[Blain]

What is going on with Randy Weaver? Does he actually believe this stuff? Has anyone listened to him, or even talked with him? Is this a fraud, or was he actually saying such things? I am interested to hear all about it.

Mike Clark mclark@rexelusa.com wrote:

Randy Weaver of RUBY RIDGE IDAHO fame was on American Voices Shortwave 6.950 Shortwave Sunday night. Randy stated that his WIFE VICKIE had been shot RIGHT BETWEEN THE EYES by FBI ASSASSIN LON HORIUCHI at their home in Idaho.. Well, I think everybody knows about that. Weaver stated that ALL OF VICKIE WEAVER’S FINGERS were CUT OFF OF HER HANDS WITH A BOLT CUTTER by FBI ASSASSINS who HAVE SINCE TURNED VICKIE’S FINGERS INTO KEY CHAINS and NECKLACES. I presume they TOOK HER THUMBS ALSO. I dont KNOW ANATOMICALLY SPEAKING that if A THUMB IS CATEGORIZED AS A FINGER OR NOT. BY the way, DAVID KORESH’S SKULL is now the PAPER WEIGHT for THE CHIEF BATF OFFICERS DESK. RANDY WEAVER made this incredible statement. Let me see if I can rephrase it correctly. Mr. WEAVER stated that these FBI ASSASINS and FEDERAL MARSHALLS are not HUMAN BEINGS AT ALL. But are in FACT ALIENS. The TALK SHOW HOST didnt ASK MR. WEAVER what he meant by that statement. So I guess the actual meaning of the statement WILL HAVE TO REMAIN RHETORICAL.

[rock jock]

This guy was a looney long before Ruby Ridge. No reason to think that has changed.

[hammer4nc]

This information has no value because because its not sworn testimony, subect to cross examination. ;)

[Blain]

Really? What was he like before Ruby Ridge and why?

[4v50 Gary]

Civil liability. You know how much the gubmint would be paying if the FBI dudes were running around with Vicki Weaver's fingers on a necklace? Randy Weaver's daughters would each collect another million, perhaps a million per finger. As for Koresh's Skull being a paperweight, I doubt that too. Weaver has every right to be pissed, but when stories are outlandish, you've got to wonder about the credibility.

[Duncan Idaho]

Really? What was he like before Ruby Ridge and why?He was a fruitcake racist extremist. His wife was even fruitier by a factor of 2 or 3.

Why? Who knows? My guess would be defective brain tissue.

The good news is that they both moved out into the middle of nowhere, and were a danger to absolutely no one.

The bad news is that JBTs went out to try to scare them into ratting out other (potentially dangerous) racist fruitloops.

The worst news is that scumbags like Lon Horiuchi got away with murder before all was said and done.

[0007]

So somebody who wants to live by themselves is automatically a looney and a racist? Weaver was a separatist not a racist. He would not go along with the fibbies :scrutiny: when they asked him to spy on the aryan brotherhood group that was located in the area he chose to live in. So these same agencies sent an agent who finally managed to get him to saw a few inches off the end of a shotgun. And things went downhill from there. The key here is to remember that even paraniods have real enemies - and in Weaver's case they proved that he did. :banghead:

[coldshot03/04]

Shortwave Radio has some WILD stuff on there.:eek:

[gunsmith]

Hmmm, at least that would explain why they
had to shoot the dog,as we know from sci fi movies,
dogs know who is human who is not!
Man that pissed me off,shooting the boys dog!
It was a mean nasty thing to do.
Weavers son was walking the dog on his dads
property a gazillion miles from anyone
and they shoot his dog!
Plain nasty jerks...or Aliens!
who knows...

[buzz_knox]

This information has no value because because its not sworn testimony, subect to cross examination.

You forgot that it can also have value if contained in a gov't report analyzing alleged "mistakes" made by a gov't agency, but only if said agency/branch is the one doing the report.

[brownie0486]

Blain,

You actually had to ask if they were walking around with fingers on necklaces?

Please----------------

Brownie

[Tamara]

FWIW, Blain, they're not aliens, either. ;)

Weaver has always been a loonie. He lived in a plywood and tarpaper shack in the woods, and had a separate shed on the property for the womenfolk to stay in during that time of the month. He probably thought aliens were conspiring with mud people in the Zionist occupation government to institute the new world order.

You know what? None of that is against the law, especially if you want to go do it miles from nowhere. In case the history textbooks don't mention it anymore, remember that America was crawling with heavily-armed racist, sexist, compound-dwelling religious lunatics back in the 17th century. We call them "Pilgrims" now. ;)

[Don Gwinn]

There's no difference between a "separatist" and a "racist" in Weaver's case. He was a separatist because he was a racist. He believed in Christian Identity, more or less, which means he thought northern European white folks were the original tribes of Israel and everyone else was a mud person.

He lived in that shack in the woods because he was certain the world was ending--several times. Each time it didn't end, he and Vickie studied the matter and revised the date a few years. They were sure a massive highway was being built from Canada into the U.S. to carry an invasion from Canada.

