help me find ,45 auto handgun according to my requirements


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zeeshan
July 17, 2008, 06:34 PM
I have done research into one problem , why the ejected catridges hit my face . its because of bigger ejection ports on glock and hk handguns. the ejection port extends upwards and some rounds are not ejected sideways but upward and backward to the face. what do you think?



plus, i am right handed but my dominant eye is left so gun is right in front of my face so, the probability of ejected catridge hittin my face is higher compared to shooters with right dominant eye.

Currently i am using STOEGER COUGAR 9mm(it is same copy of Brettas COUGAR8000). I have fired nearly 7000 rounds from it without ant problem at all( I consider it as perfect gun except sights are not very good for fast acquistion of target). It has ejection port to the right only and not upwards like glock or hk etc, thatswhy the ejected carteridge never goes upwards and backwars on my face or torso.

Anyways, i want to switch to .45 auto .
can you please guide me in choosing the a handgun in .45 auto with following chracteristics?

1. extreamely reliable and very durable.

2. polygonal barreling and other any features for highest accuracy.

3. ejection port to the right (not extended upwards).

4. decocker and manual safety(with safety on the pin should be blocked and not just the trigger).

5. fast target accquisition sights ( eg 3 dots or glock type sights or straight eight sights, and perferrably night sights to glow in dark).

6. medium or just compact size for concealed carry( but in no way the compactness should compromise the reliability and durability factor. meaning, the size factor can be compromised but not the reliability and long service life factor of the gun).

7. smoothest and lightest trigger pull possible as in my experience trigger pull adds considerably to acccuracy.

8. light weight if possible (but not at the stake of any other traits mentioned above).

9. ejected carteridge should NOT hit my face

10. The gun should not be needed to be cocked for getting locked(meaning the gun should have manual safety, and safety could be activated regardless the hammer is cocked or not unlike cz9mm).

11. lowest possible bore axis for accurate rapid shooting.

your help will be very much appreciated,

zeeshan

zeeshan.haider@hotmail.com

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Jason_G
July 17, 2008, 06:42 PM
H&K: USP45 and compact, HK45 and compact
S&W: M&P 45 (if you can live with no decocker, but it is available with a manual safety)
Beretta: PX4 (I think. I can't remember if the decocker/safety meets your requirements or if it's like the CZ).

Jason

sevin8nin
July 17, 2008, 06:53 PM
I was gonna say the CZ75 compact because it covers everything you want, except the .45 part.

hmmm. I honestly don't know of any .45 pistol that fits all of those requirements.
I think your main focus should be figuring out why brass hits you in the forehead on guns that don't fling brass at thousands of other people's foreheads.

It could be your grip, although I'm not sure specifically how. But I know i was shooting with a guy once who was limp-wristing his glock all day and kept getting brass really close to him and lots of jams.

There aren't that many companies that make 45s with a DA/SA trigger and a manual safety that can be activated in either DA or SA mode. The only one that comes to mind if HK, but then they've got the large ejection port.

everallm
July 17, 2008, 09:08 PM
For the CZ style platform ergonomics see if you can get hold of one of the EAA/Tanfoglio Witness range.

http://www.eaacorp.com/handguns.html

mtngunr
July 18, 2008, 12:59 AM
Extractor tension can determine where brass goes, as well as ejector length.

zeeshan
July 18, 2008, 03:02 AM
well has anyone had the same experience with hk and glock as i have?

jlh26oo
July 18, 2008, 06:30 AM
The polygonal rifling requirement is the spoiler. That eliminates almost everything save Kahr, GLOCK, H.K., and Magnum Research. I personally like poly rifling too, but you mentioned you want it for increased accuracy? I wouldn't count on it for that. I like it in compacts and subs to make up for some of the velocity lost in short barrels, but in a full size pistol especially I'd recommend reconsidering conventional rifling just to open up your options (you'd have S&W, C.Z., Taurus, F.N.P., H.K., Ruger, are all availabe with a manual safety and traditional double action; also the X.D. and M&P are now available with a manual safety).

But O.K. if polygonal rifling is really less negotiable than excessive weight, and it must have a safety- then the Magnum Research Baby Eagle in .45 A.C.P. has polygonal rifling, D.A./S.A. with a safety/decocker... and weighs nearly 3lbs! THat's the danger of letting a rigid list of criteria determine a choice, you can sometimes miss the forest for the trees.

And zeeshan, are you certain you're not letting the GLOCK and H.K. torque in your grip a little? THe fact that brass in the face is happening with BOTH of those makes me wonder (are they both .45's just out of curiosity)? Because the U.S.P. is pretty much what best meets your criteria and I'd recommend it long before the B.E., J.M.O. and Y.M.M.V.

Hey if your COUGAR really is "perfect" except for the sights, can you upgrade to N.S.?


Good luck!

