Black powder is a felony


PDA






Zoogster
July 17, 2008, 08:27 PM
I have seen many people here from CA talk about possessing more than one pound of black powder, or purchasing in bulk or creating thier own. You can only legaly have one pound of black powder without a license.

I wanted to insure everyone from the the great :rolleyes: state of CA knows that possessing more than 1 pound of black powder subjects them to felony punishments.
This is in California's
HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE
SECTION 12101

It is too long to post in its entirity, but essentialy it is possession or storage of an illegal explosive without permits to have more than 1 pound of black powder or more than 20 pounds of smokeless powder as a private individual.

The exception that applies to shooters is section 12102 of the Health and Safety Code:
"12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
sporting powder, provided that:
(a) Smokeless powder is intended only for hand loading of small
arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(b) Black sporting powder is intended for loading of small arms or
small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
or other disposition to another person.
(d) The storage, use and handling of such smokeless and black
powder conforms to rules, regulations, or ordinances of authorities
having jurisdiction for fire prevention and suppression in the area
of such storage, use, and handling of such explosives."



Here is the code that outlaws it except under the above exemption of 1 pound:
12101. (a) No person shall do any one of the following without
first having made application for and received a permit in accordance
with this section:
(1) Manufacture explosives.
(2) Sell, furnish, or give away explosives.
(3) Receive, store, or possess explosives.
(4) Transport explosives.
(5) Use explosives.
(6) Operate a terminal for handling explosives.
(7) Park or leave standing any vehicle carrying explosives, except
when parked or left standing in or at a safe stopping place
designated as such by the Department of the California Highway Patrol
under Division 14 (commencing with Section 31600) of the Vehicle
Code."

If you enjoyed reading about "Black powder is a felony" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
theotherwaldo
July 17, 2008, 08:42 PM
-Yet another reason why I'll never return to California.

whosyrdaddy
July 17, 2008, 10:04 PM
I wonder which category the subs fall into? Technically they aren't smokeless, nor are they an explosive under the strictest of definitions. Could it be that they fall outside of the purview of the statute?

Voodoochile
July 17, 2008, 10:11 PM
I agree, I will not go to that Communist state unless I'm passing through to Hawaii or something.

arcticap
July 17, 2008, 10:17 PM
Question: Hey Joe, can I try some of that new BP you're using?

Answer: Sure, here's a pre-loader full for you to try.

Police Dispatcher: 1 Adam 12, 1 Adam 12, felony gifting of black powder in progress at the municiple shooting range...suspects are armed and loaded for bear!

What a double yolk! :neener:

alemonkey
July 17, 2008, 10:27 PM
God, I hate California.

Seafarer12
July 17, 2008, 10:51 PM
Isn't federal law 50 pounds.

taprackbang
July 17, 2008, 10:52 PM
Lived in Cali for two years. Could not wait to escape and get back to Texas.
BUT a way around this is to disobey their STUPID law or put a pound of powder at each friend's house. I highly doubt someone would come to your house and investigate. I am willing to bet that if we all read the obscure, absurd laws in all of our state codes combined we would prob all be breaking state laws.

"When is enough ENOUGH?"

"Have you 'Googled' Ron Paul yet?"

TAB
July 17, 2008, 10:53 PM
I'm reading that chapter right now and I can not find where it said the word felony. it does use misdemeanor for anyone selling said products.( 12102.1 e)


http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=12001-13000&file=12101-12112


but nice try at bashing CA.

MCgunner
July 17, 2008, 11:06 PM
Is this a legal lecture or a reason to kick ********** out of the union?????

Lived in Cali for two years. Could not wait to escape and get back to Texas.
BUT a way around this is to disobey their STUPID law or put a pound of powder at each friend's house. I highly doubt someone would come to your house and investigate. I am willing to bet that if we all read the obscure, absurd laws in all of our state codes combined we would prob all be breaking state laws.


I need to go back and re-read Heston's speech on civil disobedience. Yes, some laws are written to be ignored. :rolleyes:

Zoogster
July 17, 2008, 11:22 PM
Possession of quantities exceeding one pound of black powder is a felony with fines of $5,000 and possible jail time.

You have to do a little work to find the punishment section it is there though, maybe if I feel nice I will dig it up yet again to help people like TAB out.

Here is a guy that will represent you for it though TAB since you seem to want to disbelieve:

http://www.gunlaw.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=28

They even list the offense on thier website on that page.

Here you go:
Health and Safety Code

12303. "Lawful possession of an explosive," as used in this
chapter, means possessing explosives in accordance with the stated
purpose and conditions of a valid permit obtained pursuant to the
provisions of this part, unless such person is specifically excepted
from the permit requirements by the provisions of this part.




12305. Every person not in the lawful possession of an explosive
who knowingly has any explosive in his possession is guilty of a
felony.

If you have more than one pound of black powder in your possession you do not possess the explosive legaly without a permit.

Here is the definition of explosive

"12000. For the purposes of this part, "explosives" means any
substance, or combination of substances, the primary or common
purpose of which is detonation or rapid combustion, and which is
capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and
heat, or any substance, the primary purpose of which, when combined
with others, is to form a substance capable of a relatively
instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat. "Explosives"
includes, but is not limited to, any explosives as defined in Section
841 of Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to
Section 555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and
any of the following:
(a) Dynamite, nitroglycerine, picric acid, lead azide, fulminate
of mercury, black powder, smokeless powder, propellant explosives,
detonating primers, blasting caps, or commercial boosters.
(b) Substances determined to be division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, or 1.6
explosives as classified by the United States Department of
Transportation.
(c) Nitro carbo nitrate substances (blasting agent) classified as
division 1.5 explosives by the United States Department of
Transportation.
(d) Any material designated as an explosive by the State Fire
Marshal. The designation shall be made pursuant to the
classification standards established by the United States Department
of Transportation. The State Fire Marshal shall adopt regulations in
accordance with the Government Code to establish procedures for the
classification and designation of explosive materials or explosive
devices that are not under the jurisdiction of the United States
Department of Transportation pursuant to provisions of Section 841 of
Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to Section
555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that define
explosives.
(e) Certain division 1.4 explosives as designated by the United
States Department of Transportation when listed in regulations
adopted by the State Fire Marshal."

