[280shooter]

My rifle has the 1-8 twist,I would like to try to use it on Doe here In Pa,
Who makes the best Bullet tips for the heavier game,I can shoot the heavier tips in the 70s gr,And my shoot will be well under 100 yards,so a neck shoot or heart shot will do it,

[Sergeant Sabre]

A heart shot will do.

Barnes TSX, and no others would be my choice.

[rcmodel]

Any of the bonded core hunting bullets should do nicely.

But even better, the 60 grain Nosler Partition, or Barnes solid copper TSX 62 or 70 would be some to look at very closely.

rcmodel

[Shawnee]

+1 vote for the 60gr. Nosler Partition.


:cool:

[280shooter]

Sounds good,.I'll have to get some of them,60 gr sounds like that should work well,
I'LL only be shooting close out of my tree stand,So it might even be as close as 20 yards. or less.

[dwschoon]

Take a look at the 65gr Game King from Sierra.

[Sunward]

Federal has a 69gr Matchking BTHP, so does remington. I personally wouldn't (well its not legal here) use a .223, but use .243 minimum, or .270 better.

[rcmodel]

The heavy Matchking BTHP type bullets are not designed for hunting.

They may expand, or they may not.
Or they may just blow up or tumble.

They are designed for long range target shooting, and bullet performance on game was not even a consideration.

rcmodel

[skinewmexico]

My twins have killed between 15-20 does the last three years with a 223. It's shot placement. And unless the does in PA are giant, I wouldn't waste the money on premium bullets, a Remington Core-lokt (55g) works just fine. Haven't had one go over 5 yards yet.

[627PCFan]

Any who has used a .223 nosler partition, chime in. Where to shoot, and what was the condition of the bullet after?

[Shawnee]

Was apparently asleep at the wheel and it didn't register that your shooting would be so close. Under 100yds. you could use any of the ammo offered by Hornady, Remington, Winchester or Federal, even the "cheap stuff" or the V-max type bullets. No need at all for premium bullets at those ranges. What you'll need most is to put the shot in the right place. Would personally favor the neck shots.

Good Luck !
:cool:

[skinewmexico]

The one time I used a Nosler partition at 100 yards on a doe, I couldn't find the bullet to tell you a condition. The exit hole was the same diameter as the entrance hole though. That's why I like cheap bullets.

[Steel Talon]

FWIW,

I've always used the Hornady 55gr. spire points (.223 and 22-250)on all animals Ive taking with it to include coues white tail. Clean kills

[rcmodel]

That's why I like cheap bullets.So, the Nosler Partition failed because the dead deer had an exit wound?

Mercy!

rcmodel

[skinewmexico]

As a general rule, I like a bullet that will give me a bigger exit hole than entrance hole. I'm just funny that way. But I also realize that in today's world, anything but a bonded Nosler, Swift, or Sierra usually bounces right off the average doe.

[Deer Hunter]

I use the most dirt cheap soft point ammo I can find. I use Brown Bear SPs for my mosins, monarch for my FAL and .223 rifles, and Core-lokt for my 336.

Never had a deer complain.

[TimboKhan]

I can't believe this thread. Don't you guys know that Deer can shrug off a .223 like it was a bullet made from the tears of bigger, more awesome bullets?

Jeeze. If you're not using at least a .45-70, you're unenlightened, unethical and probably a communist.

[280shooter]

Im glad I asked that question,
Yes I know I can use bigger,And i have for years,When they had brought out the 444 I had to have one,,Ohhh i was going to hunt moose n bear,that never happened.I killed one deer with it,I thought wow over killllll,,what am i doing shooting 265 gr bullets at a 70 lb doe,I sold that to my buddie, he killed a big black bear,and still reloads for it,
I killed Deer with 30-30, 30-06 ,12 gauge slugs ,muzzleloaders,221 Fire ball.I just had heart bypass and I couldn't carry anythig heavy, 44 mag,280,8 mm,and a bunch with my bows,All on public game lands,NO DEER farms.I just thought I like to kill deer with a 223 and not have a lot of damaged meat,seeing how the average doe in PA,might go 70 lbs.
Plus I can have my daughter sit with me,and we can share the same rifle,

[Steel Talon]

So, the Nosler Partition failed because the dead deer had an exit wound?

