[LtShortcut]

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:bOjCvOJJuwwJ:www.nj-ara.org/Zargon.pdf+The+Zargon+Connection&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Not cool.

[PotatoJudge]

The scenario deliberately distorts both the way humans treat animals in the wild and the justifications that are typically given for the sport hunting of wild animals.

Fixed it. Reading that was pretty much a waste of time. It did enumerate the misunderstandings, biases, ignorance, and emotionality of anti-hunters though.

[jasonguerard]

NO. I agree with the lesson.
As soon as the deer and squirrels form a preservation committee and bring this to the supreme court, I'll be there to testify. ;)

Someones signature line said it well, PETA is evil.

[joop]

Things like this make me think we need to thin our own herd. ;)

[Vern Humphrey]

Someones signature line said it well, PETA is evil.
P = pinheads
E = espousing
T = total
A = assinity

[longtooth]

P = people
E = eating
T = tasty
A = animals

:D

[Vermont]

The fact that this story ignores basic math should be enough to disqualify it from being taught in school.

Even if the space ships could travel thousands of times the speed of light, they would still take at least 2.5 years to get to Earth, not exactly something you could do on a long weekend.

The story states the following facts:
They are from the Andromeda galaxy
Their space ships can travel thousands of times the speed of light
They can come visit Earth for a long weekend

Facts about the universe:
The Andromeda galaxy is 2.5 million light years away.

Some calculations:
Let's assume that thousands of times the speed of light means 999,999 times the speed of light (and to be on the safe side we'll round up to 1 million). 2.5 million light years divided by 1 million light years per year equals 2.5 years.

2.5 years one way is not a long weekend vacation at all.

BTW, I have no problem with the main point of the exercise. It is thought provoking. It didn't make me want to stop hunting though.

[cjanak]

I think that the exercise uses some unnecessarily inflammatory language and some exaggerations, but overall I don't think the questions it pushes you to consider are all that unreasonable.

-Does the fact that animals appear to have inferior intelligence and/or capabilities than humans justify the hunting of animals?

Not necessarily.

-Is is not true that hunting causes pain and suffering to animals?

I think it's undeniable that hunting causes pain and suffering to animals. Obviously bow hunting and trapping do, but so do rifles... I don't care how good you are, you don't always get clean, instant kills (though I certainly believe most of us try to do so).

-Considering that human's are more intelligent and have access to extremely effective tools, how "fair" is any type of hunting?

I practice Fair Chase ethics, but I admit they are subjective, fairly arbitrary and don't really make hunting "fair" on some sort of objective sense.

-Is is possible that animals possess higher intelligence and more complex emotions that humans currently understand?

Yes, and I tend to thing they do. Once a month a read a study explaining something new and unique about animal intelligence and emotional complexity that wasn't previously known.

I hunt, but I don't claim that hunting is unambiguously a moral activity. Frankly I don't know if it is. So I think these are important questions for hunters to engage. I don't think I necessarily have any more moral right to kill deer than the fictional Zargonians do to kill humans.

[wheelgunslinger]

Yeah, it shouldn't be overly difficult for a student to address these moral issues and form their own opinion, provided you are raising your kids to think for themselves and not just parrot what grownups say.

[ZeSpectre]

Okay, the whole thing is severely biased with slanted language like "horrific" (um, isn't the intent to decide if it is horrific or not?) but it does address some of the ethical questions I had to wrestle with myself before attempting to hunt for the first time this year.

However the entire argument of it being a parallel to hunting simply falls apart from it's own weight. Hunted humans would react with forethought and planning. Hunted animals don't.

PETA can call animals equal when we have court cases where the animals protest that all the good jobs are being taken by us lousy humans.