TAB
July 17, 2008, 11:27 PM
why don't you show me on a Ca.gov site... or just give me the law number...


even if you read your link it says

OVER 20 POUNDS OF SMOKELESS GUNPOWDER OR
MORE THAN ONE POUND OF BLACK POWDER.

Even if intended for use in sporting firearms, California provides felony penalties for possessing more than the stated amounts of gunpowder without special permits.




no where does it say it is a felony, just that it can be.

so please site the cvc chs etc that says its a felony.

.38 Special
July 17, 2008, 11:31 PM
Ignoring the usual mindless blather about "communism" etc., I wonder if anyone has ever been prosecuted for this? I also note that it would appear to be illegal to load for a larger than .75 caliber gun. That would seem to make felons out of the folks (all five of us) shooting eight and four bore muzzleloaders....

Zoogster
July 17, 2008, 11:36 PM
or just give me the law number

Health and Safety Code
12305. Every person not in the lawful possession of an explosive
who knowingly has any explosive in his possession is guilty of a
felony.

The entire 12000's deal with explosives.

TAB
July 17, 2008, 11:40 PM
12001. This part does not apply to any of the following:
(a) Any person engaged in the transportation of explosives
regulated by, and when subject to, the provisions of Division 14
(commencing with Section 31600) of the Vehicle Code.
(b) Small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less when designated
as a division 1.4 explosive by the United States Department of
Transportation.
(c) Fireworks regulated under Part 2 (commencing with Section
12500) of this division, including, but not limited to, special
effects pyrotechnics regulated by the State Fire Marshal pursuant to
Section 12555.
(d) Any explosives while in the course of transportation via
railroad, aircraft, water, or highway when the explosives are in
actual movement and under the jurisdiction of and in conformity with
regulations adopted by the United States Department of
Transportation, United States Coast Guard, or the Federal Aviation
Agency. However, no explosives shall be sold, given away, or
delivered except as provided in Section 12120.
(e) Special fireworks classified by the United States Department
of Transportation as division 1.3 explosives when those special
fireworks are regulated under Part 2 (commencing with Section 12500)
of this division, when a permit has been issued pursuant to
regulations of the State Fire Marshal.
(f) (1) Black powder in quantities of 25 pounds or less in the
hands of a retailer having a permit issued under Article 2
(commencing with Section 6066) of Chapter 2 of Part 1 of Division 2
of the Revenue and Taxation Code and in quantities of five pounds or
less in the hands of all others and smokeless powder in quantities of
20 pounds or less used, possessed, stored, sold, or transported that
is exempted under, or authorized by, the Federal Organized Crime
Control Act of 1970 (Public Law 91-452) and applicable federal
regulations thereunder.



read section f.... seems like all others can have up to 5 lbs...

I think you need to read the entire section rather then just parts...

becuase you miss parts like this

12400. Except as provided in Chapter 7 (commencing with Section
12302), Part 1, Division 11 of the Health and Safety Code, every
person who violates any provision of this part, or violates any
regulation adopted by the State Fire Marshal pursuant to this part,
is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of not more than one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment for not more than six
months, or by both such fine and imprisonment.



12401. Every person who is found guilty of a felony as specified in
this part is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison, or in a
county jail not exceeding one year, or by fine not exceeding ten
thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment

Zoogster
July 17, 2008, 11:45 PM
That is for licensed people TAB. They have different licenses wich can have differing amounts of black powder.

You however cannot have more than one pound without a license.

That is why I did not include section f because I knew it would confuse you.

The misdemeanor provision applies to certain storage provisions and people that violate extra ordinances established by the fire marshall.

Certain things specified are a felony. Such as possession of more than one pound of black powder without a permit.

It can be a little confusing because there is provisions regarding people licensed for use with fireworks etc, and the punishments for people with certain licenses can be different if they violate a section. For them there is both misdemeanor violations and felony violations.
But we are not talking about licensed people here.
We are talking about people without a license possessing more than 1 pound of black powder.
A felony.

TAB
July 18, 2008, 12:18 AM
section 6066 has nothing to do with explosives...

so there are 2 conflicting sections...

Zoogster
July 18, 2008, 12:41 AM
section 6066 has nothing to do with explosives...

so there are 2 conflicting sections...

It does, it refers to permits required for business within the state, in this case a business that has the permits to conduct a business that involves such items.

It is not conflicting it just takes some time.

That is why people go to school for it, then only specialize in certain areas of CA law.

That is why I tried to do you the favor of skipping that part, it can be confusing and is totaly unrelated.

There is various violations of the law. Certian amounts can trigger multiple violations of different sections resulting in multiple seperate felonies. Some amounts only trigger one section.

Yes it can be quite confusing if you are not used to pouring through CA code.

Think of it like this, parts of the penal code outlaw certain types of firearms, some firearms only violate one section of the law, yet some others can violate multiple sections of the law. However the one that violates fewer sections is still not legal, it just violates fewer sections.

TAB
July 18, 2008, 12:56 AM
Its debatable, all bets are off if there is case law on the matter.

Whats intresting is chances are extremly high that anyone that owns a flint lock would be a felon. ( I actually know a fire cheif right now that would be a felon...)

Zoogster
July 18, 2008, 12:59 AM
Whats intresting is chances are extremly high that anyone that owns a flint lock would be a felon

Which is exactly why I wanted to bring it to everyone's attention. Many black powder shooters have more than one pound of black powder, especialy if they do much shooting as that can be burned through fairly quickly as black powder is loaded in fairly large quantities in many loadings.

They are all subject to felony arrest. Obviously someone has to learn they are breaking the law, but if for example they let an officer in thier home without knowing, officers had a legal search warrant, or they brought more than a pound to the range with them, or were stopped with over a pound in thier vehicle they could be arrested and charged with a felony.

They are technicaly felons, and if caught could be charged and stripped of thier right to own a firearm.
They would not likely recieve any jail time for innocent use with firearms, but they would become a felon and would be breaking the law.
1 pound or less unless you have special permits.

These are the types of things, and there is thousands in CA law that they say to never consent to a search for. There is many many things you do not know are illegal. Many people all over the state are commiting various crimes on a regular basis without any malicious intent on a number of codes. Many of them felonies.
There is some very crazy laws many felonies, others misdemeanors.



