Is the 1911 an out dated LEO firearm


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AWMP
July 19, 2008, 08:57 AM
Ok ok , target in the open I got it.
But is the 1911 an out dated LEO firearm?
There are many high capacity .45s on the market (XD45, H&K, Glock, Smith Wesson, etc), does the mag capacity show the 1911 (8rd) weakness?
Pros and Cons?

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ojibweindian
July 19, 2008, 09:04 AM
In my opinion, the 1911 has, as pros, the best trigger of any other semi-auto design, great pointability, good ergonomics, a nice flat profile for easy CCW, lots of aftermarket parts available, and is as reliable as the fabled Glock.

It's biggest drawback is limited magazine capacity. That, however, can be rectified to a degree by doing reload drills on a regular basis.

As far as it being outdated as an LEO firearm, I'd say no. It's still a very capable defensive weapon for those who put in the practice time.

skoro
July 19, 2008, 09:14 AM
My take is that cops want a double action, mainly to prevent accidental discharge.

NGIB
July 19, 2008, 09:18 AM
Why is magazine capacity the factor so many use to judge whether a gun is good or bad? If you can't shoot correctly, 30 round mags are useless. I feel quite comfortable and safe with 8 rounds of .45 as I know I can put them where I need to. I'm not a fan of spray and pray...

The Lone Haranguer
July 19, 2008, 09:59 AM
"Outdated" is not the word I would use. I think it is because most LE agencies issue firearms and - rightly or wrongly - they largely prefer DA or DAO guns for liability issues.

gcrookston
July 19, 2008, 10:16 AM
as much as I like the 1911, it has been out-dated for many years. I would take a Sig 220 over a 1911. You can carry a 1911 locked and cocked, but I'm unfortable with that. a P220, you can carry a round chambered, hammer down and ready without worry

Dave Markowitz
July 19, 2008, 10:19 AM
I hope it's not outdated. My local PD (Plymouth Township, PA) issues Kimber 1911s as the standard pistol.

420Stainless
July 19, 2008, 10:34 AM
Ordinarily I disdain the capacity argument and haven't even bothered to purchase 12 round mags. for my 229. However, as part of their job LEOs sometimes might go into situations (intentionally or unintentionally) that involve multiple bad guys. IMO High cap might buy enough time for a patrol officer's partner or backup to get involved before a reload is required. Unlikely, but I would want more if my job involved pursuit.

As a civilian, my only worry is getting away. Also, for LEOs that work in teams, the 1911 appears to be ideal as so many units appear to prefer them.

chieftain
July 19, 2008, 10:37 AM
Why is magazine capacity the factor so many use to judge whether a gun is good or bad? If you can't shoot correctly, 30 round mags are useless. I feel quite comfortable and safe with 8 rounds of .45 as I know I can put them where I need to. I'm not a fan of spray and pray...

More rounds are ALWAYS better than not enough. You need 1 more round than your fight will last. (I don't want my weapon locked back and empty.) But good or bad, nope, just another consideration.

I carry a Colt Government with a 7 round mag, daily for CCW, and around the house. I compete with 8 rounders or 10 rounders depending on the competition. IDPA vs USPSA vs NRA Bullseye vs Steel Challenge (yea I know USPSA owns Steel Challenge now), bowling pin shoots etc....

With that said, I do like to carry one of my Highpowers from time to time. I frankly do not shoot any differently with the 14 rounds in the Browning than I do the 8 in the Colt.

A lot of folks trying to justify their lower round count in the weapon they carry, by ASSUMING anyone with one more bullet in their gun of pray and spray shooting. Why? You and I prefer a lower round count weapon. That's the end of it.

When in a firefight you can control your fire with 5,6,7,8 or 9 rounds why are YOU unable to control your weapon if it has 16 rounds in it?

I have seen as many folks spray and pray with a revolver as I have with a Glock.

It's about the man not the weapon. Your apparent inability to control yourself when you have a high capacity weapon is your problem not mine.

I used to shoot at the same club as Robby Leatham. He shoots his XD as well as his 1911, he doesn't spray and pray with his high cap guns. Suggest some training for that apparent problem of yours.

I think, and apparently a bunch of other folks still believe there is a place for a reliable 1911 full size pistol in law enforcement.

May I recommend the 10-8Forums. A whole bunch of LEO's who most are pro 1911. The fellow who owns it is a IIRC south Florida LEO still on the job, and a noted 1911 Gunsmith. Hilton Yam.

He offers good advice, and the good and the bad of the LEO selecting and carrying a 1911.

10-8Forums.com

Go figure.

Fred

jesse485
July 19, 2008, 10:37 AM
I would think it's outdated for simplicity's sake. First, the officer must undo a retention strap + whatever other retention devices they choose for the holster, and then have to flip off a safety. After all that, my fingers would be tired.

bodyarmorguy
July 19, 2008, 10:56 AM
Hi all.....just joined and this was the first thread that I came to. Fingers tired after releasing a retention strap and disengaging the thumb safety??? Sounds like you might be too tired to shoot after one pull of a double action trigger system as well.

