- Bing Crosby in "Going My Way" or football coaches dealing with aberrent team members. This was a less violent era to be sure. They would consel a minor transgressor, like DWI, and send him on his way.

Today, LEOs face so many more regulations, laws, ordinances and proceedural guidelines that goinf by the book is critical. It seems when discretion is applied to a situation it comes back to bite their ass. So, active intelligence may not be all that helpful and could be a problem. Following the rules means stedy predictable outcomes. LEOs could almost be robots following programing and not deviating. That is not meant as an insult to any individual, just a commentary on the job has changed.

.

06
July 13, 2008, 04:32 PM
Releasing his mag would have perplexed him greatly. Especially if it was laid on top of his gear, wc

M203Sniper
July 13, 2008, 04:33 PM
Kinda like when I saw a local LEO use his collapsible baton (a very useful weapon that I am prohibited from possessing) to pick up a piece of trash in the park.


1. The ASP or Monadock expandable baton's are garbage, IMHO. You can use them
to break a window and that's about it. We have better tools for that now.

2. I do not usually carry "Hand Sanitizer" inside my uniform, it is in my bag; I do keep
it handy though - if you touched the same people I do, you wouldn't think they
made leather gloves thick enough.

3. He picked something up? Probably a damn boy-scout. Un-bribable, don't lie, rarely
curses, I bet that guy even kisses his momma! The nerve of some people :neener:
walking around doing the right thing. You should call his chief. :)

MT GUNNY
July 13, 2008, 05:01 PM
A peace Officer is supposed to abide buy some type of ethics each department puts forth. No matter what other people have seen other gun owners do!

jaholder1971
July 13, 2008, 06:49 PM
Quote:
I guess the next time you leave you guns on the bench while to go downrange to change targets we should call the cops and report YOUR irresponsibility.
This is SOP at the public range I shoot at, so what's the problem? Are we supposed to take them with us downrange?

I love how anytime LE comes under public scrutiny or is criticized, it's 'cop bashing.'

If it's responsible to leave your firearms unattended 100-300 yards away to change a target I suppose leaving his 10 feet away is plenty fine.

Cosmoline
July 13, 2008, 06:50 PM
It depends on the circumstances. I routinely walk up to 100 yards or more away from my firearm, as does anyone at a shooting range. But if there's a lot of activity around the item and possibility for theft it should be locked up.

akodo
July 13, 2008, 07:25 PM
At a gym I used to use there was a broad spectrum of LE types from locals townies to fed to troopers.
The lockers were made of this composite wood with the hardware mounted through them. All anyone would had to have done is kick a door hard or bring a crowbar and they'd have a gun. So, the locker isn't always the best idea.

Can you see what is in the lockers?

Yes, a lot of lockers are readily accessable with force or simple tools in a matter of seconds, but how do you konw which locker has the gun in it?

TexasSkyhawk
July 13, 2008, 08:02 PM
I am sensing some sarcasm here. Are you a cop, by any chance?

I was, and since you seem to be overly critical of the police, here's a solution for you:

Give your local Chief of Police, Sheriff, Captain of the State Police barracks or company for your area, and the local SACs of your federal agencies a call. Tell them who you are and how you just have a problem with the way they do some things.

Be sure and give them your address, phone number, cell phone number, wife's information, children's information, where you work, what you drive, etc etc.

And then ask them to not bother responding to any calls, concerns or emergencies you may have.

Hell, fair's far after all.

I'm just saying, I wish people who are entrusted with special powers and priveleges would treat them with the respect they deserve. Using a weapon that the average citizen is prohibited from owning to pick up trash in the gutter is not cool.

Personally, I think your priorities/concerns are seriously out of whack.

Better that the officer left the trash?

Would YOU have picked up the trash?

Would you even BE a cop?