On the other hand, if you were already a little paranoid and then the government did in fact murder your child and your wife, then lay siege to the rest of your family, over a five-dollar tax issue . . . . . well, is it any wonder he got even more paranoid? Who wouldn't?

[buzz_knox]

There's no difference between a "separatist" and a "racist" in Weaver's case. He was a separatist because he was a racist.

If there's got to be racists, then the separatist racists are the best kind. I fully support their right to live by themselves and not causing trouble.

Now, if we could only get Jesse Jackson, Farrakhan, and the rest of the racists to find plots of their own.

[Newton]

I wish I could make my wife live in a separate shack during "that time of the month" ;)

On a more serious note, what happened to Randy Weaver and his family, crazy or not, was state sanctioned murder, and it will doubtless happen again.

The guy was on a secluded ridge line, with his young family. How could the guy in charge come away with a dead unarmed mother, a man shot in his back who was not an immediate threat to anyone, and not face severe consequences for his actions. Contain and defuse, what would have been so difficult about that ? It is difficult, even during the most rational analysis of what happened, to conclude that there was not an open desire to kill the adults on that ridge, regardless of circumstance.

I think there is a fear in government that if you are hard on the actions of the police or federal authorities, then they may begin to lose their commitment to their work, suffer staffing problems, and generally fall apart. I have seen this attitude, especially in the courts in other countries, and I find it to be a very dangerous attitude for any system to adopt.

[Art Eatman]

blain, I concluded long ago that Weaver wasn't the brightest star in the heavens. I watched the hearings, of course...But one can't be very smart if he lets himself be persuaded to chop a shotgun barrel. After all, the hardware stores are full of hacksaws. A half-bright guy would ask, "Why me?"

Okay. Here's a guy with over $3 mil tax-free, and the idol of a bunch of lunatics. They're gonna be all over him like stink on whatzit, telling him what he wants to hear, and pushing their own idiocies.

Sorta like high-paid sports stars and movie folks, who ain't all that bright, either.

When you run across this sort of weird stuff, just treat it like "Cactus Jack" Garner's view of being Vice-President: "It ain't worth a bucket of warm spit."

:), Art

[Duncan Idaho]

So somebody who wants to live by themselves is automatically a looney and a racist?Bzzzzzzzt...non sequitur.

Thanks for playing. There are no parting gifts. Sorry. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :barf:

[Wildalaska]

Hey didnt some US marshall die in this incident...a guy just doing his job, wife and kids..

Heck with all the talk about Randy Weaver I plumb forgot..

WildwheresmyalienreppellentAlaska

[seeker_two]

Hey didnt some US marshall die in this incident...a guy just doing his job, wife and kids..

Same could be said for Goebbles, Heydrich, and the SS Troops.... :scrutiny:

[TallPine]

Hey didnt some US marshall die in this incident

No, "he" was just a computer simulation.

He (it) will be back at the next shootout :D


TallseeIactuallyhaveseenacouplemoviesinthelast20yearsPine

[cordex]

Hey didnt some US marshall die in this incident.
Was that before or after a little boy was shot in the back? I keep forgetting and accounts vary...

In Weaver's book, he says something along the lines of "hating people who have never done anything to you just because their skin color is different is ignorant." Perhaps someone with a copy nearby would like to look it up? Maybe that's just something an editor spliced in to make him seem a little less of a maniac... I don't know. Or care.

He's not the kind of guy I'd like to spend time around, but also not evil enough for me to want to hire a bunch of armed men to shoot at.

-Corafedslifeismoreimportantthanamerecitizensyouknowdex

edited because I stutttered.

[willyjixx]

guy had his family wasted an his dog shot over a 1/2 inch of tubing.

hes flipped out an lost it! straight jacket canidate if you ask me.

wow so if i wanna move to the far reagions of america to escape idiot im a racist seperatist?

hey the buss leaves at 1300. be on it with your gear

[Carlos Cabeza]

You know, I never could figure out why Weaver would have stooped so low as to cut the barrel of a shotgun for ANYONE. The action would take all of 30 seconds and a few swipes with a file. Its not like you need a precision cut crown on a shotgun. :rolleyes: What, are the guys asking him to do the cutting COMPLETE INCOMPETENT BOOBS ! ????:scrutiny:

That would have been MY first clue. :rolleyes:

I'm not sayin' Weaver was very bright. And he did choose the company he kept.

[buzz_knox]

Hey didnt some US marshall die in this incident...a guy just doing his job, wife and kids..

Yes, the same marshall who shot the boy in the back.

[brownie0486]

I didn't know it had been determined that Deagan shot the kid, where did you get that factoid?

Did they do a bullet analysis comparison from his gun?

Brownie

[madkiwi]

I think you guys have the story a little wrong.

I was under the impression that Randy was charged with violating the NFA- but not by shortening the barrels. Everyone and their mother, including non-firearms types, knows that short barreled shotguns are illegal, so did Randy. He did not shorten the barrel under the minimum. He was asked to shorten the stock (length of pull adjustment) which he did. He didn't realize that by doing so he made the total shotgun length less than the federal minimum length (which I think is 26" IIRC).