Shadow1198
July 18, 2008, 07:09 AM
Now, if the gun was consistently ejecting brass directly into your forehead EVERY single time, yeah that would get a little annoying. Out of all the guns I've shot, I have never had one consistently eject to the rear like that, so I highly doubt that is going to happen on a properly functioning gun.

As far as eye dominance, that's not an issue and that ~1-2" difference at most in gun alignment with your left eye is not going to all of a sudden cause the gun to start ejecting into your face. I'm cross dominant (right hand left eye) and do not have that problem.

1) Most modern large scale production guns are reliable and durable. There are exceptions of course. For the most part, if you buy from Sig, S&W, H&K, Para Ordnance, Springfield, Colt, etc etc (plenty more where that came from) you are going to get a decent gun ~90-95% of the time.

2) Polygonal rifling doesn't matter. It's nice and all but, don't base a gun purchase purely off that. At most it maybe accounts for MAYBE a 50fps improvement in velocity. Again, not a big deal, don't worry about it.

7) Trigger pull weight has nothing to do with accuracy. Pull the trigger properly and, provided you are aligning the sights properly, your shots will be accurate. Trigger pull simply makes it easier. Something in the 4.5-6.0lb range will get the job done. Much heavier than that and it can be harder for some people. At the same time, this doesn't mean that everyone necessarily needs match grade 2lb trigger pulls, and for many uses like self defense it actually could be a bad idea to have too light of a pull.

11) Bore axis is over rated. Your grip method has a lot to do with improving speed in follow up shots. I've seen some people shoot some relatively high bore axis guns incredibly fast because they were gripping the gun in just the right manner so as to make the gun recoil more rearward as opposed to muzzle flipping more vertical. Don't worry about this. Just don't get a Hi Point and you'll be fine. ;)


As far as the spent brass in the face goes, here's a thought. Could you possibly be limp wristing or just simply not quite controlling the recoil enough so you are getting pretty vertical muzzle flip? If so, if it's vertical enough this could possibly ease the rounds back in a rearward direction as they are ejecting.

wheelgunslinger
July 18, 2008, 11:59 AM
why not just find yourself a 45 cal Cougar on the used market?
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=105075580

strangelittleman
July 18, 2008, 12:15 PM
Yep, what wheelgunslinger said, or the Beretta PX4 in .45 auto.
I'm a big fan of the S&W 4566, 4516, check them out, or their aluminum framed equivalents on the used markets.
Or perhaps the new M&P45 or M&P45c.

Josh Aston
July 18, 2008, 12:20 PM
erratic ejection has nothing to do with the ejection port being enlarged upward. Extractor tension and ejector length, possibly the angle of the ejector face as well, play a role.

The ejection port on those pistols has to be enlarged upward so that the barrel can lock into it since it doesn't have locking lugs.

twofourthree73
July 18, 2008, 02:29 PM
As far as eye dominance, that's not an issue and that ~1-2" difference at most in gun alignment with your left eye is not going to all of a sudden cause the gun to start ejecting into your face. I'm cross dominant (right hand left eye) and do not have that problem.


I'm left eye dominate and shoot an HK UPS with my right hand. Never had a problem with brass in my face.

wheelgunslinger
July 18, 2008, 02:31 PM
I'm left eye dominate and shoot an HK UPS with my right hand

You can lift that whole truck with your right hand! awesome!!! :neener:

jfrey
July 18, 2008, 02:54 PM
Once had the same problem with brass in the face and it was easy to cure. I was shooting WWB ammo and switched to PMC, problem solved. The PMC seemed to be slightly hotter ammo which cycled the slide a little faster and threw the brass further away. Change ammo brands and see if that cures the problem.

sta500rdr
July 18, 2008, 03:40 PM
Im a big fan of the Baby Eagle .45 auto. Has a good feel to it, ambi safety/decock, nice rifling, reliable.... The .45 is not the most compact model that they make but I carry it fairly easily. It also definitely ejects to the right side. It throws the brass 25-30 feet away, which sometimes is a hassle since I try to reload and they are difficult to pick out of the grass.

I would suggest looking into them, it may suit your needs. They are considerably less expensive than some of the other options being suggested.

Jason_G
July 18, 2008, 04:25 PM
well has anyone had the same experience with hk and glock as i have?
Nope. I've never had one piece of brass hit me in the head (or at all for that matter)with either a USP45 or any Glock. The only brass I've ever had that's hit me with either of those was brass that ejected and hit the stall and bounced back over onto me.

Jason

zeeshan
July 18, 2008, 04:42 PM
The polygonal rifling requirement is the spoiler. That eliminates almost everything save Kahr, GLOCK, H.K., and Magnum Research. I personally like poly rifling too, but you mentioned you want it for increased accuracy? I wouldn't count on it for that. I like it in compacts and subs to make up for some of the velocity lost in short barrels, but in a full size pistol especially I'd recommend reconsidering conventional rifling just to open up your options (you'd have S&W, C.Z., Taurus, F.N.P., H.K., Ruger, are all availabe with a manual safety and traditional double action; also the X.D. and M&P are now available with a manual safety).