Jeff

ilbob
July 13, 2008, 09:03 PM
It depends on the circumstances. I routinely walk up to 100 yards or more away from my firearm, as does anyone at a shooting range. But if there's a lot of activity around the item and possibility for theft it should be locked up.I used to put my guns back in the case and then in the trunk of my car before I would walk out to the 200 yard target line if I was by myself at a public range. If I was with someone, one of us would walk out to the targets and the other would watch the guns.

Alex45ACP
July 13, 2008, 11:30 PM
I don't understand the people who defend this behavior.

If I made a post about leaving my gun lying on the floor in the gym while I trained, I would be called irresponsible.

If I walked in with an openly carried handgun and left it on the floor and started working out, they would probably call in a SWAT team.

Why is it OK when a LEO does it?

esmith
July 13, 2008, 11:45 PM
He obviously assesses it as a non issue. So what's the big deal?

Second, why aren't you focused on working out?

So because the cop 'thinks' its a non-issue means its not. That means everythings okay because he's a cop! His judgement is always better than mine.

Getting a badge on your shoulder and a gun on your hip isn't the hardest thing to do. It's like getting a drivers licence, millions have them, but theres still millions that are bad drivers with bad judgement.

And about your comment on why the OP isn't focused on working out. Well, the only thing i can say to that is, are you serious? Is it that hard to notice why he even posted this?

And don't call me a cop-hater. I look up to cops and i'll usually give them a wave if i see them. But some can be careless and downright jerks. Like the one that pulled me over the other day because im bad at driving a standard transmission.

ozarkhillbilly
July 13, 2008, 11:54 PM
I think a lot of people here are being over sensitive here. If the gym is in a good location, not many people in it then what’s the big deal would you have rather he left it in his car, I can get in a trunk in about 5 sec on a bad day and the cab a whole lot faster.

There are times it's ok to come down on police for wrong things they do but good grief getting upset because they used a plastic stick to pick up trash out of the gutter or laid their belt and gun down in a basically empty room and walked a few feet away from it.

If this upsets you then you better not ever go to a small town coffee shop during any hunting season because all of those corners filled with lots of guns just leaning against the wall unattended will really upset you.

Erik
July 14, 2008, 12:18 AM
I understand the sentiment concerning the gear belt. It raised my eyebrows.

What I do not understand is the sentiment concerning the officer policing trash, pardon the pun, with a collapsable baton. And yes, I read the rational. But I'm left with the impression that the rational.... well, that it is... irrational. It is not as if he scooped it up with the barrel of his gun, after all.

How about poo flicking? I've seen officers flick poo out of the side walk with batons. Should they just walk on by and leave it for an unsuspecting citizen's shoe?

KelVarnson
July 14, 2008, 01:51 AM
Wow, and you guys are calling ME sensitive. I say that I think a cop is out of line for using a restricted weapon to pick up trash, and all of a sudden I am a cop-basher. Some of you must have skimmed over the part of my post where I said I like and support the police. Go ahead, read what you want to read, skip over the rest so that you can make your points.

You in particular, Texas Skyhawk, your response was WAY over the top. Calling me a cop basher was out of line. Suggesting that I forfeit police services because I am critical of one action of one cop is absolutely ridiculous.

The state of California has decided that a collapsible baton is too dangerous for the average citizen to own and operate. If that is truly the case, it should stay on the cop's belt until it is needed against a bad guy. Seeing a cop use it to pick up a piece of trash, or to "fling poo" is pretty damned insulting, really.

By the way, if it were legal for me to own a collapsible baton, I would have NO PROBLEM with a cop using his own to pick up trash. Does that make my position more clear?

"I'm the only one in this park that I know of that is qualified to use this baton..."

ClickClickD'oh
July 14, 2008, 02:47 AM
You know KelVarnson, maybe the cops think it's equally rediculous that you aren't allowed to own a baton too.

They don't make the laws, the legislature does. The officer isn't disrespecting you by using his baton for unsightly chores.