The 1911 is actually making a big comeback in law enforcement. I started in law enforcement in 1985 carrying a 1911...carried HK P7's, Glocks and the ocassional Browing Hi Power but always seemed to go back to a 1911 and had one on my hip the day I retired in December 2006.

Many agencies authorize the 1911 and more and more agencies are making that their issue sidearm, Tacoma, WA for example.

I don't think it's outdated and it's far from dead.

chieftain
July 19, 2008, 11:04 AM
I would think it's outdated for simplicity's sake. First, the officer must undo a retention strap + whatever other retention devices they choose for the holster, and then have to flip off a safety. After all that, my fingers would be tired.

The way I shoot my 1911's and my carry Colts, the way or manner in which I grip the weapon "automatically" turns the weapon 'on'. I don't flip anything. AS I grasp the weapon out of the holster the safety will be off, and the weapon is turned on. No active thought is given to it.

Apparently YMMV.

Go figure.

Fred

MICHAEL T
July 19, 2008, 01:13 PM
It would work fine if officers had proper training and range time . But most police really get neither . So they are issued Glocks Cheap relieable and lots of ammo if and it always seems to be needed. .
I am still wanting to know how come a citizen defends himself with 2 to 4 rounds and police need 40 or more shots and more than 1 guy shooting.

Walkalong
July 19, 2008, 01:24 PM
Of course not.

People are just enchanted with higher capacity plastic guns that are not carried in the "dreaded" cocked and locked mode. :banghead:

Cocked and locked is just as safe as any other method when there is a round down the pipe. Maybe safer. :)

Fingers tired after releasing a retention strap and disengaging the thumb safety??? Sounds like you might be too tired to shoot Atta boy bodyarmorguy. Excellent first post. :D

Eyesac
July 19, 2008, 01:50 PM
Oh come on people, if you can accomplish with a 1911 what you can accomplish w/ a high cap poly pistol, why not take the high cap? Unless you really like your 1911, in which case your mind is made up. What's the big deal?

jesse485
July 19, 2008, 02:21 PM
Fingers tired after releasing a retention strap and disengaging the thumb safety??? Sounds like you might be too tired to shoot after one pull of a double action trigger system as well.
I think you missed the sarcasm. Oh well, my point was that retention holsters (level 2 and 3 especially) already have you doing a series of movements just to get the gun out of the holster. Do you really want to add another thing to remember in a time of stress and danger? I would have no problem with concealed carry of a single action, but I carry with only open top holsters, so no hand tango to get my gun out.

variablebinary
July 19, 2008, 03:09 PM
Yes, it's outdated, but it isnt obsolete. There is a difference

Why is magazine capacity the factor so many use to judge whether a gun is good or bad? If you can't shoot correctly, 30 round mags are useless. I feel quite comfortable and safe with 8 rounds of .45 as I know I can put them where I need to. I'm not a fan of spray and pray...

It's not a matter of spray and pray. You want to be as far from slide lock as possible if you need to clear leather. Having more rounds prepares you for more scenarios.

Example: Trolley Square, Utah. Within a couple of seconds the off-duty cop came to the conclusion that his 1911's capacity wasnt up to the task at hand. He said something like "I've only got 8 rounds, I cant be doing this". At that moment, all the fables about .45 "knockdown power " and big holes went out the window. It was all about capacity at that moment.

Vern Humphrey
July 19, 2008, 03:19 PM
There is an advantage to magazine capacity -- as Farnham points out, the most common stoppage in action is running out of ammunition.

But that's not the only factor to consider. Ergonometrics, reliability, convenience, and effectiveness also factor in.

When you add it all up, the M1911 is certainly as good as anything out there.

MrAnteater
July 19, 2008, 03:34 PM
The 1911 has stood the test of time. Is it outdated for LEO use?

I think from a cost standpoint it is. I don't know what agencies pay for firearms in bulk purchase but I know as a LEO you can purchase a new Glock for a little over $400.

You certinally aren't going to find new 1911's for that price.

The issue of magazine capacity and weight also go against the 1911.

Bottom line is the 1911 has had it's day and though there might be some sporadic resurgence in the LEO community, better technology has replaced it.

FlyinBryan
July 19, 2008, 03:44 PM
the swat force one small town uses them exclusively, in fact, the swat team then recommended them to other divisions in the town.

the town is l.a.

One of the most elite tactical law enforcement units in America, the LAPD™ Special Investigation Section - or SIS - was formed in 1965. Specially trained in surveillance, these plain-clothes professionals often stake out and covertly follow violent criminals until they can make an arrest during the commission of a crime. SIS is also a trendsetter, developing tactics and testing special weapons before they are generally issued. Due to the nature of their assignments, SIS Detectives depend on their pistols to a much greater extent than uniformed officers or tactical team members.

In 2002, LAPD™ SWAT selected a Kimber 1911 .45 ACP as their duty pistol, purchased approximately 160 units and placed them in service. In 2005, SWAT Team members put SIS Detectives in contact with Kimber, and the Detectives requested that Kimber work with them to create a duty pistol that met their high standards and unique requirements. The stated reasons for making this change were the superior accuracy of the 1911 platform and SWAT's satisfaction with their Kimber pistols. In development for over two years, Kimber SIS pistols are now a reality.


for what its worth, i think its still the finest pistol platform ever designed.

they do now have hi-cap versions of the design, with the same trigger operation.

