M&P owners past and present. Why is the S&W M&P a bad pistol?


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ceadermtnboy
July 18, 2008, 08:55 PM
I dont want to become a fan-boy of the M&P! I have had a 9mm for about a year now and honestly I can find no faults. I seriously want to buy a H&K P30 to see if its worth the extra dollars. Please give my some reasons to doubt the M&P and try the H&K. Or talk me into keeping the M&P and being happy that I have the most advanced poly pistol on the market. Now please dont say Keep the M&P and buy the H&K. My goal is to have the best polymer pistol on the market! I also have the XD and do not care for Glocks. Please give me some examples of why the M&P has been a dissapointment for you.

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SureThing
July 18, 2008, 08:58 PM
Honestly, HK's and Sigs are great weapons. Are they worth the extra price compared to the Smith, probably not. Remember, Smiths are offering a 2 mag rebate now, and budsgunshop has them at great prices these days.

Curious, which do you like best, XD or the M&P? I posted the quesiton on glocktalk, and most of those who own both prefered the M&P .

Frog48
July 18, 2008, 09:14 PM
I dont have one, but a deputy I worked with had an M&P in .40 S&W, and he said its his favorite service pistol. I'm not sure what other brands/models he has carried in the past, but I figure that he did his homework before buying.

One thing that I found somewhat unusual is that quite a few of the deputies carried Rugers... I remember specifically seeing several P89's and P90's. This could be due to the policy that all personnel had to privately purchase their own duty weapons... and Rugers tend to the significantly less expensive than M&P's, Glocks, XD's, Sigs, etc.

jdh
July 18, 2008, 09:19 PM
Ford, Chevrolet, or Dodge?

How about this? Find a range in your area that rents guns and try them before you loose money on a trade.

gudel
July 18, 2008, 09:23 PM
I've owned HK, Glock, M&P, and Glock.
I prefer the HK. In my opinion, the HK is better built, better workmanship quality, with absolute reliability. That's just me.

You should buy what you want and what you can afford.

rbernie
July 18, 2008, 09:23 PM
Please give me some examples of why the M&P has been a dissapointment for you.I cannot - I have a few M&Ps and have put thousand of rounds thru them with ZERO complaints.

The only thing I can stetch to complain about is that they should have crammed a few more rounds into the 45ACP.

mbpautz762
July 18, 2008, 09:26 PM
my M&P .40 is a dream to shoot. It's the only pistol that I can shoot 1 ragged hole with all day long, and it's the softest recoiling .40 I've ever shot. that being said, mine has had some serious problems. after about 600 rounds, the slide developed a crack on the bottom slide rail. not a ding or a chip, but an actual stress crack! I've never seen anything like it on a pistol, and I've only shot tame factory ammo out of it. Luckily, Smith&Wesson took care of it no problem - replaced the slide for free, and pretty quickly too. love their warranty!

then, about 1000 rounds later, it started developing a problem that would cause the magazine to eject after every few shots. NOT the kind of problem you would want to happen when you really needed it. sometimes it would just release the magazine about a inch, sometimes it would actually eject the magazine all the way out, onto the ground. so now it's being packed up for it's second trip to smith & wesson.

the bottom line is that if I had these problems with any other pistol, it would be sold within a week. however, I am so accurate with this gun and it feels so good to shoot it, I decided to keep it and get it repaired again. I'm one of the few who's even had problems with their M&P at all.

ceadermtnboy
July 18, 2008, 09:30 PM
I live in Asheville NC. There are two ranges within an hours drive. Neither have the H&K for rent. I like the XD but not as well as the M&P. I also like the p226 and CZ again not as much as the M&P. I hear a lot of opinions on the M&P that are somewhat negative, but I am looking for examples of problems owners have had, and likewise examples why the H&K is better.

Defensory
July 18, 2008, 09:33 PM
Posted by cedarmtnboy:
Or talk me into keeping the M&P and being happy that I have the most advanced poly pistol on the market. Now please dont say Keep the M&P and buy the H&K. My goal is to have the best polymer pistol on the market! I also have the XD and do not care for Glocks.

M&P the "most advanced poly pistol on the market."?! :rolleyes:

NOT!

The Springfield XD-M is light years more advanced than the M&P.

The M&P isn't even as good a weapon as the the standard XD.

And I own BOTH!

ceadermtnboy
July 18, 2008, 09:36 PM
mbpautz762, Did S&W give any reasons why the slide would crack and mag would release? I have approx 2500 rounds through my 9mm without those problems. But this does raise concern on the quality of the parts used in manufacturing.

SureThing
July 18, 2008, 09:42 PM
The XDm is pure marketing BS. I have the new Guns and Ammo, and they go on and on how great it is.

But when they shot it from 25 yards, it produced groups no better than the regular XD's get. Which is at best 2.5 inches to 3.5.

So accuracy is the same, but a few features are better. They sould have just replaced the XD with the new one, then charged a few extra bucks for it.