But O.K. if polygonal rifling is really less negotiable than excessive weight, and it must have a safety- then the Magnum Research Baby Eagle in .45 A.C.P. has polygonal rifling, D.A./S.A. with a safety/decocker... and weighs nearly 3lbs! THat's the danger of letting a rigid list of criteria determine a choice, you can sometimes miss the forest for the trees.

And zeeshan, are you certain you're not letting the GLOCK and H.K. torque in your grip a little? THe fact that brass in the face is happening with BOTH of those makes me wonder (are they both .45's just out of curiosity)? Because the U.S.P. is pretty much what best meets your criteria and I'd recommend it long before the B.E., J.M.O. and Y.M.M.V.

Hey if your COUGAR really is "perfectwell. i have hk usp compact 9mm and glock17.
by if you mean sights with N.S then i cant find any sights for my stoeger in my country(pakistan)

zeeshan
July 18, 2008, 05:05 PM
1. I'm still a relative amateur however, I've shot enough that I don't even think twice about the brass flying, don't blink or flinch or anything if it flies close to my head or actually hits me. As far as I'm concerned it's just not something to worry about
you will blink and flinch after one hot ejected shells hits you right in your eye or gets stuck between your glasses and eye. secondly,if you are in self defense situation and your own gun spits brass on your eyeball....think!
thirdly, even if it doesnt hit your eye ball but you know it can then again your gun will make you more nervous than the guy attacking you. think!

2.Polygonal rifling doesn't matter. It's nice and all but, don't base a gun purchase purely off that. At most it maybe accounts for MAYBE a 50fps improvement in velocity. Again, not a big deal, don't worry about it.



well, higher velocity = you can deal with person trying to kill you at longer distances. would you like to deal with your attacker at relatively closer distance? think!

3. As far as the spent brass in the face goes, here's a thought. Could you possibly be limp wristing or just simply not quite controlling the recoil enough so you are getting pretty vertical muzzle flip? If so, if it's vertical enough this could possibly ease the rounds back in a rearward direction as they are ejecting
well, please scroll up and read my thread"Currently i am using STOEGER COUGAR 9mm(it is same copy of Brettas COUGAR8000). I have fired nearly 7000 rounds from it without ant problem at all( I consider it as perfect gun except sights are not very good for fast acquistion of target). It has ejection port to the right only and not upwards like glock or hk etc, thatswhy the ejected carteridge never goes upwards and backwars on my face or torso"
anyways , i own cz and stoeger cougar too and if the problem was limp wristing or any other crap, one out of hundreds of rounds whcih i fired from them must have hit me.
secondly, cant you see any similarity between stoeger cougar+ cz 75(original) and hk usp compact + glock17? think!

zeeshan
July 18, 2008, 05:11 PM
why not just find yourself a 45 cal Cougar on the used market?
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIte...Item=105075580


well dear, i live in pakistan and cant get it shipped here. anyways, i cant find any new or used cougar in.45 cal in my country:(

zeeshan
July 18, 2008, 05:32 PM
The ejection port on those pistols has to be enlarged upward so that the barrel can lock into it since it doesn't have locking lugs.
can you please this. what are locking lugs? canyou recommend me any site where i can see the pics of locking lugs?

zeeshan
July 18, 2008, 05:34 PM
I'm left eye dominate and shoot an HK UPS with my right hand. Never had a problem with brass in my face

which exact model?
which calibre?

zeeshan
July 18, 2008, 05:38 PM
Once had the same problem with brass in the face and it was easy to cure. I was shooting WWB ammo and switched to PMC, problem solved. The PMC seemed to be slightly hotter ammo which cycled the slide a little faster and threw the brass further away. Change ammo brands and see if that cures the problem.

i really feel you are close. hotter the loads and lesser times glock's brass spitted on my face . with lesser grains it was 10 out of 50 and with higher grains , it was 10 out of 100. but does that mean glock is not suitable for less hotter loads or what?

Cougfan2
July 18, 2008, 05:47 PM
Springfield XDM might be right up your alley. Covers most of what you want.

twofourthree73
July 18, 2008, 06:16 PM
You can lift that whole truck with your right hand! awesome!!!

:p

USP compact 9mm.

Tom Fury
July 19, 2008, 11:48 AM
Gotta be your technique Zeeshan; if you're using that gangsta grip with the gun rotated left then it is throwing right, but not where you want it. Adjust your technique so the sights are on top.