It was a pure setup- he was presented with a firearm that was barely long enough to begin with and asked to shorten the shoulder stock.

As to why he did it? If being ignorant but accomodating makes him a criminal, well, you could probably entrap more than a few hillbillies that way.

madkiwi

[buzz_knox]

My understanding of the deputy's testimony is that Deagan had an M16, and the deputy with him had a suppressed MP-5, and Deagan shot the kid in the back with a 5.56/223 round as he was heading towards the house. The feds initially claimed that Weaver shot his own son, but the round didn't match the Mini-14 Weaver was using.

[Atticus]

"There's no difference between a "separatist" and a "racist" in Weaver's case. He was a separatist because he was a racist."

Couldn't the same be said about many of the people who choose to live on the South side of Chicago - Watts - East St.Louis? A preferrence to be "left alone" and/or to live with your own kind, may sound un-pc, or even racist, but it is the preference of milllions and is not a crime. Except for Weaver that is. I met him last year. I know you can't judge a book by it's cover, but he seemed like a pretty decent guy to me. And from what I've read about Ruby Rudge, nearly every court in the land sided with the Weavers.

[cordex]

On the shooting of Sammy Weaver ...
The gov't report says:
(2) Physical Evidence

An inventory of the marshals' ammunition taken on the early morning of August 22 showed that Hunt, Norris, and Thomas did not fire their weapons during the incident. Roderick fired one shot from an M16 rifle. Cooper fired six shots form the .9mm weapon. Degan's weapon had been fired seven times.[FN427] This appears to be inconsistent with Harris' claim that there was an "explosion of gunfire" from the marshals.[FN428] We believe that the marshals exercised restraint as to the number of shots discharged by the Weavers and Harris.[FN429]

Sammy Weaver was struck twice in the exchange of gunfire. One round hit him in the right arm, near the elbow, traveling from front to back. This bullet also shattered the stock of his rifle. The second and fatal shot hit the boy in the back and passed through his body, exiting after a slight track from left to right.[FN430]
c. The Shooting of Sammy Weaver

Dr. Charles R. Lindholm, who performed the autopsy on Sammy Weaver, could not offer an opinion on the type of bullet which wounded Sammy's arm. Dr. Lindholm reported that the fatal back/chest wound was "indicative of a low velocity round." he did not believe that it was caused by a .223 caliber bullet and thought that the wound "would be more consistent with that of a 9 millimeter round."[FN432]

Dr. Martin L. Fackler testified at trial for the prosecution as an expert in "wound ballistics." Dr. Fackler concluded that the fatal wound was caused by a .9mm bullet.[FN433] Dr. Fackler believed the bullet that caused the fatal wound was similar to the silver tipped bullets used in Cooper's weapon.[FN434]

Two .9mm firearms were at or near the "Y": Randy Weaver had a .9mm pistol; Cooper had been assigned a .9mm "suppressed" semi-automatic weapon. Weaver claims to have fired his weapon three or four times;[FN435] Cooper's was fired six times. Harris reported that he heard the shot that killed Sammy.[FN436]

Degan's M16 rifle fires a .223 caliber round. None of the marshals saw Degan discharge his weapon, though his gun was fired seven times. Cooper said that he did not fire Degan's weapon after he retrieved it.[FN437] Dr. Fackler testified that Degan could have fired his weapon after he had been shot in the chest by Harris, although his accuracy would have been impaired.[FN438] However, Fackler did not believe that Degan's M16 caused the fatal injury, but thought it was possible that the weapon could have caused the wound to Sammy's arm. [FN439]

Cooper and Roderick last saw Sammy run out of view up the trail. The location where Harris found Sammy's body is unknown because the Weavers moved the body.

Although it is not our intention to speculate, the evidence, though not conclusive, certainly suggests that the shot that killed Sammy came from Cooper's .9mm weapon. We have found no evidence that Cooper, or any of the marshals, intentionally sought to kill or injure Sammy Weaver.

Cooper said that he purposely fired three shots at Harris, after Harris shot Degan and appeared to be preparing to fire at Degan again. Cooper was convinced that he wounded or killed Harris, who dropped to the ground "like a sack of potatoes."[FN440] Actually, Cooper missed Harris, who disappeared out of view into the woods along the trail. Cooper then wheeled his weapon toward Sammy and took aim, but did not fire.[FN441] Cooper next fired a second three round burst, in the direction from which he had received fire, as cover in an effort to reach Degan. He said this burst was not directed at a specific target. It is possible that Sammy may have been mortally wounded at that time.

Sammy Weaver was shot during a firefight in which he was a participant. There is no proof, and we do not conclude, that Cooper intentionally aimed the fatal shot at Sammy Weaver. Indeed, the record demonstrates that the marshals went to great lengths in preparing for their mission to avoid endangering the Weaver children.

