Always mention Switzerland


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telomerase
July 13, 2008, 11:54 AM
...In any discussion about the effects of guns on war, crime, or terrorism (http://www.lewrockwell.com/walker/walker32.html).

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Shung
July 13, 2008, 12:38 PM
http://feulibre.forumactif.com/users/23/92/28/smiles/suisse_z.gif

;)

La Pistoletta
July 13, 2008, 12:45 PM
How hard did you say is it to become a Swiss citizen? :p

KelVarnson
July 13, 2008, 01:27 PM
This is an interesting read, although I automatically question its overall accuracy, because of the tone in which it is written. The author sounds like a U.S. citizen who doesn't like his country all that much.

And THIS statement is absolutely ridiculous:

"The huge US war machine could not even intercept civilian airliners on 9-11"

We all know that the U.S. Military could shoot down airliners all day long, if they had a reason. Who knew those jets were going to crash into buildings?

Why do people even go there?

Frank Ettin
July 13, 2008, 02:07 PM
There's a lot to admire about the Swiss. But there's also something to remember when using Switzerland as an example of the value of private citizens having guns. It's my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong, Shung) that the Swiss have uniform compulsory military training. Every male spends some time in military and then remains, essentially in the reserves. He must keep his rifle, or other assigned weapon, at home together with a quantity of ammunition; and he must qualify periodically. He remains subject to some military authority and the chain of command.

I'm not saying that's a bad idea. In fact, I sort of like it. But since we've done away with the draft here, we've pretty much taken a different path.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 02:15 PM
You do what we call "recruit School" when you are around 20 (after what you call high school) for 4 to 5months .. it's kinda boot camp. You learn military basis, and than specialize. (Air force solider in my case) . Than, every year, you have a 3 weeks military course, in which you still get paid, as if you were working.

This, for a total of 300 days, or until you reach 34yo. Then you go to the reserve.

Now, if you want so, you can make what we call, LONG DUTY, and make all your 300 days at once, and then be in the reserve.

you also have a qualifiying shooting test each year, out of your military days.

Yes.. You are a citizen. who has rights, but also duties, for the country.

this year, I had to give up my 50rounds sealed ammo box.. we had them at home from WWII...

this because the ANTI here argued that it was too dangerous to have ammo AND rifle at home.. We still have the AR... I don't know for how much time..

Funny things, you can buy ammo very easely in Switzerland, so it doesnt change a damn thing... Explain that to anti...

We all know that the U.S. Military could shoot down airliners all day long

I've heard that your main air national guard squadrons in the area were occupied in an exercise that precise day, and were unable to react as they should have. Is this wrong ?

La Pistoletta
July 13, 2008, 02:25 PM
this because the ANTI here argued that it was too dangerous to have ammo AND rifle at home.. We still have the AR... I don't know for how much time..

Who was this anti who had the authority to do that?

KelVarnson
July 13, 2008, 02:33 PM
I've heard that your main air national guard squadrons in the area were occupied in an exercise that precise day, and were unable to react as they should have. Is this wrong ?

I am in no position to answer such a question. However, were such an order given, I would think the duty would fall upon the Air Force or the Navy, depending on who had assets in the area.

I would find it impossible to believe that there weren't at least a couple of fighters available for such a task. I think it is far more likely that no one had any idea what was about to happen. They may have suspected that these were just more typical hijackings.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 02:45 PM
Who was this anti who had the authority to do that?

mainly socialists and lefties.. backed up by the medias who love to spit about guns and gun owners each time that there is a drama about guns and when someone just get crazy..

They forced our politics by mediatic (and then public) pressure, to take the "emergency ammuntion box" away from the citizen serving the country (this ammo box was sealed (and forbidden to open), and was given to allow each soldier to rejoin his post safely in case of war or draft, fighting his way in, if necessary).

http://www.lba.admin.ch/internet/lba/fr/home/aktuell/taschenmunition.parsysrelated1.0002.Image.jpeg

Now, the same antis, after winning on ammo, are saying that without the ammo, the assault rifle at home is useless, and that it should stay at the arsenal..

however, this statement is quite uncompatible with our militia organisation and logistic.

God knows (even if he dosent exist) what's coming next..

Water-Man
July 13, 2008, 03:15 PM
There are fools in every country. Some more than others.

rainbowbob
July 13, 2008, 03:28 PM
Who knew those jets were going to crash into buildings?

And if we had known - what do you suppose the reaction would have been to shooting down domestic aircraft full of innocent citizens?

As for the Swiss. They are to be admired and envied but...

The real reason they have not been attacked in recent history was pin-pointed in the linked article. They are the bank, and any country attacking them would be burying their own bullion in the process.

And how many people have they liberated from oppressive dictators in the last 100 years? Then think about what the US has done in that regard, often without thanks and occasionally under condemnation from other countries and their own people.

WinchesterAA
July 13, 2008, 03:36 PM
Shung, that's tragic.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 03:40 PM
They are the bank, and any country attacking them would be burying their own bullion in the process

very true.

you must also admit that, for germany for example, it would have been extremely expensive (in lifes and money) to occupy a country like switzerland where everybody had a military rifle or pistol, and with a landscape very very adapted to guerilla (mountains, forrests, valleys, caves etc etc).

and dont forget something. For centuries, swiss were excellent mercernaries, and warriors feared by most armies they faced.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 03:41 PM
Shung, that's tragic.

what exactly ?

JaxNovice
July 13, 2008, 03:48 PM
The article has facts, half truths, opinions, omissions and outright BS.

WinchesterAA
July 13, 2008, 03:50 PM
You do what we call "recruit School" when you are around 20 (after what you call high school) for 4 to 5months .. it's kinda boot camp. You learn military basis, and than specialize. (Air force solider in my case) . Than, every year, you have a 3 weeks military course, in which you still get paid, as if you were working.

This, for a total of 300 days, or until you reach 34yo. Then you go to the reserve.

Now, if you want so, you can make what we call, LONG DUTY, and make all your 300 days at once, and then be in the reserve.

you also have a qualifiying shooting test each year, out of your military days.