Just kidding; thought I'd throw a little levity into the situation. I would be less than helpful as I mostly shoot 1911's; they are the only thing I've ever had that problem with; hotter ammo might be part of the solution, In a 1911, filing an angle on the ejector finger seems to encourage to throw right (Longer on the outside; angle is right to left, back to front).

Someone mentioned extractor tension?
What happens if you tighten up a bit?

Cheers, TF

Tom Fury
July 19, 2008, 11:52 AM
I have owned several Glocks, and have never had this problem; I am also RH/LE dominant. A Para P-12 once threw a case between my eye and my shooting glasses; THAT got my attention; Most of your requirements seem best met by a H&K
USP of some species; with the ejector/extractor set up they have, I don't think you'd have a problem. Have you shot one?
Cheers, TF

MICHAEL T
July 19, 2008, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Polygonal rifling doesn't matter. It's nice and all but, don't base a gun purchase purely off that. At most it maybe accounts for MAYBE a 50fps improvement in velocity. Again, not a big deal, don't worry about it.


well, higher velocity = you can deal with person trying to kill you at longer distances. would you like to deal with your attacker at relatively closer distance? think!



At pistol range this isn't even a point to consider Even at 50 or 60 yds a few FPS isn't that big of difference. More ad hype the real. Brass in face extractor and ejector problem. I am L/handed and have never been bothered by this problem with a proper extractor.

zeeshan
July 19, 2008, 05:14 PM
USP of some species; with the ejector/extractor set up they have, I don't think you'd have a problem. Have you shot one?


yes i shot hk usp 9mm compact and i threw about 10 out of 100 ejected shells at my head or torso. i shot 1000 rds all togather

CHEVELLE427
July 19, 2008, 05:14 PM
limp-wristing is the main reason on a desert eagle, i have four 45acp all different brands and none hit me in the face,
(come to think about it none of my auto's do)
my baby eagle 45 slings the brass a good 30 feet at my 04:00

zeeshan
July 19, 2008, 05:20 PM
i wish i could get baby eagle .45 auto in pakistan:(

CHEVELLE427
July 19, 2008, 05:23 PM
If you ever find one you will love it, FIT AND FEEL ARE GOOD. AND THEY SHOOT GREAT ALSO
I had a BE40 AND THE BE45, traded the 40 for a XDSUB COMPACT 40 AND KEPT THE BE45 , I JUST LIKE 45ACP........

Jason_G
July 19, 2008, 05:23 PM
Polygonal rifling:
At pistol range this isn't even a point to consider Even at 50 or 60 yds a few FPS isn't that big of difference. More ad hype the real.
Yep. I compared a USP45 (polygonal) and a Sig P220 (traditional) at 50 yds once, and there was no real difference in bullet drop or overall accuracy at that distance. The polygonal rifling might give a few more FPS, but it's a negligible amount of difference at pistol ranges, and even out to 50 yds from what I could tell. The only real benefit to the polygonal rifling is that it is a whole lot easier to clean.

limp-wristing
I'm thinking it has to be something along those lines as well. I've never had a problem with any Glocks or H&K's throwing brass on me. Ever.

Jason

zeeshan
July 19, 2008, 05:27 PM
I'm thinking it has to be something along those lines as well. I've never had a problem with any Glocks or H&K's throwing brass on me. Ever.



does this mean that i dont limp wrist with cz 9mm, stoeger cougar 9mm but i limp wrist with glock and hk?

CHEVELLE427
July 19, 2008, 05:41 PM
does this mean that i don't limp wrist with CZ 9 mm, stoeger cougar 9 mm but i limp wrist with Glock and hk?

I HAVE NOT SHOT THE CZ or the COUGAR, ONES I HAVE ARE.
XD45 TAC
XD40 SUB COM
BE45
TAURUS PT145
SW 10MM
DE 50
DE 44MAG
PF9
TITAN II 380

out of all them the eagle 50 has hit me maybe 1 out of 300 rounds
most of the 45's drop just to my rt, the 50 and the 44 go right over my head and land 10-12 feet in back.


AS YOU CAN SEE I DONT HAVE A GLOCK OR AN HK
so im not sure on how they react.

on the 50 it is recomended to use a push/pull grip.
RT HAND.
PUSH WITH THE RIGHT AND PULL BACK ON YOUR LEFT. ITS SAID THIS HELPS.

jlh26oo
July 20, 2008, 04:22 AM
does this mean that i dont limp wrist with cz 9mm, stoeger cougar 9mm but i limp wrist with glock and hk?

Not likely considering your GLOCK and U.S.P. are also in 9mm and are pretty soft shooters, but also not impossible. I have even had girls limp-wrist my GLOKC 34- not enough to malfunction, but torqued in their hands just enough to spit brass back at them. So anything's possible.

