Cap and ball & smokeless powder...Westlake


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Novus Collectus
July 13, 2008, 11:42 AM
Has anyone fired a Westlake muzzle loading smokeless powder conversion? How is his workmanship and quality? How well does his smokeless powder system worK?

For those that do not know what I am talking about: http://westlakeengineering.com/4640/4694.html

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K.A.T.
July 13, 2008, 01:31 PM
Why? Buy a new pistol.

Tommygunn
July 13, 2008, 02:05 PM
This is British ... probably for getting 'round their incredibly onerous gun laws. BP pistols (IIRC) are still allowed, and this may be a way for them to take advantage of that while using more modern ammo.

Novus Collectus
July 13, 2008, 03:30 PM
Why? Buy a new pistol.I can think of a number of reasons why.
Novelty......only kid on the block to have one.
Laziness....I and some others stopped shooting blackpowder because we are too lazy to clean our revolvers every time.
Availability.....sometimes blackpowder is hard to find depending on where you live.
Practicality.....you can shoot longer without fouling.
Safety......less likely to flash over and less likely the the powder on the table will be set off by a spark.
Indoor ranges.......you could now shoot inside because of no smoke.
Economy.....smokeless powder is cheaper because you need fewer grains.
Hunting.....no need to worry about rain soaking your powder as much.
Home defense.....you can load the revolver and leave it not having to worry if the powder got wet over time.
Self defense.......ditto except one would not have to worry about sweat.

Now the self defense and home defense are just the added bonuses along with the others, especially if it is the only handgun one has at the moment, but there is another reason for the home/self defense mention.
In some areas (hopefully Heller may change this) one cannot own a modern handgun or carry it around, but there are sometimes gaps in the law about "antiques" or muzzloaders.
Also, some states prohibit people under 21 or under 18 from possessing or at least buying modern handguns, but in some of those states they may buy and own cap and ball revolvers. A smokeless one could be the better alternative because they can trust it to fire without worrying about humidity or water affecting the powder.

And of course there are the people in England and Scotland which still want to shoot handguns but don't want to deal with blackpowder for the numerous reasons.

K.A.T.
July 13, 2008, 06:23 PM
I can see people in England and Scotland doing that. I can see the novelty thing.

Laziness-Buy modern pistol.
Availability-""
Practicality-""
Safety-""
Indoor Ranges-""
Economy-""
Hunting-""
Home Defense-""
Self Defense-""

A cow is a cow, if you need a horse, go buy a horse. I can hear that poor old blackpowder pistol saying, "please don't do it, please don't it." It's your gun do what you like.;)

sharps59
July 13, 2008, 07:39 PM
get an electric wheel chair then you don't have to walk down range either:banghead:

Voodoochile
July 13, 2008, 08:24 PM
I can think of a number of reasons why.
Novelty......only kid on the block to have one.
Laziness....I and some others stopped shooting blackpowder because we are too lazy to clean our revolvers every time.
Availability.....sometimes blackpowder is hard to find depending on where you live.
Practicality.....you can shoot longer without fouling.
Safety......less likely to flash over and less likely the the powder on the table will be set off by a spark.
Indoor ranges.......you could now shoot inside because of no smoke.
Economy.....smokeless powder is cheaper because you need fewer grains.
Hunting.....no need to worry about rain soaking your powder as much.
Home defense.....you can load the revolver and leave it not having to worry if the powder got wet over time.
Self defense.......ditto except one would not have to worry about sweat.

Now the self defense and home defense are just the added bonuses along with the others, especially if it is the only handgun one has at the moment, but there is another reason for the home/self defense mention.
In some areas (hopefully Heller may change this) one cannot own a modern handgun or carry it around, but there are sometimes gaps in the law about "antiques" or muzzloaders.
Also, some states prohibit people under 21 or under 18 from possessing or at least buying modern handguns, but in some of those states they may buy and own cap and ball revolvers. A smokeless one could be the better alternative because they can trust it to fire without worrying about humidity or water affecting the powder.
And of course there are the people in England and Scotland which still want to shoot handguns but don't want to deal with blackpowder for the numerous reasons.

OK to a point if you do not know how to properly load one of these weapons I can see your point but I can reliably load any of my C&B Revolvers & pretty much take out in the rain & it'll reliably fire all 5 loaded chambers any day of the week.

As far as shooting indoors I can see the point but outside no point for any of us in the States but then again we do have the availability of Cartridge conversions too.

As far as flash over & possibly setting off your Flask, when properly loaded with correct fitting components & proper safety precautions are followed this can be avoided in 99% of cases out there.