RNB65
July 19, 2008, 03:46 PM
Yes. A .40cal Glock (or similar poly gun) carries nearly twice the firepower at half the weight and is just a reliable.

The 1911 was an amazing gun in its day a century ago. Today, it's still a great range/competition/self defense shooter. But as a primary LEO sidearm, it's purely an anachronism.

FlyinBryan
July 19, 2008, 03:54 PM
I think from a cost standpoint it is. I don't know what agencies pay for firearms in bulk purchase but I know as a LEO you can purchase a new Glock for a little over $400.

You certinally aren't going to find new 1911's for that price.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104663854

i know it says 425, i just picked the first one on the page.

The issue of magazine capacity and weight also go against the 1911.

8 is enough for me, and my commander weighs 26 oz.


100 years later its still the best combination for accuracy and reliability.

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 04:25 PM
The 1911 outdated for LE work?! Here's only a small sampling of the elite LE entities that currently issue the 1911 as their primary carry handgun:

LAPD Special Weapons and Tactics--The nation's most elite police SWAT team.

LAPD Special Investigation Section--An elite plain clothes unit that specializes in bringing particularly dangerous criminals to justice.

FBI Hostage Rescue Team---The nation's most elite federal HRT.

Though they're not LE agencies, elite military units like U.S. Army Delta Force and U.S. Marine Corps Force Recon still use the 1911 extensively.

outerlimit
July 19, 2008, 04:32 PM
One thing that I think many people don't take into a count when considering high capacity .45's is the mere weight of 14 or so rounds of 45ACP.

Also, $400 1911's are certainly out there. And they don't seem to have any more problems than any other $400 autos.

rcmodel
July 19, 2008, 04:35 PM
It would work fine if officers had proper training and range time That's the best answer so far!

The average cop is not a gunny person, and could care less what gun the department issues him / her, as long as he / she is able to qualify with it.

A such, a cheap Glock with no safety, loose plastic sights, and an 8 pound trigger is probably as good as anything else.

You do see a lot of 1911's being used by SWAT teams and such, but those guys train and shoot more in a week then a street cop does in a year.

rcmodel

RNB65
July 19, 2008, 04:38 PM
You do see a lot of 1911's being used by SWAT teams and such, but those guys train and shoot more in a week then a street cop does in a year.

Not to mention that their sidearm is their secondary weapon. Their AR/MP5 is their primary weapon. If I'm a street cop, I want my primary weapon to carry as many rounds as possible just in case I get into a shootout with a car full of thugs and there's no backup in sight.

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 04:39 PM
Posted by RNB65:
But as a primary LEO sidearm, it's purely an anachronism.

Tell that to LAPD SWAT, LAPD SIS and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team---all of which currently use the 1911 as their primary carry handgun.

The side arm carried by all LAPD SWAT officers is the Colt government model .45-cal. automatic. The .45-cal. is far more daunting than the 9mm automatic carried by the rest of Los Angeles's Metro Division....SWAT chose the heavy-caliber weapon because it was found that on tactical deployments where lethal firepower is needed, bullet mass, diameter and momentum matter a lot more than a bullet's design, velocity and kinetic energy. It was also found that on combat shooting courses, officers could shoot better with the Colt .45 than they could with any other weapon tested.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1280896.html

RNB65
July 19, 2008, 04:45 PM
Tell that to LAPD SWAT, LAPD SIS and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team---all of which currently use the 1911 as their primary carry handgun.

See #26.

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 05:02 PM
Posted by RNB65:
See #26.

Already read #26.

Your irrelevant semantics aside, the 1911 is still their PRIMARY CARRY HANDGUN/SIDEARM.

Here's a partial list of LEA's that currently issue Kimber brand 1911's. Don't forget that a lot more LEA's currently issue 1911's produced by other manufacturers such as Colt etc.

Tacoma PD WA
LA PD SWAT
Leon County SO SWAT
Seminole TX PD
Petersburg AK PD
Raton NM PD
Ault CO PD
Kerville TX PD SWAT
Lake County MT SO
Loveland CO PD
Mentor OH PD
Umatilla WA SWAT
Whitman City SO WA
Grey PD GA
Bremfield PD OH
Florence County SC SO SWAT

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 05:08 PM
The 1911 isn't real popular among law enforcement agencies today for the same reason it wasn't in years past---your typical PD and city government is fearful of single action weapons that are carried "cocked and locked".

But there's NOTHING anachronistic or "dated" about the 1911.

RNB65
July 19, 2008, 05:11 PM
Don't forget that a lot more LEA's currently issue 1911's produced by other manufacturers such as Colt etc.

Then why haven't I seen a single cop carrying a 1911 in the last 25 years? Not one. I *always* try to identify the type of handgun a cop is carrying when I see one and I would have remembered a 1911.

Neat handgun, but as outdated as a Studebaker.