Corbon 134gr 3.25 in
Corbon 140 3.25
Magtech 130 SCHP 3.0
Hornady 155 2.5
Black Hills Blue box 3.75
Blazer PHP 2.5

I'm leaving off a few, the list is long.

ceadermtnboy
July 18, 2008, 09:49 PM
I like the xd. It is not as ergonomic as the M&P in my opinion. Also the back slide rails are plastic with no steel inserts, so for whatever reason that bothers me. I like the steel rails on the M&P. However the M&P does not seem to have as tight a fit as the H&K. I do remember a gun rag comparing the M&P to the HK P2000, XD, and Taurus. I was stunned that they rated the HK below the M&P and the XD. The HK P30 has a very ergonomic grip and I am surprised that I acutally like the mag release. But I have been so impressed with the M&P that it is really difficult to make myself trade it for the P30.

DrDeFab
July 18, 2008, 10:00 PM
One minor complaint: my M&P 40 will sometimes FTF one brand of range ammo that my CZ 75b digests without complaint. It's been perfect with every other brand, though.

mbpautz762
July 18, 2008, 10:02 PM
ceadermtn....I was hoping S&W would give me a reason, but all the packing slip said was "slide assembly replaced", nothing else. to be fair, it didn't change the reliability in any way, and I actually shot about 300 rounds in it after the crack developed before I got it fixed. here's a picture:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7231/2002391564930617346rsvq8.jpg

I'm sure it was just a defective model, because I have not heard of this happening to any one else.

I've also shot the XD, and thought it felt like shooting a brick. more uncomfortable than a glock, and was too dang top-heavy. way too much muzzle flip, even for a .40. I guess it really comes down to which one fits your hand best, since all the guns mentioned so far have stellar track records, minus a few bad apples. when it comes down to that, the S&W warranty is what sells their guns. good luck!

Defensory
July 18, 2008, 10:53 PM
The M&P does NOT have a "stellar track record":

Magazines falling out due to recoil.
Slides locking back with rounds still in the magazine.
Slides not locking back after the final round is fired.
Broken strikers.
Unreliable feeding.

The M&P has had numerous significant issues from the get-go:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/general-firearm-discussion/41819-tell-me-about-your-s-w-m-p-problems.html

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51326

The Lone Haranguer
July 18, 2008, 10:55 PM
You will hear no such complaints about my M&P 9C. :) Well, maybe one: the slide could be slimmer, for more comfortable carry and less of a "top-heavy" feel - hardly insurmountable. But its trigger pull is pretty good, its accuracy is very good, and its reliability has been perfect.

While I have not shot one (none available for rental), the H&K P2000SK (their closest equivalent in size to the 9C) would have to be mighty good to overcome the 50% price difference.

FieroCDSP
July 18, 2008, 11:49 PM
Cedarmtnboy, if you want another gun, just buy one. If you need to sell the M&P to get one, just do it.
There's no need to call a gun "bad" if it's not. Just say "I sold it to get this one, and I wish I hadn't."

My goal is to have the best polymer pistol on the market

Lost cause. You're not going to find it. You might as well be searching for the "best GPS unit". No matter what you do or how much you'll spend, you'll find something about it you're not happy with. That's because it's designed for most, not for you. Unless you build the gun, you're not going to think it's perfect. Even then, you likely won't be happy.

magnumman44
July 19, 2008, 12:04 AM
I guess its the shooter with the XD...I had an XD40 tactical for 4 years, and averaged 1.5" groups with Winchester White Box! My XD45 tactical averages 1.75" with CCI Blazer Brass 230 FMJ. Good groups in my opinion.

kwelz
July 19, 2008, 12:18 AM
I just purchased my first M&P today. A Dark Earth .45. I hate S&W. Except the 686 they have never produced a Firearm that I likes. That is until now.

I must say that this is a Fine firearm. I own a SC XD in 9mm, a Glock 23 and a Glock 17 along with a few 1911s, revolvers, etc. So far I think I like the M&P better than any of the other Polymer pistols. The Glocks point a bit better for me but the M&P is more comfortable and sleeker. Also the bore axis is lower than the XD which I like.

I fully intend to eventually own more XDs, maybe another glock. But my next purchase will be another M&P in 9mm

I am sorry I just remembered I do have one problem. The gun came with two mags and one of them is to tight. The guides formed into the side of the mag at the top push on the rounds to much causing them to hang. I am going to bend them out a bi and if that doesn't work S&W has already states they will replace them.

greener
July 19, 2008, 12:30 AM
Wouldn't venture a guess as to which one is better. I have an M&P9 that has been absolutely reliable. It's been a pretty accurate shooter. I've fired a couple of HK's and liked them, but really didn't see that the extra bucks would have gotten me that much more than the M&P.

Disaster
July 19, 2008, 12:43 AM
The only disappointment I've had with my M&P is a little corrosion creeping in on the slide. Contacted S&W about it and they sent me a shipping label to get it fixed. I have yet to send it in because I hate being without it and going to my backup.

I've never had a mag drop issue, a slide lock or not lock issue, a firing pin failure or one single FTF through several thousand rounds of ammo and probably the same number of dry fires.

I don't see the point in getting the HK if you like your M&P. If I was really curious, I might buy one to compare, but I wouldn't part with my M&P to experiment.

klane
July 19, 2008, 09:59 AM
{I cannot - I have a few M&Ps and have put thousand of rounds thru them with ZERO complaints.