Here is a funny one I like showing, it being illegal to shine a light where animals live if you have a firearm that could kill that animal even if you do not kill or shoot at the animal, even if you are not hunting or engaged in such activites in any way:

"(b) It is unlawful for any person, or one or more persons, to
throw or cast the rays of any spotlight, headlight, or other
artificial light on any highway or in any field, woodland, or forest
where game mammals, fur-bearing mammals, or nongame mammals are
commonly found, or upon any game mammal, fur-bearing mammal, or
nongame mammal, while having in his or her possession or under his or
her control any firearm or weapon with which that mammal could be
killed, even though the mammal is not killed, injured, shot at, or
otherwise pursued."

It includes all flashlights unless they are under 3 volts, and even flashlights under 3 volts if they are attached to a weapon:


"d) The provisions of this section do not apply to any of the
following:
(1) The use of a hand-held flashlight no larger, nor emitting more
light, than a two-cell, three-volt flashlight, provided that light
is not affixed in any way to a weapon, or to the use of a lamp or
lantern that does not cast a directional beam of light."


People break this law all the time, especialy while camping if they have a firearm for protection. Just heading away from camp to use the bathroom in the woods and using a flashlight that is powered by more than 3 volts if you have a firearm on you is illegal. The same is true at your camp sight if you have a firearm on you and shine a stronger light into the woods to look around.

Essentialy it is illegal to have a firearm and a flashlight over 3 volts at the same time in the woods. Hilarious isn't it?
Obviously the intent is to prevent poaching and certain types of hunting, but the law does not specify that and outlaws that activity at all times, even if no harm or even attempted harm to any animal is commited or planned.

arcticap
July 18, 2008, 01:33 AM
Police Dispatcher: 1 Adam 12, 1 Adam 12, a parked car has its headlights pointing into a field known to be frequented by wild mammals...code blue, code blue..may be armed with....cameras!

Does the law mean headlights or helmet lights?...it doesn't matter! :neener:

mykeal
July 18, 2008, 09:11 AM
Whats intresting is chances are extremly high that anyone that owns a flint lock would be a felon
Which is exactly why I wanted to bring it to everyone's attention...They are all subject to felony arrest...They are technicaly felons, and if caught could be charged and stripped of thier right to own a firearm.

So, Zoogster, the reason you posted this drivel is because you want everyone in CA who possesses more than a pound of black powder to know that, in your opinion, they are committing a felony. Do I have that right?

What is it that you expect them to do with that shocking revelation? Immediately throw away all their excess powder? March on Sacramento demanding the laws be changed? Move to Ohio?

It's apparent that you are not a lawyer or judge, or you would have cited case law to demonstrate that the state was enforcing the language as you have interpreted it. I suspect there are no such citations, however.

I suggest, if you're serious about this, that you do the following, in order:
1) Decide just what it is you want people to do with this knowledge, and then say so.
2) Provide examples in case law showing how the language is enforced and what the 'danger' to the public good is as a result of that enforcement.

In the mean time, thanks for the fascinating trip through yet another example of why the left coast is leading the way to Perdition. As if we needed reminding.

sundance44s
July 18, 2008, 09:35 AM
Man thats terrible / here in MS. I can have 25 lbs ( which I always do ) with out a permit ...I can have 50 lbs with a permit .
Buying one lb at a time would be expencive .

Smokin_Gun
July 18, 2008, 02:49 PM
Sundance I can go right now and buy to or 5 lbsof BP in cans with out being arrested for a felony offense...also can order with hazmat fee all I can afford.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The rest a this is for you'all that need to read it!

I get real sick and tired of people raggin' on CA and don't live here. Ya'lall ain;t got a clue...and them that left, good on ya hope you're happy with Steer pies and armadillos or where ever else anyone ended up.

Those laws have not to do with the sale of or personal shootin' use of Black Powder. Or I'd br typing from San Quintan or the Men's Penal Colony down San Diego way right now. Been pulled over and talked guns on the dang Freeway inthe middle of the wee hours of mornin' with 3 one pound cans a flask and a Powder horn full a BP drivin' 90 MPH...

So talk and project your minds into topics that mean nothin' to you and alot to me... I can move too I don't need any a this crap.

SMOKIN' GUN

I've been here a long time I guess too long:neener:

sundance44s
July 18, 2008, 03:00 PM
Smokin ...always good to hear the truth of it ......I know alot of folks out there shoot alot of black powder ..It just wouldn`t make good sence to buy one lb at a time ...
Heck if I buy one lb of Goex in a store here ...it`s 28 bucks a lb .
I buy by the case of 25 lbs it`s 10 bucks a lb ..to my front door FED EX.
Nothin beats real life experiences ...where ya on your bike ...LOL :D

Smokin_Gun
July 18, 2008, 03:08 PM
LOL...no Sundance but I do have a story for ya at another time and place...about on a Bike.

SG

ArmedBear
July 18, 2008, 03:33 PM
Anyone know how this applies to Pyrodex, et al.?

Is Pyrodex considered Black Powder or Smokeless Powder, for this purpose?

(Of course, it's actually neither.)

arcticap
July 18, 2008, 04:23 PM
Pyrodex is not considered to be an explosive, like smokeless it's only a hazardous flammable.

Zoogster
July 18, 2008, 05:18 PM
Sundance I can go right now and buy to or 5 lbsof BP in cans with out being arrested for a felony offense...also can order with hazmat fee all I can afford.
Yes you can purchase it, and people will send it to you, that does not make your actions legal.
The 5 pound amount applies to Health and Safety Code 12000 as an exemption.

The one pound legal limit is the exemption to 12101 which requires a permit to be in possession of more than 1 pound for use in shooting as a private individual.


So you can be in violation of section 12101 without being in violation of just 12000.

You can order all you want with the Hazmat fee, but it is still illegal. The shipper is just following federal law. You can still be breaking multiple CA laws.
I don't see your point.

Seperate laws with seperate criteria. Yes CA law is very complex and many people, even some businesses get it wrong unless corrected.

What you can physicaly do and what the law is according to statute are different.
You can break the law and get away with it.

Pyrodex is not considered to be an explosive, like smokeless it's only a hazardous flammable.
By federal law that is correct.
Under CA law black powder substitutes can qualify as explosives.