[S&WKING]

thats pretty dumb because im sure wed be the hunted that attacks back and we probably kick some a$$. Its not like we are uninteligent to the zargonians because when i was there 2 years ago they didnt seem that smart. and they dont like to kill things anyways

[jagugator]

^
^
^
Now that is funny! :p

[Titan6]

The remainder of Earth they have designated as “human management areas," where they hunt us for pleasure, and for our meat, which is considered a delicacy by Zargonian gourmets. Zargonians use a variety of hunting techniques. Most often they shoot us from ambush.Other times, they frighten us and then shoot us in the back as we run for our lives. Another favorite technique is to unleash vicious Zargonian hounds who chase us to exhaustion and desperation, sometimes tearing us apart with their claws and teeth when they catch us. Occasionally, in a technique known as baiting, Zargonians will set up a fast food restaurant or pizza parlor and burst in on us while we eat,
with their Zargonian "street sweepers" blazing.

(once they are done the streets are very clean however)

[Floppy_D]

Interesting. If I see a feeder stand dropping chilidogs as I walk by, then I'll know to keep my head down.

[JShirley]

I wonder how the author determined that "These aliens are mentally far superior
to us." Also difficult to believe that this highly advanced society has a problem with losing wounded game. Hell, even humans have thermal detectors.

I can't really argue with the Zargonian logic. Sounds like an impetus for Earthlings to develop or adapt Z-level weaponry. :)

[mbt2001]

errrr...

How is this different than war? I don't understand what they are trying to teach. I mean, what is the difference if Zargon invades Earth versus Zargon hunting Earthlings??

The Zargonian's would have killed us by the millions during the invasion and since they speak telepathically, and we can't communicate with them (page 2) then how do we know we are being hunted vs at war and what in tarnation is the difference????? During the 1700’s and 1800’s they had HIGHLY refined rules of war. In a since, it was like hunting. If they chose to fight a war in that manner, then so be it…

[HeavyDuty]

I would be really pissed if I found a local teacher was using this in their lesson plan...

[JohnMc]

I figure if a race that can travel from Andromeda for weekend trips conquers us, they can pretty much hunt us all they want. Sure, I'd try to fight back (isn't this pretty much the plot of 'Predator', except for the sappy PETA inspired drivel? :) ), but I'm no Arnold.

7) The food chain is a fact of nature—the stronger kill and eat the weaker. Many, although not all, Zargonian hunters eat the humans they kill. Since because of their superior intelligence and technology they are higher on the food chain than humans, they are entitled to do this. It is part of the nature of things. About sums it up, except for the "Since because of..." grammar faux-pas.

And as long as fiction is the source material, as much as it would suck, I'd rather be in a managed game species than have the outcome from The Genocides by Thomas M. Disch. Kinda like the well-fed farm bunnies in Watership Down.:uhoh:

[Clark]

Those are liberal values [feminine].
Leave the killing to the men.

[MDHunter]

I think that the exercise uses some unnecessarily inflammatory language and some exaggerations, but overall I don't think the questions it pushes you to consider are all that unreasonable.

Dude, didn't even read the link, as a fellow hunter I'm shocked enough at the narrow perspective of your responses, that I'm gonna focus on them. Here we go:

-Does the fact that animals appear to have inferior intelligence and/or capabilities than humans justify the hunting of animals?

Not necessarily.

Life note - if you spend all of your life trying to justify your actions to anyone who leans strongly to either side of an issue, you're in a for a long and frustrating exercise. We're carnivores, both of our eyes face forward as do the eyes of all carnivores. We were genetically designed to hunt for out food. We don't need any more justification than that.

-Is is not true that hunting causes pain and suffering to animals?

I think it's undeniable that hunting causes pain and suffering to animals. Obviously bow hunting and trapping do, but so do rifles... I don't care how good you are, you don't always get clean, instant kills (though I certainly believe most of us try to do so).

If you think it's undeniable, you need to think a little harder. A well-placed arrow causes LESS pain and suffering to an animal than a rifle shot, because there's no big BANG to scare them - they feel a pin prick like a sting, and then many animals die within seconds. Compare that to the natural way that animals die: predation, where they're often eaten before they're even fully dead; starvation, which takes 1-2 weeks and includes immense suffering; disease, which also can take long periods and entails suffering; or being hit by a car, which may include suffering and also can endanger/kill multiple humans.