Jesse H
July 14, 2008, 05:04 AM
The state of California has decided that a collapsible baton is too dangerous for the average citizen to own and operate. If that is truly the case, it should stay on the cop's belt until it is needed against a bad guy. Seeing a cop use it to pick up a piece of trash, or to "fling poo" is pretty damned insulting, really.

By the way, if it were legal for me to own a collapsible baton, I would have NO PROBLEM with a cop using his own to pick up trash. Does that make my position more clear?

Sounds like you should be upset at your legislators and not the guy who picked up the trash.

I've used my baton to do lots of stuff it wasn't designed for. I would love to shed a few oz and leave that worthless thing off my belt.

CRITGIT
July 14, 2008, 05:53 AM
Ca is so desperate for CHP's they require only a HS diploma. Some of the folks hired lately are nice folks but not the epitome of intelligence and common sense. I know of one case where they recently hired someone who was a product of the remedial education programs all through school and who's immediate family holds the distinction of being one of the most domestically violent households in our entire county.:eek:

On top of that most folks know the family as ignorant and racists.
...and yes, I and others are pursuing it!

In the same county our outgoing Sheriff couldn't properly construct an English sentence.:eek: A genuine embarrassment!!!!!
Promotions under his tenure where based on affiliations with his church.:eek:

Also in a town within this same county a young man was continually harassed and followed home by LEO's. This went on for several months.
The young man's crime was the style of his hair and his legal low rider vehicle.
He was finally pulled over for no reason. The two LEO's are still scrambling to protect their backsides. It seems the young man turned out to be a highly honored local scholar athlete, graduate of one of America's finest universities with highest honors in two majors(Summa Cum Laude X's 2) and president of his law school class at one of this country's most exclusive and prestigious law schools.
He's now having an ongoing "last laugh":neener:

His only question was "what happens to those who don't have my credentials?
...That's right , they're bullied, often provoked and ultimately become statistics!


CRITGIT

Alex45ACP
July 14, 2008, 09:19 AM
I guess the next time you leave you guns on the bench while to go downrange to change targets we should call the cops and report YOUR irresponsibility.

If this upsets you then you better not ever go to a small town coffee shop during any hunting season because all of those corners filled with lots of guns just leaning against the wall unattended will really upset you.

Not really a valid comparison. In these situations, the guns are usually unloaded, no? Plus, all of these people already have guns. So if they wanted to do something wrong, they already have access to the tools to do it. And at least at a range, there is a range officer to make sure no one does anything stupid.

He probably figured that it was a low risk situation, since most health clubs are essentially controlled members only environments, so he didn't worry about it other than likely keeping one eye out for people who'd try to do stupid stuff.

No, he was more focused on the TVs than on his gun. I am not exaggerating when I say that I had to walk right past his gun a few times. I practically had to step over it to get to the water fountain, several times, and he didn’t bother looking over from the TVs to make sure I wasn’t up to anything I should have been.

If the officer didn't trust you do you think he would have left his gear lay where he did. It was handy for him to retrieve in a hurry if he was called out, sounds prudent to me. Sounds to me like he took your measure and decided he could trust you and all you want to do is whine.

Sounds pretty stupid to me. Appearances can be deceiving, I don’t know the guy, never met him, and he didn’t “take my measure”. He just walked over, dumped his stuff on the floor and started working out.

XDKingslayer
July 14, 2008, 09:22 AM
His belt had his gun (a Glock) and pepper spray, and whatever else cops keep on their belts. I couldn't see because of the way the belt was lying on the floor, but his gun and pepper spray were definitely on there.

So let me get this straight, you're assuming the cop left the gun you didn't see unattended...

I'm all for holding them to a higher standard but it's clear they'll never meet yours.

KelVarnson
July 14, 2008, 09:28 AM
Click, Jesse, you guys are both right, it is the inability for me to have the baton that bothers me. And although my posts here might suggest otherwise, I haven't obsessed over this. It's just a thing I saw a cop do once, I shook my head and walked away, thinking that he most certainly didn't realize any significance to his action. And if the laws weren't so screwed up, *I* wouldn't have seen any significance to it, either.