Yes.. You are a citizen. who has rights, but also duties, for the country.

this year, I had to give up my 50rounds sealed ammo box.. we had them at home from WWII...

this because the ANTI here argued that it was too dangerous to have ammo AND rifle at home.. We still have the AR... I don't know for how much time..

Funny things, you can buy ammo very easely in Switzerland, so it doesnt change a damn thing... Explain that to anti...

If I understood what you said correctly, you live in switzerland, you were given a rifle and ammo as per temporary military duty, then someone spoke up and had your ammo taken away because it is "dangerous?"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how your post reads.

Ya'll have a reputation for being very peaceful people, and someone comes in and says that's all wrong? Ya'll are actually dangerous? Tragic.

bobbarker
July 13, 2008, 03:53 PM
Response to the Nat. Guard being occupied that day, and unable to shoot down. To my understanding (I wasn't there, but, from what I have read on the matter)They were involved in a Massive training exercise, and did not realize at first that this was an actual threat. They thought it was a part of the exercise. By the time they realized it WAS an actual threat, they didn't have time to bring the planes in and refit refuel with live ATA missles.

The thing about the Swiss compared to the US however,(Getting back on track to the OP) is that the Swiss do have mandatory service. The US, we are blessed with an all volunteer military. I would hate to see a return to the draft, not because I really care if some kid gets pulled out of college to strap up and go out, but because I don't want anyone there who didn't volunteer to go. When you force someone into service, and put them on the front lines, often times you wind up with people more concerned with their own welfare than the welfare of the guy to the left and right of him. I don't want that guy on my left or right. Biggest thing they pound into your head in boot camp, and throughout your time in the military, is "if you look out for yourself, you will get killed. Watch out for the guy at the left and right, and the guy at the left and right will do the same for you." That way if you get shot, there's two guys that know, and you can get a doc there faster.

Understand I'm not slamming the Swiss. They have a good system, and it works for them, and I would NOT want to be part of an invading force in Switzerland. I do prefer our system though.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 04:11 PM
If I understood what you said correctly, you live in switzerland, you were given a rifle and ammo as per temporary military duty, then someone spoke up and had your ammo taken away because it is "dangerous?"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how your post reads.

Ya'll have a reputation for being very peaceful people, and someone comes in and says that's all wrong? Ya'll are actually dangerous? Tragic.

you understood it well !!!

for a few cases of people getting crazy (murders commited with guns) , they considered, all citizen/soldiers unsafe to be given assault rifle AND AMMO.. We still are safe to serve the country over 300 days though..

Actually it is more a strategy from antis to forbid guns to everyone except LEO and professional military.. and it is part of their whole dishonnest process.

Understand I'm not slamming the Swiss. They have a good system, and it works for them, and I would NOT want to be part of an invading force in Switzerland. I do prefer our system though

you are very right here. our militia system works because we are not at any war for a long time.. I am not sure our population would accept our system if dead body would start coming in from foreign theaters.

They were involved in a Massive training exercise, and did not realize at first that this was an actual threat. They thought it was a part of the exercise. By the time they realized it WAS an actual threat, they didn't have time to bring the planes in and refit refuel with live ATA missles.

this is what I had read as well.

CZ.22
July 13, 2008, 04:16 PM
This Swiss still are good warriors. They protect the most important religious leader in the world.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 04:30 PM
They protect the most important religious leader in the world.

LoL, true.

http://68.img.v4.skyrock.com/68a/armee-suisse/pics/367625385.jpg

If you want to be a swiss guard you need to have served in the swiss army before. and the selection is hard.

However, im not sure we should defend everything that the pope says.. ;)

KelVarnson
July 13, 2008, 04:33 PM
Man, you'd have to be a bad-a$$ to wear one of those uniforms.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 04:38 PM
Its the antique parade uniform ! 17th century style i'd guess. (however designed in 1914)

it's the oldest and smallest active army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard

Robert Hairless
July 13, 2008, 05:12 PM
Yes.. You are a citizen. who has rights, but also duties, for the country.

What? What kind of country expects its citizens to defend it. That's so wrong, dude. It's not kewl.

cortez kid
July 13, 2008, 05:33 PM
I'm American-Italian by birth, but I'm American-Swiss by Schmidt-Rueben.;)
kid

Shung
July 13, 2008, 05:45 PM
What? What kind of country expects its citizens to defend it.

mine, for example.

That's so wrong, dude. It's not kewl

that is your opinion, dude ;)

I'm American-Italian by birth, but I'm American-Swiss by Schmidt-Rueben.
kid

My mother is Swiss and I was grown up here, but my father is Italian, and I was born there.
Where are you from, in Italy ?

KI.W.
July 13, 2008, 05:48 PM
I can to dismantle and build the cuckoo clock. May I to join to Swiss guard? :cool:

Hoppy590
July 13, 2008, 05:50 PM
Quote:
That's so wrong, dude. It's not kewl
that is your opinion, dude

i think it was in jest

Shung
July 13, 2008, 05:53 PM
"in jest"

what does that mean ? sorry, my english is not good enough.

do you mean it was a ironical comment ? if so... damn.. I got folled again ;)

basicblur
July 13, 2008, 05:54 PM
"The huge US war machine could not even intercept civilian airliners on 9-11"

From what I understand, the military commander in charge of military aircraft had to get clearance from the FAA in order to fly over NY/Manhattan. The military sounded like it was one of the few government organizations that were doing what it was assigned to do at the time-they bogged down when they ran into FAA bureaucracy. From what I understand, after a couple of unsuccessful attempts to cut through FAA bureaucracy, the commander said to hell with ‘em and ordered interceptors over NY.

I think the military may be getting a bit of a bum rap over this deal. Their “job” was to protect from outside threats coming in (I assume this has changed since 9-11). Some jets scrambled but flew away from the U.S. (as they were trained) before they were told what was going on-their first job was to get in the air and head over water, as trained, not sit on the ground waiting for an explanation/details before launching.

telomerase
July 13, 2008, 05:56 PM
this year, I had to give up my 50rounds sealed ammo box.. we had them at home from WWII...

this because the ANTI here argued that it was too dangerous to have ammo AND rifle at home.. We still have the AR... I don't know for how much time..