Derek Zeanah
July 19, 2008, 05:16 PM
Neat handgun, but as outdated as a Studebaker.If people still raced and won with Studebakers, then maybe.

Maybe "as outdated as a 350 Chevy" instead?

ojibweindian
July 19, 2008, 05:16 PM
Why is magazine capacity the factor so many use to judge whether a gun is good or bad? If you can't shoot correctly, 30 round mags are useless. I feel quite comfortable and safe with 8 rounds of .45 as I know I can put them where I need to. I'm not a fan of spray and pray...

Magazine capacity is important.

Multiple Assailants? When carrying my XD45 Tactical, I've got 50 rounds (three 13 round mags, and one in the pipe). If I've been chosen to have a REALLY bad day, with fate putting me up against 4 or more cretins, I'd at least like to have a much ammo as possible on me.

And if I've got someone firing at me from good cover? With 50 rounds, I can at least keep heads down without worring too much about running out.

These are things to consider in this day and age.

RobG5538
July 19, 2008, 05:31 PM
your typical PD and city government is fearful of single action weapons that are carried "cocked and locked"

Curious as to how many officers have had a ND/shot themselves with a 1911 compared to the "safer" Glock.

Then why haven't I seen a single cop carrying a 1911 in the last 25 years? Not one. I *always* try to identify the type of handgun a cop is carrying when I see one and I would have remembered a 1911.

In Richmond, CA the majority of officers I see carry a 1911. I talked to one of them about it and they like the pointability, accuracy, and the fact it has a safety to flip off. They actually have about 10 different guns they can use, too.

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 05:37 PM
Posted by RNB65:
Then why haven't I seen a single cop carrying a 1911 in the last 25 years? Not one. I *always* try to identify the type of handgun a cop is carrying when I see one and I would have remembered a 1911. Neat handgun, but as outdated as a Studebaker.

Obviously because you don't get out and around much.

I provided only a small sampling of the LEA's that currently use ONLY the Kimber brand. A lot more LEA's currently use Colt and other brands of 1911.

The LAPD Special Investigation Section is an elite plainclothes unit that does a lot of undercover work, so HANDGUNS are their PRIMARY weapons. The MP5's you mentioned just don't conceal very well, and would be a dead giveaway to criminals. :p

The photo below of an SIS officer, is from a 2008 article about the SIS. Apparently the SIS, very likely the nation's top police undercover unit, hasn't figured out that the 1911 is "outdated as a Studebaker." :rolleyes: :D

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lapd.gif

http://www.tactical-life.com/?header=nav

crashbuell
July 19, 2008, 05:57 PM
As a Deputy Sheriff in Michigan, I can tell you that I've had the chance to shoot the Glocks and the Sigs. We carry the 226 in .40 cal and I like it pretty well. We did a change over several years back from wheel guns to sig 226's in 9mm initially because of, you guessed it, capacity. We traded the knock down of the .357 for the number of rounds that a 9mm would hold. Since we pretty much do what the Michigan State Police do, we went to a .40 cal when the MSP were reporting problems with no penetration or knock down from the 9mm's, so we stepped up to the .40cal. I think what can be agreed to here, is that as times change, the weapons we carry also change. As far as pistols in law enforcement goes, my sidearm is a Sig 226 in .40cal, but my carry gun is a Springfield 1911 Government, so there you go.

jmr40
July 19, 2008, 05:58 PM
I have no doubt that the 1911 can be used effectively by people who know how to use them.

On the other hand I have I have never heard of anyone who survived a gunfight walking away complaining that they had too much ammo!

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 06:06 PM
Posted by jmr40:
I have no doubt that the 1911 can be used effectively by people who know how to use them. On the other hand I have I have never heard of anyone who survived a gunfight walking away complaining that they had too much ammo!

This isn't an argument about magazine capacity.

The original question is whether the 1911 is outdated for police work.

The answer is a resounding NO!

As evidenced by the hard fact that the elite LAPD Special Investigation Section CURRENTLY carries the 1911 as their PRIMARY firearm.

Vern Humphrey
July 19, 2008, 06:14 PM
On the other hand I have I have never heard of anyone who survived a gunfight walking away complaining that they had too much ammo!
Good point.

The question, though, is when do you pass the point of diminishing returns? At some point, the weapon becomes too clumsy, too heavy or otherwise less useful.

I carry a Kimber Classic with Chip McCormac 8-round mags. How much better off would I be with Paraordnance with a 14-round magazine?

I could carry my Kimber with an 8-round mag, plus one up the spout, and two 10-round magazines on my belt and have 29 rounds.

Or I could carry the Paraordnance with a 14-round magazine plus one up the spout, and a spare 14-round magazine on my belt and have 29 rounds!!

Zoogster
July 19, 2008, 06:16 PM
Tell that to LAPD SWAT, LAPD SIS and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team---all of which currently use the 1911 as their primary carry handgun.

Just as post #26 mentioned all of the units mentioned carry a much more effective primary weapon.
Honestly 99% of the time it won't matter what is in thier holster because the weapon on thier shoulder was the deciding factor.

If the sidearm is your primary weapon there is more things to consider.