Thanks for your comments.

Treo
July 14, 2008, 09:33 AM
I have an idea let's limit participation in this thread to those who have never done ANYTHING stupid W/ a gun.

Kind of a let he who is without sin thing.

wheelgunslinger
July 14, 2008, 09:41 AM
Quote = me:
At a gym I used to use there was a broad spectrum of LE types from locals townies to fed to troopers.
The lockers were made of this composite wood with the hardware mounted through them. All anyone would had to have done is kick a door hard or bring a crowbar and they'd have a gun.

Akodo asked:
Can you see what is in the lockers?
No.
Yes, a lot of lockers are readily accessible with force or simple tools in a matter of seconds, but how do you know which locker has the gun in it?
I'm observant and a student of how people operate in groups and solo.
Most state and fed cops in the gym are pretty disciplined and from what I noticed they tend to use the same lockers every time, or the one on either side of their usual if it's taken.
Joe shmoe just tends to come in and throw his stuff in a locker and go work out.

It could be said that if this officer who left his belt on the floor made it a regular practice, then he could be making himself a mark for theft or murder by his own piece. It's not like you don't make enemies in LE.

Newby101
July 14, 2008, 09:45 AM
reporting his error in judgement in this area wuold get you a world of retaliation. While not the old west, here in the midwest even asking the LEO politely about the situation could get you in trouble. No I am not paranoid, just aware of my localitly and those who represent it.
Old statement says best leave sleeping dogs lay, comes to mind.

As one poster said he could be working off some issue either on lunch or after shift and interupting might just be the words that got you an attitude adjustment. AUthorities here are as it was many years ago. They are in charge and ANY challenge, verbal or other wise, correct or not, reported or not will get you adjusted.

Best just to walk on and mind my own business.

FCFC
July 14, 2008, 09:52 AM
I can't even open carry in this state, but a cop can just leave his gun lying around unattended?


I don't understand the people who defend this behavior.

If I made a post about leaving my gun lying on the floor in the gym while I trained, I would be called irresponsible.

If I walked in with an openly carried handgun and left it on the floor and started working out, they would probably call in a SWAT team.

Why is it OK when a LEO does it?


I still don't see the connection between what the LEO did in the workout room and your ability to open carry? You got me stumped on that one...:confused:

Talk about something being a "not a valid comparison."

buzz_knox
July 14, 2008, 09:53 AM
For many LEOs, firearms are just another tool of the job, and they take them for granted. That's why you'll see firearms treated like cell phones (leave them lying around, even to the point of losing them) or officers playing with them in the holster (which always give me a "warm" feeling when I see that).

Of course, the same guys for many non-LEOs, who are subject to the same degree of cerebral flatulence.

If the officer was carrying in a level 3 retention holster, he may have figured his gear was safe enough. This displays a rather extreme amount of misplaced confidence, though.

Nitrogen
July 14, 2008, 09:57 AM
You never speak to the police unless it's absolutely necessary.

WC145
July 14, 2008, 10:19 AM
Wow, some of you guys need to find bigger things to worry about. The guy goes into a private gym that requires a key for entry, takes off his gear and leaves it on the floor in the same room he's working out in. So what? It's not the choice most of us here would have made but, for whatever reason he felt okay with it and I can understand it. After all, it was just you and one other guy working out and, trust me, the cop assessed the situation when he walked in and made his decision. I'm sure that if you had decided to try and mess with his weapon you would have been thoroughly surprised by (A) how difficult it can be to remove one from a security holster and (B) how quickly he could make it across the room to show you how it's done.

DC300a
July 14, 2008, 10:26 AM
I'm sure that if you had decided to try and mess with his weapon you would have been thoroughly surprised by (A) how difficult it can be to remove one from a security holster and (B) how quickly he could make it across the room to show you how it's done.