You know, the Norwegians tried keeping the militia weapons in the armories in 1940... apparently everyone has forgotten how well that worked :scrutiny:

(If anyone doesn't know, the Germans landed on some of the armories and took the Norwegians' heavy weapons).


Funny things, you can buy ammo very easely in Switzerland,

Oh! Well, that's OK then :D:D:D:D:D:D

(Thanks for filling us in on the state of affairs there, Shung!)

Shung
July 13, 2008, 06:01 PM
telomerase...

this prove how anti work.. they don't care about their actions and the (lack of) results.. they only act according to their dogma...

they got our ammo removed. tomorrow it will be our assault rifles.. (i beleive it's a matter of time, and how long we will resist)

that precise day I will stop serving my country, whatever it costs me.

If my country can trust me enough to take 300 days of my life, it HAS TO trust me having my rifle at home.. it's a 2 ways trust.. not 1 way..

Anyway, I have more than 30 guns in my small collection, and the day the anti take them all from me, is far from here.. veeery far..

KI.W.
July 13, 2008, 06:07 PM
Ich glaube, dass du zu sicher bist.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 06:10 PM
Glaubst du ? too sure about what ? .. ;) (btw, im from french speaking part of Switzerland.. not german.. ;) )

Pilot
July 13, 2008, 06:21 PM
Shung,

"In Jest" means that its said with humor or "kidding" in slang Engish. Basically, its says the person is joking. BTW, you're English is fine. We understand what you are saying.

Yes, Geneva is French speaking and Zurich is German speaking. The country is essentially split in half. I skiied at Davos several times. Beautiful, just beautiful.

KI.W.
July 13, 2008, 06:25 PM
Shung, I am from Finnish speaking part from Finland. I speak Swedish and German too. Why you don´t speak Garmany, Italian or Rhaeto-Romanic?

Shung
July 13, 2008, 06:44 PM
to KI W

Parlo benissimo l'Italiano, anche perche lo sono a metà. Sono nato in Italia 27 anni fà-

Und ich kann auch deutch sprechen, wenn du willst :) Sie gaben mir kein Wahl in der Schule. So hatte ich diese Sprache auch gelernt.

As for romanche, sorry, but i can't : never was taught, neither wanted. Only a very small part of Swiss people can actually talk that language-

If you add english, that makes 4 languages spoken and written (some better than others). I guess it's not THAT bad after all.. ;)

Thx for the explanation Pilot. As i thought, it's 2 second time I've been fooled that way in a month.. I have to be more carefull ;)

and actually we are more split in 4 than in 2... German, French, Italian, and Romanche.. (the first 2 being the vast majority)

OldCowHand
July 13, 2008, 06:50 PM
Regarding shooting down airliners, there is a useful timeline at http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/16/pentagon-timeline.htm. There was no SOP to shoot down civilian aircraft at the hour of the morning when the crashes were occurring. By the time the new SOP was created, the last of the attacking planes was down.

Of course, in "der Schwyz," supersonic fighter aircraft would be able to respond more quickly, since they have to fly in tight circles to stay within the borders :neener: ...

Shung
July 13, 2008, 06:58 PM
der Schweiz we say ;)

btw, our F/A-18s are doing pretty well up there.. sure, you have to jerk the stick a bit ;)

I never blamed the ANG or USAF btw.. I only said what i had read about that precise day and situation.

being in the Swiss Air Force (and working around ATOs), I fully understand how complicated and impossible was the task and the reaction they had to establish that day of september..

Last year we managed 24/24 Combat Air Patrols over DAVOS to cover the World Economic Forum.. that meaned lots of work for me (16hours work, 8 hours sleep/wash/eat) for 15 days..

chris in va
July 13, 2008, 07:10 PM
Shung, I hope you and others like yourself are fighting that ammo confiscation ruling tooth and nail. Please do NOT let it proceed further as best you can help it.

It's like watching a local crack dealer telling a little 8 year old on the block, "here...try this!":fire:

KI.W.
July 13, 2008, 07:11 PM
Shung, sorry, I can´t speak or write in English. Only this bad language.
It is 2.10 am here in Finland. I must to go to the bed, because at 10 am must to be shooting range. I am very near to 70 year old and need to sleep for target shooting. :scrutiny: :) :scrutiny:

Shung
July 13, 2008, 07:18 PM
happy shooting in finland :) !

(so you are not that finish guy of youtube shooting watermelons from both hands ? ) ;)

Shung, I hope you and others like yourself are fighting that ammo confiscation ruling tooth and nail. Please do NOT let it proceed further as best you can help it.

too late unfortunately. When I had to give it up, I said to my officer that it was a stupid move, because everyone had ammo at home anyway, and that I firmly disagreed with that policy.. (which was useless, and only a mean for than anti, to get rid of our assault rifle , in the next step)

he told me.. : "me too soldier"..

we are now focusing on the next battles.

telomerase
July 13, 2008, 07:19 PM
There was no SOP to shoot down civilian aircraft at the hour of the morning when the crashes were occurring.

Yes, to the many posters who want to uphold the honor of the Air Force:

IF someone sends the Air Force a challenge through the proper channels, and IF the Air force accepts, and if they decide to produce a written SOP (how about "turn on gun switches"?) and IF the weather is nice, the Air Force can then shoot down anything made before 1980. As long as there aren't too many of them to overload our 200 fighters or whatever it is now.

But real wars don't start with challenges to duels, and there are no rules... the next cities may be destroyed by bombs in trucks, or diseases spread by birds, or rent controls spread by stupidity. Wait, I don't think Civil Defense can stop rent control.

Anyway, the point is that no matter how big and expensive the military, there's always a way around it. Thus the need to encourage civil defense, in the most decentralized form possible.

KI.W.
July 13, 2008, 07:24 PM
I am not lunatic, I keep eating watermelons. :D

chris in va
July 13, 2008, 07:27 PM
But real wars don't start with challenges to duels

What was the Civil War then? I live about 45 minutes from Harper's Ferry.

eflatminor
July 13, 2008, 08:02 PM
Our country was founded by Federalists and Anti Federalists and both feared a standing army more than anything else. The Anti Federalists wanted NO standing army and that all able bodied men would protect the country if needed (like Switzerland does now). They also wanted a Bill of Rights in the Constitution to specifically spell out the more the important rights of the people. They felt the Bill of Rights was the more important issue of the two.