The only thing I can stetch to complain about is that they should have crammed a few more rounds into the 45ACP.}/

Ditto for me.

Sorry I tried quoting someone else and I failed!

Caipirinha
July 19, 2008, 10:03 AM
Mine has a terrible trigger but it is slowly improving.

Fatdaddy
July 19, 2008, 08:40 PM
I owned a MP40 for about 8 months. The gun is a very ergonomically styled weapon that fits the hand well. I just couldn't ever shoot it as well as my Glock 20 or my XD45. I didn't feel the trigger was anywhere as good as the XD or my G20 with 3.5# connector. Traded it to greener pastures.

Oh, did I mention the MP will burst into flames at the 100,000 rd. mark...probably. There, you have a reason to buy the HK:D.

romeo212000
July 19, 2008, 08:48 PM
You wont hear a complaint from me. Mine is one sweet gun. I picked it over the glock and xd because of the ergonomics and interchangeable grips, and because i liked the trigger better than the xd. Have not had one problem with it.

3KillerBs
July 19, 2008, 08:56 PM
DH loves his M&P so much that he's getting the compact too.

jon_in_wv
July 20, 2008, 11:45 AM
I've had my M&P 9C for over a year now and i have ZERO complaints. I carry it daily, its reliable, accurate, and the easiest gun to shoot well that I have handled other than my Hi-Power.

As far as the slide locking back, the shooter need to watch where they put thier thumbs. Smith should have used a stiffer spring on the slide lock but its not an issue if you don't rest your thumb on it while your shooting. Hardly a reason to condemn the weapon, you can reproduce the problem and many other weapons by doing the same thing.

George Hill
July 20, 2008, 02:32 PM
The Springfield XD-M is light years more advanced than the M&P.
How? Marketing and a Match barrel? The M&P had the replaceable backstraps before the XD did, and now the late to the game XD has it and now it's light years more advanced? What does it do... hover and use self guiding bullets?
You can put a match barrel in the M&P.... That's not light years either. That's just a barrel made to closer specs.

dontshakepandas
July 20, 2008, 03:00 PM
No, no, no. It's light years ahead because it LOOKS like a gun that would be used in Star Wars.

gtmtnbiker98
July 20, 2008, 03:07 PM
I own the MP9, MP9c, MP40, MP40c, and the MP45 and love them all! The MP40c is my CCW weapon and the MP40 stand watch over the house. I've got the new MP45 Compact on order so I'll soon have six of them. Do I like them, yes! Are they reliable? Yes. Are they better than an HK, that depends upon the shooter's opinion.

jocko
July 20, 2008, 07:56 PM
When I got my M & P 9, the trigger was terrible, at least for me it was but over all gun was super. I sent it off to Dave Bowie at bowie tactical for his custom work. had the grip stippled and dehorned and a compete action job with novak adjustable nite sites. This is one of the finest guns I have ever shot. It is just drop dead accurate, I didn't buy it to carry but wanted something to take to the range that I could shoot till the cows come home with ease. This gun is super. I bought it when Smith offered the $50 rebate and two free mags. Just couldn't pass it up. Built like a brick sh-t house, with the interchangable back straps, this gun will fit anyone. Bowie trigger/action job has to be one of the best around. Great gun IMO. Have well over 1000 rounds through mine since I got it back from Bowie and have yet to clean it, run a snake down the barrel and shoot some more..

Defensory
July 20, 2008, 08:01 PM
Posted by George Hill:
How? Marketing and a Match barrel? The M&P had the replaceable backstraps before the XD did, and now the late to the game XD has it and now it's light years more advanced? What does it do... hover and use self guiding bullets?
You can put a match barrel in the M&P.... That's not light years either. That's just a barrel made to closer specs.

Settle down, George. :) No need to act like I've just insulted your wife or something, and your appeal-to-ridicule with the "hover and use self guiding bullets" doesn't do anything for your argument except make it look bad. ;)

It's common in human discourse for people to use catch phrases like "light years more advanced." Of course, most people realize it isn't intended to be taken absolutely literally, thus they don't get defensive.

XD "late to the game"?! Hmmmm. I recall the standard XD pistol having been around considerably more years than the M&P, which wasn't released until 2005. Naturally, Smith had to put a feature or two on it that wasn't available on the XD at that time, in order to attract customers.

However, three years later the XD is still outselling the M&P in the civilian market, despite Smith's considerably greater national and worldwide marketing "muscle".

Since I actually own both an M&P and standard XD, and have fired a couple XDM's at my large private range---I feel I'm qualified to comment on them.

Though I own an M&P, and have owned other S&W handguns over the years---I refuse to reduce myself to the rampant fanboyism that affects the minds of so many Smith owners.

I don't even own an XDM, yet I think it's definitely a better weapon than the M&P I do own. Which proves there's no "ego" involved in my clear preference for the XDM. Those with ego-driven opinions will always crow about the gun they actually own being better than the one they don't.


1. Noticeably better trigger on the XDM. Shorter take-up and reset, lighter and less mushy. Best trigger of any polymer pistol I've ever fired.

Clear advantage XDM.

2. Noticeably superior match barrel that comes standard. Yes, you can put a match barrel in an M&P---but it's an OPTION that you will pay substantially extra for.