Perhaps it is nothing more than coincidence, but it sure seems that in this particular event, there was some pretty poor aimed fire on the part of some highly trained federal agents, and some oustandingly accurate "cover fire" and misses by the same guys. Just a thought.

[Mike Irwin]

"He was a fruitcake racist extremist."

I'm not really sure that's accurate.

Racist, yes, probably.

Fruitcake? Who knows.

Extremist? I don't think that is applicable. Weaver was an avowed sepratist, believing that the races should live apart. There are blacks who are preaching the same mantra.

I don't believe that Weaver was associated with any of the groups or organizations that truly were extremist, those that promoted violence against other races for the protection of the White race.

[JohnBT]

"Dr. Fackler concluded that the fatal wound was caused by a .9mm bullet."

Anybody else seen one of those 9/10th mm bullets?

John

[willyjixx]

got a link to where you found that? thats interesting!

i myself even if i wanted it done would rather have a gunsmith trim down a barrell than do it myself. why? sure i could hack saw it.........key word HACK!

id rather have a pro do it or at least a smith who will do it properly an recut choke threads or any other thing that would need to be done. (retap a front site)

was Weaver a gun smith? even just a kitchen table one?
and how did the FBI know that? to many questions unanswered

[BTR]

He cut the barrel down considerably of a couple of shotguns (I don't remember the lenght- maybe to about 10-12 inches) and sold them to an informant who represented himself as a gun dealer to motorcycle gangs. He did not just cut down the stock, nor did he cut them to 17 or so inches. He thought evil Jews controlled the government (the "Zionist Occupation Government" or something similar). The poor guy is indeed a fruitcake.

[Intune]

psst... it was the sniper-cat in the window not the feds who gunned that boy down... don't tell anyone but i've SEEN them in pictures.


for 87226.58 The green marble is clear. I repeat, the green marble is clear. ...---..., ...---...





:rolleyes: :scrutiny:

[Orthonym]

Weaver was suspected of being connected to the Aryan Nation . The Aryan Brotherhood is slightly different, being a prison gang for(ostensibly, and I mostly believe it) mutual defense of white guys against being sodomized by big black guys. Or so Ken Hamblin has it.

[joshlm]

i would like to know from those people calling him a racist what guidlines are used to determine this. and also what bearring that would have on the insident in question. I believe, that as long as sepratist or anyone else for that matter is not breaking the law they have a right in our free country to say whatever they want and express any political views they might have. No one has to agree with them but they have just as much a right as the rest of us. perhapes instead of calling people names that have differing views than our own we should listen to them and then make an informed decision. perhapes if all races would take some pride in them selves and quite trying to force intigration on everyone we as people could live peacefully in the same country. it is time that everyone in this country take some responsibility for there own actions regardless of their race, age, sex, or any other of the excuses we as a society have started to use for people whom seem to believe that society, for some reasone owes them something. that they should be excused from their actions, or lack their of because, of past wrongs that were inflicted on them. this is a american problem and is widespread in all races in this country.

[LoneStranger]

Just to contribute more to this interesting conversation. I asked Randy Weaver why he did not just hand the hacksaw to the informant and tell him to saw away. His reply was that the informant was a total screwup who would have probably sawn his own fingers off. (Actually that is not a correct qoute as the language used would result in the elimination of my posting priveleges.)

I was under the misconception(?) that while the FBI could not prove who had shoot Sammy Weaver, lack of bullets you know, the same could also be said for Marshall Degan.

Yes, I understand that the Marshalls swore that Harris did it but they could not provide unassailabe evidence for their story.

Also note that Gary Spence pointed out in his book that a very good case could be made for Marshall Degan going down due to friendly fire from the Marshall behind him.

What is the truth? Damfino! But you would think that agents who are trained and practiced would not allow themselves to be put in this position.

[brownie0486]

Putting yourself in a position to take one from friendly fire happens quite often in the military under combat conditions as well.

Particularly so for those who have the training and not much practical experience under fire.

It's a fact of life that all the training pretty much goes out the window the first couple of times you are looking into the face of the enemy under fire.

Brownie

[TallPine]

But you would think that agents who are trained and practiced would not allow themselves to be put in this position.

Like maybe they could have just waited until he went to town sometime ...?

:rolleyes:

[Quartus]

That would have taken all the FUN out of it, Tallpine!


Waco, too.

[CWL]

What I've always wondered about R. Weaver is that he was a former Vietnam-era Green Beret. Wasn't he carefully screened since he has a very extreme view of the world and the place of pureblood whites v. the rest of the world? Kinda seems outta place to work with indigenies -or did he just want to kill communists?

Also his former CO Bo Gritz (who had been an Operator most of his life and speaks Chinese and Swahili) also shares many of Randy's views. He molded the minds of generations of Operators.

Special Forces motto: "De Oppresso Liber" (To Free the Oppressed). Kinda goes against their views don't it?

(Just because I despise what our government did to him and his family doesn't mean that I can't also despise Randy Weaver himself.)