The Federalists felt a Bill of Rights was unnecessary, feeling that these rights were a set of principals, of truisms, in which EVERYBODY believed and that the Federal government had no power to curtail. The Federalists didn't like the idea of a standing army either but, at the end of the day, more of Founders felt that it was necessary.

I have to say that I would have opposed America having a standing army. I like the way Switzerland does it and I think it would have worked much better for our country. I think this type of organized national self defense tends to suppress military expansionism and intervention in the affairs of other countries. As a Libertarian leaning guy, I appreciate that aspect of such a set up. I also think a citizen army makes a country safer than a standing army such as we have today.

For what it's worth, whatever their disagreements about the inclusion of a bill of rights in the Constitution, they were unanimous in their support of an individual right to keep and bear arms.

RedLion
July 13, 2008, 08:13 PM
The features of the Swiss system for keeping the peace are simple. They have a president with no power to declare war (of course ours can’t either, but no one has told HIM). They have a very small professional army, even small per capita. And they have very strict gun control. By which they mean that every Swiss male must have a gun, except for those who also have to carry a missile launcher or a mortar. Swiss women are not subject to compulsory military service, but many of them frequent the rifle ranges anyway. In the event of any attack on Switzerland, the whole Swiss population becomes the army.

As an additional deterrent against megalomania, the Swiss have rigged the tunnel vaults of their banks for demolition. Any dictator attacking Switzerland will find the gold in his numbered bank account buried in rubble hundreds of meters under mountains swarming with snipers and missile launchers. It is known that Hitler had a numbered account... maybe that was in the back of his mind when he chickened out.

Personally, I would not rely on the rationality of attacking forces to save myself. Look at the cold war and especially the Cuban missile crisis, and think about how many times that could happen before someone does something 'irrational'.

avmech
July 13, 2008, 08:40 PM
Shung------off topic------my "commune d'origine" is Oulens-s-Echallens, canton de Vaud, used to live in Yverdon.

Shung
July 13, 2008, 08:59 PM
Hey ! I hope you are fine over there !

I whish one day I'll go the same way ! (not Florida however.. )

Aguila Blanca
July 13, 2008, 11:12 PM
The thing about the Swiss compared to the US however,(Getting back on track to the OP) is that the Swiss do have mandatory service. The US, we are blessed with an all volunteer military. I would hate to see a return to the draft, not because I really care if some kid gets pulled out of college to strap up and go out, but because I don't want anyone there who didn't volunteer to go. When you force someone into service, and put them on the front lines, often times you wind up with people more concerned with their own welfare than the welfare of the guy to the left and right of him. I don't want that guy on my left or right. Biggest thing they pound into your head in boot camp, and throughout your time in the military, is "if you look out for yourself, you will get killed. Watch out for the guy at the left and right, and the guy at the left and right will do the same for you." That way if you get shot, there's two guys that know, and you can get a doc there faster.
I get awfully tired of the undeserved bad rap draftees get from people who most likely don't have any idea what they're talking about. I served in Vietnam in the late 60s. I happened to be Regular Army, but most of the guys with whom I served were draftees. And with VERY few exceptions, unless you looked at their personnel file and saw that the service number began with 'US' instead of 'RA,', you couldn't tell who was a draftee and who was an enlistee.

Personally, although I understand full well that I am now doing what I am objecting to, I have to wonder if the National Guard guys (and gals) over in the sand box are any different from the draftees with whom I served in 'Nam. After all, they enlisted for the bonus money and the college tuition. They didn't expect to be sent to Iraq -- and then sent back to Iraq, and then sent to Afghanistan, and then sent to Iraq again. They expected pretty much a free ride through college in exchange for playing soldier a couple of weekends a month.

I don't see much difference at all, the more I think about it.

OldCowHand
July 14, 2008, 12:53 AM
der Schweiz we say
Only when you're talking to foreigners. I bin i dr Schwyz gsy, und cha noch öppis Schwyzerdüütsch :D

paramedic70002
July 14, 2008, 01:04 AM
Papal guards...wanna speculate what they carry under their pretty suits?

Air defense...As I remember, the first (and few) 2 fighters over DC were NG weekenders from Langley AFB in Hampton (SE VA), they got scrambled while they were chilling in the ready room.

Why there were no other fighters capable of going to CAP over DC escapes me. FWIW and IIRC, the NG fighters were unarmed, and would have had to crash themselves into any targets to stop the threat.

Kind of Blued
July 14, 2008, 05:52 AM
I have a really fancy Swiss watch that started acting up a month ago. It ticks five seconds at a time now instead of one at a time. Interestingly enough, it's still spot on.

Shung
July 14, 2008, 06:31 AM
I bin i dr Schwyz gsy, und cha noch öppis Schwyzerdüütsch

damn, I didnt expect that !

alles klar then ;)

U.S.SFC_RET
July 14, 2008, 06:43 AM
I went to Switzerland in '91. I seen soldiers, without supervision and with fully automatic rifles go to and from their homes on public trains.
It is a mindset in their culture. There is no way you can explain any of their laws on how strict they are with their ammunition control or whatever.

I seen them by the hundreds, in the train stations and alone without leadership. Full Automatic rifles attached to their backpacks.

The responsibility for any misuse of that weapon belongs to that swiss soldier in that country.

In the United States:
Responsibility= Heads will roll to the highest level possible. Always

Shung
July 14, 2008, 07:09 AM
seen soldiers, without supervision and with fully automatic rifles go to and from their homes on public trains.

we still do :) (and worse :) )

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/94/71/06/th/back210.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=41&u=11947106)

don't panic, its a mock up

Moonclip
July 14, 2008, 07:34 AM
To be a Swiss guard you also have to be a Catholic:) Also I think you have to be over 6 feet tall. I've seen them in person. They also wear a less dress version of the uniform in blue.