Over in the UK I understand their situation & the need for such devices like those & my hats off to them for still legally shooting any possible way they can, I just hope that we here in the states will not see the time where our rights are reduced to the level that the UK & other European countries face today or worse.

Smokin_Gun
July 13, 2008, 09:02 PM
I have C& B 19th Century Revs cause that's what like...a few of them.http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/07-11-08_0622.jpg Have one Cartridge wheel gun a Ruger Police Service Six fixed sites 2 3/4" bbl.
.357mag was $240.00 in the 1980's and $450-$500 today. I use the Remingtons for Home defence and carry in .44 C&B. having been around C&B for 30yrs I do know how to properly load and use one. Never have been lazy when it comes to cleaning and care of a weapon. I din't have the privilage of having an FN-FAL in 1972, I had to keep my M-16 clean.
Anyway, for L400 pounds or $794.761 plus the 1858 Remington SS .44?
I don't think I'd do it.

400.00 GBP = 794.761 USD
United Kingdom Pounds United States Dollars
1 GBP = 1.98690 USD 1 USD = 0.503296

SG

Novus Collectus
July 14, 2008, 12:43 AM
Voodoochile: OK to a point if you do not know how to properly load one of these weapons I can see your point but I can reliably load any of my C&B Revolvers & pretty much take out in the rain & it'll reliably fire all 5 loaded chambers any day of the week.I have never hunted with one and I was only going on conjecture. I assume the Civil War officers had problems with the rain.

But, there are stories about Wild Bill Hicock firing his loaded revolver every morning because he was afraid of humidity getting into the chambers during the colder night and causing a misfire, so he fired them off and reloaded first thing.
Now I know that today with air conditioning this is not really an issue, but for those of us that live in the suburbs in a not very gun friendly state, it might be months before we get to a place where we can empty a cylinder of BP. THis is why the smokeless will be a benefit. The revolver can be loaded and not worried about for a long time.

As far as shooting indoors I can see the point but outside no point for any of us in the States but then again we do have the availability of Cartridge conversions too.Two things with that. I have the conversion cylinder for mine and while fun, it has none of the feel of muzzleloading whatsoever. It would be nice on occasion to go to an indoor range during the winter and fire a few out of the muzzle loader.

The second thing is minors in some places, or in some states under 21, cannot either possess/buy a modern handgun, or they cannot posses or buy tha cartridge ammo for one.

As far as flash over & possibly setting off your Flask, when properly loaded with correct fitting components & proper safety precautions are followed this can be avoided in 99% of cases out there.I agree, I had never had a flashover or a spark set off my flask in the thousand or more shots I fired, but I have met people in person that are even more experienced than I which have. That is enough to show me nothing is impossible with BP no matter how experienced I became.

Novus Collectus
July 14, 2008, 12:49 AM
get an electric wheel chair then you don't have to walk down range eitherAnd why walk downrange backwards or on stilts when you can walk down there normally?

Ok, so for those that want the BP experience, then they are welcome to it.....and I also enjoy it. I will continue to shoot BP on occasion, but hey, sometimes I just don;t want to deal with the mess, cleaning, smoke (and the nasty looks from others at the range because of it), or the cost.
What is wrong with wanting yet another type of gun in the collection for use?......eh?

nalioth
July 14, 2008, 01:07 AM
But, there are stories about Wild Bill Hicock firing his loaded revolver every morning because he was afraid of humidity getting into the chambers during the colder night and causing a misfire, so he fired them off and reloaded first thing.
Now I know that today with air conditioning this is not really an issue, but for those of us that live in the suburbs in a not very gun friendly state, it might be months before we get to a place where we can empty a cylinder of BP. THis is why the smokeless will be a benefit. The revolver can be loaded and not worried about for a long time. Black Powder goes bad? How about all those reports of folks finding Great-Gramp's old cavalry pistol (still loaded after decades) and go out in the back yard and fire off all the cylinders?

Smokin_Gun
July 14, 2008, 01:10 AM
For Pete's Sake.......:barf:
I have really heard it all now. Get your Key out Saint Peter I think it's time.

SG

Voodoochile
July 14, 2008, 05:39 AM
But, there are stories about Wild Bill Hicock firing his loaded revolver every morning because he was afraid of humidity getting into the chambers during the colder night and causing a misfire, so he fired them off and reloaded first thing.
Now I know that today with air conditioning this is not really an issue, but for those of us that live in the suburbs in a not very gun friendly state, it might be months before we get to a place where we can empty a cylinder of BP. THis is why the smokeless will be a benefit. The revolver can be loaded and not worried about for a long time.


To a point yes & no.