Clear advantage XDM.

3. Higher magazine capacity. I typically carry three magazines, which gives me three extra rounds with the XDM. Every little bit helps if and when a critical situation arises.

Advantage XDM.

4. Better slide serrations on the XDM, and has serrations near the front of the slide that the M&P lacks---which adds up to better gripping of the slide when hands are sweaty and slippery.

Advantage XDM.

5. Better grip texture on the XDM allows for better handling when hands are sweaty and slippery. I definitely can keep a little firmer grip on the XDM on a hot summer day.

Advantage XDM.

6. Magazine release button on the XDM is better located, better recessed and has better extension for easier reach than the one on the M&P. I can reach the XDM release without having to alter my firing hand grip---can't do that with the M&P.

Clear advantage XDM.

7. Better contruction and quality control on the XDM. Whereas early reports by owners and testers of the new XDM have indicated virtually no problems, when the M&P was released it was plagued with numerous substantive problems, some of which are still reported to be occurring by actual M&P owners.

Clear advantage XDM.

evan price
July 20, 2008, 08:46 PM
I've shot the M&P and it didn't feel right to me. Plus the takedown procedure to release the striker- why not drop the mag, ensure clear, and pull the trigger? Oh yeah, some people are too stupid to check clear before pulling the trigger or cleaning their gun so let's make it "idiot proof".

XDM- Meh. Doesn't do anything for me over my old reliable XD9. Not worth the price difference IMHO.

But gorram, they have RAILS on their box (to quote Corriea). XDM is so uber-tacticool they have rails on their box! Take that, H&K!
(Oh, and no matter how much hovering, laser-guided bullets, heated grips with massage action, or optional bidet attachements that H&K throws on their pistols, they are still clunky, overpriced, and the triggers are gritty and creepy. Plus H&K knows I suck and they hate me.)

falnovice
July 20, 2008, 08:52 PM
Different strokes for different folks. I own several XDs and one M&P....I will probably be buying more M&Ps in the future.
I like the fit and the lower bore of the M&P. I sent it off to Dan Burwell for a very reasonably priced trigger job and now it is sporting a SWEET trigger. I feel it was more accurate straight out of the box then either my XD9 or XD9Tac.
I haven't handled the XDM yet, but I am not the biggest fan 40SW anyway.
As far a tech issues, they definately had some teething issues early on. Most of them seem to have been addressed in the design.

Where the deign goes, we'll see. I sold the Glocks for the XDs....not quite ready to sell the XDs for the M&Ps....but maybe in a couple more years.

But what do I know, I still prefer the Hi-Power to all of them. :what:

Chris Rhines
July 20, 2008, 11:14 PM
My only complaints about the M&P (I have two identical ones):

- One of my M&Ps has a tendency to rust. I have to wipe it down with a silicon cloth after every use. So far, it's not enough of an annoyance to get fixed. Oddly, my other M&P does not have this problem.
- I don't like having to drive a pin out to remove the extractor. Just me.

That's really about it. I shoot the M&P better than any other polymer-frame service pistol on the market, and that's what counts...

- Chris

goon
July 21, 2008, 12:12 AM
I had an M&P for awhile, full sized without the mag disconnect safety.
Honestly, it was a decent gun. The only failures I had with mine were that it didn't like Winchester White Box ammo but that apparently didn't matter to the guy who bought it from me.

vanilla_gorilla
July 21, 2008, 02:11 AM
I'm a 1911 guy and have been for some time now. I have owned 2 Glocks, and got rid of one of those because it was unreliable and just didn't fit me well.

I tried the XD...meh. For as ergonomic as Springfield claims they are, it felt like a Glock with a beergut. (And I am a Springfield Armory fanboy.)

Tried the Beretta...not impressed at all.

Tried the H&K USP series and it was just OK.

All in all, I laughed at the other guns at the range and then went and put my 1911 in my holster and carried it until the next range trip.

That ended the day I tried an M&P 9mm. Holy cow! It felt great! It pointed as naturally as my own finger and it felt like it was a part of my own hand. I just had to think about where I wanted a bullet to appear and that's where it went. Even double taps as fast I could run the gun and on the move were terrific. I was managing to get my double taps though the same hole from the 3 and 5 yard lines. Mere seconds would have a B-27 target with one big hole where 18 rounds had gone. It was like magic for me.

All the reasons I mentioned above were plenty to cause me to start carrying my M&P, and now it's my daily companion. No dropped magazined, no malfs (my brother managed to get one the other day with it, but the round would not drop into the chamber even with the barrel removed), no hits, no runs, no errors.

Take my story for what you paid for it.

the naked prophet
July 21, 2008, 01:08 PM
My wife has an M&P .40 compact. About once per mag, the slide would not fully return to battery. The round chambered fine, but the barrel didn't quite lock up, it remained about 1mm below lockup. It was far enough out of battery that the striker didn't fall completely, but close enough that the striker left a tiny dimple on the primer, off-center by 1mm due to the barrel being low.