IIRC they are trained on how to use the halbard, it is not just ceremonial. In a book I have the serial # range of the 100 K31 Schmidt-Rubin rifles the Swiss Guards used is listed. I wonder where those rifles are now?

I've always said that if I was not going to live in the USA, I'd want to probably live in Switzerland. Probably in the Ticino, Italian speaking area.

I used to live in Italy while in USN but I can't remember how to speak Italian at all and my Spanish is very poor:)

La Pistoletta
July 14, 2008, 08:08 AM
IIRC they are trained on how to use the halbard

Isn't it a pike?

Dr. Peter Venkman
July 14, 2008, 08:23 AM
There would have no point in attacking the Swiss during WWII.

Capitaine Nemo
July 14, 2008, 08:45 AM
It's strange to see an article from LR.com that goes on such lengths about how Switzerland is so great compared to the US, that we have such a small army and defense budget. From a writer on a libertarian site I would have expected a condemnation of the Swiss government for its compulsory military and serious disrespect of freedoms when it comes to owning, carrying and using guns (in self-defense and sports).
Seriously, in this country every man is conscripted when he reach the age of 20. That's not something desirable in any way, even if we don't wage foreign wars and just stay in cow fields. Young men have other private business to do than wear an uniform and be shout at. I dodged the conscription and I'm very happy about it. I don't care if I'm missing something, at least I'm keeping some of my freedoms. I'm also a gun owner and I fail to see what's so great about having an ordnance rifle at home. It's not a hobby rifle, nor some weapon that you could defend yourself with. This rifle is given to you to protect the State, not you or your family. What about having the right to carry handguns, buy automatic weapons and such? That would sound better. You can do it in the US but not in Switzerland. We can't even carry a locking blade, so forget about guns. Forget about Switzerland and enjoy living in the US.

telomerase
July 14, 2008, 09:06 AM
Seriously, in this country every man is conscripted when he reach the age of 20. That's not something desirable in any way, even if we don't wage foreign wars and just stay in cow fields. Young men have other private business to do than wear an uniform and be shout at. I dodged the conscription and I'm very happy about it. I don't care if I'm missing something, at least I'm keeping some of my freedoms. I'm also a gun owner and I fail to see what's so great about having an ordnance rifle at home. It's not a hobby rifle, nor some weapon that you could defend yourself with. This rifle is given to you to protect the State, not you or your family. What about having the right to carry handguns, buy automatic weapons and such? That would sound better. You can do it in the US but not in Switzerland. We can't even carry a locking blade, so forget about guns. Forget about Switzerland and enjoy living in the US.

I agree with everything you say. However, in spite of our theoretical objections to the Swiss system, the fact remains that it is the only European nation to stay out of war for 200 years. And since it accomplished this feat by doing the OPPOSITE of what the "mainstream" press recommends, the Swiss example is a tremendous obstacle for those who advocate a disarmed citizenry and an unchecked government. (Which is why they never talk about it :D)

What we need is for a really committed Socialist to rise to power somewhere, and allow a true free-enterprise zone to exist as a "control group". Then we could test all our anarcho-capitalist theories :neener:.

Unfortunately, honest, sincere Socialists are rarer than unicorns :scrutiny:

telomerase
July 14, 2008, 09:09 AM
We can't even carry a locking blade,

When did that happen? I knew the banking privacy had gone out the window a while back due to pressure from the US, but pocketknives? Sheesh.

Anyway, thanks again to the Swiss guys for filling us in!

El Tejon
July 14, 2008, 09:33 AM
There would have no point in attacking the Swiss during WWII.

Why were plans drawn up and resources allocated for a Swiss invasion? Operation Christmas Tree?

Haben Sie dieses Buch schon? Target Switzerland: http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/target.html

XDKingslayer
July 14, 2008, 10:31 AM
And THIS statement is absolutely ridiculous:

"The huge US war machine could not even intercept civilian airliners on 9-11"

We all know that the U.S. Military could shoot down airliners all day long, if they had a reason. Who knew those jets were going to crash into buildings?

Why do people even go there?

Because they are the same idiots that say the cops should just shoot people in the legs or shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hands.

It's the same people who blissfully waste their lives away in complete ignorance on how the world, outside of them, operates.

Capitaine Nemo
July 14, 2008, 11:20 AM
When did that happen? I knew the banking privacy had gone out the window a while back due to pressure from the US, but pocketknives? Sheesh.

Anyway, thanks again to the Swiss guys for filling us in!

I'm not really aware of the law, but it seems that pocket knives with locking blades are illegal to carry. Like guns you can "transport" them but not "carry" them. You can carry a SAK but not a Buck 110.

Joe Demko
July 14, 2008, 11:35 AM
American gun owners have a habit of glorifying both Switzerland and Israel without having any real knowledge of the laws pertaining to private ownership, carry, and self-defense in either place. They see pictures of reservists carrying military weapons and make incorrect assumptions about gun laws in both places.

RE: WWII
Switzerland was more valuable as a nominally neutral country for Germany's purposes. The fact that they had drawn up invasion plans, in and of itself, in no way means they had actual intentions of invading. Militaries are constantly drawing up plans for all sorts of wars, many of which seem incredibly unlikely to occur. We, in the US, probably have plans for invading Canada and Mexico. Are we going to do so? No; but those plans are quite likely there anyway. In the decades previous to WWII, when it wasn't clear just who was going to ally with whom, we had plans for another war against Great Britain on file.

El Tejon
July 14, 2008, 11:48 AM
Germany drew up Sealion but that never came about either, but Germany intended to invade the UK.

FDR did not go on the radio and rant and rave about Canada or Mexico. Hitler did.

If the HC appeared weak, they would have been nothing but fly-over country between Germany and Vichy France.

burningsquirrels
July 14, 2008, 11:56 AM
i went to high school in switzerland. there were bomb shelters everywhere, and a public announcement system that could be heard everywhere. dunnoh about the gun thing, i wasn't into firearms at the time. but it was a very clean, organized place, and all the people had a strong sense of duty and community. i'd live there, but it'd be impossible to have my old school muscle cars with me.