Hicock did do just that, reports show us this but not only did he do it for reliability but I bet some of it was to also keep his skill as a great shot with them as well not just shooting at open spaces.

I was one of the few people that was just too young & not enough money in his pockets to get a modern cartridge firearm like my .45ACP "about 20 years or so ago" so I loaded my 60' Army up & kept it as my home defence weapon & some times it'd be close to 6-9 months before I could shoot it, & it would shoot just as effeciently as though I had loaded it that day, Oh & I was living in a trailer at the time with only a so so window unit AC.

Novus Collectus
July 14, 2008, 08:26 AM
Voodoochille, I have no idea if the theory is correct, but there is enough discussion about it being a possibility to provide me enough doubt where I would not totally rely on it 100% and with defending our lives we generally want the best assurance possible.
Now I admit the damp powder may be an unwarranted worry and might even be proofed against with wax seals, but there are things to consider as well.....

....Let's say you had to use your black powder revolver in that trailer. How would you be able to see your target after the first shot through all that smoke?

Voodoochile
July 14, 2008, 09:02 AM
....Let's say you had to use your black powder revolver in that trailer. How would you be able to see your target after the first shot through all that smoke?

A good point indeed & thankfully I've only had to use once for a rabid Raccoon that found a way into my trailer "long story but needless to say the 1 load of Lead BB's took care of it" but in the event of a in home encounter I was hoping that the smoke would also be a deterent for my would be adversary to continue their efforts from the first shot of Lead BB's coming down the hall.

You see when I loaded my 60 Army up the first chamber to be shot would be a load of 15gr. FFFG Goex, & 15gr. BB's to because I knew that the first shot would be blinding & hopefully would make it's mark "if nothing but a few stings" then the rest was of 30gr. FFFG Goex, & .457 Ball with hope of not needing them.

Gibbles
July 14, 2008, 09:17 AM
I think it looks cool, for the price I would just buy a cartridge revolver though.

If you have the money and want to go for it then do it! :)
It looks like they overhaul the whole thing and beef it up.

roscoe
July 14, 2008, 11:33 AM
I am not sure that UK shooters could have it, anyway, since it would create a cartridge firearm.

mykeal
July 14, 2008, 01:45 PM
The smoke works both ways - it hides you too. And if you've spent the amount of time practicing and getting proficient that you should spend if you're going to use the gun for personal protection you should be used to it. The bad guy won't be. If you're not used to the smoke, you need to be shooting more. A lot more.

Voodoochile
July 14, 2008, 02:30 PM
The smoke works both ways - it hides you too. And if you've spent the amount of time practicing and getting proficient that you should spend if you're going to use the gun for personal protection you should be used to it. The bad guy won't be. If you're not used to the smoke, you need to be shooting more. A lot more.

Agreed 100%

Back then I knew more about these revolvers than almost any other weapon so yes I qualified but like I mentioned to Novus Collectus that when I had my own home & all that was all I had for a time till I was able to get my .45ACP & ofcorse with College & Work I had limited time to go out & practice so some times it was left loaded for up to about 9 months but I had confidence that it'd reliably work each time I needed to pull the trigger & it has never failed me to go BOOM.

mainmech48
July 15, 2008, 02:35 PM
Just out of curiousity, aside from the exchange rate what would the import duties and customs rigamarole add into the cost?

Seems to me that one not compelled to go to the ridiculous extremes our sad Brit cousins must resort to in order to shoot at all would need to really have a Jones for the bizzare to be willing to shell out that kind of cash for such a basically pointless exercise in retro-engineering.

Of course, it's their cash and all.

Novus Collectus
July 15, 2008, 02:43 PM
Just out of curiousity, aside from the exchange rate what would the import duties and customs rigamarole add into the cost?...a fortune.
I emailed Westlake and he says it would involv both import and export fees as well as the exchange rate is not good and so on...and so on.

I would like to know the quality of his work and to see how well it works because who knows, someday I may have the money to buy one and import it, but I am not thinking about all that as much as I am wondering if he licensed someone here in the US to use his patent and method for conversion. I can see a small market for smokeless powder muzzloader here in the states.

scrat
July 15, 2008, 09:48 PM
get an electric wheel chair then you don't have to walk down range either
__________________

ahahahahaha

lolololol

Smokin_Gun
July 16, 2008, 02:01 AM
I am wondering if he licensed someone here in the US to use his patent and method for conversion. I can see a small market for smokeless powder muzzloader here in the states

Novus, only one thing wrong with that. It would never pass the U.S. Health and Safety Standards. Pouring say 20grains of Bullsye into chamber thinking it was Goex fffg. Would do more than put your eye out kid.
Not a real smart invention. Sorry!:barf:


SG

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