Frog48
July 19, 2008, 06:19 PM
Then why haven't I seen a single cop carrying a 1911 in the last 25 years? Not one.

A deputy I worked with carries a 1911. I realize that its a lone instance, but 1911's are still out there in LE use. The office within which I worked, the deputies privately purchased their own service weapons. During my time there as a college intern, I saw a wide variety, although Glocks were by far the most common (no surprise).

If/when I decide to go into law enforcement, I wouldnt hesistate to carry a 1911.

Vern Humphrey
July 19, 2008, 06:25 PM
We have cops carrying M1911s here in Mountain View, Arkansas, where the policy is to allow the officer to carry his own weapon if he chooses.

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 06:26 PM
Posted by Zoogster:
Just as post #26 mentioned all of the units mentioned carry a much more effective primary weapon.
Honestly 99% of the time it won't matter what is in thier holster because the weapon on thier shoulder was the deciding factor.

You're wrong.

The LAPD SIS is one of the units mentioned. The SIS is a plainclothes unit that does a lot of undercover work. Thus their PRIMARY WEAPON of ANY type---is the 1911.

SIS is NOT a SWAT unit. They're mostly an undercover unit that relies primarily on their HANDGUNS. I haven't met the officer yet who can conceal an MP5 or AR on their person, especially when they're undercover wearing street clothes. :rolleyes:

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lapd.gif

Joshua M. Smith
July 19, 2008, 06:30 PM
Yes, the 1911 is outdated for law enforcement use.

However, it's outdated by policy, not design.

Josh <><

Archie
July 19, 2008, 06:36 PM
There are two reasons the 1911 pistol is not as widespread in law enforcement as it might be.

One is most officers are not shooters prior to becoming officers. People just don't grow up with guns like they did prior to the Second World War or even when I was a kid (1950s -1960s). I know many people working in my agency (one of those large federal things) who have NEVER handled a firearm other than the pistol they were trained on and issued at the academy. They do okay with it, but they're not 'gun people'.

Two is most departments shake in their little pink booties about wrongful death suits and liability litigation. The department management (those who decide about such things) know very little about guns and shooting - other than perhaps the basic training they received as officers some time ago - and are distrustful of 'cocked and locked' and are very, very distrustful of someone else with a 'cocked and locked' sidearm. Piggy-backing on this, departments don't want to spend any more money than required on training. So it's easier to train people to basically handle a DAO or Glock type handgun than a 1911 or other single-action autopistol.

One finds 1911s primarily in agencies allowing officer option (and usually purchase) of sidearms. It's mostly a money and litigation issue for the departments.

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 06:44 PM
Posted by Vern Humphrey:
We have cops carrying M1911s here in Mountain View, Arkansas, where the policy is to allow the officer to carry his own weapon if he chooses.

Which brings up another important point.

A lot of LEA's today allow their officers to carry the weapon of their own choice, as long as it is appears on the agency's "approved" list of firearms.

The 1911 is on the "approved" list of of many LEA's. Thus there are many individual officers around the country who carry a 1911, though it isn't the "official" sidearm of their departments.

The 1911 is certainly NOT prevalent in law enforcement today, but there ARE thousands of officers nationwide who still carry one.

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 06:52 PM
Archie makes some good points.

The 1911 would be used a lot more today, if it weren't for liberal city councils, politicized police commissioners, and department "higher ups" bucking for a promotion.

Drail
July 19, 2008, 07:00 PM
I think Archie nailed this one. The real question should be "Are LEOs receiving the necessary training and funding to enable them to take advantage of the 1911 design". If you're only training your people your people to a level where they're not going to injure themselves or bystanders (which we are barely doing) then the type of weapon issued is almost irrelevant.

kmbrman
July 19, 2008, 07:17 PM
As much as I really love the 1911 ,police will probably be issued a Glock 22 or other poly gun for their carry weapon. Forty is a fine round and you have greater firepower. Then too ,you can all exchange mags if one guy is out. Price is also a factor . Low end 45 is still more expensive than a Glock ,SA S&W M&P or other high cap. gun.

owlhoot
July 19, 2008, 07:24 PM
Stop and consider that even when the 1911 was clearly the best defensive handgun in the world, it was not used by police agencies. In the 1950's there were only a couple of smaller PD's in the entire nation that used the 1911. Even the Military Police in many units used the .38 special rather than the 1911. It was mandated that the 1911, when used, must be carried hammer down on an empty chamber. The 1911 was a popular weapon with the Texas Rangers but not an issue weapon. The FBI did not issue the 1911. Of course, there were no SWAT type teams in those days.

Consequently, among police units the 1911 is enjoying the most wide spread use in its history.

mavracer
July 19, 2008, 07:33 PM
Somthing that has come to mind while reading this thread.I'd wager a good sum of money that the LEO with the 1911 will be able to out shoot the one with the latest plastic fantastic.

SuperNaut
July 19, 2008, 07:46 PM
The 1911 is another example of craftsmanship and the synthesis of form and function being eclipsed by mass production and cost reduction.

Since I'm not a cop I have little interest in the requirements that may attract a police department. IOW, low overhead, mass-production, close to the mean products.

