Walmart goes anti-gun


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GunDoctor
July 13, 2008, 11:56 AM
This was posted over on OpenCarry.org:

schwarzi88 on OCOD wrote:
sorry this is a lil late but i had some major stuff to take care of at my house...... Anyways, i was at the Walmart at 106th south and 5th west on thurs July 3rd around 8:30 PM when i was asked to leave ..... i was not even in there for 10 min. as 2 [bottom]. Mngs came up to me and asked me to put my sidearm in the car befor i continue doing my shopping .... i told him that coprate stated ....bla bla bla ....bla bla ...... and i asked to talk to the district Mng. .... he told me he wasn't avalible and when i said that i was not going anywhere until he got ahold of him someone on the walky talky said to call the police..... that was my cue, lolol. so on the way to the door the 2nd [bottom]. Mng went to get me a supposed E-Mail that the legal department sent to all the stores. So as i passed the door greeter i asked her to give me a paper and a pen so i can write down the names of both [bottom]. Mng. As luck would have it i saw a LEO patroling the parking lot and i asked the male [bottom]. Mng. to go talk to her and clear some things up ....... to make a long story short she asked them why they didn't post sighns against Weapons to avoid this all the time ..... they said that since it was Private property they didn't have to ..... so about that time the 2nd [bottom]. Mng came out and handed me the 2 E-Mails......... i'm gonna paste these on here and u guys argue it out. I just think that Walmart is using its power as a corp. Giant to do as it pleases and silly enough gets away with it! I'm thinking that they have a lawsuit waiting to happen just to proove a point ...... maybe get a $10,000 Gift card out of it lol. well guys all jokes aside i think this prob shoud be addressed!

Looks like this affects both OC and CC, check out the emails below (sorry they are so small open them to read them):

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1733/walmartfax1wg4.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=walmartfax1wg4.jpg)

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6223/walmartfax2wz0.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=walmartfax2wz0.jpg)

Lets flood them with emails and get this stopped.

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Eric F
July 13, 2008, 12:00 PM
No suprise here, I was in a Wal-mart last week and saw a woman with a t-shirt that had plenty of large print profanity on it. I found this offensive but the manager said they could do nothing because of policey and the 1st amandment, but I see second amendment does not count.

Oh yeah IBTL

Robby
July 13, 2008, 12:09 PM
Do you think Wally World has gotten information that your not a good Concealed Carrier, until you do the Wally Walk to the sporting goods department, buy ammo after 11 PM and leave. ;)

AndyC
July 13, 2008, 12:11 PM
It's their store - they're free to apply whatever policy they like. Doesn't mean you have to shop there, of course.

CBS220
July 13, 2008, 12:14 PM
No suprise here, I was in a Wal-mart last week and saw a woman with a t-shirt that had plenty of large print profanity on it. I found this offensive but the manager said they could do nothing because of policey and the 1st amandment, but I see second amendment does not count.

The BoR pertains to the government and limitations on its power, not the power of Walmart managers.

Their store, their policies.

Atla
July 13, 2008, 12:18 PM
Every time you see a sign that had a handgun with an X across it on the front of a store, think of that as saying 'No Blacks Allowed' or 'Whites Only'.

It's the same sort of biased discrimination.

weisse52
July 13, 2008, 12:25 PM
Since they are making reference to Utah:
http://bci.utah.gov/CFP/CFLCarry.html
To quote "It is unlawful for a person with a firearm permit to carry a concealed firearm in the following locations:

Any secure area in which firearms are prohibited and notice of the prohibition is posted
A secure area of an airport
Any courthouse, churches if posted, mental health facility or correctional facility that may provide by rule that no firearm may be transported, sold, given, or possessed upon the facility. At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to a secure area in which a dangerous weapon, firearm, or explosive is restricted"

It's not the First Church of Walmart, Yes they do have to post a sign. Now, they can ask you to leave. But if you do not like the rule, then stop shopping at Walmart. I stopped long ago.

22-rimfire
July 13, 2008, 12:32 PM
It is their store, the employees just work there. They can make any rules they want to. I'd suggest you carry concealed if you carry.

DRYHUMOR
July 13, 2008, 12:42 PM
A few weeks back, a female judge in my state (SC) was in a walmart supercenter with a young grandaughter.
The judge had turned away, the little girl removed the handgun in the womans purse, and proceeded to shoot herself with it.
The little girl survived, at last I heard the judge would not be charged.
I've slept since then, so there may be a rest of the story to it.
This could be the source of the walmart email.
The State Newspaper, The Aiken Standard, may have more info on it than I can provide, if any one is interested.

DRYHUMOR
July 13, 2008, 12:45 PM
Also, as far as Walmart being anti gun, three new supercenters have been built nearby in the past two years. They DO NOT and WILL NOT sell or order guns. The older stores still do, but some of those are backing off of selling entirely

kwelz
July 13, 2008, 12:45 PM
So when did Store Policy change from following state law in regards to customers carrying to this?

chaim
July 13, 2008, 12:47 PM
This trend of retailers and other businesses banning carry is getting out of hand. I keep reading of this mall here, that restaurant chain there, and yet another retail chain that ban carry. It is almost as if the antis realize they've lost the legal fight on carry and they've gone on a (quiet) campaign to get businesses to ban carry. If this continues, before long, even with a CCW permit the only time you'll be able to carry is going for a walk, in your yard, or going for a drive. If you stop anywhere you won't be allowed to carry.