For example in the Health and Safety Code section 12000 (since it is already in this thread)
For the purposes of this part, "explosives" means any
substance, or combination of substances, the primary or common
purpose of which is detonation or rapid combustion, and which is
capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and
heat, or any substance, the primary purpose of which, when combined
with others, is to form a substance capable of a relatively
instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat. "Explosives"
includes, but is not limited to, any explosives as defined in Section
841 of Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to
Section 555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and
any of the following:

Clearly the 'primary or common use' of a black powder substitute is as an explosive as defined here.


Also worth noting:

12020. The chief and the issuing authority, as defined in Sections
12003 and 12007, respectively, shall in their areas of jurisdiction
enforce the provisions of this part and the regulations adopted by
the State Fire Marshal pursuant to this part.
Any peace officer, as defined in Sections 830.1, 830.2, and
subdivisions (a), (e), (k), and (l) of Section 830.3 of the Penal
Code, and those officers listed in Section 830.6 of the Penal Code
while acting in the course and scope of their employment as peace
officers may enforce the provisions of this part.

They do not have to enforce it. They may enforce it on a discretionary basis.


Anyone know how this applies to Pyrodex, et al.?

Is Pyrodex considered Black Powder or Smokeless Powder, for this purpose?

(Of course, it's actually neither.)
That is a great question.

kentucky bucky
July 18, 2008, 08:17 PM
I suggest they roll up that "Safety Code" and insert it in a posteriorly associated sphincter.

scrat
July 18, 2008, 08:52 PM
so if i own 1lbs of bp, then my wife own one, then there is one at my dads house, one at my brothers. that they just so happen to let me use when i need. im ok

yes im stuck in **********

scrat
July 18, 2008, 08:54 PM
looks like i need to load a lot more 45 colt ammo. then i wont have more than 1lbs again

KiltedClaymore
July 18, 2008, 08:55 PM
mind if i thread-jack for a sec? im wondering where i can find a 25 pound keg of powder. delivery, or if its in phoenix, local pickup?

Zoogster
July 18, 2008, 09:03 PM
so if i own 1lbs of bp, then my wife own one, then there is one at my dads house, one at my brothers. that they just so happen to let me use when i need. im ok
Well actualy no 'gifting' or 'delivery' of black powder is allowed, that specificly makes it not subject to the exemption set forth in section 12102 for 12101:

12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
sporting powder, provided that:
(a) Smokeless powder is intended only for hand loading of small
arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(b) Black sporting powder is intended for loading of small arms or
small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
or other disposition to another person.

So your wife (I don't know how a spouse applies under the law since property is legaly mutauly owned in many cases, whether that limits you both to one total or allows for 2 seperate 1 pound quantities), father and brother would all be commiting crimes by giving you black powder.

Of course nobody would likely ever learn about it, so you would get away with breaking that law, but you would still be breaking that law.
You sneaky criminal. ;)

scrat
July 18, 2008, 09:07 PM
What powder i dont know what your talking about. in fact why would i need powder. what guns. me own guns.

mykeal
July 18, 2008, 09:11 PM
Zoogster,

Please read post #22 and answer my questions.

Rachen
July 18, 2008, 09:39 PM
Isn't federal law 50 pounds.

Yeah, but when have anti-gun extremists ever regarded the law? They even dare to spit on and stomp on the Constitution of the United States, how would you expect them to follow any law?:cuss:

scrat
July 18, 2008, 09:55 PM
Zoogster,

Please read post #22 and answer my questions.

you scared him away. Just another bp hater i guess.

Zoogster
July 18, 2008, 10:53 PM
Zoogster,

Please read post #22 and answer my questions.

They didn't really seem like questions, but more directional statements about what I should do since I wish to present this information.
Rude in my opinion so I simply chose to move on rather than acknowledge it.


I usualy like to research the law on things I do, you can't really be free, know if an officer is wrong if it becomes an issue and know what legal limits you have if you don't. After all ignorance of the law is no excuse in a court of law, even if you have to be a full time lawyer to not be ignorant of some laws (most laws) and keep up to date with them as they change.
Every year CA passes thousands of laws, clearly most people could not even cite a couple dozen of them.

I have not done much blackpowder shooting myself, but I thought it could be a lot of fun. Shooting black powder muzzle loaders, even multishot revolvers is practicly reloading each time, and as a result is quite affordable and fun compared to cartridge firearms.
Further you can easily make the propellant yourself in its best format. While smokeless even double and triple based can also be made it requires more steps, nitrating materials and then properly processing them, and is not as clearly legal. A slight variation of performance in different batches with smokeless is also much less acceptable. So the tolerances are closer.
Setting up a private laboratory with all the proper equipment during the "war on drugs" is a good way to find yourself with charges if it is 'mistaken' for (or just plainly accused of being) a meth lab.
We also have the "war on terror" and nitrating various things and making explosives could land someone in a lot of trouble even when legal. Certain types of charges are hard to fight even if false, I see those type of charges as being in that catagory.

With black powder you avoid most of that. It is more suited for a fun hobby.


Black powder is fairly simple to make, though it does take a good technique to get it just right. Many others on here do it just fine, have perfected thier technique and eagerly help others to achieve the same success. I have made small amounts with decent success for shooting, and long ago some for rockets, fireworks, etc.
So I wanted to be sure I knew the laws regarding it in the state before I got heavily into it.

So just like with many things in the crazy state of CA it is best to research things you wish to do much of. I knew some of the basics but started down the path of learning the details of the relevant laws.

I was amazed that the restrictions included such a small amount without a permit, an amount that clearly most avid black powder shooters would have more than.
I ran across cases where people had actualy been charged for possessing more than a pound and that it is a felony, punishable by up to three years, though usualy results in no real time.
Since it is clearly such a small amount to to be illegal and people on here talk about purchasing in bulk, making batches of thier own etc it goes to reason many in CA would be commiting crimes they are unaware of.
Crimes that are felonies and could strip them of thier RKBA clearly something people that visit such a board think is important(in CA felons can't have black powder weapons either.)


A further consideration is that even just giving someone a small amount of black powder is illegal without a permit.
Sharing a good batch with a friend is a crime. Probably something people should be aware of?