It does when the bullet only "pencils" through...

[rcmodel]

But, if it killed the deer, it didn't fail!

I would not be surprised greatly to see a Nosler partition shed it's front section inside the deer, tear a big hole in the vitals, and have the rear section drive on through.

rcmodel

[learningman]

I've used American Eagle Ballistic Tips 55grn on all my deer kills with my 223. And I used that gun all on Montana muleys. Put it where it kills and thats all that matters. I had a limited hunting budget so at the time cheaper was better. But they did the job if I did my part and place the shot where it would be the most effective.

[skinewmexico]

The only doe I have lost was the one shot with the Partition. Didn't find it for a few days, and it was shot well. The does shot with the cheap bulletts were DRT.

[avan47]

My Rem 700 LV in 223 is my primary hunting rifle now. Before I got it, I used a TC contender in 223. I hunt mostly hogs and deer, and I have killed a lot of them with the 223. If you plan to use head and neck shots like I do to minimize lost meat, any bullet will do. The Hornady 55 gr FMJ is very accurate in my rifle. So is the remington 55 gr soft point. That one would probably do for lung shots.

[nathan]

Will drop them right there.

[B Man]

I started using 60gr. nosler partitions in my .223 and the bullet always held together and exited or was found in the hide still intact. I have one from where my brother shot a doe at 125yds. quatering him and I found the bullet in the hide in the rear of the ribs mushroomed completley out to the center cooper jacket.

Great bullet for deer!

[Art Eatman]

Just match the bullet weight and the twist; whatever seems most accurate in your experience. Somewhere around the 65- to 70-grain size sounds about right.

[R.W.Dale]

Federal has a 69gr Matchking BTHP, so does remington. I personally wouldn't (well its not legal here) use a .223, but use .243 minimum, or .270 better.

If you're going to use match bullets like you suggest then YOU shouldn't hunt deer with ANY of the calibers you list

[ltetmhs]

+1 Timbo Khan. I love it!

[nambu1]

I loaded both 55gr. and 63 gr. for a friend of mine. His wife has taken 5 does with them.

[HGUNHNTR]

22 caliber ballistic tips, and vmax's were not meant for larger heavier game.l They have a very thin jacket, and are not going to be as consistent at taking deer sized game as the appropriate bullet would.

now I'm sure I will hear the "the deer I have shot never complained", "my cousins nephew never had em' go further than 5 feet" blah blah blah

[MCgunner]

Well, if it's good enough for cape buffalo (see thread), what's a whitetail doe got for it? :neener:

[T.R.]

This is my oldest daughter and a muley doe she toppled with my .223 varmint outfit. Ammo used was Winchester SUPER X featuring 64 grain soft tip. This is a genuine deer bullet. It broke a rib going in and another coming out opposite side! This doe bounded away at the shot but collapsed after a couple jumps.

Check your hunting statutes for PA: I'm thinking .223 is not authorized for hunting deer. I hunt whitetails in Bucks County with my old USAF buddy. We hunt with rifled-bore shotguns.
TR

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/KVL2ndmuley.jpg

[koja48]

Have never used a .223 for deer, but Hornady bullets have always performed well.