It seems there are only two courses of action (both long shots):

1) Start a campaign to try to win back these businesses. Use the customer service end and boycotts to convince the business types in the company. The legal types will be harder, they tend to be paranoid, but use it to try to show liability (it will help if we can get some court cases) in cases where people are unarmed due to their policy and get robbed or assaulted in the parking lot, in the store, or on the way home (not all states have laws that allow you to keep a gun unattended in your car).

2) Try to change CCW laws to get rid of the signs, if you are licensed to carry, anyplace that allows the public in has to let you in. It would be a violation of property rights and thus against conservative values, but it may be legal (businesses open to the public can be banned from racial and religious discrimination, they can be forced to allow other members of the public).


That said, I'm surprised no one else picked up on the name of the poster on OpenCarry.org the OP quoted "schwarzi88". Schwarz is "black" in German, it can be a common name (just like Schwartz is black in Yiddish and a common name). However, he has it in lowercase letters (implying the word, not the name) and I wonder what the "i" after the word means (in Yiddish the soft "a" sound at the end makes it mean the same as the "n" word). That combined with the 88 makes me wonder- I've never seen 88 as an identifier for anyone but members of a certain group. The Neo-Nazis love it, the 8 stands for the 8th letter of the alphabet (h), the 88 or double H stands for the Nazi slogan which I don't wish to repeat (heil then the name of the leader). It does make me wonder if he did anything to antagonize the store management other than carry (such as certain tattoos, certain slogans on his t-shirt, etc.).

At any rate, it doesn't change the beginning of my post. Retailers and others banning carry is a dangerous trend with disturbing consequences if it continues at the current rate. However, my point is that we need to be careful who we have representing us (hopefully if the guy is a Neo-Nazi, which with his name I suspect he is, he wasn't dressed like one at Walmart, hopefully he was in business casual or a suit, we want to break stereotypes, not reinforce them).

Just Jim
July 13, 2008, 12:49 PM
When companies get real big and powerful the constitution means nothing to them, just the bottom line.

Sounds like the Judge showed poor judgement and will now pay the penalty for letting a child play with a loaded gun. Just cause someone made you a judge doesn't mean you are smart.

jj

chaim
July 13, 2008, 12:53 PM
Oh, I want to stress that I'm not attacking our OP, he probably didn't even notice any connotations of the name of the guy from OpenCarry.org. Just pointing out some disturbing connotations of the guy's name from Open Carry. We need to be very careful of who represents us and how they do it- if you want to push certain issues in the public conscious you need to look very clean cut, and ideally we want people who break stereotypes doing it (the young mom, the businessman, the Orthodox Jew, black Americans, Asian-Americans, etc.). Already, the general public sees us as a bunch of "militia" types, Neo-Nazis, KKK members, racists, and just general nuts. We want to fight these images and show the public that we are just like them if we have any chance of winning the public relations fight and keep our gun rights long-term.

thx997303
July 13, 2008, 01:20 PM
Could you clarify the connotations of the name of the person from Open carry.

I just don't know what you're referring to is all.

chaim
July 13, 2008, 01:27 PM
I thought I spelled it out pretty well. See post #12, second to last paragraph.

rich0372
July 13, 2008, 01:38 PM
I carry in walmart all the time...conceal carry I live in CT so I have to conceal. I thought it was wierd that when I went to purchase ammo( I was buying 30/30 ammo) they asked for my CCL., usually they just ask for a DL to verify age. I told the employee that what if I didn't have a CCL cause in Ct you don't have to have a CCL to buy a rifle she said it was store policy that since they have to check your age they might as well check your CCL. Then I said but in Ct you have to be 21 for a CCL but only 18 to buy ammo. She didn't have an answer just saying that's what she was told to do. If I wasn't in a rush I would have spoken to the manager about this as it dosn't make sense I know at Dick's they ask for a CCL whenever you buy pistol ammo they say it's a store policy but not rifle ammo??

buck460XVR
July 13, 2008, 01:38 PM
sorry..............but considering SOME of the folk I see shopping at Wal-Mart, I wouldn't want them to be armed either.:what:



............just sayin'.:D

SCKimberFan
July 13, 2008, 01:53 PM
Clarification on the SC Judge:

The woman judge was actually a district magistrate, and it was a Sams Club, not a Wally World, although they are sister companies.

Green Lantern
July 13, 2008, 02:06 PM
Also, as far as Walmart being anti gun, three new supercenters have been built nearby in the past two years. They DO NOT and WILL NOT sell or order guns. The older stores still do, but some of those are backing off of selling entirely

Huh...the newest Wal-Mart around here wasn't a Supercenter, but they started off with NO plans to sell guns. Dunno what happened, but now they have a fully-stocked gun section.

I thought Wal-Mart was, for all their faults, a place that at least was vehement about letting CUSTOMERS that CCW practice their rights (to hell with their employees tho).

But ever since they crawled into bed with King Mike Bloomberg, I can't say I'm shocked to hear this.

This may be good for the country as a whole - people all OVER are starting to wake up to the notion that China owning us is BAD. Cheap(ish) ammo was the last use I had for Wally World, now I say (as every CCWer should) to the devil with 'em! :cuss:

sturmgewehr
July 13, 2008, 02:06 PM
I agree with other posters, conceal it and don't worry about it. I carry into Wal-Mart all the time. They have no sign and even if they did I would ignore it as in my state it's not against the law to ignore such signs. If they discover I'm armed, all they can do is ask me to leave. I've never had an issue with it.

bogie
July 13, 2008, 02:08 PM
Some wal-marts sell guns. Some don't.