Clearly these are things that the average person would not assume was a crime. So surely people should be informed just for the sake of knowing the law?
What they wish to do with that information is up to them as semi-free people of the United States. I just felt they deserved to be informed.
So I felt the need to inform people of the potential felony crime.

Smokin_Gun
July 19, 2008, 02:22 AM
Clearly these are things that the average person would not assume was a crime. So surely people should be informed just for the sake of knowing the law?
What they wish to do with that information is up to them as semi-free people of the United States. I just felt they deserved to be informed.
So I felt the need to inform people of the potential felony crime

Zoogster it ain't this forum that needs to be moved from, it's any wet fart like you that one needs to be moved from.
How dare you attemped to invade my privacy or anyone elses with the BS you are attemping to push and attemp to create felons of us all.
You have no right that is blaten verbal asault, and defimation of charactor. And yes I contacted my Criminal attorney and pointed to this website and you for the most part. So don't be surprised that with all the miles of info you have spuded at us, that it would possibley be of interest to someone else to find out your passionate interest in Black Powder. Gotta be careful Zootag alot of other things carry a felony offence or grounds for investigation.
Sleep well:what:

SG:cool:

zxcvbob
July 19, 2008, 02:33 AM
I'm pretty sure "black powder" or "black gunpowder" means real blackpowder, and Pyrodex or other substitutes would be covered by the 20# limit for smokeless powders.

However, I'll bet if you dig deep enough in California law, everybody in the state is guilty of *something* that with a little imagination could be prosecuted as a felony. (Ayn Rand predicted something like that in Atlas Shrugged. It's a control thing)

mykeal
July 19, 2008, 08:15 AM
Zoogster,

I thought this was a pretty straightforward, yes or no type question:
So, Zoogster, the reason you posted this drivel is because you want everyone in CA who possesses more than a pound of black powder to know that, in your opinion, they are committing a felony. Do I have that right?
No direction as to what you should do in that language anywhere, although it's pretty clear what I think of the value of your post. Come on man, answer the question, yes or no: you wanted everyone in CA who possesses more than a pound of black powder to know that, in your opinion, they are committing a felony; is that correct or not?

I suspect, after reading your rather long response, the vast majority of which had absolutely nothing to do with the questions that you answer to the following:
What is it that you expect them to do with that shocking revelation? Immediately throw away all their excess powder? March on Sacramento demanding the laws be changed? Move to Ohio?
was that you didn't expect them to do anything other than just be aware of your opinion. Another yes or no question: is my presumption correct?

I did have a suggestion,which you ignored (by the way, the use of the word 'suggest' does not imply direction, but rather advice, unsolicited to be sure, and therefore subject to your volition):
I suggest, if you're serious about this, that you do the following, in order:
1) Decide just what it is you want people to do with this knowledge, and then say so.
2) Provide examples in case law showing how the language is enforced and what the 'danger' to the public good is as a result of that enforcement.
In the end, you ignored this advice. I can only conclude that there is no such case law to support your position. That leads to a third simple, yes or no question: Am I correct in that conclusion?

pohill
July 19, 2008, 09:01 AM
Geez, the guy posts some info that might or might not be of use to someone, which basically covers any and all posts that are posted, and he gets crap. I'd say his intent was pretty straightforward - to warn those that might not know the law. Even if he is technically wrong (and I don't know that he is), his INTENT was good.
I've posted before about the legal dangers of buying an antique gun that shoots modern ammo, or carrying a loaded antique or repro concealed, and received similiar crap.
Maybe we need more Thought Police.

arcticap
July 19, 2008, 10:31 AM
I started a similar thread back on March 14, 2007 about New York State BP regulations where there's some weird restrictions that no one ever follows.
As absurd as these state laws & regulations are, they're interesting just because they're on the books.

When folks don't like the message then they want to blame the messenger.
Personal attacks are definitely not High Road.

New York State BP Regulations

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262267&highlight=new+york

dwave
July 19, 2008, 10:42 AM
Yep that is the way it is done with a few people on the BP forum, just attack the OP if they say something unpopular. VERY High Road. So who was the Hater here? I don't think it was the OPer, I think this one needs locked.

mykeal
July 19, 2008, 10:48 AM
If the State of California was actively involved in arresting and prosecuting people for possession of 5 lbs of black powder I'd say the OP was doing us all a great service. The fact is, however, that nobody has ever been charged with such a crime. There is no case law. That leads me to question the accuracy of his claims and wonder about his motives. When and if information comes to light that shows I was in error, I will certainly admit that; you all know I have readily done so in the past.

There was no personal attack. At no time did I use any invective. I did state my opinion about the information, but made no implications regarding the person or personality of the poster. Hate was never implied, however much you wish to infer it as my motive. I don't mind if you disagree with my opinions, but please at least be accurate in your criticisms.

If anyone wishes to comment on this post, I'd be happy to read it in a private message. Unless someone can provide reference to information showing the State of California is enforcing these regulations in the manner suggested by the OP, I'll have nothing further to say in public on this topic.

Smokin_Gun
July 19, 2008, 01:38 PM
Yep that is the way it is done with a few people on the BP forum, just attack the OP if they say something unpopular. VERY High Road. So who was the Hater here? I don't think it was the OPer, I think this one needs locked.


You seem to be the hater, no one else mentioned the word attack but you. And i do think the operator is stirring the pot. I would hope that the High Road would hold my opinion in the same light as yours. Unless you wrote all the crap.

And I don't think this one should be locked it should be read.


his INTENT was good

Pohill, if you did read the whole thread I don't see how you think this was well itended. I am sure your thread that was posted surely was with good intent.
This guy, I believe, was here merely to divide a forum and cause hate and discontent...at least discontent.
Pohill I live here, do you think I would lie to you or anyone else about how it really is here or not know the law? I've been here since 1974 owned and registered assault weapons, have very close friends in the Sheriff's Dept. and a Personal friend that's a Criminal Attorney I have been in contact with for 10 years. Anyone that shoots legally knows what going on here. And the criminals don't care.
Why would anyone come on a forum and repeated point out that all BP owners of more than one lb. are felons? To help and share knowledge of the less fortunate? Are we stupid in CA and illiterate.
Nawww Pohill this guy ain't a do gooder, in my honest opinion...he's gettin' off watchin' the show.