If you caught it before pulling the trigger (hard because the slide is only 1mm to the rear, it looks normal at a glance) you could tap the back of the slide and push it into battery, then it would fire normally. Also, if you pulled the slide back about 1/4 inch with a round in the chamber, the slide didn't have enough spring power to return to battery. I checked, and the recoil spring was actually too short to exert any pressure on the slide when in battery. It wasn't short enough to rattle around, but it wasn't long enough to finish chambering a round either.

The slide stop also engaged with rounds left in the mag.

The barrel was also peening where it impacted the extractor, and a significantly raised area had formed on the outside of the barrel hood (not in the chamber).

S&W sent us a prepaid shipping label, and we sent it in.

They returned it, having installed a new slide stop spring. That was it. It no longer locked the slide open on a partially full mag. It did keep doing the FTRTB.

I filed off the raised area on the barrel and sanded it smooth. I cut down a glock recoil buffer (fits between the recoil spring and slide) to compress the spring a little when the slide was in battery, and haven't had any problems since. But S&W ignored the problem with the recoil spring and the peening barrel.

That said, the trigger is almost as good as the trigger on a Glock, the grip is widely adjustable and is one of the few handguns my tiny wife can actually hold much less shoot comfortably. If they could work out the reliability issues, I'd buy one. However, I am quite comfortable with my Glock 19.

Frizzman
July 21, 2008, 01:24 PM
I have had a M&P 9X19 for several months. I really like it as far as plastic pistols go. I have had numerous Glocks of every size frame and several XD's and a H&K USP as well as a Beretta PX4 and also a Ruger P97. Of them all, the S&W has the best ergonomics. I shoot amazingly well and fast with the one I have. I have fairly small hands and with the small backstrap, it fits my hand the best of any high capacity pistol I have shot. I have experienced no failures or breakages of any kind so far. I prefer the Tenifer finish on the Glocks for durability. I am considering trade of a Glock to get another compact M&P if this one holds up well...

skoro
July 21, 2008, 02:08 PM
But I have two M&Ps - a full size 45 and a 9mm compact. They're both fine pistols and they've digested all sorts of marginal/crummy ammo without a burp. My only knock is that they're a little on the clunky side, appearance-wise. But you sorta get "used to it." ;)

Jason_G
July 21, 2008, 02:43 PM
I like the M&P. It's boringly reliable and comfortable to shoot. I think it's ugly as homemade sin with the "swirly" lines repeated everywhere in the design, but it's a great handgun. That being said I like to have a visible hammer rather than the striker-fired setup. I also like manual safeties, which can only be had on the M&P 45 (at least to my knowledge). All of that being said, I'd prefer an exposed hammer H&K to the M&P, but whether the price difference is worth it is up to you.

Jason

Butter
July 21, 2008, 03:45 PM
I have small hands and like the M&P as one of the most comfortable pistols I have handled. I own several XDs as well and like them too. Sold the Beretta Storm....small back strap is still not very small and the trigger was a reach, but no actual problem with the Storm.

Issues with the M&P? The trigger is gritty and worse than any of the XDs that I own. Also had to send it back after the first couple of uses while trying different ammo since it kept ejecting brass on my head. Took a look in the slide and could see where brass was banging on the side before getting tumbled out of the gun....up, up and then straight down. S&W quickly fixed it and turned it around.

But the trigger is still gritty, though getting marginally better. If not for the trigger, it would be a favorite range toy.

wolfammoisok
July 21, 2008, 10:13 PM
My M&P9c had some problems, the slide did not lock back after the last round so I sent it back (ok since), and then it would not feed hollow points 100% (sent it back again and got a new barrel with a polished ramp), and now I traded it in.

MarcusWendt
July 23, 2008, 01:51 PM
I own both the 40 and the 40c M&P. I have had at least two or three of the problems listed in previous posts. Each time S&W was all over it. Very fast service.

I haven't taken it out since it's last trip back to Springfield, but I am eager to.

Though I have had problems, I will say I've never had such a string desire to make a gun work right.

I love the way if feels, I love the accuracy, I love the way it tames the felt recoil of the .40 S&W.

I've never been a big S&W fan, but despite the issues I've encountered I love these M&Ps.

I also own Sigs, and XD, a Walther and a few others. The M&P is on par with any of them. I do like my XD, but the love didn't take until I shot it in competition.

raz-0
July 23, 2008, 05:13 PM
Ok, I'll bite. The XD-M is NOT ahead of anyone. It does however represent a solid refresh of a design that keeps it very current with some of the better design features of handguns.



However, three years later the XD is still outselling the M&P in the civilian market, despite Smith's considerably greater national and worldwide marketing "muscle".


where are you getting your numbers, I'd like to see the source. You also seem to have missed all the advertising SA is doing. In just a coupel of months it dwarfs everything I have seen for the M&P in two years.

1. Noticeably better trigger on the XDM. Shorter take-up and reset, lighter and less mushy. Best trigger of any polymer pistol I've ever fired.

Clear advantage XDM.


XD triggers can be made light and smooth, but I have yet to experience a single one that wasn't mushy. The M&P triggers, box stock and worked on, all have a positive break you can feel. If you don't mind the mush, the XD trigger is probably better out of the box. If you don't like mush, it is not a clear advantage. For the improved reset, you are paying for it. My M&P 40 with a trigger job, new sights, and a match barrel runs me about the same as the XD-M is going for at the moment. If they drop the price after the initial rush, then it is a different issue.