Some gas stations sell beer, ammo and bait. Some don't.

I suspect they have a "policy," which they aren't going to get all nutso about enforcing.

I'm not a huge fan of the "open carry" movement... I think it's too soon to some of the other stuff that has gone in our favor, and I think that coming across with an aggressive in-yer-face attitude is going to be viewed negatively by a lot of fence sitters. And a LOT of the "open carry" folks are pretty aggressive about it.

In addition, all it takes is some doofus thinking that he's gonna play hero and grab that evil gun, and you've got a major problem. And those folks ARE out there...

Big45
July 13, 2008, 02:19 PM
Every time you see a sign that had a handgun with an X across it on the front of a store, think of that as saying 'No Blacks Allowed' or 'Whites Only'.

It's the same sort of biased discrimination.


Not even close. Wal Mart is not discriminating against YOU. They just don't want you to bring your certain little piece of inanimate metal into THIER store. They own the joint, they can run it how they see fit.

"Gun owner" is not a race.

This open carry movement is great but please, if pp owners ask you to leave or disarm, why is it the OC nation gets all pissy and rants online all night about it. Check your ego, be polite, leave the privately owned space, and either comply, don't go back, or ccw. Good Lord.

Zedicus
July 13, 2008, 02:21 PM
same stuff is Happening in Idaho, but people are Taking Action over it here and getting results.

Read about it at these links.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum20/13152.html
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum20/13030.html

B yond
July 13, 2008, 02:28 PM
Every time you see a sign that had a handgun with an X across it on the front of a store, think of that as saying 'No Blacks Allowed' or 'Whites Only'.

Apples and oranges. Blacks cannot leave their skin in their car.

Businesses and property owners have the right to prohibit weapons. You have the right to not go there.

I won't be shopping at wally world anymore, just like I wouldn't go to someone's house that doesn't trust me to carry my weapon.

I wonder though, if Wal-Mart would be open to a lawsuit if a CCW'er who left his/her weapon in the car per the no-gun policy was injured on the premises as a result of not being able to defend him/herself.

HeavyDuty
July 13, 2008, 02:33 PM
That said, I'm surprised no one else picked up on the name of the poster on OpenCarry.org the OP quoted "schwarzi88". Schwarz is "black" in German, it can be a common name (just like Schwartz is black in Yiddish and a common name). However, he has it in lowercase letters (implying the word, not the name) and I wonder what the "i" after the word means (in Yiddish the soft "a" sound at the end makes it mean the same as the "n" word). That combined with the 88 makes me wonder- I've never seen 88 as an identifier for anyone but members of a certain group. The Neo-Nazis love it, the 8 stands for the 8th letter of the alphabet (h), the 88 or double H stands for the Nazi slogan which I don't wish to repeat (heil then the name of the leader). It does make me wonder if he did anything to antagonize the store management other than carry (such as certain tattoos, certain slogans on his t-shirt, etc.).


Good catch.

Aguila Blanca
July 13, 2008, 02:34 PM
I carry in walmart all the time...conceal carry I live in CT so I have to conceal. I thought it was wierd that when I went to purchase ammo( I was buying 30/30 ammo) they asked for my CCL., usually they just ask for a DL to verify age. I told the employee that what if I didn't have a CCL cause in Ct you don't have to have a CCL to buy a rifle she said it was store policy that since they have to check your age they might as well check your CCL. Then I said but in Ct you have to be 21 for a CCL but only 18 to buy ammo. She didn't have an answer just saying that's what she was told to do. If I wasn't in a rush I would have spoken to the manager about this as it dosn't make sense I know at Dick's they ask for a CCL whenever you buy pistol ammo they say it's a store policy but not rifle ammo??
I have bought ammunition in Wal*Marts in several states, including Connecticut, and I have never been asked to provide either a DL or a CCW.

'Course, it might be because it's been a loooong time since anyone might have thought I was under 18, or even under 21. Mostly, they don't even ask -- I hear the register beed when they scan the box, I know the screen is showing the "age?" prompt, and the clerks mostly just look at me and hit the "Yes" key.

Asking for a DL or a CCW might be a particular store's policy, but it isn't Wal*Mart's corporate policy.

rich0372
July 13, 2008, 02:37 PM
have bought ammunition in Wal*Marts in several states, including Connecticut, and I have never been asked to provide either a DL or a CCW.

'Course, it might be because it's been a loooong time since anyone might have thought I was under 18, or even under 21. Mostly, they don't even ask -- I hear the register beed when they scan the box, I know the screen is showing the "age?" prompt, and the clerks mostly just look at me and hit the "Yes" key.

Asking for a DL or a CCW might be a particular store's policy, but it isn't Wal*Mart's corporate policy.

I'm 36 and don't look young, I have been to 3 differnt wamarts and they all ask for ID (they have to verify age) but the one in Wallingford asked for CCL.

22-rimfire
July 13, 2008, 02:40 PM
There are something like 12 Walmart Super Centers within 20 miles of where I live. Within 50 miles, the number climbs to something like 35. Pretty amazing really.