SG

zxcvbob
July 19, 2008, 01:53 PM
If the State of California was actively involved in arresting and prosecuting people for possession of 5 lbs of black powder I'd say the OP was doing us all a great service. The fact is, however, that nobody has ever been charged with such a crime. There is no case law.

I remember news reports last year of some old guy that had "A MILLION" :barf: rounds of ammo, along with guns and gunpowder and reloading supplies, in a tunnel under his garage. He was arrested of course. The only charge that stuck was having too much black powder, which was a felony, and disqualified all his guns. I assumed "too much" was over 50 pounds, but I'm not sure they ever said.

Just because the Sword of Damocles hasn't fallen yet doesn't mean it never will. Do you really want it hanging over your head? You have voter referendums in CA, get the law changed to bring it in line with federal regulations.

Zoogster
July 19, 2008, 04:12 PM
If the State of California was actively involved in arresting and prosecuting people for possession of 5 lbs of black powder
It is one pound, you have seen the law showing it is one pound, and there is numerous sources you can ask.
More than 5 pounds is an additional offense.



I remember news reports last year of some old guy that had "A MILLION" rounds of ammo, along with guns and gunpowder and reloading supplies, in a tunnel under his garage. He was arrested of course. The only charge that stuck was having too much black powder, which was a felony, and disqualified all his guns. I assumed "too much" was over 50 pounds, but I'm not sure they ever said.
You are correct, it was this guy, and while the story mentions other violations, that is the primary one.
He supposedly had 75 pounds (though it sounds like that is the combination of loose smokeless and black powder he had if you read the article), but they even stated more than one pound was illegal in the article :

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_5352910
Here is the photo gallery, I especialy like number 2 with the ATF agent pointing one of the man's firearms at another officer.
http://lang.dailybulletin.com/socal/gallery2/index.asp

NORCO - A city resident whose house was found to have a million-plus rounds of ammunition among other illegal items has been arrested.
Thomas McKiernan, 62, was arrested Friday afternoon on suspicion of possession of assault weapons, illegal ammunition and explosives, Riverside County Sheriff's Department officials said.


McKiernan was booked into the Robert Presley Detention Center in Riverside with bail set at $100,000. It was not known Saturday if McKiernan posted bail.
The arrest at 12:35 p.m. came after McKiernan's release from psychiatric evaluation at Riverside County Regional Medical Center.

McKiernan had scuffled with Norco firefighters on Thursday while they were trying to extinguish a fire at his house in the 1800 block of Pali Drive.

After the fire was put out, authorities discovered the cache of ammunition and gun powder in the garage, along with a tunnel about 10 feet deep and more than 25 feet long under the house, officials said.

Norco Fire Department Battalion Chief Ron Knueven said Saturday the fire is believed to have started in the attic above the kitchen area, but no exact location has been determined.

More than 1 million rounds of ammunition, 125 guns and rifles and about 75 pounds of black ammunition powder were retrieved during a multi-agency investigation.

The tunnel was found to contain barrels of water, cooking oil and rice, as well as other nonperishable foods.

Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez said that due to the stockpiled goods and the man-made tunnel under the house, McKiernan "appeared to be a survivalist."

Many neighbors and friends of McKiernan have defended his affinity for guns and ammunition - calling him a collector and hobbyist.

Residents along Pali Drive have overwhelmingly described McKiernan as a quiet and considerate neighbor who always provided help when asked, enjoyed working in the yard and cared deeply about his family.

"He's ex-Army. I think they're making it bigger than it is," neighbor "Tiny" Bosch said. "He was a quiet, good neighbor, but that was his fetish (gun collecting)."

Bosch's wife, Jennifer, concurred.

"He comes out of war with all the weapons he's comfortable with, and now it's illegal all of the sudden and he's in trouble," Jennifer Bosch said. "He's been here like 40 years."

Gutierrez said the rifles and handguns were not the problem. It was the possession of five semi-automatic weapons and ammunition larger than .60-caliber that is considered illegal, he said.

While it is fine to have one pound of black gunpowder, McKiernan had more than 20 pounds.

More than 40 pounds of smokeless powder was found at the house, and thus McKiernan's cache surpassed the legal limit of 20 pounds, Gutierrez said.

William Price, 84, of Arkansas, said he has known McKiernan for decades. A war veteran like McKiernan, Price said his friend was being unfairly persecuted.

"I knew he used to shoot a lot at the range, and he'd reload his own," said Price, who fought in World War II. "He was a collector. I guess he collected too much.

"When people are in the war, they get a little messed up ... They drill it into you so much - you've always got to be protected."

Sheriff`s officials have said the amount of ammunition retrieved from the house was likely the largest in Riverside County.

The city of Norco released the house, roofless and unstable in its foundation due to the tunnel, back into the control of McKiernan's family members.

Kneuven said the house may be demolished and rebuilt, as its current condition has been determined unsafe and unlivable.

Here is the situation aobut a month later, he reached a plea agreement for having unregistered assault weapons legal prior to 2000 that he had possessed, but primarily for having explosives, the gun powder.
They mention 185 pounds here, probably combining the previous amounts of loose powder with the weight of the loaded ammunition.
He plead guilty so they can essentialy say what they want and no challenge is made to it.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_ammo25.3bafec3.html

"Most of McKiernan 's guns were collected over decades, and they include collector's pieces such as pre-World War II guns. His illegal assault rifles were bought before they were outlawed in 2000, indicating that McKiernan was at least trying to be a law-abiding collector, Mayman said."

"The problem, said Mayman, is that McKiernan 's stockpile of gunpowder was a threat to the community. He had more than 185 pounds of gunpowder -- dozens of times the legal limit."

They also took his home away because of the tunnel. Condemned it.

"Even though his neighbors had to be evacuated due to the explosives, many in the community came out in support of McKiernan, who lived in the now-condemned home for 32 years"


There is many other cases of illegal possession of black powder. Some for just having over 1 pound, though most of them do relate to firework possession cases.
Most are just court calendar records for the charges and not good detailed stories. There is others for more than a pound for shooting though, if I run across decent detailed stories I will add those.