When talking price, the M&P 9pro is a better comparison. good or bad triggers come down to what you like/dislike most in a trigger, and which one addresses it better. Me, I can't stand mush and I like a positive feeling reset. The M&P does that better.


2. Noticeably superior match barrel that comes standard. Yes, you can put a match barrel in an M&P---but it's an OPTION that you will pay substantially extra for.

Clear advantage XDM.


Not really, like I said above, you pay for that barrel. the XD-M costs more than a regular XD. You want an apples to apples comparison, the 9L or the 9pro are more appropriate, and they are producing some GOOD accuracy out of the box. I doubt the XD-M is doing much better. It's an OPTION you are paying for on an XD or an M&P. Both offer it from the factory. The two brands, however, differ on their opinions of where it is best to introduce that option.


3. Higher magazine capacity. I typically carry three magazines, which gives me three extra rounds with the XDM. Every little bit helps if and when a critical situation arises.

Advantage XDM.


It is only an advantage if 1) it doesn't come at the cost of making the grip too big for you. 2) it doesn't hinder concealability. 3) the mags fit in available mag pouches. 4) For things like USPSA, that the total capacity with basepads that adhere to the 140mm rule is actually greater than it's competitors. They don't all apply to the same people at the same time, but they all matter to someone. Once again, a matter of opinion. (just for the record, the capacity seems to come from added grip length like the XD45. 1 is probably better than an XD45, 2 is worse than a regular XD or an M&P, and 4 seems to be a push as they are working on 20+1 which is the same as the M&P and Glock.)


4. Better slide serrations on the XDM, and has serrations near the front of the slide that the M&P lacks---which adds up to better gripping of the slide when hands are sweaty and slippery.

Advantage XDM.


I definitely wouldn't call the serrations better. The M&P serrations are VERY usable, I have had no problems with sweaty, dirty, oily, greasy hands. As for front serrations, on something without a 5" barrel, I don't like forward serrations. You either increase the chance of getting your hand over the muzzle, or over the ejection chamber. Both can be bad. It is, however a matter of preference. I'd call it a push.


5. Better grip texture on the XDM allows for better handling when hands are sweaty and slippery. I definitely can keep a little firmer grip on the XDM on a hot summer day.

Advantage XDM.


The XDM does have better traction on the front grip strap. This will help with maintaining a good grip. However agressive grip texturing will bother a lot of people, so once again it is a matter of personal preference. Myself, I like the XDM grip texturing. After lots of dryfire practice, I might not, but the M&P front strap texturing could use some help for sure. But once again arguing a matter of opinion as if it is an absolute.


6. Magazine release button on the XDM is better located, better recessed and has better extension for easier reach than the one on the M&P. I can reach the XDM release without having to alter my firing hand grip---can't do that with the M&P.

Clear advantage XDM.


Advantage for you. Lots of folks believe the M&P mag releaste is TOO easy to reach. I personally love it. Not so much the XDs I have tried. What we like aside, objkectively you SHOULD have to repositon your hand to drop the mag, it is actually a design intent on most guns to get your finger off the trigger. Once again, you are talking ergonomics. All ergonomic issues are going to be a matter of opinion.


7. Better contruction and quality control on the XDM. Whereas early reports by owners and testers of the new XDM have indicated virtually no problems, when the M&P was released it was plagued with numerous substantive problems, some of which are still reported to be occurring by actual M&P owners.

Clear advantage XDM.

Hate to tell you, but the early on the M&P had no complaints. Then they started ramping up volume. Then the QC issues started showing up. If the XD-M becomes a high volume pistol, we'll see if it fares better. The original Xd certainly did not and has a number of substanial issues of both a QC and engineering nature.


Then there are some places the XD falls down. Most prominant is spare parts. You can't get most replacement parts. With the M&P, there are only a couple of replacement parts you CAN'T get. Glocks and 1911s still beat them both by a landslide there though.

The XD-M is a nice improvmeent. Better grips, better sights out of the box, improved reset, less reciprocating mass (one of the things I disliked most about the 4" and 5" XDs), and better capacity for their .40S&W offering.

Defensory
July 23, 2008, 07:12 PM
Posted by raz-O:
Ok, I'll bite. The XD-M is NOT ahead of anyone. It does however represent a solid refresh of a design that keeps it very current with some of the better design features of handguns.

You're wrong. The XDM IS ahead of the M&P as a stock production, "out of the box" polymer pistol. I own the M&P and have fired the XDM on multiple occasions, thus am able to intelligently and honestly make a comparison.

I don't recall you mentioning ever having fired the XDM, and I believe you certainly would have if you had. Also, the link in your signature to the "M&P forum", does lend strong credence to the belief that your dubious defense of the M&P is based purely on a personal bias.

where are you getting your numbers, I'd like to see the source. You also seem to have missed all the advertising SA is doing. In just a coupel of months it dwarfs everything I have seen for the M&P in two years.

I'm not required to do your research for you. Virtually any gun industry trade magazine or other industry trade source can verify that fact. Having been a dealer on the gun show circuit for years, I talk to a substantial number of gun dealers in several states. They inform me that the XD consistently outsells the M&P in the civilian market.