VegasOPM
July 19, 2008, 07:47 PM
Yes it is outdated... any LEO's out there, I will be happy to take that anachronistic sidearm off your hands and free up the space for you to buy a more modern piece.:p

Actually, I think that the 1911 is more of an expert's weapon. Ask the Metro SWAT guys that I shoot with that question.

06
July 19, 2008, 08:01 PM
Being an "old fart" allows me to like having to squeeze the grip, pull the hammer back, release the safety, and pull the trigger on that live round in the chamber instead of merely pulling that trigger with the hammer already back on that live round poised in that chamber. Just something about not having a manual safety holding that hammer back scares me a bit. Please don't say they cannot go off for two cops have had "accidents" that I know of. wc

crashbuell
July 19, 2008, 08:12 PM
I think it was nailed earlier when training was mentioned as to why departments go with a particular gun. I know that in my department, training time for us mainly consists of the two times a year that you go to the range and qualify. Yes, we have rapid response training for active shooters, yes sometimes we have rifle/shotgun specific days too. But these extra training days are not mandatory for everyone at my department. There are also several Deputies that I work with that don't carry off duty either, and thus, probably not avid gun folks who shoot a bunch on their own. The bottom line is, training dollars and liablility concerns are the biggest sticking points with sidearm selection by any department going. If you are in a bigger department like Wayne County or Cook County, there are more tax dollars to throw around for training and equipment. Out here, on the po' side of town, we have relatively few dollars in the department fund for training on anything but the easiest stuff to use. The Sig 226 is not a cheap unit, but it's rock solid, shoots like a cadillac, and above all, it's damn near idiot proof. Liability will make or break any decision for equipment purchases, any LEO on this forum will certainly agree with me.

BlindJustice
July 19, 2008, 08:13 PM
Hey, guys, let's keep to the basic premise
this is THe HIgh Road and personal attacks aren't
what win arguments nor BEING LOUD

1) I prefer of the two semi-autos I own, my 1911,
call it 40 years of handling them, carrying on Duty in the USN
that said I would be as comfortable with my cz 75B, 9MM
16 rd mag. - but it's 9MM it better have twice the capacity
is MY opinion on that note. I chose a Hi cap 9 with the same
Manual of Arms as my 1911 with the DA first shot option.

2) WHere I live - SE Washington State carry a Glock .45 ACP
in a rig with no retaining straps, but as you draw it has to be pressed
toward the body, and the SHeriff's Dept. carry Kimber 1911s no restraining
strap either, but a FBI cant

Kimber also gives a good discount to encourage LEO sales.

"Out Dated"? It keeps chugging along close to 100 years must be
a reason it doesn't fade away. In fact I would bet more LEO agencies use
it in the last 30 years than previously

I would call the 1911, "Venerable and Proven" Venerable as in Commanding respect by virtue of age, dignity, character, or position.
in terms of it's History and the way it's detractors take cheap shots
just to justify other platforms.

If you think your non-1911 platform is superior then let it stand on it's
own merits instead of having to fling poo at everything else just to justify
your decision.


Randall

Zoogster
July 19, 2008, 08:26 PM
Officers unable to choose thier own firearms have them chosen by police brass who are essentialy politicians.

Policy definately decides that most have the latest cheap polymer firearms with a heavy double action pull. Low cost, and perceived greater safety (unless of course you are the officer with worse aim or a lower rate of fire because you have a heavy trigger pull, and are being shot at) being the deciding factors.

Yet when you let people, including officers choose thier own weapons you will see a high prevalence of 1911s.

Many 1911 designs are the epitomy of craftsmanship, appealing more to firearm aficionados.
It is both a trusted firearm with a long history and can at the same time be a piece of man jewelry someone is proud to show off.


At the same time I think the .45ACP in many circles is outdated. For military use, many modernized nations use body armor standard, and the wide diameter low energy round is easily defeated. The same is true of a lot of cover. While the round may penetrate some cover a lot of energy is lost.
Of course while our military fights third world insurgents with low budgets that rely on hit and run (and hence are not usualy in body armor) it is not noticed, especialy since soldiers use another primary weapon for most shooting.
The only reason it is any good in the military against poor third world civilians is because you cannot use expanding ammunition, so a wider caliber makes more sense.



For LEO it can work great in some roles. Though criminals are getting more sophisticated, and low capacity and low penetration may not be the best thing for dealing with criminals in all situations.
People will claim you only need x number of shots, and anything more than x won't be necessary if you can shoot, but the reality is a lot of firefights are in an around vehicles, and even good shots are absorbed by vehicles, or slowed enough that terminal performance is drasticly reduced once they do penetrate.


I think the 1911 in .45ACP is for many roles outdated.
It is still the semi auto handgun with the highest level of craftsmanship and perfection in the American market because it is the most loved.
Not because it is the best platform.

jad0110
July 19, 2008, 08:35 PM
I've never like the term "obsolete" when applied to personal weapons. Its more about the training and mindset of the shooter, not his equipment. For example, I know some guys that are freakin' scary with an 1873 Single Action Army clone. I wouldn't call that weapon obsolete in their skilled hands, and I certainly know I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any of their lead. I'd put money on guys like that with their SAAs over someone with a Glock that can't hit the paper from 20 feet any day.