[280shooter]

yes I can use 223,I used 221 fireball.i killed a big whitetail.with that,but that was in 1987,I hunt in the Capitol area,Not phily or the area you mention.Yes I know some areas here in PA,you have to use shotgun or muzzleloaders,

I have this talk with my brothers and hunting friends,my one brother uses a weatherby 300,one uses 30-06 220 gr,one uses nothing but muzzleloader,and i'll use my 280 ,but most times i use my bows,now heres my thinking,I DID SAY MY thinking.I rather have a bullet,crush a shoulder.and lodge under the hide on the other side,then blow a hole right on through the deer.When I was using my 30-30 when thats all i had to hunt with,I found if i go to 150 gr,over the 170 gr,Deer didnt run as far or not at all.and i have to say lot of the deer didnt have a exit hole.but them 150 gr,sure killed them Deer fast,

I tried to get my brothers to go lighter in bullet weight,I mean how dangerous are these PA white tail.where You have to use a 300 mag,or 30-06 with 220 gr,I never had a whitetail charge me.

So thats another reason i want to use 223,i'll pick a 60 gr and load for Deer.and blast them in the neck.Deer are a thin skin animal. 223 should work well

[usmcpmi]

I was sitting in the blind this last year when my daughter took her first doe with her Remington 700 in .223. 60 gr. Nosler. 110 yds. Perfect shot placement, just behind the flod of the front leg, 1/3 up from the bottom of the chest. IMO... Does are thin skinned animals. The .223 works just fine. I have fired thousands of .223 rounds out to 600 meters. Never had a doubt that they would do the job when they got there. Doubt it?? Just ask some of the guys who have been in the middle east the last 5+ years. Maybe not their weapon of choice, but effective none the less. MG

[docmagnum357]

My first deer kill was withy a 22-250. I Shot a small doe at about 125 yards. I shot her a little too far back, and got in the back of the lungs, liver, and tore open the stomache. She ran about two hundred yards, and was feet up under a bid oak. If I had to guess, I would say she had hit the tree. I never saw a deer more messed up on the inside. Load was a 55 grain Remimington factory hollow point of some kind. Lost a sestion of rib on each side about two inches long. About half or less of the bullt exited, the other half was on the inside. I am going to sell my 7mm mag and get a black rifle for different reasons. I will probably use it for deer. I am very comfortable with using small caliber rifles for deer, provided you hit them right, they will kill like lightning.

[MCgunner]

So .223 is too destructive? Well, makes sense. I mean, a gun that can take down a cape buffalo has no place hunting deer. You need a .22 LR conversion on that black rifle.....or.....maybe a pip squeak .30-30. Oh, I know, the .30-30 ain't powerful enough. Been told that many times. But, I've killed a few deer with it, really, honest, it didn't even bounce off like they said it would! Of course, I have to go to a chiropractor after firing it to reset my shoulder, massive recoil and all. But, it's all I got. I'm gonna get me one of them black rifles some day, though. Been bettin' on the lotto. It's bound to hit, soon.

[GooseGestapo]

The use of the various .22cf's for deer has been beaten to death.
So, here we go, again.........................

It works, what else is there to say?

Most naysayers have little or no experience with them, and are regurgitating "what they've read".............

BTDT; I've killed in excess of 200 deer over the past 20+yrs with various .22cf's and have developed some firm opionions. Far and away, most were crop damage/nusiance kills while OTJ as GameWarden. I have a degree in Wildlife Biology, so my knowledge of deer anatomy is better than average.

With the .223, a 55gr or heavier soft-point bullet will work splendidly. Of course shot placement is important. FWIW, I've lost more deer shot with 12ga slugs, and .45/70 than with .22cf's, so, shot placement is ALWAYS critical. Athough at ranges of under 150yds the 55 and 63gr FMJ's "can" give some good performances, they generally are illegal for game use, and otherwise should be excluded.

My personal favorites for the the .223 regardless of twist rate (my little Rem M7 with a 1/12" twist likes the same bullets as the 1/9"twists I've used) are:
60gr Hornady Soft Point (far and away my personal favorite!)
63gr Sierra Semi-point
65gr Sierra BTSP. (actually is quite accurate in my 1/12" twist Rem. M7). None of these have ever been recovered, but evidence it expands well out to ~300yds with a 2,850fps launch speed) A very good bullet, indeed!

In a factory load, the 64gr Winchester is a best pick, but the 55gr PtSpt have worked splendidly in handloads, as too, the 55gr Hornady.