Boris Barowski
July 14, 2008, 12:36 PM
yeah, I heard the swiss aren't very kind on cars. Especially the fun kind :p Is that true ? or does it depend on which kanton?

Joe Demko
July 14, 2008, 12:39 PM
Hitler ranted and raved about lots of things. Switzerland was far more valuable as a "neutral" trading partner than it would have been as one more resource-poor and uncooperative conquered territory and Hitler knew that. Critical raw materials, such as tungsten, were funneled into Germany by using the "neutral" Swiss as an intermediary trading partner. Allied aircrew who crashed in Switzerland were interned, as were escapees from German prison camps. Axis personnel were returned to their home countries. No doubt, if Hitler had successfully concluded his war against the Soviet Union and the Brits had collapsed, he would have eventually turned his attention to Switzerland and the other neutral European countries. That all falls squarely into the realm of Alternate History, though. During the real WWII, he had no reason or imminent plans for invading a country as valuable to him as Switzerland with its neutral status.

Here's an interesting article. (http://www.jcpa.org/cjc/jl-377-silberman.htm)

ServiceSoon
July 14, 2008, 12:51 PM
There was no SOP to shoot down civilian aircraft at the hour of the morning when the crashes were occurring. Not exaclty true. NORAD had drills as planes being used as weapons. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-04-18-norad_x.htm)

ServiceSoon
July 14, 2008, 12:53 PM
What? What kind of country expects its citizens to defend it. That's so wrong, dude. It's not kewl.You are an advocate of Military Slavery?

burningsquirrels
July 14, 2008, 01:53 PM
yeah, I heard the swiss aren't very kind on cars. Especially the fun kind Is that true ? or does it depend on which kanton?

very strict when it comes to driving laws and regulations and such. but, it does contribute to the overall organization and cleanliness of the place.

Shung
July 14, 2008, 02:42 PM
Seriously, in this country every man is conscripted when he reach the age of 20. That's not something desirable in any way, even if we don't wage foreign wars and just stay in cow fields. Young men have other private business to do than wear an uniform and be shout at. I dodged the conscription and I'm very happy about it. I don't care if I'm missing something, at least I'm keeping some of my freedoms.

I respect your choice, but you have a very narrow view of the life in the army as a conscripted men.

I have fun, and what I do around fighter jets in quite interesting. Im not shout at (exept at recruit school, but that is part of the game..) ..

Your freedoms, like the right to keep firearms (you seem to enjoy that one), is ALSO guaranteed by the fact that WE (the one who dident dodged the conscription) have to keep a SIG550 at home, and having such a weapon given by the government, the same government cannot tell me that I canot have firearms on my own.. and you get the same right...

You live in a country, are part of it. You have rights, but not only. everything has its counterpart.

Shung
July 14, 2008, 02:46 PM
buy automatic weapons and such?

you can do so.

just go mthe official way.


On the carry point I agree with you. We should be allowed to pass a carry permit. Not only if we are threathened first.

Moonclip
July 14, 2008, 09:13 PM
It is a halbard carried by the Swiss Guard, I looked it up and you have to be over 5'-9", not 6'. For the Swiss citizen that dodged his national service, I can't believe you would be proud of that, I have no respect for someone that would not willingly serve to defend his homeland.

The book Target Switzerland is an excellent read, Germany conquering Switzerland was a real possibility and they would have loved to have done it if it was practical to do so.

And yes many USA residents think Switzerland and especially Israel are some sort of private gun ownership paradises, I can assure you Israel is not.

Switzerland is very nice though in many ways besides the gun laws there. I do believe it is a direct democracy which I like, don't you guys vote like 6 or more times a year? I also like how weapons are traditionally brought to the voting area by the voters.

Another thing that would shock USA citizens is that alcohol being served at shooting ranges is much more comon there I believe.

burningsquirrels
July 14, 2008, 09:20 PM
probably because they have more restraint and self control. (only in general. sorry, but it sure seemed that way when i lived there.)

Robert Hairless
July 14, 2008, 11:23 PM
You are an advocate of Military Slavery?

Heavens no! It's so much more cool to either surrender or pay someone else to do the fighting. Paying someone else is better because then we can like do protest marches when they get like hurt man. If it's not raining, or American idol isn't on, or there's not anything better to do.

I wouldn't think of suggesting that anyone has any duties or obligations to anything outside himself or herself as the case might be. That would be just wrong.

I'm against Military Slavery, School Slavery, and Wage Slavery. I won't fight, won't learn, and won't work, and I'm darned proud of it too. I have rights!

As our Swiss correspondent said, "Young men have other private business to do than wear an uniform and be shout at." There's partying, hanging out, and hooking up, for example. Life is about enjoyment. The other stuff is yucky, especially when people shout at you. They need to chill.

CrawdaddyJim
July 14, 2008, 11:45 PM
American Sarcasm on a European thread is not funny Robert. Go to your room mister.....:D

Shung
July 15, 2008, 03:59 AM
I do believe it is a direct democracy which I like, don't you guys vote like 6 or more times a year? I also like how weapons are traditionally brought to the voting area by the voters.

It is a deirect democracy, and yes we vote many times a year (look for my 1st thread in THR, I explained all of that more precisely). however it's a long time we dont take our weapons to vote.. I guess that I could do it peacefully next time however, to show my disaprouval of the new gun law..

Another thing that would shock USA citizens is that alcohol being served at shooting ranges is much more comon there I believe.

a glass of white one prior or after shooting never killed anyone :) and made some old timers less shivering for shooting activities (we have guys over 80 still shooting ..)

"Young men have other private business to do than wear an uniform and be shout at." There's partying, hanging out, and hooking up, for example.

2 nights a week when you are serving ! ;)

(this time I got the irony of it ;) )

Moonclip
July 15, 2008, 05:56 AM
No a glass of wine never hurt anything but most USA shooters are not accustomed to that. I know of one or two ranges though here that do serve alcohol.

As for national service, I had an Israeli friend who lied and played many games to get out of military service. We were good friend but I used to tell her how I lost respect for her doing this.

Her sister served in a combat unit though.

Thats too bad that weapons are no longer brought when going to vote, is this all over Switzerland or just in certain areas? When did thkis tradition fade away?