So no, I don't think it is the gun that is obsolete. Just because it has been around a while, doesn't mean it is useless. And while there may be other platforms out their that old more rounds of 45, for me and many others, there is no other semiauto out their that feels as nice in hand or points as well as a 1911.

BlindJustice
July 19, 2008, 09:07 PM
The movie Ronan I think it was called had Robert Deniro as a U.S.A. Agent going to France and it has one heck of a vehicle chase scene. Earlier when
Deniro shows up in France and reports to work with the French Special Unit -
In front of the young turks in the unit he is asked what he wants for a sidearm - he didn't bring anything into country to simplify customs staying under the radar - he asks for a 1911 - and the young bucks smirk - just as some who prefer hi cap smaller caliber platforms on this board seem to do - Deniro's character does NOT react to being called "Grandpa" and when the
SHTF Deniro draws, fires, reloads, fires again and nobody gives him any more guff or calls him Grandpa.

THat scene I'd like to see on a Youtube - with an option for the high speed chase scene afterwards, of course.

How about a 1911 - 8 + 1 and carry two 10 rounds mags for reload off the belt? and instead of an 870 - an AUto Ordnance 1927A1 with 4 30 rd stick mags, and detachable stock and cut the barrel back from 16.5. to 10 inches for handleing.

'cept in this county of open country yah want an M16 or AR15 for the wide open wheat country.

Randall

Defensory
July 19, 2008, 10:20 PM
I get a good chuckle from those who proclaim that the 1911 is "obsolete" for police and military use.

I've already documented that the LAPD SIS, very possibly the nation's most elite undercover street unit, currently uses the 1911 as their primary weapon.

In regard to the 1911 allegedly being "obsolete" for military use, elite units like U.S. Army Delta Force and U.S. Marine Corps Force Recon both currently use the 1911 extensively.

Of course there are those who will repeat the irrelevant mantra that "Well, Delta and Force Recon don't use it as their primary weapon, so it really doesn't matter to them what handgun they carry".

My response to that is to talk to members of Delta and Force Recon, as well as any combat veteran of any U.S. war, and they'll tell you that when the SHTF in battle, your primary weapon isn't always there for you.

You might run out of ammo for your primary. Your primary might cease to function for a number of reasons. Your primary may be taken from you during CQB.

In those cases, you will NEED your handgun for backup. Nobody understands that better than the men of elite units like Delta Force and Marine Force Recon.

Being brutally practical, they quite simply won't carry a handgun that is "anachronistic" and "outdated". Many of them currently carry the 1911 pistol, because they know that even in the 21st century, the tested, tried and proven 1911 will "deliver the goods" when their lives are on the line.

W.E.G.
July 19, 2008, 10:37 PM
The 1911 is not out-dated.

Its just a less-practical choice for a department that has to furnish and maintain it as a piece of one-size-fits-all agency equipment.

If the individual officer is furnishing the the weapon and the duty-gear, the officer should be allowed to carry whatever the officer is competent to operate and maintain.

MAKster
July 19, 2008, 11:49 PM
Asking whether the 1911 is outdated for police is a false premise. The 1911 has never been common for police use. From the early 1900s until the late 1980s almost all police used 38 special revolvers then they switched to high capacity DA pistols like Glock in 9mm or 40. SWAT teams use 1911s for the same reason competition and target shooters use them. A light single action trigger is always better when shooting. But for regular officers who might fire their gun on duty once their entire career, a light trigger is not the most important consideration. Simplicity and the safety of a heavy trigger is more important.

ScotZ
July 20, 2008, 01:29 AM
WOW three pages... It is one of the finest most versitle guns ever designed. It seems obvious to me that it is definatly not obsolete and any other considerations boil down to personal preferance and situational need.:confused:

The "If this,then this" game is fun to play but nothing ever gets solved:D

Double Naught Spy
July 20, 2008, 06:37 AM
While a lot of departments may go with less expensive platforms than 1911s, I find it interesting that here in north Texas, many smaller departments that allow officers to carry their own firearms have a lot of officers carrying their own 1911s.

AndyC
July 20, 2008, 07:42 AM
If a dept trains to the lowest common denominator (because of budgets or otherwise), a 1911 wouldn't be a good choice - it demands that the operator be unconsciously competent in its use.

Rexster
July 20, 2008, 02:52 PM
I got away from a 1911 duty pistol due to failing to activate the grip safety with enough certainty. Oddly enough, I could only reproduce this with my duty holster, and it was because releasing the retention devices tended to cause my hand to close in a certain way, and my skinny hands don't have much flesh in the area that presses the grip safety.

I set aside my "grandfathered" Kimbers and Colt, and switched for a while to the horrid G22, then to a P229 DAK. (My agency specs certain .40 pistols; we buy our own.) Well, with a short trigger and DAK action, the P229 is a truly great pistol for me, so I am not complaining, but would have preferred to finish my career with 1911 duty pistols.