-Considering that human's are more intelligent and have access to extremely effective tools, how "fair" is any type of hunting?

I practice Fair Chase ethics, but I admit they are subjective, fairly arbitrary and don't really make hunting "fair" on some sort of objective sense.

"Fair" is a subjective measure, and you couldn't get a whole group of hunters to agree on this one, let alone hunters and ANTI-hunters. Again, why bother trying to justify your actions?

And if we include success rates in the fairness quotient, most hunters spend multiple days in the woods each fall, yet most are only successful in harvesting a deer on 1-2 days a year. The success rate overall is way below 50% = how much fairer do you want?

-Is is possible that animals possess higher intelligence and more complex emotions that humans currently understand?

Yes, and I tend to thing they do. Once a month a read a study explaining something new and unique about animal intelligence and emotional complexity that wasn't previously known.

This has no place in the argument. We don't hunt animals because they can't reason, we hunt them because they provide nutritious meat to ourselves or others in need. We were organic, centuries before the organic movement ever started.

I hunt, but I don't claim that hunting is unambiguously a moral activity. Frankly I don't know if it is. So I think these are important questions for hunters to engage. I don't think I necessarily have any more moral right to kill deer than the fictional Zargonians do to kill humans.

Do you have a moral right to engage in every daily activity you engage in?

[Art Eatman]

Last I heard, eating was moral. That's a good thing, since I haven't figured out an air-and-water diet. I do notice, commonly at Wal*Mart, that there are those among us who are obviously ultra-moral.

We're omnivores, so Biology 101 sez we're supposed to include meat in the diet.

The hunter is a do-it-yourselfer. The non-hunter merely hires someone else to do his scut work for him. He hires his killing done by somebody who doesn't object to getting his hands dirty.

[SCPigpen]

Its called the food chain damn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are some people discontent on being @ the top? Makes no sence. As a race, humas have spent their whole time on earth struggling to get to the top. Why a few liberals want to be somewhere in the middle is beyond my comprehension.

BTW, when aliens start hunting us, there will be nothing we can do about it. Except run.

[686S&W]

Hunting animals purely for sport is not really my thing.....however if it were certain humans, I'd pay $200 for a box of ammo, and $1000 per tank of gas just for such a long weekend.

[The Tourist]

I might not agree with the points of the end game, however, the concept of "turn-about" is a perfectly good tactic in a debate. In defending your beliefs with a postulate, you then must accept that same postulate used upon you.

And BTW, before we wash our hands, study some history on how the Jesuits treated native peoples in both North and South America. There's enough blood to pass around for everyone.

[JohnBlaze]

i really don't think it will make a difference, and as fiction, it sucks.

It is light years away from good analogous fiction like Watership Down or Animal Farm. I'd say it's the distance between the Andromeda Galaxy and our very own Milky Way.

[koja48]

So . . . if this is truly "role-reversal," does that mean PETA is pro-hunting in this new order? Not to worry . . . in the sequel, the Zargonians are driven-out by an army of tofu . . . President Bambi forges that alliance.

[The Tourist]

President Bambi forges that alliance.

You miss the point. There's no reason we can't craft a story about babbling despot named Hillary. With blood and spittle streaming from her lips, she crushes an otherwise law abiding colonial group who have been disarmed by expanding laws and tarriffs.

[JohnMc]

It is light years away from good analogous fiction like Watership Down or Animal Farm.No doubt about that. Plus, it doesn't point out the whole picture. Clearly, these "Zargonians" could have stood off in space and sterilized the earth, but they chose another option. A crappy one, from the human point of view, but a valid "turn-about" concept.

In my opinion, if a species is on the losing end of the stick, it's better to be managed for sport or food and kept alive, as a species, than simply terminated.

Cows, as a species, are better off than American Bison. And the bison are better off today, as a managed game species, than they were about 100 years ago, when nobody managed them. Ask a passenger pigeon which option to take...

As for me, I'll be out in the woods this fall, hunting Bambi for his meat, which is considered a delicacy by Zargonian, oops, human gourmets.