[Tamara]

Interestingly, the Feds initially claimed that Harris had accidentally shot Sammy Weaver.

They retracted the point when it was pointed out that Harris had none of Sherriff Ricochet Rabbit's U-Turn bullets in his magazine. ;)

I believe, that as long as sepratist or anyone else for that matter is not breaking the law they have a right in our free country to say whatever they want and express any political views they might have. No one has to agree with them but they have just as much a right as the rest of us.

I could swear I said that in my post.

Like a friend once said: "Since when is living in the boonies and not liking folks that don't look like you a federal crime?" :confused:

[Orthonym]

A race is a big extended family which is more or less inbred. Mr. Sailer has a very interesting site at www.isteve.com.

Do people vary individually? Yes.

Do groups of people vary from other groups of people statistically? Yes.

Are the above grounds for murdering people, or even being rude to them?

NO!

[12-34hom]

Randy Weaver is and always will be a gutless punk and coward.

On the bright side, he could also be considered the" Dairy Queen Outlaw " of white supremists.

But alas, there are those that will always carry the torch for poor Randy.... sniffle.

They are just as pathetic as he is.

12-34hom.

[Duncan Idaho]

wow so if i wanna move to the far reagions of america to escape idiot im a racist seperatist?Look up non sequitur right after you learn what the shift key is for. :rolleyes:

[Duncan Idaho]

Extremist? I don't think that is applicable. Weaver was an avowed sepratist, believing that the races should live apart. And to his eternal credit he chose to live apart from practically everyone on the planet. I think he should be free to do so.

But I do think that people that choose to/not to associate with fellow human beings based solely on skin pigment are extremist fruitcake racists. There are blacks who are preaching the same mantra.Cheap thrill.Fruitcake? Who knows. You're welcome to disagree, I think that people that hold beliefs like his are fruitcakes.I don't believe that Weaver was associated with any of the groups or organizations that truly were extremist, those that promoted violence against other races for the protection of the White race.Find one place where I said he did.

[Tamara]

Randy Weaver is and always will be a gutless punk and coward.

...

But alas, there are those that will always carry the torch for poor Randy.... sniffle.

They are just as pathetic as he is.

Even "gutless punks and cowards" can have their families unjustly murdered by federal agents recklessly overstepping their legal authority.

Most sincerely,
Pathetic Tam

[Justin]

i would like to know from those people calling him a racist what guidlines are used to determine this. and also what bearring that would have on the insident (sic) in question.

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2.Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


Definition taken from dictionary.com. (I often find it perplexing that in this day and age of the information superhighway that people continue to debate the definitions of words when a dictionary is but a url away.)

Now, bearing in mind the above definition, and hence guideline for what constitutes racism, I think we can unequivocably state that Randy Weaver is indeed a racist.

Now, having said that, even racist idiot nutbags like Weaver have a right to live their life as they see fit, so long as they aren't harming anyone.

I find it quite offensive that the feds saw fit to waste my money on a guy who, idiot though he is, had not attacked anyone.

On top of that, the feds did a fantastic job of justifying the rantings of every tinfoil conspiracy theorist in the country, and it just really rankles me that so many people consider the guy some sort of hero.

He's not.
He's an idiot and a loser who should have known when to call a lawyer.
Same goes for the feds.
They were a bunch of morons in handling a situation that never should have arisen in the first place.

[gunsmith]

I don't think anyone here would shoot a boy
and his dog.
especially when he is walking his dog
on his dads land in the middle of nowhere....
unless they is a grey or a reptillian from planet Gore/Clinton

[PDshooter]

Meet Randy at the Indy Gun show a few weeks ago. He was selling his book.
We chated for at least 10min, He wasn't no more goofy then anybody else there!

[SaintofKillers]

Randy Weaver probably thought that PDshooter was goofy.:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:

[Augustwest]

But alas, there are those that will always carry the torch for poor Randy.... sniffle.

They are just as pathetic as he is.

Count me among the pathetic.

While I never have (and never will), shared his beliefs about race, God, women, and I'm sure, a laundry list of other things, a guy who wanted to be left alone was pushed by the government into breaking a law that is antithetical to the principles this country was founded on.

Then a paramilitary police unit killed his wife and child.

Like Randy Weaver or not, t'was the rawest of deals, Ruby Ridge was.

[Quartus]

Even "gutless punks and cowards" can have their families unjustly murdered by federal agents recklessly overstepping their legal authority.



One of a suspicious mind might be persuaded to believe that it is precisely THOSE kind of people who are most likely to be "murdered by federal agents recklessly overstepping their legal authority".


But saying such a thing would be cop bashing, now, wouldn't it?

:rolleyes:

[seeker_two]

But alas, there are those that will always carry the torch for poor Randy.... sniffle.

They are just as pathetic as he is.

What was the story about: "When they came for the Jews, I said nothing"...:scrutiny:

[12-34hom]

Tamara, And just exactly how did the feds end up there?

Was it not Randy Weavers greed & stupidity that got him into trouble and three others killed where he resided?

Did he not fail to go to court and clear it up in an legal and adult manner?