But no WAY would I give up on an H.K. or GLOCK for that problem. I'm not saying it's a non-issue, because if it's an issue for you then it's an issue, but I'd make sure I'd exhausted grip and every other possibility before dumping such high quality weapons. Otherwises I would say just stick with heavier pistols that are less likely to twist in a less than 100% grip- except that the ONLY thing I personally have ever had throw brass at my head was an extremely heavy pistol (Ruger P89), so apparently there's no predicting this stuff.

zeeshan
July 20, 2008, 05:05 AM
But no WAY would I give up on an H.K. or GLOCK for that problem. I'm not saying it's a non-issue, because if it's an issue for you then it's an issue, but I'd make sure I'd exhausted grip and every other possibility before dumping such high quality weapons

shot 2000 rounds each from , cz75(original), stoger cougar 9mm, hk usp compact, glock 17.

results are as follows:
stoeger cougar = not a single ejected brass hit my head or torso

cz75(original) = not a single ejected brass hit my head or torso

hk usp compact 9mm = 40 ejected shells hit my face and torso

glock17 = 100 ejected shells hit my face and torso

zeeshan
July 23, 2008, 04:00 AM
any analysis or comments on my last post?

Josh Aston
July 23, 2008, 01:02 PM
can you please this. what are locking lugs? canyou recommend me any site where i can see the pics of locking lugs?

In this animation you can see the locking lugs directly in front of the ejection port on a 1911. Browning P35 and a few other pistols use the same style of lugs.
http://www.m1911.org/images/searanimHR.gif

On Sigs, Glocks, etc. there are no locking lugs. Instead the chamber area of the barrel is enlarged to fit up into the ejection port. Most Beretta's use other forms of locking, such as a falling block on the 92 series and a rotating barrel on the cougar series.

zeeshan
July 23, 2008, 03:52 PM
In this animation you can see the locking lugs directly in front of the ejection port on a 1911. Browning P35 and a few other pistols use the same style of lugs.


On Sigs, Glocks, etc. there are no locking lugs. Instead the chamber area of the barrel is enlarged to fit up into the ejection port. Most Beretta's use other forms of locking, such as a falling block on the 92 series and a rotating barrel on the cougar series.
__________________
I'm from Texas, what country are you from?

can you please post same animation for hk or glock?is new ejector of para better?

elChupacabra!
July 23, 2008, 04:18 PM
It's not the guns. I shoot an HK P2000 in .40 S&W, very similar to the USP Compact, and I'm left handed / left eye dominant, with no problems.

Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people in the world shoot each of the guns you describe with no sign of the problems you are encountering.

The problem is you.

The Glock has a very different grip angle that you may not be adapting to properly. Who knows what the problem with the HK is, but it has nothing to do with the geometry of the ejection port - the brass is kicked out the side by the ejector according to the tension applied by the extractor. If it's coming back at you, take the gun to a smith and ask them to inspect the extractor & ejector. Do the same with the Glock if you are insistent on finding a hardware problem, but chances are its your grip.

Try the Modern Isosceles stance, which might help you stop limp-wristing the gun, if you go to the smith and they say they can't do anything for you... because if they say that, you are 100% guaranteed it's your technique that's causing the problems.

Also, A laundry list of features you require on a gun won't account for poor technique, and won't make you any more survivable in a real-life situation.

Go for a gun that you can shoot properly, accurately, rapidly. In my opinion, your priorities are a little out of line in what makes a good defensive gun. Rather than polygonal barrel / safety / decocker / ejection port size, focus on a trigger that is easy to operate accurately and rapidly under stress; focus on a grip angle / size that is ergonomic and feels natural to you; etc.

I made the mistake of buying guns based on what I THOUGHT was important, when they weren't. What's important is getting solid hits fast. Anything that doesn't do that is completely irrelevant.

EDITED: As an example, I bought my first gun (aforementioned HK P2000) based on caliber, action (LEM), size (semi-compact), thinking it would be the ultimate defensive pistol. Now don't get me wrong, I love the gun, recommend it to everyone, and do carry it. I've trained with it and adapted to it and appreciate some of the EXTRA features it offers, like polygonal barrel, the speed of the LEM trigger without any safeties, etc. It does have alot going for it as a gun with a very ergonomic (to me) grip, low bore axis, etc. But as I shot more and more I realized that I was being somewhat limited by the more important factors of the gun - the caliber was a little more than I needed for my first gun, and the trigger is downright awful for fast, accurate shooting. My 2 combat handgungun purchases since have been a 9mm SIGPRO SP2022 and a 1911 in 45ACP. I finally got the 1911 because I realized that, to shoot VERY fast and accurately, I needed a GOOD single-action trigger, ergonomics and low bore axis (the SIGPRO was a step along my evolution to the final resting place in the 1911 - an improvement in some areas, but not all, and a step back in some. The 1911 really is ultimate). The weight, magazine capacity, and external safeties are all superfluous and can be adapted to; but it's alot more difficult to adapt to BAD critical features, like trigger, ergonomics, etc. FWIW

Josh Aston
July 23, 2008, 04:28 PM
Can't find a .gif animation of a Glock, but here's a link to a flash animation

Glock Animation (http://www.sniperworld.com/content.aspx?ckey=Sniper_World_Glock_Index)

Put your cursor over the parts list and they become transparent in the picture. Put the cursor on barrel and you can see how the enlarged chamber area locks into the ejection port.