Walmart is killing small town stores. They are killing Kmart. Target seems to have found a comfortable niche in the market. But Target does not sell guns or ammunition at any store I have been in for a long time. Nobody complains about them. Carry concealed. I don't like the apparent attitude of some of the open carry folks; the average citizen is just not ready for this step yet. Give it time.

Walmart centralized the sale of firearms to certain stores in each region. I see that as a smart business decision. They sell ammunition at most stores however.

AK103K
July 13, 2008, 02:48 PM
I agree with other posters, conceal it and don't worry about it.
Ditto here. I never understood why you would want to open carry in the first place, especially these days.

I was in a local Walmart here in PA a few months back when a boy came walking through with an openly holstered handgun on his belt. It was like a parade and was actually causing somewhat of a commotion, especially amongst store staff. Why would you want to draw that kind of attention to yourself? Open carry has been in the news a couple of times in recent months here, and all it does is rile up the sheep and aggravate the police. Seems to me, even if your 100% legal in doing so, if your causing a scene and and frightening the general public, they can still charge you with disorderly conduct or some other trivial nonsense type charges. Is it really worth the aggravation?

I guess some people just dont get any attention at home. :rolleyes:

RP88
July 13, 2008, 02:53 PM
I feel the same way: CCW makes it all so much easier.

However, then I looked at the money for the class and whatnot, plus the waiting period for the issuance (not the background check waiting period - the waiting period for them to process it through the court), not to mention waiting lists to actually take the class. You can drop as much as 200 bucks and wait as long as 3-4 months.

that is when I realized why people like open carry: it's free if you already have a good holster.

22-rimfire
July 13, 2008, 03:05 PM
However, then I looked at the money for the class and whatnot, plus the waiting period for the issuance (not the background check waiting period - the waiting period for them to process it through the court), not to mention waiting lists to actually take the class. You can drop as much as 200 bucks and wait as long as 3-4 months.

There are a lot of classes given here. You won't have to wait longer than a week or so. IF one is filled up, you take another. They run them all the time. As far as the time goes, I can sympathize, but like drilling for oil, there is no better time than the present to get on board. You might even learn a few things when you take the class.

GunDoctor
July 13, 2008, 03:09 PM
Before you accuse me of getting pissy more than you have read a little more carefully. They are saying that you can't CC either.

chris in va
July 13, 2008, 03:10 PM
A few weeks back, a female judge in my state (SC) was in a walmart supercenter with a young grandaughter

It was at a Sam's Club.

Seems to me, even if your 100% legal in doing so, if your causing a scene and and frightening the general public, they can still charge you with disorderly conduct or some other trivial nonsense type charges. Is it really worth the aggravation?


So, let's just go ahead and make it illegal. Not worth the aggrivation, right?

Aaron Baker
July 13, 2008, 03:14 PM
Well, except not really... they're saying that if they find out someone is concealed carrying, they'll ask them to leave.

That doesn't mean you can't. If there's no notice at the door, and you don't "know" about the policy, then you don't have any notice that you shouldn't be carrying.

If concealed means concealed, like it's supposed to, then who would ever know? If it's concealed, you won't be asked to leave, because they won't know.

Also, people seem to be suggesting that this is a change in corporate policy. I doubt it. It sounds like a specific store manager had a problem with a specific open carrier, and he asked corporate for legal advice. An individual corporate attorney gave him the specific advice he wanted. He's telling him that he has the right, as the store manager, under state law, to ask the guy to leave. That doesn't necessarily reflect Walmart's corporate policy.

Ask a legal question, get a legal answer. Ask a corporate policy question, the answer might be different.

I don't shop at Walmart anyway, as a matter of principal.

Aaron

George Hill
July 13, 2008, 03:14 PM
"Yeah, but WALMART is .35 cents less for a box of Winchester bulk! I'm going to keep buying my stuff from Walmart! I don't care. I have to drive a mile and a half farther to buy ammo or a new gun from a real gunshop. I don't care if they Perp Walk me out of the store even though I just passed a background check!" - Typical Walmart Customer.

SCREW WALMART.

chaim
July 13, 2008, 03:18 PM
Before you accuse me of getting pissy more than you have read a little more carefully. They are saying that you can't CC either.

I noticed that too. In some states with shall issue it is a crime to CCW in a private business that is posted as no CCW. However, their legal dept is even telling them they don't need a sign, most state laws I know of say they need the sign. So those who say "CCW anyway" may be OK if they don't post.

Still, brings the issue I brought up earlier: what good are shall issue CCW laws if they only place you can carry is on a walk or on a drive but you can't stop anywhere because most/all businesses ban carry on their property?


I don't set foot in Walmart any more than I have to (rarely, they may have something I need and I'm having trouble finding it elsewhere). I never buy ammo there anymore. I couldn't buy guns from them even if I wanted to, I don't know of a local Walmart that carries guns anymore.

chaim
July 13, 2008, 03:22 PM
Target seems to have found a comfortable niche in the market. But Target does not sell guns or ammunition at any store I have been in for a long time. Nobody complains about them.

If Target ever carried guns and ammo, it was long before they entered my market area. There is a big difference between having sold guns and ammo in the past and now ending that business over perceived liability, caving to antis, or whatever, and never having sold them to begin with (I also shop at my local grocery store even though they never sold guns and ammo, it isn't part of their business).

dmazur
July 13, 2008, 03:24 PM
OK, I read the whole thread and I see a lot of "private property" rights statements, black people can't leave their skin color at the door, and similar.