Shung
July 15, 2008, 07:22 AM
Thats too bad that weapons are no longer brought when going to vote, is this all over Switzerland or just in certain areas? When did thkis tradition fade away?

It was mainly in "landsgemeinde", were traditionnally people in villages voted on pubilc places, openely, rising their hands. This happends in central Switzerland Kantons, and Appenzells for example. But in large cities (for our country I mean.. Geneva is something like 500 000 people and considered a large citiy) it's a long time that it doesnt happend. Eventually you can bring you bayonnet to the vote. It would be a symbol strong enough !

just for example, among the subjects of our next vote, it will be asked us all our opinion about the buildings of Minarets in Switzerland.

They believe (the guys who collected the 100 000 signatures requested to start a national vote, and I think it as well) that we have nothing against Mosque, since we have Swiss that are actually muslims, but since we forbid the muezin call (the guy praying loud from the top of the minaret, 5 times a day) like we forbid the church to ring bells too often, no to disturb people, we think that Minarets will be useless and a too strong sign of islamisation of our country (which is Christian by history and culture (both catholic and protestant)).

Such a vote was requested because our government authorized the building of a minaret somewhere in Switzerland, and we, part of the citizens, disagreed with that decision.

To win the vote, we will have to win the double majoritiy. Wich means majority of people, and majority of Kantons (like your states. we have 23 Kantons), saying NO to the building of minarets.

But we vote on many subjects. Recently in my kanton (Geneva) we voted for banning the tobacco from public places such as bars, nightclubs etc ... I voted against that banning , even if I don't smoke and don't like smoking, but to preserve everyone right to rule a Smocking nighclub, for example. In this case "we" lost, and smocking in such places is now banned in Geneva.

We even voted on dangerous dogs (pittbuls, Rottweilers etc etc) .. again I voted NO, because I didnt want honest citizen owning well leashed dogs to be punished for that stupidity of a minority of stupid dog owners... but again, we lost, and they are now a lots of restrictions about those species of dogs.

The dangers of the direct democracy, is that MANY people are SHEEPS and vote just listening medias and other propaganda.

beaucoup ammo
July 15, 2008, 09:47 AM
Our youngest daughter has lived in Zurich for 5 years. We've visited her numerous times and I gotta tell you, it's a shooter's paradise! You've heard of "pick up" basket ball games?" Try the same for target shooting. It's heaven.

I've been there, participated, and if you get the chance by all means go. It helps to know someone, and by all means be respectful. Then, the doors open and the fun begins!

32winspl
July 15, 2008, 10:06 AM
I'm really impressed and humbled by Shung, his Swiss countrymen, and the Finnish gentleman's useage of English. From way back in high school, I can barely remember a tiny bit of German, and string a few cuss-words together in Finnish (The Finns being well-represented in the UP of Michigan where I was born).
Thanks guys for broadening our horizons.

beaucoup ammo
July 15, 2008, 10:16 AM
Shung, thank you for your insightful posts! Our daughter mentioned the vote you brought up. Is there a large influx of Eastern Europeans trying to enter your country? I join 32winspl in complementing you on your command of the English language and general knowledge!

VonClausewitz
July 15, 2008, 12:45 PM
The Swiss firearm liberties are under siege. As in all countries where there is a legal possibility for citizens to procure firearms, the gun grabbers are not far behind. Since our last law revision of 1999, there have been numerous attempts to promote tiptoe disarmament of the public. Bullet points of proposed legislation:

1. All personal service weapons (SIG 550 or SIG P220) should be surrendered and stored within the army logistic bases. As with most of such proposals, the practicality is questionalble, the additional costs horrendous.

2. Upon discharge from armed services, soldiers and officers schould no longer be allowed to take their personal weapons into their private property. It seems quite allright to order citizen soldiers to stand guard at the World Economic Forum in Davos as armed agents of the state, but god forbid them from keeping their stuff when the show is over.

3. Up until now, citizens have the right to buy guns unless they have a serious criminal record or mental health problems. Advocates of gun control propose a general prohibition, with the lawmakers granting temporary ownership privilege to citizens who can prove a "valid reason" to do so. I wonder if home defense will count? What about the constitutional guarantee of property?

4. A federal database of all civilian gun ownership. Does not prevent any crime, but sure makes later confiscation a lot easier.

Note that the usual coalition of suspects (socialists, greens, feminists,...) tried to use the "crime prevention" and public safety argument in the past. It did not fly in Switzerland. Now the focus lies on suicide prevention and socalled "UN compliance". You cant loose votes you never had.

Nanny state, here we come.

Shung
July 15, 2008, 04:06 PM
Great post VonClausevitz. I couldnt explain it better !

but here we keep on fighting those liberty diggers ! Help us !

Is there a large influx of Eastern Europeans trying to enter your country?

thy are already here, mainly from the Balkan, prior and after the war. part of them want those minarets (because they are bosniac, and therefore muslims)

Shung
July 15, 2008, 05:52 PM
1 000 000 $$$$

http://www.bundesbrief.org/what.html

Shung
July 15, 2008, 08:28 PM
Since I retrieved that picture for another thread, here is me and some friends at my "recruit school" (kinda our "boot camp" ) ...

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/11/94/71/06/recsch10.jpg

Dont worry. Some have fingers on the triggers, but it is on purpose. weapon were "neutralized" prior to a combat exercize, and that is why you see a white rubber band over the magazines.

The "band of brothers" style was on purpose :evil:

Moonclip
July 16, 2008, 06:24 AM
The SIG 550 is among the best guns in the world I feel. I'd give anything to own a 551. I have to make do with a pair of Schmidt Rubin K31's. Swiss guns being expensive and all!

A friend of mine recently got a Swiss clone of the CZ75 used for $150usd though!!!

Good luck with the minaret vote. Too bad with the pitbulls and smoking, I enjoy both somewhat!

Shung
July 16, 2008, 07:08 AM
The 75 clone is a Sphinx ?