Here's one for the Beretta 92 series.

Beretta Animation (http://www.genitron.com/IntPistol.html)

In the Beretta the barrel doesn't tilt like it does in Browning inspired designs (1911, P35, Sig, Glock, etc.) The locking block that is below the barrel drops down to unlock the barrel from the slide.

elChupacabra!
July 23, 2008, 04:35 PM
Ha, HERE's how a GLOCK works!!!

http://bersatalk.com/forums/thread/84743.aspx

:eek::D:neener::

tblt
July 23, 2008, 06:03 PM
look at the new XD M you can get it with or without the safety

TNT.45
July 24, 2008, 01:08 AM
Shot a Kimber and it will make up your mind for you...

gtmtnbiker98
July 24, 2008, 09:30 AM
Sig P220 Carry, although it has traditional rifling. The only poly rifling that I'm aware of is produced by Glock and Kahr.

Jason_G
July 24, 2008, 11:53 AM
does this mean that i dont limp wrist with cz 9mm, stoeger cougar 9mm but i limp wrist with glock and hk?

It's very possible. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that some folks who are unaccustomed to the Glocks or USP's deal with the grip angle of the Glock and the larger grip circumference of the USP in ways that promote limp wristing. I think it's far more likely than it being the guns themselves, as you've gotten two that spit brass at you, and I've never heard of anyone having that problem with either of those pistols. I'm not saying for sure that it's your grip, as I haven't seen you shoot, but the information leads me to believe it's got to be technique related. A good way to tell is to have someone with experience watch (or have anyone video tape) your hands while you shoot.

Jason

zeeshan
July 25, 2008, 01:43 AM
Senior Member



Join Date: 05-29-08
Location: Franklin, TN
Posts: 104 It's not the guns. I shoot an HK P2000 in .40 S&W, very similar to the USP Compact, and I'm left handed / left eye dominant, with no problems.

Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people in the world shoot each of the guns you describe with no sign of the problems you are encountering.

The problem is you.

The Glock has a very different grip angle that you may not be adapting to properly. Who knows what the problem with the HK is, but it has nothing to do with the geometry of the ejection port - the brass is kicked out the side by the ejector according to the tension applied by the extractor. If it's coming back at you, take the gun to a smith and ask them to inspect the extractor & ejector. Do the same with the Glock if you are insistent on finding a hardware problem, but chances are its your grip.

Try the Modern Isosceles stance, which might help you stop limp-wristing the gun, if you go to the smith and they say they can't do anything for you... because if they say that, you are 100% guaranteed it's your technique that's causing the problems.

Also, A laundry list of features you require on a gun won't account for poor technique, and won't make you any more survivable in a real-life situation.

Go for a gun that you can shoot properly, accurately, rapidly. In my opinion, your priorities are a little out of line in what makes a good defensive gun. Rather than polygonal barrel / safety / decocker / ejection port size, focus on a trigger that is easy to operate accurately and rapidly under stress; focus on a grip angle / size that is ergonomic and feels natural to you; etc.

I made the mistake of buying guns based on what I THOUGHT was important, when they weren't. What's important is getting solid hits fast. Anything that doesn't do that is completely irrelevant.

EDITED: As an example, I bought my first gun (aforementioned HK P2000) based on caliber, action (LEM), size (semi-compact), thinking it would be the ultimate defensive pistol. Now don't get me wrong, I love the gun, recommend it to everyone, and do carry it. I've trained with it and adapted to it and appreciate some of the EXTRA features it offers, like polygonal barrel, the speed of the LEM trigger without any safeties, etc. It does have alot going for it as a gun with a very ergonomic (to me) grip, low bore axis, etc. But as I shot more and more I realized that I was being somewhat limited by the more important factors of the gun - the caliber was a little more than I needed for my first gun, and the trigger is downright awful for fast, accurate shooting. My 2 combat handgungun purchases since have been a 9mm SIGPRO SP2022 and a 1911 in 45ACP. I finally got the 1911 because I realized that, to shoot VERY fast and accurately, I needed a GOOD single-action trigger, ergonomics and low bore axis (the SIGPRO was a step along my evolution to the final resting place in the 1911 - an improvement in some areas, but not all, and a step back in some. The 1911 really is ultimate). The weight, magazine capacity, and external safeties are all superfluous and can be adapted to; but it's alot more difficult to adapt to BAD critical features, like trigger, ergonomics, etc. FWIW
sir what do think about para LDA handguns? i think para LDA is ultimate but cant decide , which model is best ?

secondly, please do tellme which manufacturer and its handgun model in 1911 is ultimate ?

elChupacabra!
July 25, 2008, 10:13 AM
Zeeshan,

I haven't personally shot a Para LDA pistol, but I understand that the trigger mechanism is very similar to the HK LEM trigger in that it is a true double-action trigger with the mainspring pre-tensioned by the action of the slide, which makes the actual trigger pull itself much lighter than a traditional DAO trigger pull. As I mentioned earlier, my first handgun, the HK P2000, does have the LEM trigger, and based on my experiences with it, I don't think I'd recommend it to someone who wants to be a very serious shooter.