This may have had some validity pre-Heller, and I know Heller was only the start of the process or reversing the erosion of gun rights, but really -

Don't we believe that the 2nd Amendment was intended to protect a right to self-defense? (Not grant, but protect a prior inalienable right.)

When this basic right is found to be a right similar to other civil rights, we will have the same protection as female workers have against gender discrimination and people of color have against racial discrimination.

The fact that you can leave you gun in your car isn't the point. The property owner is discriminating against individuals who desire to protect themselves from serious injury, without providing a guaranteed space which makes that unnecessary. (Such as a nuclear power plant with metal detectors and a serious armed security force. They could argue that it is unlikely that you will encounter criminals inside the plant, so please leave weapons outside.)

I understand that present law permits them to discriminate in such a fashion. However, if we believe in the RKBA, how can we continue to support such discrimination?

It may be legal, but that doesn't make it right.

atblis
July 13, 2008, 03:39 PM
Target seems to have found a comfortable niche in the market. But Target does not sell guns or ammunition at any store I have been in for a long time. Nobody complains about them.
I'd wager that most people on here don't go to Target very often. About once year or less for me. Asides from Rittersport Chocolate, they don't sell anything I want.

D94R
July 13, 2008, 03:48 PM
I'm not a huge fan of the "open carry" movement... I think it's too soon to some of the other stuff that has gone in our favor, and I think that coming across with an aggressive in-yer-face attitude is going to be viewed negatively by a lot of fence sitters. And a LOT of the "open carry" folks are pretty aggressive about it.

I would assume, it's only those "in your face open carry folks" of which you refer to? Since not all OC'rs are there for the attention you describe.

Please explain these "in-yer-face" tactics which you speak of, and how many is 'a LOT'?. Please use some examples, since there should be 'a LOT' of them. (one out of a few thousand isn't going to cut it either, same could be said for about anything, you always have the extremes)

Please also explain how it's a "movement" and what "stuff" that it's too soon to be done for. Are you referring to the Heller decision as somehow sparking an OC pandemic? Or what other events are you saying the OC'rs are moving too fast on?

I'd simply like to know. As an OCer who carried before I even studied up on what Heller was, and as an OCer who didn't use the later decision as a reason or excuse to OC either. I also haven't used any previous case, ruling, decision, meeting etc to OC. I simply do because I do.

AK103K
July 13, 2008, 03:50 PM
So, let's just go ahead and make it illegal. Not worth the aggrivation, right?
I never said that we should make anything illegal, I simply asked if its worth the aggravation. Its certainly not worth mine. But hey, if you want to open carry, knock yourself out. Makes it a lot easier to see who has a gun and who doesnt, which I personally think is a big down side to it, and all the attention you gather takes the attention of those of us that would prefer to remain anonymous.

Maybe to put this in a little different light......

So you have a somebody coming over to give you a price on some work you want done around the house, and when he shows up, you "really" dont like the looks of him right off. Then he turns to the side, and hes wearing a gun. You going to ask him to come in, or not? Its your house, your rules. How are you feeling right about now?

If Walmart doesnt want you open carrying on their property, thats their prerogative. Quit your bitchin' and cover up or put it away, or go try it at Target, or K Mart, and see how you make out there. I'm sure you wont be hard to find, and you know how they always make you look on the 6 O'Clock news.(by the time they get done with the effects, you'll have a mullet and no teeth and rambling on like an idjit about lights or rights, or some such thing.) Hows that for attention, now EVERYBODY knows your a retard with a chip on their shoulder, AND a gun. Lucky You. :)

neviander
July 13, 2008, 03:52 PM
It is almost as if the antis realize they've lost the legal fight on carry and they've gone on a (quiet) campaign to get businesses to ban carry.

That's how banning smoking started, coerce private businesses into making a no smoking policy; now there are LAWS against it. They just passed an ordinance here in Tyler, TX that prohibits smoking in ANY public place, bars included :confused: :mad:

I try to keep in mind one of my favorite truisms: The squeaky wheel gets the grease, that's how the anti's get what they want, they just keep whining and moaning, while the sane citizens are busy trying raise their families...We just need to stay squeakier than them :D

dracphelan
July 13, 2008, 03:54 PM
I suggest that everyone spend a large amount of money at a competitor (remember, grocery stores are competitors for most Walmarts) and fax a copy of the receipt with a note explaining that you would have spent this money at there stores, but you won't go in because they don't allow conceal carry.
When you demonstrate that their policy is costing them money, you might get the policy changed.

I still say Sam Walton (Walmart's founder) would be spinning in his grave if he saw the company today. He insisted on trying to find US suppliers whenever possible. And, he have free Sam's memberships to members of the military. Both of these policies changed shortly after he died.

B yond
July 13, 2008, 03:59 PM
In some (maybe most) states you can cc even if they have a sign posted without violating any laws. If they ask you to leave you have to go or face trespassing charges. If they don't notice there's no problem.

Novus Collectus
July 13, 2008, 03:59 PM
A while back a Wal-Mart employee was attacked by an ex-husband while in the store. She was repeatedly stabbed and was seconds away from death when.....a concealed carry permit holder shot him and saved her life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM (the video starts 16 seconds in so let it run for a little. It takes forever to load too, but it is worth the wait.)

sig2022shooter
July 13, 2008, 04:01 PM
Wonder if this is because of that guy that recently shot himself in the leg with his CCW while in a wal-mart in Florida.

esmith
July 13, 2008, 04:04 PM
Me? I loathe CHINA*MART. I think they treat their employees like dirt and they dump cheap inferior crap on hapless customers. CHINA*MART is killing small-town commerce.