Zoogster
July 19, 2008, 04:55 PM
Here is a post from another guy on a forum that seems to sum up the law fairly well http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27038&highlight=&sid=0f50ba78f92d24a3b4f3f1cae54d73b1 :

In California, of course, possession of more than one pound of black powder at a time in your home is illegal. Amounts beyond that have to be stored in an improved explosives bunker in a remote area (rural), and requires a license. It doesn't matter that the black powder is in its original factory container. You can have one pound at a time. That is why black powder substitutes are especially popular in California, since they come under the "possession" laws of smokeless powder. Some dealers will not even stock black powder. Legally, they can only stock, in their stores, five pounds, I believe. I am starting to forget some of the regulations here the longer I am retired. Think of that. That is only, basically, one pound of each type. When we were in business we stocked only FFFG, and even flintlock customers used it for priming and our musket customers generally used it for the main charge, instead of FFG.

That sounds consistent with what I have come across, and read in the law.

Anyone know how this applies to Pyrodex, et al.?

Is Pyrodex considered Black Powder or Smokeless Powder, for this purpose?

Well that is of course just some guy's post on the net, but it sounds right looking at the law.
Meaning substitutes fall under the 20 pound limit (of course that includes all smokeless or substitutes combined) rather than the 1 pound black powder limit.

dwave
July 19, 2008, 07:20 PM
For the record Mykeal, it wasn't you I was criticizing, it was comments like these:

Zoogster it ain't this forum that needs to be moved from, it's any wet fart like you that one needs to be moved from.

Seems pretty hate filled to me now doesn't it? You call me a hater for saying it but its the truth, you are so pissed off that people have posted something about your precious state and it has made you mad. That's life. We in America have the freedom of speech, but we don't have the freedom not to be offended. You should have been more high road Smokin_gun, instead of just calling him a wet fart. Sure, I am the hater here.

Oh 1 more thing:
no one else mentioned the word attack but you.

I don't have to say I am attacking someone to make it official. I don't run around and say "I AM ATTACKING YOU NOW!!! HERE COMES THE INSULTS!!!" Very brilliant on your part. (and yes that was an attack genius.)

mykeal
July 19, 2008, 08:37 PM
Zoogster,

I want case law, which is the real truth, not the meanderings of 'news' outlets that (even you admit in your post) can't get the facts correct.

I don't want anecdotes or some tenth hand story that someone maybe remembers part of what he might have heard someone say or maybe read someplace.

Provide the legal citations, e.g. The State of California vs. John XXXXX, date XXXXXX, XXXXX Court. Please.

Very simple, yes or no questions. No answers, just several paragraphs of rambling anecdotes. I give up.

mykeal
July 19, 2008, 08:39 PM
dWave - thank you. I apologize for misunderstanding.

dwave
July 19, 2008, 08:48 PM
No problem Mykeal. I thought your post had some good questions in them. I just get tired of the insults (although I just made a few just to prove a point) that get thrown around to people instead of a good debate.

Smokin_Gun
July 19, 2008, 09:03 PM
Seems pretty hate filled to me now doesn't it? You call me a hater for saying it but its the truth, you are so pissed off that people have posted something about your precious state and it has made you mad. That's life. We in America have the freedom of speech, but we don't have the freedom not to be offended. You should have been more high road Smokin_gun, instead of just calling him a wet fart. Sure, I am the hater

Maybe you should look into that crystal ball you have and see how long it will take before someone "SEEMS" like they'll shove it where the sun won't shine. And end the love affair you have with you littlefriend.:rolleyes:

I give too!
Mykeal he ain't commin' back, Zoogster just did as I mentioned he'd try to do and split the Black Powder shooters up. Causing a comic mess of this thread.
Pohill love ya like a brother, Mykeal you are alright anytime in my book, dwave I don' t know you that well but I like you too.

Back to shootin' The Holy Black...go make Smoke!

SG

dwave
July 19, 2008, 09:42 PM
No hard feelings here Smokin_gun. I was being harsh to prove a point, not agreeing with the OP. I say let bygones be, and make smoke.

Zoogster
July 19, 2008, 10:07 PM
If some people don't want to hear something is illegal, even when clearly cited and shown to them then that is thier problem.

If you want to do something illegal because you probably won't be held accountable for breaking the law, then that is fine too.

It is still the law, it can still be a serious crime, and attacking the messenger does not change that.

I have put enough into this to inform people of the issue. Consider yourself informed. If it is not good enough for you then you can do your own research.

Happy Shooting.

Smokin_Gun
July 20, 2008, 12:12 AM
But you Zoogster can STFU:neener:
And the above means Stay Thankful For Us:D

I don't hate you I hate no one, but I sure don't have to like you.

That whole speal was pure BS and redundant, you never answered one direct question and merely repeadedly copied and pasted parts of empty text with no value by itself....Now I'm done with you.

Thank you all but one very much and appologize to any others I may have offended.:cool:

SG

KiltedClaymore
July 20, 2008, 12:21 AM
these black powder threads are MUCH more entertaining than the other high road threads.

Rachen
July 21, 2008, 05:08 PM
I don't think Zoogster is a Han Jian

He has almost 2000 posts, and a top contributor to THR. I don't understand why would he want to split the shooting community apart.

But, now that the topic is brought up, I will say this: we do have some real Han Jians in the shooting community. Groups such as American Hunters and Shooters Association:barf::barf:

BTW: "Han Jian" is a word that we used during World War II to describe any Chinese person who defected over to the Japanese occupation army and actually aided the Japanese military in capturing and killing members of the Resistance.

scalper
July 21, 2008, 06:30 PM
All I can say is thank God I live in the great state of Missouri where we "cling to our guns and religion".:D

scrat
July 22, 2008, 11:09 PM
So is it me or is the black powder forum the only interseting part of thr. besides general topics

dwave
July 23, 2008, 10:50 PM
It is an interesting forum, but it is amazing how after arguing we still get along in the end. So much better than how most of the fighting goes on the other forums. I think that is why I like this forum so much.

yenchisks
July 23, 2008, 10:59 PM
California is one of the beautiful place's in the world but there laws suck...