The reason is that, although it's one of the best DAO triggers out there, the world's very best DAO triggers will never stack up against even a marginal single action trigger. I know the difference between 4 lbs and 7.5 lbs may not sound like much, but believe me - it makes a difference, especially considering how short a 1911's trigger travel is compared to a DAO trigger.

Now the LEM / LDA trigger does have some advantages in that it allows you to carry a hammer-down, immediately accessible (i.e. no manual safety to disengage) handgun, which may make many feel more comfortable carrying it. That is the exact reason I chose the HK P2000 in LEM - I wanted to be able to draw the gun and press the trigger and not have to do anything else for the gun to discharge, but still have a safe gun while in the holster. The LEM / LDA trigger excels at that, but unfortunately, that is where the excellence ends.

Once you start shooting that gun consistently, if you are like me, you will see that your shooting ability is limited by the rather heavy and VERY long trigger. That's why I have come to the 1911 as the best handgun - probably more than anything else, for the trigger, as it's trigger is unmatched in other combat handgun designs.

Now one concern with the SA 1911 is that there is a manual safety that has to be flipped off, which you might be afraid of forgetting to flip off (I know I was!). The truth is, however, that adapting to that safety is just a matter of training, and it can be adapted to very quickly - suprisingly quickly. If you are using the "IDPA grip" which is an Isosceles stance with a very high grip on the gun, both thumbs pointing at the target, then, on a 1911, your strong thumb NATURALLY falls on top of that safety and in fact rides it the whole time you're shooting, which helps keep it down and from accidentally engaging during shooting. That means that all you have to do to adapt to the safety is get in the habit of, when you draw your weapon and establish your grip, put your thumb up where it goes anyway and press down, and as you draw that weapon and push it out in front of you, the safety goes off automatically. At that point, you have a gun that is MUCH more SHOOTABLE than anyhting with any DAO trigger, even an LEM / LDA trigger. That's why I advocate the traditional, single action 1911.

As far as manufacture goes, Para has a good reputation, though I would stay away from the high-cap mags. I think that the slim profile of a single-stack 1911 aids greatly in controlling the weapon, as it fits more naturally in your hands (for me at least, I don't have huge hands) and conceals much more easily. I think a double-stack 1911 is a bit much. Also, as far as magazine capacity, I think you will find, as I have, that the increase in controllability, speed, confidence and accuracy you will get from switching to the 1911 platform will make you very comfortable with 7 or 8 rounds of 45ACP. If I couldn't shoot it as well, I might like more rounds... but that gun just feels so good to shoot, I really do believe that 8 rounds is enough per mag.

Finally, regarding the best manufacture, again Para has a very good reputation, but for ULTIMATE I would look at Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Nighthawk Custom, or Les Baer if you've got the $1500-$3500 their guns cost. Springfield has a good reputation, though I would stay away from Taurus - I bought into the Taurus marketing and deeply regret it. I've spent enough on replacement parts and gunsmithing to turn it into a REALLY good gun that I could have just gone with a Springfield Loaded to begin with, though I didn't know that at the time I bought it.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, but I hope you find it helpful.

Bushwhacker
July 25, 2008, 10:25 AM
Try the S&W CS 45ACP

Here's a link to it;

http://tiny.pl/2d9z

If you can find one.....:banghead:


I've been looking for a used one for 5 years at a decent price......:cuss:

zeeshan
July 25, 2008, 01:56 PM
Zeeshan,

I haven't personally shot a Para LDA pistol, but I understand that the trigger mechanism is very similar to the HK LEM trigger in that it is a true double-action trigger with the mainspring pre-tensioned by the action of the slide, which makes the actual trigger pull itself much lighter than a traditional DAO trigger pull. As I mentioned earlier, my first handgun, the HK P2000, does have the LEM trigger, and based on my experiences with it, I don't think I'd recommend it to someone who wants to be a very serious shooter.

The reason is that, although it's one of the best DAO triggers out there, the world's very best DAO triggers will never stack up against even a marginal single action trigger. I know the difference between 4 lbs and 7.5 lbs may not sound like much, but believe me - it makes a difference, especially considering how short a 1911's trigger travel is compared to a DAO trigger.