Oh so i guess those people are forced to work there. Yeah, and peope are forced to shop there too. Don't like it, don't work or shop there.

I, personally, will shop to get the best buy. Say i want a shovel. Why would i go to the mom and pop store to buy the same Do It Best shovel for 5 bucks more that I can get at Wal-Mart? Because i feel sorry because they can't compete? Hell no, even if i did get a shovel from them it wouldn't help. Wal-Mart is good for one thing, getting stuff that you need that doesn't require a lot of service from Wal-Mart.

Green Lantern
July 13, 2008, 04:15 PM
That said, I'm surprised no one else picked up on the name of the poster on OpenCarry.org the OP quoted "schwarzi88". Schwarz is "black" in German, it can be a common name (just like Schwartz is black in Yiddish and a common name). However, he has it in lowercase letters (implying the word, not the name) and I wonder what the "i" after the word means (in Yiddish the soft "a" sound at the end makes it mean the same as the "n" word). That combined with the 88 makes me wonder- I've never seen 88 as an identifier for anyone but members of a certain group. The Neo-Nazis love it, the 8 stands for the 8th letter of the alphabet (h), the 88 or double H stands for the Nazi slogan which I don't wish to repeat (heil then the name of the leader). It does make me wonder if he did anything to antagonize the store management other than carry (such as certain tattoos, certain slogans on his t-shirt, etc.).

Hmmm...by jove Holmes, you might be on to something!

As for the "CCW anyway" people, this is worth repeating:

Before you accuse me of getting pissy more than you have read a little more carefully. They are saying that you can't CC either.

Sure, if they think they don't need a sign, they're dead wrong in most states, thus you ARE legal to CCW in there...

But given that it's plain that they don't want ya to, why do you want to help line their pockets???

ASM826
July 13, 2008, 04:23 PM
We need to be very careful of who represents us and how they do it-

Just like you have no control over how other people exercise their First Amendment rights, even if you totally disagree with them, you have no control over how someone chooses to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. They can form an organization, solicit members, promote open carry. You can think they should be more restrained, you can choose to not join them and their organization, but no amount of care on your part is going to change what they choose to do.


So you have a somebody coming over to give you a price on some work you want done around the house, and when he shows up, you "really" dont like the looks of him right off. Then he turns to the side, and hes wearing a gun. You going to ask him to come in, or not? Its your house, your rules. How are you feeling right about now?

So you have a right to the 2nd, but the workman doesn't? If you don't like his looks, send him on his way. If it's just the fact he carrying, well, at least you know it if he's open carrying. If we are taking a stand for the 2nd Amendment, and saying that we believe in the right of the people to carry arms, it doesn't just mean the ones we like the looks of, or the ones from our ethnic group, or just us, the members of THR, it means all the people. If you want him to carry, but you just don't want to see it, then you don't understand his rights.

atblis
July 13, 2008, 04:23 PM
Sure, if they think they don't need a sign, they're dead wrong in most states, thus you ARE legal to CCW in there...
Walmart doesn't make the assertion that it'll be illegal for you to CCW or OC. Simply that they can ask you to leave, and if you don't they can then have the police intervene. Trespassing most likely would be the charge.

M203Sniper
July 13, 2008, 05:22 PM
STOP SHOPPING AT WAL-MART:fire:

Wal-Mart is striking a deal with New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg on tighter standards for gun sales. Guns have suddenly taken center stage in the race for the White House, as the candidates make their claim to understand "the values" of blue-collar voters in small town America.

Wal-Mart is the nation's largest seller of firearms and Bloomberg is an outspoken gun control advocate.
...
Under the group's Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership, Wal-Mart will agree to keep certain records.

http://wcbstv.com/politics/wal.mart.bloomberg.2.699395.html



Tuesday, April 15th 2008, 4:00 AM

WASHINGTON - Mayor Bloomberg's national anti-gun campaign won a big victory at Wal-Mart on Monday - and inserted itself into the presidential race with a new TV ad.

Surrounded by Republican and Democratic mayors from dozens of cities, Bloomberg announced that Wal-Mart, the country's biggest gun seller, will put tight new controls on firearms sales - including videotaping every purchase - to keep them out of the hands of criminals.

"This partnership has the potential to set a new standard for gun dealers across the country," Bloomberg said. "We want customers and police officers to ask, does this dealer follow the Wal-Mart standard? And if not, why not?"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/04/15/2008-04-15_antigun_crusader_bloomberg_salutes_walma.html



http://www.redpills.org/?p=1070

Kind of Blued
July 13, 2008, 05:44 PM
...and make sure they know why you've stopped, otherwise, it's pointless.

Zedicus
July 13, 2008, 05:47 PM
Glad the only thing I "Occasionally buy" there is cheap motor/Transmission oil....

That will be ending ASAP though.

esmith
July 13, 2008, 05:48 PM
Talk about it all you like, you aren't going to stop Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is a separate breathing entity. Too many people, too much money. Wal-Mart was not a bad company, those in charge of it have corrupted it.

.45&TKD
July 13, 2008, 05:57 PM
It's their store - they're free to apply whatever policy they like.

That's what they used to say about blacks in white only stores.

A civil right is a civil right. If they are open to the public then they should open to the public without irrational discrimination.