XD triggers can be made light and smooth, but I have yet to experience a single one that wasn't mushy. The M&P triggers, box stock and worked on, all have a positive break you can feel. If you don't mind the mush, the XD trigger is probably better out of the box. If you don't like mush, it is not a clear advantage.

A classic intellectually dishonest "bait and switch" on your part. We're clearly talking about a comparison between the XDM and M&P triggers, while you are making an irrelevant comparison with the STANDARD XD trigger. The XDM trigger is not nearly so mushy as the standard XD, due to the shortened take-up and reset. And the XDM trigger is noticeably SUPERIOR to the M&P trigger, which I just happen to own and have fired many times.

For the improved reset, you are paying for it. My M&P 40 with a trigger job, new sights, and a match barrel runs me about the same as the XD-M is going for at the moment. If they drop the price after the initial rush, then it is a different issue.

The improved reset of the XDM trigger isn't responsible for the entire price increase of the XDM, thus your point is moot. Also, we're talking OUT OF THE BOX performance and features here. The M&P doesn't even come close to the XDM out of the box.

Aftermarket add-ons will mean the M&P is no longer an "out of the box" gun, and having to send an M&P off for expensive additional work means it won't be there to protect its owner for several weeks. Something to definitely think about, especially when you consider that a lot of people only own one handgun.

When talking price, the M&P 9pro is a better comparison. good or bad triggers come down to what you like/dislike most in a trigger, and which one addresses it better. Me, I can't stand mush and I like a positive feeling reset. The M&P does that better.

I see you're back to the old "bait and switch". Again, you're comparing the M&P to the STANDARD XD trigger, NOT the XDM trigger. The shortened take-up and reset of the XDM, is considerably less mushy than the standard XD, and is a superior overall trigger compared to the M&P.

Not really, like I said above, you pay for that barrel. the XD-M costs more than a regular XD. You want an apples to apples comparison, the 9L or the 9pro are more appropriate, and they are producing some GOOD accuracy out of the box. I doubt the XD-M is doing much better. It's an OPTION you are paying for on an XD or an M&P. Both offer it from the factory. The two brands, however, differ on their opinions of where it is best to introduce that option.

You're the one making apples to oranges comparisons. We're comparing the XDM to the M&P---OUT OF THE BOX. Once you send off a weapon to have aftermarket parts installed, it's no longer an "out of the box" weapon. And if it's a person's only firearm, and they have to send it off for several weeks to the factory or a custom outfit, then they're without protection for a considerable amount of time. NOT good.

redfireftr
July 23, 2008, 07:51 PM
My first pistol was a M&P 40 and I loved it. I don't have any complaints with it. There were 0 FTF's is in a mix of 500 rnds of different types of ammo. I sold it but wouldn't be surprised if owned another one some day.
Also, S&W's customer service was great. There was a cosmetic problem when I purchased it new and they replaced the frame and sent it back to me no questions asked.

Robert14
July 23, 2008, 07:52 PM
I've got the P30 & would not recommend you give up your M&P for one. It only functions reliably with hot ammo. Mags are outrageous in price,
when you can find them. Night sights not avaliable except for Heine. Short grip for average size hands. Over 50% more expensive than the M&P. Now, the HK45, that's another story!! Won't give mine up for anything!!

ceadermtnboy
July 23, 2008, 07:56 PM
Defensory, I like your enthusiasm for the XDM. However I totally disagree that it is so advanced over other pistols. I have shot the XDM and I own the M&P. I can tell you a lot of the area's you are giving the clear advantage to the XDM are very subjective. Many people will shoot (as I did) the M&P more accurately than the XDM. It boils down to the individual finding out what features in different pistols work best for them. I personally hate the grip texture of the XDM ( I like the original XD grip better). I also dislike the the positioning of the mag release on the XDM, for me the M&P is easier for me to access. Finally you can not prove that the construction and quality are better on the XDM. I do know that the M&P is made in America and unlike Mrs Obama, I am proud of my country and also proud of the craftsmanship that our American workers turn out at S&W. I would also question the design of the XDM's slide running on a plastic frame in the rear of the pistol. With the M&P the slide runs on hardened ss inserts molded into the frame. To me this deisgn would be an improvement over the XDM. I really cant put the XDM over the M&P. I would like to know any inherent problems with the M&P's design, but really not so much as personal preferences. I still would like to know how the M&P compares to the HK P30 , or the Berretta Storm.

falnovice
July 23, 2008, 08:20 PM
One consideration in the comparison is: which gun to which?

In my mind the M&P9 would be compared against the XD9.
The M&P40 against the XD40.
The M&P45 against the XD45.

Therefore we have a bit of a problem with the XDM from my perspective....there is no comparable M&P to run against it, other than the M&P 9 Pro from the Performance Center....and even then we are not in the same caliber.
In this debate there will always be the cost comparison as well, especially if comparing the out of the box M&P40 to the XDM. For me this is a throwback to the days of old when USP'ers and Glockers went after each other.

USP: "My gun is more accurate!"
Glock: "IT cost 400 dollars more.....let me dump four hundred in mods on my Glock and we'll see."