Maybe I could go for a 553 , but definately, the 550 is a too heavy weapon for it's purpose (in term of pure weight, not power, of course)

Moonclip
July 16, 2008, 07:18 AM
I think it was a gun imported in to the USA by action arms as the AT84 or AT88. I am familiar with the Sphinx, expensive! I would not mind owning a STG57 also. I have the bayonet for it. K31 bayonets are expensive in the USA, close to $100usd.

For some reason, STG57 bayonets are not, I got mine last year for $15.

Shung
July 16, 2008, 07:27 AM
K31 bayonets are expensive in the USA, close to $100usd.

here I can have them for half the price, so yours is fair considering the export.

Often you can even find the K31 plus its bayonnet on same numbers.

For some reason, STG57 bayonets are not, I got mine last year for $15.

yes. at last Lausanne gunshow I bought 5 of them, 5$ each. there are tons of them around !

as for the STG57, you can buy them for 400 to 600 $ here.

I guess importing one for you is impossible ?

anyway, its a damn precise rifle.. but heck. you dont wan't to walk with that neither.. it weights more than my car...

Moonclip
July 16, 2008, 07:38 AM
Yes the semi auto versions of the SIG 550 and the STG 57 are very expensive here. We really can't import one here either due to our laws if they were once full auto.

The semi auto versions were only imported in small numbers and can no longer be imported either due to our laws again. I wonder what SIG 550 bayonets sell for?

I don't own a K31 bayonet as they cost as much as I paid for the rifles! K11's are more expensive and rarer here also.

I'd really like to have one of the home kept sealed cans of 5.56 or 7.5 or 9x19 ammuntion but they are rare and expensive here also.

A local gunshop has one of those older Swiss military revolvers for sale also with a box of ammuntion from the 1960's with writing on it in French,Italian, and German.

They want $850usd for it!

Shung
July 16, 2008, 07:47 AM
a Fass90 (SiG550) bayonet must be like 70$ I guess.

If you want I can look for a K31 bayonet for you ! maybe I can find some at faire prices.

I guess it could be send to you by post, right ? no importation laws about it ?

as for the the Swiss revolver, a friend of mine as a couple of them. once we fired 90years old cartridges ! but most of the time we reload them using black powder, as the original. That piece of revolver is a masterpiece.. Much more like a clock than a gun..!

sanglant
July 16, 2008, 11:39 AM
I have a really fancy Swiss watch that started acting up a month ago. It ticks five seconds at a time now instead of one at a time. Interestingly enough, it's still spot on. sounds like its time for a new battery(if it uses one) ;)

VonClausewitz
July 16, 2008, 06:57 PM
If you like swiss guns and can get hold of a good K31, invest some more for a scope mount and good optics (Leupold, Schmidt & Bender,...).

This way you end up with a formidable competition weapon that rivals the precision of much more expensive models at a fraction of the cost.

The main drawback would be the expensive caliber 7.5 Swiss, offered by Norma and Munitionswerke Thun (RUAG). Calculate 2$ per shot. This does not bother me much as I dont go gattling with with pinpoint guns.

If you, however, plan to produce a lot of brass, go for something in .308 instead.

Regards

Moonclip
July 17, 2008, 05:23 AM
Thanks for the bayonet offer but I'm very poor right now and shipping price would be expensive, I may take you up on your kind offer one day though!

I plan I maybe spending my limited money on a used Ruger Redhawk .44mag at $260usd tomorrow if I'm lucky and the deal goes thru.

Anyways back on topic, aren't many types on hollowpoint ammunition now banned in Switzerland?

And how much would guns such as that Swiss revolver and the K31 and K11 go for over there?

Shung
July 17, 2008, 05:38 AM
Anyways back on topic, aren't many types on hollowpoint ammunition now banned in Switzerland?

Yes they ALL are.. no deformative projectile are allowed.. It was even the case of the LEO until someone innoncent got killed by surpenetration. Now the police use a projectile that is called QD-1 or something similar. It is a controlled expansion bullet, which is a MUST have since we mainly use 9mm here.

Since it is forbidden I must tell you that I dont have such ammo at home...

But be sure that I wouldnt be shooting FMJ at a bad guy in my home...

K31 and K11 (without diopter) cost from 80 to 200 $ depending on how tight is the barrel, and how good the conditions are. (add 300$ if you want the official diopter)

here you have an idea of the rifle prices

http://www.waffenboerse.ch/csc_articles.php?VID=SAxfgtWpTsIdkRTn&saSearch[special]=boerse&saSearch[category]=sport-ordonnanz

1 chf = 1$ nowadays

the revolvers 1882-1929 are more expensive. But if I remind well, they are around 500-600 chf.. (=$)

i gotta go. I'll make a more complete answer later.

Moonclip
July 17, 2008, 05:56 AM
Shung, interesting link, I looked at a lot of it. SIG P210's are much more reasonably priced than here. Some of the German guns ok also. USA guns expensive! A pair of Hogue rubber grips was $55usd!?

Those are about half that here. And hollowpoint ammo is illegal for hunting even?

Also does anyone you know ever take home their duty P220 9mm pistol when they were done with military service? What is it called, the P75 by the military? Has Swiss markings on top of the slide?

Who in the military is issued pistols these days? Is'nt it postal personnel and officers?

Shung
July 17, 2008, 07:29 AM
And hollowpoint ammo is illegal for hunting even? Yes they are allowed, but in Switzerland you cannot hunt with handguns.. so you wont find any handgun hollowpoints ammo.. (unless you know where to look for.. ;) )

Sure, we pay a lot for accessories, like grips, optics, mounts etc... our gunshops are getting fat on it..

Also does anyone you know ever take home their duty P220 9mm pistol when they were done with military service? What is it called, the P75 by the military? Has Swiss markings on top of the slide?

I know lots of them. Actually most of them do, since you only have to pay soomething like 50$ to make it yours when you are done with the military.
Same goes for the SIG550 and for the STG57.. you pay something like 100$, just to have the fun switch neutralized to SEMI AUTO only.. And the rifle is yours. (the P220 has the Swiss markings, yes)

Who in the military is issued pistols these days? Is'nt it postal personnel and officers?

Officers, right, and also special untis like medics etc etc.

a military P210 here, is about 1200$ average.. more or less, depending the quality.

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