scrat
July 24, 2008, 02:39 PM
ya it is. where i live in 40 minutes i could be at the beach, or 40 minutes i can be in the mountains, or 40 minutes i could be in the desert. You could never get bored of it, there is no such thing as there is nothing to do. There are more shops here, more deals here, more places to see and things to do than any other part of the country. There are places in beverly hills where the other people go (people with money). That sell pants for 600.00. Amazingly people buy them. I did a job a few weeks ago in beverly hills. In the parking lot were 4 Bentleys the $400,000 car. Just friggen amazing. As for me if i want clothes on the cheap side. You can go to the garmet district. Its the place where they make the clothes and get them from over sees and the buyers from all the companies go to mass purchase there stuff. You can buy clothes straight from the boxes when they got off the boats for dirt cheap, not just clothes too. So ya it has its advantages. Just the laws really suck.

chaoszen
July 28, 2008, 10:23 AM
Almost everything you do could be a felony in this country. We live under an authoritarian facist government that would be more than happy to put you in prison for the slightest offence and use you as slave labor. There are almost 2.5 million Americans who are inmates in the United States prison system. More than any other country per-capita in the world. That would include China and the former Soviet Bloc. If you havent't noticed, the right wing nut cases have shredded our constitution and violated all the liberties that we true patriots hold dear. And the current administration has even justified torture in the Justice Department in the name of National Security... So hold onto yur guns and grab yer buns. We are in for a wild ride...:cool:

scalper
July 28, 2008, 11:32 AM
If you havent't noticed, the right wing nut cases have shredded our constitution

Be careful on this one. I think it is important to remember who your friends are. Those "right wingers" are the only ones in Washington who will defend "our" second amendment rights. While the current admin is far from perfect, the alternative (no names mentioned, but you all know who we are referring to) is going to be a huge threat to those of us who cling to our guns and religion. :-)

pohill
July 28, 2008, 12:22 PM
Ya know, as I get older, I try to ignore differing opinions that I consider totally off the wall, but chaoszen...would you care to elaborate? You see, I actually love this country and our way of life. I live in Massachusetts, which is about as restrictive as it gets when it comes to gun laws, but I have all the guns I want. I really don't think the Constitution has been shredded... really, would you care to elaborate?

mykeal
July 28, 2008, 01:03 PM
Please don't.

This is a black powder, not a political forum. Take your political discussions and opinions elsewhere, please.

Thank you.

pohill
July 28, 2008, 01:22 PM
This is a black powder, not a political forum
I agree completely, but he did get my dander up.
I gotta work on that, especially in an election year..

KiltedClaymore
July 28, 2008, 03:45 PM
It is an interesting forum, but it is amazing how after arguing we still get along in the end. So much better than how most of the fighting goes on the other forums. I think that is why I like this forum so much.

black powder shooters tend to be more prone to argument in my experiance. BUT at the end of it all, they manage to get to the bottom of what the argument was about and SOLVE it.

DoubleDeuce 1
July 28, 2008, 03:56 PM
After reading most of the posts on this topic, and the news article from Norco California, I find the whole thing a bit disturbing.
1- I find the old gentleman might have been railroaded. Clearly he should have not fought with the firemen, if that is what he did.
2- If he was sent to the hospital for mental evaluation, there would have to be good reasons to do that.
3- It is not against the law in California to commit suicide, you just can't help someone do it.
4- Given the amount of information in the news article, I think the police may have over re-acted. There was no mention of the execution of a search warrant. They cannot go into places such as tunnels without probable cause and or permission. The fact there was a tunnel there without any more information given, does not allow them to enter.
5- Calling for the HazMat folks was clearly an over reaction, given the information on the news.
6- For the police to call in ATF and whoever else to assist in their investigation was another layer at possibly making more of this than it really is. The news media loves this sort of thing and take delight in making mountains out of mole hills. And unfortunately so do some of those in positions of authority. Face time on the news and in the press can be a feather in your cap, and enhances your chances for promotion or choice assignments.
7- The amount of black powder is merely an enhancement to whatever else the old gent is possibly facing charges on. The first thing that started the ball rolling was his resisting or interferring with the firemen according to the news.
8- Lacking more information, it would seem to me the police are walking a thin line as to how they will justify the arrest. That being said, the possible illegal search of the residence and the collection of "evidence" stands a good chance of being thrown out in court if it gets that far.
9- The damage, right or wrong, is done.
10- I speak from experience. And again, given the information, it could have been handled differently.
11- I have a large "cache" of socks in my sock drawer.

pohill
July 28, 2008, 05:17 PM
DoubleDeuce1,
did you read the outcome of the arrest?
I gotta say, if my neighbor's house is on fire, and he has that much powder, ammo, etc inside, I hope the hell they put the fire out.

Here is the situation aobut a month later, he reached a plea agreement for having unregistered assault weapons legal prior to 2000 that he had possessed, but primarily for having explosives, the gun powder.
They mention 185 pounds here, probably combining the previous amounts of loose powder with the weight of the loaded ammunition.
He plead guilty so they can essentialy say what they want and no challenge is made to it.

chaoszen
July 28, 2008, 05:54 PM
It looks like this particular thread got a bit political before I stumbled in.:uhoh: But in deference to some senior members I will not elaborate (no matter how much I may want to) on my previous post. I got a bit carried away. Maybe it's because I was born and raised in California.;)

DoubleDeuce 1
July 28, 2008, 07:31 PM
Pohill, I agree if the neighbor's house is on fire and there is powder around, or ammunition, putting the fire out would be first and foremost. Been there and done that a few times.
As for the final outcome, I think it is a shame. Too bad he didn't have his day in court, but then again maybe the cost for defending himself would have been too much for him to bear. But again, not knowing the facts kind of hampers thorough thinking and reasoning through the maze.
I also have to think that maybe the old gent got some advice not to fight. I would almost bet there is some clause, written or implied, in there for him not to sue the various agencies for violation of his civil rights in exchange for a plea of guilt.
I just believe it could have been handled a lot better.

Gunruner
July 28, 2008, 07:59 PM
Will this thread never die(sigh)..........................................:banghead:

dwave
July 28, 2008, 09:31 PM
Will this thread never die(sigh)..........................................

Why? Just don't read it if it upsets you.

BTW, you posting on this thread has helped it go on, makes you feel good doesn't it? :)

chaoszen
July 28, 2008, 09:43 PM
I think it's a good thread. It gave us all a chance to get to know one another a bit better. Some of these issues are never discussed. The old politics and religion ban. I would think it gives the conversation a bit of flavor. Maybe thats why there are so many posts and views.:rolleyes:

If you enjoyed reading about "Black powder is a felony" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!