The deaths of his wife & child and a federal agent all coincide with his failure to act in a manner as a law abiding citizen and take responsibilty for his actions.

12-34hom.

[cordex]

Was it not Randy Weavers greed & stupidity that got him into trouble and three others killed where he resided?
Don't know how much stock you can put into it, but he claims that he was destitute at the time and sold the illegally modified weapons in order to make money to feed his family.
Yeah, yeah, other ways to do it, but hardly what I'd call "greed".
Stupidity, I'll agree with.
Did he not fail to go to court and clear it up in an legal and adult manner?
Might've helped if they'd told him the right day to come, y'know?
The deaths of his wife & child and a federal agent all coincide with his failure to act in a manner as a law abiding citizen and take responsibilty for his actions.
Which does not in any respect excuse the heavy-handed actions of the federal agents.

If someone was driving too fast, are pulled over by a police officer and then summarily shot, it can be said that their failure to comply with the rules of the road lead to their death, but that doesn't excuse the cop for shooting them afterwards. An extreme example, to be sure, but I hope it illustrates my point.

[hvengel]

12-34hom wrote

"Was it not Randy Weavers greed & stupidity that got him into trouble and three others killed where he resided?

Did he not fail to go to court and clear it up in an legal and adult manner?

The deaths of his wife & child and a federal agent all coincide with his failure to act in a manner as a law abiding citizen and take responsibilty for his actions."

The feds changed the court date and did not notify Weaver. How could he "fail to act" if he did not receive notice?

We seem to be forgetting that the feds fired the first shoots (killing the dog) and Harris and the Sammy Weaver had no way to know who was shooting or why. All they knew was that men in camo suits appeared to be shooting at them. The fact that the shoot out was started by the feds has never been in dispute.

Greed I think not. Stupidity perhaps. Lets not forget that the jury clearly ruled the the feds entraped Weaver and that the only thing he was guilty of was failure to appear for a crime they ruled he had NOT commited.

In addition the government admitted guilt on thier part and settled with the Weavers for several million. The whole situation was clearly set up by the feds and they are clearly responsible for what happened.

Is Weaver a racist or crack pot? I personally don't know. But I have talked to him at a gun show for a few minutes and he didn't seem to be very much of a wack job. In fact, considering what he had been through, he seemed fairly normal to me.

Does his proported racisim or crazyness have any real bearing on what happened to him? I think not. In this country what you think and say should never be subject to goverment saction unless it results in harm to others (yelling fire...). In Weavers case all he wanted was to be left alone and he had clearly done no harm to anyone. If the feds has respected his rights he would be an unkown "nut" living in the outback that no one had heard of. And I am sure that Weaver would have perfered that to what happened.

Hal

[John Ross]

I have spoken to Randy Weaver in person on several occasions, when we were both signing books. I can't say that I "know" him, but the shortwave rantings you mention don't sound like anything that I ever heard come out of the mouth of the man *I* met.

As columnist Vin Supynowicz has said, Randy Weaver is a fairly good-looking and fairly charming and well-spoken man. He is about 5' 8" IIRC and slender. He does not come across as a low-IQ jerk or a gutless coward. He also does not come across as a person who has been coached as to what to say or how to act in public.

When they made a TV movie about Ruby Ridge, who was selected to play Weaver? RANDY QUAID. Suprynowicz pointed out that Quaid evokes images of Gomer Pyle on Quaaludes. It wouldn't do to cast a well-spoken, good-looking man as Weaver.

BTW Weaver shortened the shotgun barrel to a bit over 18", as many people do, and turned the buttstock into a handgrip. The OAL was under 26", making the gun illegal. Who cut enough off the stock to make the gun <26" long is uncertain, since Randy wasn't aware of this provision of the law and isn't sure if the gun's stock was short enough to give a too-short OAL when it left his hands, or not. There are documented cases where ATF agents converted semis to MGs and said someone else did it (the agents later confessed), so an agent shortening a piece of wood when no one was looking is clearly a distinct possibility.

ATF/FBI investigated this near-poverty-level citizen living in the middle of nowhere because he didn't want to be a spy for the feds, spying on the Aryan Nations camp a few miles away. They spent more man-hours and dollars on intel/surveillance of Randy Weaver than they did in preparation for the invasion of Haiti.

THAT ought to make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.

JR

[PDshooter]

"WELL SAID" John Ross!!!!!!

I meet the man too! He ant no low I.Q type!!!
:scrutiny:

[dadman]

Has anyone verified which shortwave show Weaver supposedly made these statements on?
Time, program, verify freq, and was Weaver serious?
Was the finger issue brought up in his book(which I haven't read)?
Why is the fingers/skull being mentioned now?

[Tamara]

Was it not Randy Weavers greed & stupidity that got him into trouble and three others killed where he resided?

Oh, yeah, I forgot!

"Greed & Stupidity in the 1st Degree" carries a sentence of "Your son & his dog backshot by a bunch of cops dressed like wannabe-commandos while he walks in the woods, and your wife tagged between the running lights by a highly trained federal sniper lying camouflaged on a hill 200 yards away"...