Green Lantern
July 13, 2008, 06:41 PM
Talk about it all you like, you aren't going to stop Wal-Mart.

Us gunnies alone can't - even if all 80 mil of us were bothered enough to try.

But as I said earlier, many people, gun owners or NOT, are starting to wake up and see the folly of the "Chinamart" model... Heck of the whole "global economy" deal of turning the USA into a BUYER of all instead of a SELLER of all...

Lead toys and sunglasses, salmonella tomatoes, POISON heparain...what more evidence to we need?

FCFC
July 13, 2008, 07:45 PM
$378,799,000,000

Wal-Mart 2007 Revenues

FieroCDSP
July 13, 2008, 08:08 PM
Walmart, being a private company, has every right to deny service or entrance to someone so long as it's not based on color, race, religion, etc. Even then, they can, they just won't win a suit over it.

This sucks, but until there's a federal law passed that guarantees us the right to carry on any private property regardless of what the owners say, it's going to stick that way.

If you carry into any private business, and they don't like you carrying, they can ask you to leave. If you don't, it's criminal trespassing. That's a fact. Rosa Park it all you want, but the public doesn't see violations of the 2A in the same light as blacks being refused service etc. Fighting it in that manner, that of going in OC and refusing to leave, is not only pointless, it's stupid.
The better way to clear off the no-gun signs is to speak with managers in a civil tone, explain the actual law, the deterrent effect, and that you will discuss their policy with your friends and resolve to shop elsewhere. It might not work on a major company like wally-world, but your smaller, local shops are needing your business to even survive against walmart. Many of them are receptive to law-abiding citizens carrying in their business once you address their fears and ignorance of the concept.

BTW, the only thing a lack of signs does in Walmart's case is prevent the cops from nailing you with the state laws that cover restricted zones. They want your business, not the hassle. So just don't shop there.

Thunder496
July 13, 2008, 09:07 PM
In Texas I believe the law requires display of state mandated signs anywhere CW are not aloud even private property that is open to the public like Wally World. Right now Texas is a CC state, but there is a push for OC. I think that if Texas ever goes OC there will be a lot more cases of people being asked to leave there weapon in the vehicle, and a lot more of those signs popping up. To me CC means out of sight out of mind. I would like to not worry about if my T-shirt is covering my gun or not, but I don’t want to be hassled because a store manager who was too lazy to post a sign sees a gun on my hip, and doesn’t want it in their store. I also would rather a scumbag try to screw with me than find an “easier target”. As far as Wal-Mart goes I’m sure Sam Walton is spinning in his grave over what his company has become since he died.

GunDoctor
July 13, 2008, 09:15 PM
That said, I'm surprised no one else picked up on the name of the poster on OpenCarry.org the OP quoted "schwarzi88". Schwarz is "black" in German, it can be a common name (just like Schwartz is black in Yiddish and a common name). However, he has it in lowercase letters (implying the word, not the name) and I wonder what the "i" after the word means (in Yiddish the soft "a" sound at the end makes it mean the same as the "n" word). That combined with the 88 makes me wonder- I've never seen 88 as an identifier for anyone but members of a certain group. The Neo-Nazis love it, the 8 stands for the 8th letter of the alphabet (h), the 88 or double H stands for the Nazi slogan which I don't wish to repeat (heil then the name of the leader). It does make me wonder if he did anything to antagonize the store management other than carry (such as certain tattoos, certain slogans on his t-shirt, etc.).

I thought I would post the reply schwarzi88 had on open carry on the above subject.

LMWFAO i'm white german my political belives are MINE and should intrest noone else..... that being said some people seem to see nazis every where Paranoia whatever u may call it **** that name was on a random email i sighned up for and i just kept it for over 10 years lol Clear enough PPL!!!

thx997303
July 13, 2008, 09:27 PM
What is up with this assertion that Open carriers are going into places that don't like carry, then refusing to leave if asked?

We are NOT doing that, and anyone who did that would meet with much scrutiny, disbelief, and disapproval.

Study it, look at the threads on opencarry.org

Oh, and about just concealing, there are a few of us that cannot get a permit due to age. What are they supposed to do? Go unarmed?

Are their lives any less important than those who have a permit?
I don't think so.

Joe Cool
July 13, 2008, 09:29 PM
I was told all Wal-Marts sell nothing gun related, no ammo, scopes, slings, etc.
When I asked why, they said it was policy for all Wal-Mart Stores in NJ due to all the restrictions. :fire:

So I don't shop there, ever, for anything. We have to just vote with our wallets... :neener:

RedLion
July 13, 2008, 09:50 PM
My Wal-mart has the lowest price on 12 ga shells in my town and I am 19 and they don't even bother with checking my ID. The shells are also sitting out on a shelf where there are no cameras looking. The clerks I talk to in the firearms dept. are always giving me advice about which brand of slugs shoot best or which shot shells pattern best. They seem to know their guns better than some clerks in Gander Mountain.

The reason I think walmart is against have guns on their property and selling guns/ammo is because they are looking to increase profits. They know if someone gets shot in their store for whatever reason they are getting sued like no other.

As you can see by this thread, Walmart already has a bad reputation, they don't need it any worse by having people getting shot on their property. You can say that it is bad, or walmart is doing the wrong thing, but it isn't what is right or wrong, but what customers and the media PERCEIVE to be right or wrong.