Probably wouldn't need to make it across the room when he drew a bead on you with the revolver from his ankle and asked you nicely to put his stuff down while you were still trying to figure out his security holster. :)

WC145
July 14, 2008, 10:29 AM
Probably wouldn't need to make it across the room when he drew a bead on you with the revolver from his ankle and asked you nicely to put his stuff down while you were still trying to figure out his security holster.

Excellent point, I thought of it after I posted but was too lazy to edit!

Alex45ACP
July 14, 2008, 12:40 PM
So let me get this straight, you're assuming the cop left the gun you didn't see unattended...

I'm all for holding them to a higher standard but it's clear they'll never meet yours.

Did you read the sentence right after the one you highlighted? The gun was on there. It was a Glock.

I'm sure that if you had decided to try and mess with his weapon you would have been thoroughly surprised by (A) how difficult it can be to remove one from a security holster and (B) how quickly he could make it across the room to show you how it's done.

I could have easily removed the gun from the holster without him even noticing.

WC145
July 14, 2008, 01:50 PM
I could have easily removed the gun from the holster without him even noticing.

Easily? I don't know, I've had a couple of level 3 holsters that I could barely draw from and I knew how to make them work!

But the real point here is that you could but you didn't. So I guess his assessment of the people in the room was spot on - a couple of normal law-abiding american citizens (like million upon millions of others in this country) that were in a private gym for a work out. The kind of guys he could trust not to mess with his stuff while he hit the weights on the other side of the room. And since that gun wasn't going to do anything on it's own it seems to me that this whole thread has been a waste of time. Nothing going on in that gym worth talking about.

Seenterman
July 14, 2008, 02:59 PM
Cant even remember the year must have been last year of middle school or early year of high school so four to five years ago, walking past a 7/11 I see one of those big Yonkers ESU trucks (Our version of a SWAT team) with both driver and passager windows open and what looked to be a Remmington 870 or some other tactical black shotgun sitting in between their seats in an unlocked gunrack. Me and my buddy stuck our heads as close to the windows without being inside the truck. God did I want to grab that and keep it foreverest, but I was smart and knew I would get one of my own eventually. Still dont have one but I have my ubercool black AR-15 thats keeping me company until I get a tactical boomstick.

AlaskaErik
July 14, 2008, 03:15 PM
The most irresponsible thing I ever saw was between two DEA agents. I won't go into too much detail other than it was a tranport of them and a prisoner on an aircraft. The two agents were facing each other and engaged in conversation. The prisoner was behind one of the agents with his hands cuffed in front with regular cuffs (no belly chain and no leg irons). What really bothered me was that the agent with his back to the prisoner had his service weapon in a small of the back holster about two feet from the prisoner. Oh, and this guy was looking at a twenty year sentence. I corralled the agent and gave him a piece of my mind about his carelessness.

Moonclip
July 14, 2008, 09:06 PM
treo, for better or worse, police are held to a higher standard and probably should be.

jrfoxx
July 15, 2008, 01:09 AM
I'm on the fence as to which side I'm with on this one, but one thing I dont think has been mentioned, is that BOTH sides would likely have been satisfied if the cop had taken it off just like he did, set it on the ground just like he di, but kept it near HIS machine he was using (and takig it with him if/when he moved to a new machine), as opposed to accross the room. Seems like he would stil have been able to have it not locked in a locker or trunk, and have it handy if needed, which there are legit reasons for pointed out, but it certainly would have been a LOT safer, and in no way any harder, more inconveniant, less accessable (even more, actually), if he set it by him and whatever machine he was using at the time. That way, I think there would have been no issues here at all. Regardless of why he took it off and set it on the floor, there is NO reason to have it across the room, when right by you does the same thing, only its now safer, and faster if needed.

so,I dont think him taking it off and setting it on the ground with people around was a problem, but the fact he should have kept it near him is. anyone disagree that doing it that way would have been a lot smarter for all reasons stated here, and would satisfy those on the both sides of this debate? Seems like that would have been a win-win way for him to do what he wanted/needed even more safetly, and conveiniantly, regardless of his reasoning for not leaving it on, locking it up, etc.