The 60gr Nosler I'm sure will do well in any reasonable .22cf application. (obviously not the .22Hornet!)

My only .22cf deer kill with a .22-250 was with the Remington 55gr PtSpt. It performed well with a lung shot at a later measured 262yds. Expanded on entry on a rib, took out another rib on exit, and left a nice 30yd blood trail to a definitely dead deer. Or, in otherwords, about like my .257wbymag with a 100gr bullet at approx. same speed and shot placement.........
This year will see much more use of my Rem700 in .22-250. It's now the most accurate rifle I own, or have ever owned. (And it's got a standard wt. bbl, too! go figure! (shoots in the high "3's" and low "4's" with Sierra bullets 50-63gr). Five shots, not just 3!

Most of my .22cf kills have been w/.223; secondly with a .22Hornet and even includes some shot with cast bullets.

I prefer Heart/lung shots as I've had too many instances with neck/head shots where a second shot was necessary due to last moment movement of neck/head by deer resulting in an other than intended shot placement. Shot placement is less critcal with a heart/lung shot and allows a greater allowance for windange and range estimation errors.

The few less than exemplary performances have been with H.P. or Plastic Tipped bullets. I can't recommend them, in ANY weight in .224". Not to say they ALL failed, just more often. (Most dramatic kill with a .22Hornet was with a 35gr V-max, and a heart shot, at that. But I won't use it again.....)

Where they're legal, (.22cf's) They work !!

[jimmyraythomason]

I recently bought a Steven's Model 200 in .223 Rem. It has a 1:9 rate of twist. I have bought 100 rounds of Brown Bear 62gr soft points, which I think will be potent doe medicine. It will likely be my "meat" rifle but my wife will use it most of the time. Of course once the freezer is full I will opt for a bigger cal.

[MCgunner]

I'm sellin' all my rifles and getting a .223. I don't wanna be out of the loop, ya know. That POS .308 doesn't kill 'em dead enough.

[R.W.Dale]

I'm sellin' all my rifles and getting a .223. I don't wanna be out of the loop, ya know. That POS .308 doesn't kill 'em dead enough.

No offense but I've seen the pics you've posted of those tiny dog sized deer on the back of your motorbike a .223 would serve you quite well. After all it's way more powerful and effictive than your .357 mag you touted previously and that worked just fine.

[MCgunner]

Well, that was a spike, but they don't get that big down here. A dressed 5-7 year old at 120 lbs is about it. Still, I have been convinced the .223 is better than my pip squeak .308, even if we have hogs that go well over 300 lbs down here. I've avoided shooting the big hogs, kinda nasty to eat, and I don't trust my 7 mag or my .308 to kill a big hog, well, not as dead as a .223 will kill one. You've convinced me.

[R.W.Dale]

Pardon me but I must have missed where hogs are mentioned in this thread's title. I was under the false assumption that it was about small does, for some strange reason.

[MCgunner]

No, it's about deer, but as I said, if the .223 is a great cape buffalo gun, why couldn't it kill a deer? We all know it's the best hunting caliber extant. All you have to do is put the round in the right spot, right? I wouldn't go far with a .22 in my eye socket, either.

Me, I'd be hunting with the .22 mag, but for some archaic reason, Texas outlaws rimfires.

[Deer Hunter]

Although your posts drip with sarcasm, I believe you're turning away from what numerous people have said in this thread.

Yes, it is entirely possible to kill a deer with a .223. Especially if we are talking about 120 pound Does. Someone should not feel undergunned for using it, especially if they are comfortable with the platform.

No one has said that it is superior to larger and heavier calibers.

I've said this before a few times, but I stand by it. I'd rather hunt with a guy who knew what he was doing with a .223 than a guy who didn't know what he was doing with a .300 mag.

And my girlfriend will probably be starting with a .223 to hunt with.

[MCgunner]

Well, I wasn't trying to be serious. Just disregard it. All stems from a single thread about minimum calibers.