If a gunman comes into walmart and kills a bunch of people, it was the gun's fault, or the gun stores fault or the NRA's fault.

If walmart allows guns in their store and someone gets hurt by accident or purpose, Walmart is at fault, then gun, then NRA.

K-mart got a terrible rap for selling the bullets used in columbine, they even got on "Bowling for Columbine" for their sale and phased out their sale of ammunition because of media pressure, but I doubt walmart would have gotten off so easy.

FieroCDSP
July 13, 2008, 10:09 PM
What is up with this assertion that Open carriers are going into places that don't like carry, then refusing to leave if asked?

I was refering to the tone some have taken here that a business declining service to someone with a legally carried gun is committing the equivalent of refusing to serve blacks, hispanics, etc. It's simply not in the same league in the public eye, and since the mantra is not "shall not be discriminated against due to age, race, religion, nor whether they carry a gun", it's still perfectly legal to say you don't want those stinkin, hick gunnies in your shop.

Personally, I believe we should be permitted to carry OC or concealed in any and all public places (businesses open to the public also), libraries, town meetings (regardless of where they're held), sporting events, etc. I'm a bit up in the air on courtrooms and police stations, but I am certain that if a police station has a range, it should be open to public use (at least one day a week) for a suitable fee. Hell, it's already being paid for by taxes, the people should get to use it.

I was also pointing out that a business has the right to ask you to leave their property. If you refuse, it's in violation of the law (perhaps I should say "in many places"). It was not implying that there's a mass movement to force businesses to allow us to OC by refusing to not leave then getting arrested. I was pointing it out for those who stumble on this thread and might not know what the consequences are.

Oh, and about just concealing, there are a few of us that cannot get a permit due to age. What are they supposed to do? Go unarmed?
Sometimes you'll have to go unarmed. Sucks, but that's life. I'm not allowed to carry on my job by company rules. So to keep my job, I dont. I can even lose my job for having it locked down in my car in my state, but that's a risk I'm willing to take, even if I choose not to while on the clock so as to keep my job.
Carry how and when you can, and fight to shift the boundries of those rules that restrict it. Understand that you're not the only one in this fight, and that just because I have more options availiable to me in regards to carry, it doesn't mean I don't care about how you do. The dislike of OC affects conceal permit holders also. Sometimes I'd prefer to OC rather than conceal, but it's not always appreciated by the masses.

Daemon688
July 13, 2008, 10:45 PM
Natural rights trump property rights any day of the week. We're talking about a business open to the public, not a person's domicile. If you don't agree that natural rights reign supreme, then there is no point in debating this point.

In which case, I think walmart should not allow homosexuals to shop in their stores. Since homosexuals are not a federally protected class, Walmart is in their private property rights to not allow homosexuals to shop there. Afterall, homosexuals who shop at Walmart would ruin the family atmosphere that the seek to provide.

Besides, if homsexuals don't like this policy they can shop elsewhere. Otherwise, they could just stop being homosexuals, afterall it's a choice they can make to stop being homosexuals.

I wonder how well that policy would go over :rolleyes:

GunDoctor
July 13, 2008, 10:46 PM
People have gotten shot at Walmart as you can see from their own security camara. This one atleast turned out alright.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM

RobMoore
July 13, 2008, 10:49 PM
I concealed carry my 1911 into walmart and will continue to do so as long as their price on WWB .45 remains the lowest around.

teknoid
July 13, 2008, 11:00 PM
anti Wal-Mart threads are as entertaining as they are numerous. I especially like the "China Mart" label. It's funny, really. Every store I've been in that sells the same type merchandise, carries the same brands Wally-World does. It's getting darned near impossible to find anything not made overseas. This includes Target, K Mart, Macy's, Kohl's, Lowes, Home Depot, the local hardware store, you name it.

While it's true they've gone down hill severely since Sam passed away, it has only brought them closer to the level of their competitors.

As for myself, I buy very few things there. This has nothing to do with weapons policies, as the ones here abide by state law. It's more to do with my severe distaste of crowds, and shopping in general. I'd rather pay more, just for the ability to get in and out faster.

Green Lantern
July 13, 2008, 11:14 PM
I especially like the "China Mart" label. It's funny, really. Every store I've been in that sells the same type merchandise, carries the same brands Wally-World does

Isn't Wal-Mart the innovator of the "sell cheap crap from China" model, though?

BTW, the only thing a lack of signs does in Walmart's case is prevent the cops from nailing you with the state laws that cover restricted zones. They want your business, not the hassle. So just don't shop there.

Agreed, they CAN kick you out for any reason whatsoever. It just seems VERY disingenuous of them to have an official policy of "no guns," yet not even bother posting signs about it. Methinks they want to have their cake and eat it too?

FCFC
July 14, 2008, 12:07 AM
1. Which of the following is the largest U.S. retailer of firearms?

a) Target

b) Cabela's

c) Dick's Sporting Goods

d) Macy's

e) Wal<hrrmph>


2. Which of the following retailers sells more ammunition than any other in the U.S?

a) Sports Authority

b) Sears

c) Bass Pro Shops

d) Amazon.com

e) <mmnph>-Mart

hso
July 14, 2008, 12:13 AM
I suggest that someone contact WalMart and verify the authenticity of those two documents before we play this game of "Rumor" any further.

When you've got copies directly from WalMart instead of pulled from some other website and posted as if they were fact, then a rational and factual discussion can be held.

Then you can open another thread with verified facts.

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