Stevie-Ray
July 15, 2008, 01:19 AM
Second, why aren't you focused on working out?I don't know about the OP, but I am focused on working out. That is until I see a gun lying on the floor of my gym. With the riff-raff that comes into MY gym, that would be a BIG issue, cop or no cop.

ozarkhillbilly
July 16, 2008, 09:54 PM
Alex45ACP

I am not trying to knock you, but maybe we just come from too totally different parts of the country as far as guns our concerned.

Not really a valid comparison. In these situations, the guns are usually unloaded, no? Plus, all of these people already have guns. So if they wanted to do something wrong, they already have access to the tools to do it. And at least at a range, there is a range officer to make sure no one does anything stupid.

Because, yes the guns are loaded not one in the chamber but loaded. Range officer, we don't have range officers. I have never seen a range officer at either of the two outdoor ranges I go too, Bass Pro has one at their indoor range, but he is there mainly to collect your money.

Where I live, guns are tools, nothing really special just tools to be respected. Just like tractors, chain saws, and other tools that can kill you if you do not treat them with respect. Plus about 75% of the people that live in my area have guns, and I mean in a 25 mile plus range.

Group9
July 21, 2008, 02:54 PM
Click, Jesse, you guys are both right, it is the inability for me to have the baton that bothers me. And although my posts here might suggest otherwise, I haven't obsessed over this.

Oh, perish the thought. What could have possibly given you the idea that anyone here thought you were unreasonably obsessed about this? :uhoh:

KelVarnson
July 21, 2008, 04:15 PM
Oh, perish the thought. What could have possibly given you the idea that anyone here thought you were unreasonably obsessed about this?

Hmmm... With that sentence structure, it's hard to tell whom your sarcasm is directed at. Care to clarify, before I go and take this personally?

Erik
July 21, 2008, 10:51 PM
Oh, do not fret. What could have possibly given you the idea that anyone here is directing sarcasm as you about this? :uhoh:

Now... if sarcasm was limmited by statute in your state to LEOs, that might be another thing. Or perhaps not.

GRB
July 21, 2008, 11:04 PM
I'll chime in here, but let me be very clear about this - I am responding to the initial post, I have not read anything beyond that because I figure based on past experience that some replies may get me fired up and right now I want to remain relaxed. Just a personal thing tonight.

The officer was outright wrong to have left unattended his weapon in that manner. Yes it was unattended because it was out of his reach and plainly within reach of others. In fact he was negligent in the security of the gun, ammunition, pepper spray and whatever other equipment he left there on the floor.

He should consider himself lucky not to have been reported to his superiors, luckier yet that no one took photographs or video of how far he was from his gun and how close others got to it, and luckiest of all that the gun was not stolen.

I have left my issue firearms under lock and key in a gym locker room and felt uneasy abut it. As for leaving it in a car, forget about it, that too would be foolish, possibly more foolish than leaving it where he did leave it.

He could have easily left it on the floor next to him in a gym bag, unloaded, with a trigger lock or cable lock in place, and could have secured the bad to the treadmill. That would have been better. A locker was another alternative that would have been better. A safe deposit box at the gym would have been best (sadly only higher end gyms usually offer them), had he needed to be carrying just before and right after the gym. As it was though, what he did was wrong if he was just exercising. I say this last that way because of course, it could have been a sting. I doubt it, but I have seen such things done before in law enforcement work, where the temptation is left there blatantly in the open for a would be thief.

All the best,
Glenn B

bnkrazy
July 21, 2008, 11:24 PM
I know I'm late to the party, but it would have been interesting to post this as a story about "a guy at the gym" and see where the responses went.