Thanks for reminding me!

[Tamara]

I never thought the man was stupid; from the few impressions I've had of him, he struck me as bright and articulate. However, anyone who subscribes to some of his personal beliefs also falls int my own personal "He didn't get all 64 colors in his box of Crayolas" category. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Like I said, though; wanting to live out in the woods and live by oddball philosophies or religious beliefs isn't a capital crime, last I checked. :uhoh:

[Orthonym]

Is it still ok to live on a mountaintop in Tennessee?:D

[Tamara]

As long as you killed you a b'ar when you were only three. ;)

[Art Eatman]

:D Given how many of us Terlinguoids live off in the middle of nowhere, I'm sure glad there are no Aryan Nation types around. TLOK (the Lord only knows) what we'd be accused of.

Y'know, when you read about the various doings of BATF over the last 15 or so years, it seems one prerequisite for agenthood is the ability to get excited over the crime of Mopery, with intent to Gawk.

:(, Art

[sw442642]

People don't think. Because the Feds acted badly doesn't mean that Weaver is worth spit as a human being.

Lots of apologists for white racists here. So given a black man says racist things, that excuses Weaver for being one?

He was a loser and held beliefs antithetical to any real American. The Feds screwed him over. Both stink.

[buzz_knox]

He was a loser and held beliefs antithetical to any real American. The Feds screwed him over. Both stink.

No question that he's a loser and has views which would be anathema to most. But, the problem is, the same 1st Amendment that lets you say that also allows him to hold those views free from any governmental retaliation. Because of his views, he was targetted by the gov't, and ultimately, his family was decimated. That's what people are having a problem with, along with the blind obedience offered to anyone asserting gov't authority.

[Quartus]

along with the blind obedience offered to anyone asserting gov't authority.

Yup.


That blind "Randy Weaver/Rodney King/Villian of the Day had it coming" mentality is a greater danger to our liberty than Hillery Clinton and her kind.

[Glock Glockler]

People don't think. Because the Feds acted badly doesn't mean that Weaver is worth spit as a human being.

So upon your determination of what someone's worth it's justified to kill their family?

Lots of apologists for white racists here. So given a black man says racist things, that excuses Weaver for being one?

Whether or not Weaver was a racist is irrelevant, he was a man who wanted to go off into the woods and be left alone, I would think that you'd want all racists to do likewise. The fact remains that he was set up by the govt and they behaved no better than murderers, the only difference being that they got to wear snappy uniforms.

He was a loser and held beliefs antithetical to any real American. The Feds screwed him over. Both stink.

I didn't know that you had the official declaration on what a real American is supposed to be. I also don't see how one could compare the Feds to Weaver, he wanted to be left alone and they did everything they could to not leave him alone and invade his life. They're not fit to clean dog crap off his shoes.

[Newton]

I don't really care what kind of person Randy is, or isn't. What I do know is that members of his family were murdered, and that noone was punished. Indeed I seem to recall that one of the senior agents in charge was promoted shortly afterwards "don't judge me by my words, judge me by my actions".

One of the documentaries made about the Waco massacre, showed local townsfolk rebuilding the compound on, or near to, the site of the original. The camera crew started interviewing a carpenter, who continued to work while they spoke to him in a wonderfully disinterested way, when they asked him about snipers, he pointed to a neaby house and said
"they all set themselves up in there, Horiuchi too".
The interviewer seemed shocked "you mean that Lon Horiuchi was here, at Waco", the guy replied,
"you didn't know that huh, hmmm, interesting" all while he continued to work.

Noone seems to mention that, few people even seem to know.

I can't help but wonder where that murdering peace of scum is today, and how many more young mothers holding babies have to die before we do something about the actions of him in particular, and law enforcement in general.

The people who really p*** me off are the ones who bleat about all this freedom we have, we really aren't that free, and it sounds more stupid every time I hear it. As ever YMMV.

[Atticus]

I once believed everything the media (and Hollywood) had to say about Weaver. Then I met him (just out of curiousity) and came away even more curious about the truth. He was nothing like I expected him to be (or was told to expect). He is a serious, calm, intelligent man. Weaver admits that he was wrong about a lot of things - he also remains steadfast in his belief that he was right about a lot of things. It's plainly ignorant to argue about the LEGAL aspects of this case, as the courts clearly ruled in his favor. However repugnant his racial beliefs were or are - absolutely nothing justifided the Government actions - not by a longshot. Personally, I doubt if his beliefs are much different from many rich folks who live in gated mansions and belong to private clubs. They just have better guns and lawyers. As far as being an ignorant loser, or a lunatic, a fool, a coward, or a punk? I don't think so. And neither was Vickie apparently.