[moooose102]

ok, ill bite, what is it about the deer being a doe, that make the 223 an ok deer gun. if it is ok for doe, it should be ok for a buck. the sex of a deer doesnt make it tougher. and that little bit of hanging flesh does not repel bullets. personally, i think a 223 is just plain to small for deer. thats my opinion and im sticking to it. but i still want to know why its ok for doe, and not for all deer.

[280shooter]

I be willing to bet that more Deer fell to the tiny 22Hornet,then almost any other calibor.Thats a very old,round,people used that when thats all they had to use,Talk to the old timers,ask them how many guns sit in there closets,i bet they have 1, 22,1 shot gun,and one rifle.and they used that rifle for Deer,i bet it was a 22 hornet,
We have so many choices now adays.people in the 20s and 30s dint have what we have today,they were tring to scratch out a living,they didnt have extra money for fancy rifles or pistols.
I have lots of choices to hunt anything with,Being from PA,and i hunt public lands,I rather bow hunt,I see a lot less hunters
When reg,Rifle season starts,all you see is orange,I much rather stay home then hunt like that,So i use my time to hunt Deer,in the PA bow season,So if i have to hunt with a rifle.I just want to try the 223,when the reg.deer season rolls around,

[cjanak]

I think krochus has a point. With the right bullets, isn't a .223 about the same a .357 Magnum at shorter distances? A .223 might sound small at first, but I don't think I'd hesitate to use a .357 at close range, so I'm not sure there's any good reason not to use a .223under similar circumstances.

Disclosure: I’ve shot both just a little.

[usmcpmi]

MCgunner, OK we all get the direction your posts are going...MY rifle is that out of date 30-06 round. Which seems to do well enough for the shooting I do. But like I said before, my teenage daughter has a .223 that she used to take her first doe. It worked out just fine. She did her part and the doe went in the freezer. Of course, now she has grown some, so this year we are looking at a .243 for next season. I just thought it would be a better plan to start her off with a smaller caliber...insted of handing a 13 yo a .30-06 and telling her to shoot a deer. I think that would be the last time she would have gone hunting with ol'Dad. But this way, maybe I'll have a hunting partner for at least a few more years....MG

[Sunray]

"...or the V-max type bullets..." Don't even think about using a V-Max. They're varmint bullets and are not suitable for deer sized game. Varmint bullets are designed to expand rapidly upon impact with little penetration.
A Sierra 65 grain Gameking or a Nosler 60 grain Partition would do. However, like moooose102 says, the .223 is too light for deer of any sex.
"...be willing to bet that more Deer fell to the tiny 22 Hornet, than almost any other calibre..." You'd lose.
"...I'm thinking .223 is not authorized for hunting deer..." Looked into that. PA says any centrefire, manually operated, rifle. As daft as that is. Same thing up here in Ontario. PA requires a minimum .27 cal with a 130 grain bullet for elk, but anything goes for deer. No semi-autos at all.

[R.W.Dale]

I think krochus has a point. With the right bullets, isn't a .223 about the same a .357 Magnum at shorter distances?

With deep penetrating hunting bullets the .223 will create much larger wounds and penetrate deeper than any .357 magnum load. Using proper bullets the .223 is going to be much more effective that 357 at the same ranges. The two cartridges are very similar in that bullet selection is critical to optimum performance. 125grn gold dots for the .357 are just as unsuitable for deer hunting as a 50grn v-max from a .223

Barnes 60grn or partitions at 3000 fps versus 180 grn .357 hp at 1200 if I were Bambi I know which round I'd rather take my chances with. In fact the little .223 packs the same muzzle energy as a 240grn .44 magnum, put that energy to work through the application of a tough bullet and just like the 44 you'll end up with fresh venison stew every time.

[Art Eatman]

My umpteenth iteration: The last ten or twelve years have seen a helluva lot of R&D by the bullet manufacturers in improving ALL hunting bullets.