Then, a day or two later, post the same story about a "LEO at the gym." I have a feeling the threads would be quite different.

GRB
July 21, 2008, 11:39 PM
Wow! I love the think of some of you here: Cops are bad because of their distrust of citizens and in one instance where the guy shows some trust in a relatively secured area he's irresponsible. No cop bashers here [/sarcasm]

I guess the next time you leave you guns on the bench while to go downrange to change targets we should call the cops and report YOUR irresponsibility.

Well shame on me because I wanted to remain calm, and here I am reading all of the replies, and my BP is fluctuating. Okay, I will stay calm, but I have to comment on this:

Wow! I love the think of some of you here: Cops are bad because of their distrust of citizens and in one instance where the guy shows some trust in a relatively secured area he's irresponsible. No cop bashers here [/sarcasm]

I guess the next time you leave you guns on the bench while to go downrange to change targets we should call the cops and report YOUR irresponsibility. I am an LEO, have been for over 28 years. This officer was quite irresponsible from what was described. This, by the way, was not a range. When I leave my firearms at the bench or in the rifle rack, there is a range officer overlooking the situation. If I go down range on an unattended range, I secure my weapons and make sure to have at least a sidearm with me. The officer in question was not at a range, he was in a public gym, with abunch of other people. He then placed his sidearm where anyone could have gotten to it and caused grief. He was irresponsible unless it was a sting operation or something of that nature.

As for some others, no he does not have to be superman, but he should be responsible with his weapons as so should all of us be with ours. One mistake with a gun can be fatal. He is expected, and probably required by departmental regulations, to safekeep it at all times.

All the best,
Glenn B

KelVarnson
July 21, 2008, 11:40 PM
Oh, perish the thought. What could have possibly given you the idea that anyone here thought you were unreasonably obsessed about this?

Oh, do not fret. What could have possibly given you the idea that anyone here is directing sarcasm as you about this? Now... if sarcasm was limmited by statute in your state to LEOs, that might be another thing. Or perhaps not.

Wow, tag-team elitism. Awesome. You guys really stick together, don'tcha?

"To Protect and Annoy"

(with apologies to Click and Jesse, and now Glenn)


Then, a day or two later, post the same story about a "LEO at the gym." I have a feeling the threads would be quite different.

Ooh, ooh, my turn for the sarcasm. Here goes:

"Ya think?"

GRB
July 22, 2008, 08:08 AM
Kel,

Your comment about elitism is not funny but is certainly ludicrous in my opinion. This is a forum where folks discuss things. When you discuss things, you often go back to what someone else has said as a reference. No tag teams involved, my ideas come from me alone as far as this forum goes.

The officer if all was as described was wrong. My 28 years as an LEO, and 14 years as a firearms instructor, only convinces me of how wrong he was to have done so. Is that elitism in your eyes? Well, if that makes you think that I believe myself part of an elite, I will just have to go on appearing that way IN YOUR EYES because I will keep on thinking it was foolish and very irresponsible of him to do what he reportedly did if it was not a sting operation. Just so you know, there is nothing elitist in that on my part, there is a drilled in sense of responsibility. Sure we can all screw up from time to time, I have myself more than one. Yet just because it is just a rare occurrence, or even a one time thing, does not suddenly make an irresponsible act any closer to being an act demonstrating responsibility.

All the best,
Glenn B

SCKimberFan
July 22, 2008, 08:37 AM
Kelvarnson - I suggest you go back and take another look at your posts about the baton. I am not a LEO, never was, never will be, but I, too, thought you were obsessing over something really insignificant. Then you took it way too personally and jacked the level up to a notch where this thread never should have gone.

Just my .02 worth.

KelVarnson
July 22, 2008, 10:29 AM
Glenn, my comments about elitism were not directed at you, they were directed at Erik and at Group9, for their deliberately inflammatory remarks. I apologize that this was not clear to you. I was writing my post as you posted yours. FWIW I agree with you.

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