Regarding the frootloop SW message: Sorry, but I'd have to more proof than an internet post about a SW broadcast. I doubt if it's true.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/3.html?sect=18

"Randall Claude Weaver was born on January 3, 1948. He was the only boy of four children born to Clarence and Wilma Weaver, a farming couple from Villisca, Iowa. The Weavers were deeply religious, however they had a difficult time finding a denomination which matched their views, hence they often bounced back and forth from Evangelical, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches. As Randy grew up, he strove to make his father proud. He earned decent grades in school and enjoyed a variety of sports and ultimately accepted Jesus as his savior at the age of 11.

Graduating from high school in 1966, Randy enrolled in Iowa Central Community College, where he met a pretty young student named Vicki Jordison. Following a school dance the two started dating and began to grow very close. Vicki Jordison was a year younger than Randy and had grown up in Fort Dodge, Iowa, just 50 miles north of Randy's childhood home. Similar to Randy, Vicki had also been raised with conflicting religious teachings. Her mother was a Congregationalist and her father a Mormon. Throughout her childhood, her father would often attempt to foretell current events as he compared the Bible?fs prophecies with the newspaper. As she grew into a young woman, Vicki was considered highly intelligent by her peers. She excelled in school and eventually became vice president of the Pleasant Valley Future Business Leaders of America and an active member in the Pixies 4-H group. Her younger sister, Julie, later stated that she was the kind of person that everyone liked and envied. In 1967 Vicki graduated from Fort Dodge High School and enrolled in Iowa Central Community College.

Despite the growing passion between Randy and Vicki, the war in Vietnam was beginning to escalate and Randy had a strong desire to fight for his country. In October of 1968 he said his good byes to Vicki, dropped out of school and joined the United States Army. Randy excelled in the military and quickly qualified for the Green Berets. The training is extremely demanding. Candidates must learn to survive with little food and equipment in the harshest of conditions, while becoming an expert in all forms of combat weapons and explosives. Randy again excelled and was promoted to the rank of sergeant following his training.

Randy's first assignment was at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. While most would have relished in the state side duty, he highly resented it. Randy could not understand the point of going through all the special training and not being able to put any of it to use. Friends later said that he became bitter over the fact that men who wanted nothing to do with the war were being sent over every day, and yet he, a trained warrior who had volunteered to go, sat at an Army base with minimal duties. As Randy waited for combat duty, Vicki Jordison was finishing her college studies, earning a two-year degree in business and was busy securing a job at the United Way.
In 1970 Randy secured a temporary leave from Fort Bragg and returned to his hometown for a visit. He had already decided to finish up his duties with the Army as quickly as possible and wanted to inform his family of his plans. It did not take long for him to look up Vicki and the two picked up where they had left off almost two years earlier. Within weeks, they were engaged to marry.

Vicki's family was concerned when they learned of the couple's quick engagement. In their eyes, the two had not courted long enough and were rushing into something for which they both were not prepared. Vicki explained to her family that she truly loved Randy and that they would have probably married years earlier if Randy had not enlisted in the military. In striving to keep their daughter happy, Vicki?fs family relented and gave the couple their blessing.

On October 8, 1971, following three years of duty, Randy Weaver received an honorable discharge from the Army and moved back home. One month later, in November of 1971, Randy and Vicki were wed during a small ceremony at the First Congregationalist Church in Fort Dodge, Iowa. In an attempt to please Vicki's family, two ministers conducted the ceremony, one from the Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints and the other a Congregationalist pastor.

Following the wedding the newlyweds moved into a small apartment two hours east of Fort Dodge, in Cedar Falls. Randy enrolled at the University of Northern Iowa to take criminal justice classes, intending to become an FBI agent. Nonetheless, the young couple found the cost of school to be too much for them and Randy eventually dropped out. The couple started selling Amway products to support themselves.

In 1973 the Weavers gave up on their career as Amway marketers. Randy secured a job at the John Deere tractor plant in Waterloo, just outside Cedar Falls, and Vicki got a job as a secretary at a Sears department store. They were both earning modest paychecks and eventually purchased a ranch-style home for $26,000 in a well-kept Cedar Falls neighborhood. They were seemingly quite happy „Ÿ they had plenty of money and Randy was always buying boats, motorcycles and sports cars.
........

[NIGHTWATCH]

Who cares, "racist", "separatist", loonie or otherwise. The ATF killed his wife and kid. Period. :fire:

Weaver was more like a canary in a coal mine to me.

[Atticus]

Nightwatch, I agree that Weaver's beliefs don't really matter. However, it does matter that the government, with great support from the media, tried to justify their actions by creating a fictional Weaver family. This seems to very common when the person or persons being targeted are "right wing gun nuts". It's a pretty sad fact that most of America learned about the Weavers by watching a made for TV movie. We all know that Hollywood is fair and balanced (Sorry Fox).

[Quartus]

Let's suppose Randy Weaver was all the scumbag racist wacko that the Establishment made him out to be:


Nothing in his attitudes or actions justifies what the Feds did.


If they can do it to him, they can do it to anyone, including the blind flag waving Law & Order My Country Is Not To Be Questioned! types.


And someday, very likely, they will. And those that survive will wonder how their free country became a police state. :(