Same issue today. For the difference in price I could send that M&P40 off to Dan Burwell for a trigger job (very very nice btw) stippling, and match barrel. For my use and my hand size, I have NO ISSUES with the mag release, or the slide serrations. (I HATE front serrations)

As far as all the gun dealers......can't say much for that. I will say none of the shops around here have the XDM and while all of them have SOME XDs there is certainly more M&Ps. Noticed this at the last gun show as well.....however such a comparison may be a little silly as there were more Glocks then M&Ps and XDs combined.

As far as the arguement that having would done on a pistol is somehow out of bounds because it may be the onlyt gun they have......I doubt many of use here are in that position my friend. :D
But frankly, if someone was in that position of needing to buy the ONE gun....I would probably recommend a plain XD9 first. A lot more history, good testing and use background info available. I have never seen a serrious issue with a XD9 Service.....I have seen XD40s have issues a couple of times.

Sidenote: Defensory, I know you've been here for a few months and aren't exactly new, but you may want to tone down the responses. You come across as very combative "I'm right and you're stupid" sort of poster.
Sit back, relax a bit and take the High Road.:)

raz-0
July 23, 2008, 09:36 PM
Wow defensory, troll much?

Seriously, I was comparing and out of the box XDM vs and out of the box M&P 9l or M&P pro. They'll match it on accuracy, and the triggers, although not as good as a proper trigger job, are better than the standard M&P. They aren't custom work. You can go to gunbroker, or budsgunshop.com or many locla gun stores and buy one. No trip to a gunsmith, no trip to the factory.

Custom work doesn't count because it costs more, but the XDM costing mroe doesn't count because it is out of the box. Well, hell then. THe XD-M DEFINITELY sucks then when you start bringing the $2000+ factory pistols into the picture. Lots of fancy 1911s and 2011s, and p210s and more truly exotic firearms lurk in the realm of price being no object. Me, I care about value. The M&P, M&P pro, and M&P L are all a good value. I figure in about 6-8 months, the XD-M will be too. But right now it has a premium attached.

They have match barrels, they have a reduced trigger reset as well, and they cost less than the XDM. They also have an extra inch of sight radius, which helps a lot with actually making use of the inherent accuracy of a firearm.

Personally I like choice. There is not one magically superior firearm. Most of the things you go on about are questions of ergonomics. Ergonomic superiority, other than being very configurable, is ALWAYS a matter of personal opinion. Even glock will learn that someday.

As for your sales numbers. You made the claim, it's your job to prove it. anecdotal evidence from a friend of a friend in the business doesn't count. Right now your claim boils down to because you said so. Which doesn't hold water with anyone.

As for getting to shoot and XD-M, I'm in NJ. In that case there is one round too many in each magazine for anyone to sell it here. Sucks, but it is the case until they get a 10 round SKU for it out. Like I said, the extra capacity isn't a desirable trait by everyone.

boomstik45
August 21, 2008, 10:57 PM
Looks like Defensory didn't have what it took to back that up.....

All opinion and conjecture to me anyway.

Babalouie
August 22, 2008, 11:19 AM
Geez Mountain Boy which of your children is the best? What's the best song ever written? What's the best meal?

I love my M&P but of late I'm closest to my 1911 commander and enjoying it the most. Neither will ever be forsaken.

cornman
August 22, 2008, 03:44 PM
The M&P does have a "stellar track record". Period.

19-3Ben
August 22, 2008, 04:21 PM
I have both the M&P and the M&Pc and I can tell you I have a MAJOR complaint, and a reason that I hate them like you can't believe.

Reason i hate the M&P:
They eat up all my damned ammo!!!!

Since i got them, i can't seem to hold on to ammo for more than a few weeks at a time if that long!!! They have a voracious appetite.

Other than that, they are my favorite semi-autos.

ceadermtnboy
August 22, 2008, 08:53 PM
Babalou, I only have one child, I am partial to our National anthem, and it's hard to beat a good ol cheesburger with a chocolate shake. I get your point, and have decided that the M&P is fine and have overcame my hankering for a H&K. Now If I can just get over my current desire for the Beretta M91A.

mbott
August 22, 2008, 09:23 PM
Same reason here as others have posted: I now own three of the *^&%* things and I'm hoping I'm able to stop at that number ... for at least a little bit.

--
Mike

nalioth
August 22, 2008, 09:39 PM
Remember, Smiths are offering a 2 mag rebate now, I've always wondered why 'bribes' are needed to sell "quality" firearms.

I mean, if they wanted to make it attractive for purchase, why not bundle the extra mags with it?

I am not a big fan of "mail in rebates" ( of any kind ) and do not like getting on the marketing list when doing so ( where your info is sold for tenths of pennies to other marketing agencies ).

mbott
August 22, 2008, 09:55 PM
No bribe necessary, here, but if S&W wants to provide me with a free range bag, rebate cash and extra magazines, who am I to refuse. :)

Hardy rules.

--
Mike

Rambosky
August 23, 2008, 01:42 PM
I didn't see anyone mention the Walter P99. I chose it above all the others.

jocko
August 23, 2008, 03:09 PM
the xd's do nothing for me. No offense to them either, they just don't do a thing for me.

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