Now the LEM / LDA trigger does have some advantages in that it allows you to carry a hammer-down, immediately accessible (i.e. no manual safety to disengage) handgun, which may make many feel more comfortable carrying it. That is the exact reason I chose the HK P2000 in LEM - I wanted to be able to draw the gun and press the trigger and not have to do anything else for the gun to discharge, but still have a safe gun while in the holster. The LEM / LDA trigger excels at that, but unfortunately, that is where the excellence ends.

Once you start shooting that gun consistently, if you are like me, you will see that your shooting ability is limited by the rather heavy and VERY long trigger. That's why I have come to the 1911 as the best handgun - probably more than anything else, for the trigger, as it's trigger is unmatched in other combat handgun designs.

Now one concern with the SA 1911 is that there is a manual safety that has to be flipped off, which you might be afraid of forgetting to flip off (I know I was!). The truth is, however, that adapting to that safety is just a matter of training, and it can be adapted to very quickly - suprisingly quickly. If you are using the "IDPA grip" which is an Isosceles stance with a very high grip on the gun, both thumbs pointing at the target, then, on a 1911, your strong thumb NATURALLY falls on top of that safety and in fact rides it the whole time you're shooting, which helps keep it down and from accidentally engaging during shooting. That means that all you have to do to adapt to the safety is get in the habit of, when you draw your weapon and establish your grip, put your thumb up where it goes anyway and press down, and as you draw that weapon and push it out in front of you, the safety goes off automatically. At that point, you have a gun that is MUCH more SHOOTABLE than anyhting with any DAO trigger, even an LEM / LDA trigger. That's why I advocate the traditional, single action 1911.

As far as manufacture goes, Para has a good reputation, though I would stay away from the high-cap mags. I think that the slim profile of a single-stack 1911 aids greatly in controlling the weapon, as it fits more naturally in your hands (for me at least, I don't have huge hands) and conceals much more easily. I think a double-stack 1911 is a bit much. Also, as far as magazine capacity, I think you will find, as I have, that the increase in controllability, speed, confidence and accuracy you will get from switching to the 1911 platform will make you very comfortable with 7 or 8 rounds of 45ACP. If I couldn't shoot it as well, I might like more rounds... but that gun just feels so good to shoot, I really do believe that 8 rounds is enough per mag.

Finally, regarding the best manufacture, again Para has a very good reputation, but for ULTIMATE I would look at Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Nighthawk Custom, or Les Baer if you've got the $1500-$3500 their guns cost. Springfield has a good reputation, though I would stay away from Taurus - I bought into the Taurus marketing and deeply regret it. I've spent enough on replacement parts and gunsmithing to turn it into a REALLY good gun that I could have just gone with a Springfield Loaded to begin with, though I didn't know that at the time I bought it.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, but I hope you find it helpful.


thank you very much sir. from your post i feel like that you are as serious and real self defence conscious person as i am. unfortunately, we live oceans apart. there is nothing better than the experienced buddy:)

sir, u have provided the list but would you be kind enough to just shorten the list to top 5 or 6 ultimate guns?(specific manufacturer and model respectively)?

elChupacabra!
July 25, 2008, 02:31 PM
Zeeshan,

Well, I'm glad you find my suggestions helpful, though I don't claim to be any sort of expert. I'm not a LEO / military / operator, just a private citizen with a mind to personal protection and an enjoyment of effective and efficient weapons. So, all this is to say that, while I'm happy to offer my suggestions, remember that I'm not a total expert... with that said, I would probably list the "best" 1911s to be (in no particular order, and based on general consensus):

Wilson Combat CQB - $2,100 - $2,300
Nighthawk Custom Talon - $2,200 - $2,500
Ed Brown Kobra Carry - $2,200 - $2,300
Les Baer Thunder Ranch - $1,600 - 1,800

*EDITED* - Although I don't think this gun is quite in the class as the above semi-custom guns, the Springfield Operator, at $1,000-$1,200 seems to have a good reputation too, at a somewhat lower cost, and maybe lower quality, accordingly. Still, it may belong on the list of the best 1911s. Just FYI.

Again, I've never shot any of these guns and have only seen them through the window of a gun case at a gun store... but I think most people out there trying to identify their idea of a PERFECT 1911 could probably find one on this list somewhere. Of course, each of these companies makes a wide array of different 1911 variants - these are pretty much their standard, 5", full-feature guns, though each company offers more and less expensive versions too.

If there are others that I'm not thinking of, somebody please chime in and let me know.

I hope this helps.

zeeshan
July 26, 2008, 12:06 AM
please the experienced and very serious shooters may add to the list of ultimate handguns in 1911 out of there knowledge and experience.(it would be more help full that if you recommend one gun only with its manufacturer name and specific model repectively).

slightly compact models will be more appreciated.
thanks

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