What's available, today, in twenty-two caliber is way, way superior to what was available in the past. It's no longer a "varmints only" deal.

However, there's no magic, and shot placement is as critical today as it ever has been...

:), Art

[MCgunner]

Well, there is limited energy in the .22. I'd not push it past 200 yards for sure and I'd still prefer 150 an in just based on the fact that it drops off past that range to very low levels and doesn't have the bullet mass/momentum to make up for it. No biggy on my place, can't SEE 200 yards in most directions, LOL. Longest shot I've made on a deer there was 150. That's why I like handgunning there, adds a little more spice, more challenge. My .308 feels like cheating, too easy, but if it's meat I want.... :D Out west, I've made a couple of 350 yard cross canyon shots and passed on a few where the angle wasn't right and I didn't feel good about it.

There's my umpteenth post. Tried to stay serious this time. :D

[280shooter]

PA regs state ANY CENTER FIRE RIFLE.for Deer the bullet has to be lead tip or expand on contact,
NOW Elk is 27 cal or larger,and 50 cal.or larger for muzzleloader for elk,
Yea I know the PA Regs,you have to stay up on the PA.regs,they seem to change them in mid stream some years,

www.pgc.state.pa.us

look the regs up. we have some that will leave you scratching your head,

['Bama Bammer]

With deep penetrating hunting bullets the .223 will create much larger wounds and penetrate deeper than any .357 magnum load.

Barnes 60grn partition at 3000 fps versus 180 grn .357 hp at 1200 if I were Bambi I know which round I'd rather take my chances with. In fact the little .223 packs the same muzzle energy as a 240grn .44 magnum, put that energy to work through the application of a tough bullet and just like the 44 you'll end up with fresh venison stew every time.

Dang...I spewed my supper on my monitor when I read the above brilliance! One thing about a .357 bullet: no matter what, it'll always make a hole At LEAST .357" in diameter. Same cannot be said of a .22 caliber bullet. And to compare bullet energies of a .224" to a .429" is just plain silly.

I honestly think some people spend too much time at their computers and not enough time in the field!

If you can find time, look up some of Brain Pierce's articles in Handloader Magazine on hunting with the 357 Mag. Very interesting stuff and he has some pictures of some recovered bullets from animals such as mule deer. Not many pics though as most of the bullets, according to him, exit the game.
BB
P.S.- When did Barnes start making a partition bullet? Oh wait! I remember! It was about the same time Nosler started making the Triple Shock!:D

[Sunray]

"...we have some that will leave you scratching your head..." Yep. The rules are daft. Comes from idiot civil servants making the rules.
Ontario says that a rifled barrel 870 is still a shotgun for shotguns only areas. Asked 'em.
We have areas that don't allow any centre fire rifle greater than .275 calibre, but a .270 Win is ok. Goes by the name of the cartridge, not the bullet diameter. (Rumour has it that it was to stop W.W. I vets from using surplus .303's.) A .275 Weatherby is fine, but a .276 Pedersen, if you could get it, is not. Some places say nothing bigger than .270 calibre.

[moooose102]

I be willing to bet that more Deer fell to the tiny 22Hornet,then almost any other calibor. WRONG, IT IS THE 30-30. if you cant handle the recoil from a 30-30, you dont belong in the woods.

[R.W.Dale]

Dang...I spewed my supper on my monitor when I read the above brilliance! One thing about a .357 bullet: no matter what, it'll always make a hole At LEAST .357" in diameter.

SO! How much of a perminate wound cavity does a cast 158grn swc at 1300 fps create? Can you shoot a whitetail high in the lungs with one and still trash both lungs and the heart? To the point where they practically are turned to liquid?

I honestly think some people spend too much time at their computers and not enough time in the field!

I'm left wondering the same in your case, some people need to realize that it's not 1977 any longer that bullets have come a long long ways since Jimmy Carter was president.:rolleyes:

[Art Eatman]

Enuf personal stuff, so enuf.