[The Tourist]

One of the greatest treasures (perhaps unappreciated at the time) was the opportunity to attend history classes from Mr. Worster at Menomonee Falls High School.

Unknown then, Mr. Worster chose the students he would teach, and not always the "A students" as I can attest.

He taught his wards to be tough, skeptical, alert, and to always read between the lines.

I have always admitted that Sonny Barger formed a structure for the tenacity used in my life. And clearly, a broken nose hurts less than a loss of honor.

But Mr. Worster gave that concept a voice for me. And certainly in my life I've taken down hundreds more posers and users with those principles learned in his history class than I have with a tire iron.

I wish that every kid who had to mire through this rubbish could then be directed to a man like Mr. Worster. The problem is that the kid would dismantle the Zargonian syllabus the following day.

Perhaps education is the best weapon here.

[Jason M]

I will shoot anything that is legal to take in the season I am hunting in. I will shoot them time and time and time again. My biggest wet-dream is to get out to Utah or some place and absolutely annihilate prairie dogs.

Cynical? Maybe. But I don't care.

This lesson is 100% one-sided. To think that these "Zargonians" are so far superiorly intelligent to use that they could trick us time and time again into being preyed upon is just outrageous. We've evolved in the manner we have because we learn and adapt with intelligence and logic.

PETA is an extremist agenda oriented organization that would rather corrupt the youth with misinformation and falacies of the truth rather than present a neutral point of view and allow the kids to decide for themselves.

I really need to get a t-shirt that says "People Eating Tasty Animals."

[JohnMc]

Jason,

Re: Getting tricked.
Sometimes, you have no choice. Think Christians in Rome ~2000 years ago. Sure, they won in the end, but an awful lot visited the Coliseum, looking up at the bleachers for just one last time.

RE: prairie dogs
In case you haven't already seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omP4tw2AQ2w
It's what a .22-250 does.
(I can't wait to try my hand at it.)

Enjoy,
JohnMc

[bleachcola]

I think the average human is less intelligent than wild animals. So that point is moot.

[bobby68]

The little "moral" errs by ignoring that God has given man the right to eat the furry animals, not to mention that the Zargonians don't have that right to eat humans.

I almost feel sorry for people who don't realize how much public schools can harm their children these days. Of course i'm more sorry for the kids.

[Savage Shooter]

Ah this is the perfect time to unleash the... wait for it...wait for it...almost there... cue the dramatic music...TIN FOIL HATS that'll save us.:D

Some one find out where they sell peta shirts i sooo need one. Not the fake organization but what peta really stands for People Eating Tasty Animals.:neener:. talk about your homeland terrorists. :D

[Thernlund]

http://www.roadkilltshirts.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=PS%200036%20PETA


-T.

[Koos Custodiet]

http://www.tigersandstrawberries.com/2005/07/12/meat-comes-from-animals-deal-with-it-or-eat-vegetables/

I can't say it better.

This one's also good http://www.tigersandstrawberries.com/2007/07/24/morganna-the-adventures-of-an-ethical-omnivore-in-training/

[Thernlund]

The point of the story, I think, is to ask: What if an intelligence of the same proportion higher than us that we are of deer and rabbits were to begin hunting us?

I personally think that if such a scenario plays out (ie. we are no longer at the top of the food chain), then so be it. I believe in Darwin, and the strongest will prevail. I can only HOPE there would be laws regarding hunting humans and some degree of real population management.

But ultimately, deductive reasoning on our part would eventually level the playing field. Humans operate on more than just fight or flight instincts. We learn and adapt at a pace far far greater than the speed of evolution. We learn/evolve proactively, not reactively. I don't think that that can be said of any other members of the animal kingdom.

I am reminded of the debacle that was the book, then film, Battlefield Earth.

Or the original movie Planet of the Apes, where the astronauts first encounter with the apes is during a human hunt.


-T.

[silvestris]

Better that the kids watch "Planet of the Apes", enjoy the movie and then go hunting.

[bleachcola]

Any animal that has the means to kill a human has done so many times throughout history. We should protest animals. Murdering bastards. They need to learn compassion.