A good 1911 can indeed be as reliable as a Glock or SIG. Capacity? Well, there is no such thing as too much ammo, but I learned to reload quickly.

Even my problem with the grip safety has a remedy. My Les Baer TRS, as all Baer pistols, is relieved at the junction of the trigger guard and front strap, allowing it to sit lower in the hand. (No, an extended grip safety alone is not enough.) I can't go back to a 1911, however, as my Les Baer was not "grandfathered" under the old policy; I must stay with the list of approved .40 DA autos.

Vern Humphrey
July 20, 2008, 04:25 PM
I got away from a 1911 duty pistol due to failing to activate the grip safety with enough certainty. Oddly enough, I could only reproduce this with my duty holster, and it was because releasing the retention devices tended to cause my hand to close in a certain way, and my skinny hands don't have much flesh in the area that presses the grip safety.

Did you have a "bump" on the grip safety? That's a common "new improvement" on M1911s.

If the bump isn't enough, it's easy to build it up with epoxy or mole foam <tm>.

MrAnteater
July 20, 2008, 09:24 PM
Trying to tell a 1911 worshiper there are better alternatives is like telling a Harley owner there are better motorcycles out there.

It falls on deaf ears and no amount of evidence is going to change their minds.

Defensory
July 21, 2008, 12:35 AM
Posted by MrAnteater:
Trying to tell a 1911 worshiper there are better alternatives is like telling a Harley owner there are better motorcycles out there. It falls on deaf ears and no amount of evidence is going to change their minds.

I don't recall anybody in this thread calling the 1911 the best gun in the whole, wide world.

The question was whether the 1911 is obsolete for law enforcement work.

The fact that Kimber 1911's are currently the official primary issue weapon of the LAPD Special Investigation Section, which is very likely the most elite plainclothes, undercover police unit in the nation---is irrefutable evidence that the 1911 is NOT obsolete for police work.

The SIS could use ANY handgun in the world that they wanted to, and they chose the 1911.

Deer Hunter
July 21, 2008, 12:50 AM
Of course it is.

I prefer my men-in-blue to all carry select-fire M4s on a daily basis.

roo_ster
July 21, 2008, 12:56 AM
I also see them here in the smaller agencies in N Texas.

chieftain
July 21, 2008, 01:40 AM
Trying to tell a 1911 worshiper there are better alternatives is like telling a Harley owner there are better motorcycles out there.

It falls on deaf ears and no amount of evidence is going to change their minds.

Yea, I know. That's why damn near every SpecOps guy who CAN gets a 1911, not a Glock.

I own, 9 1911's, down to 3 Glocks and 7 SIGS, and a bunch of Misc other pistols, and 8 Revolvers. But I CCW a Colt, and my HD is a Warrior. I have some high priced knives too, But for serious social intercourse, I carry my fathers old K-Bar that he gave me when I went in the Corps in 1966. And mine IS blooded.

I know the stuff I chose works. Is it "better" than some one else's seleciton, Maybe, maybe not. Has kept me alive before, and I have no doubt it will keep me alive in the future. Fight with what you know and can use subconsciously. In the middle of a firefight ain't the place you need to be thinking about your weapons, their use and deployment should be "automatic".

It seems a lot of you folks think because it's new, it's "BETTER" and no doubt for you they are. I prefer the advantages the 1911 offers ME, to the newer weapons. You apparently prefer the advantages the weapon you have gives you.

OKAY.

But you know how dumb us guys who have combat experience are. Not like those really smart 'REMF TACTICOOL MALLNINJA'S', who really know it all and have all the newest and latest super kool equipment. Nothing wrong with a Glock, SIG, or today a S&W M&P etc...., but I have fought a 1911, and if I have to fight again some day, I want one of my Colt's or Warriors I have set up to fight.

It ain't about evidence, it's about experience. Most of that experience was hard earned. I hope you don't have to learn the way I had to. And the way our boys in the GWOT are doing it right now.

Remember, in the end it's about SOFTWARE NOT HARDWARE.

Go figure.

Fred

Clean97GTI
July 21, 2008, 07:41 AM
If the 1911 was such a perfect gun, why did John Browning develop the High Power? :neener:

roo_ster
July 21, 2008, 07:57 AM
To capture the euroweenie market with europellet-discharging device?

Mp7
July 21, 2008, 07:57 AM
....the DA-argument is the only one against it i guess.

Unless you have a shootout with a whole gang of Terrorists,
the ammo-capacity should suffice.
And when u have the big shootout, there better be
shotguns and ARs in ya trunk.

Phil DeGraves
July 21, 2008, 09:06 AM
Teh 1911 is probably the best gunfighting tool out there. In that regard it is not outdated. On the other hand, most LE are not gun people and the 1911 is not a beginners gun. Considering the type of people that are being hired as police nowadays and the prevalent thinking that qualification equals training, the 1911 is probably not suitable for the average police officer who wears a gun mostly as a part of the uniform and not as a use of force tool.

ozwyn
July 21, 2008, 10:03 AM
I think the relevance of 1911 as a LEO sidearm is directly proportional to the training budget and range time of individual PD's.

.45 acp requires IMO more practice than other calibers for most shooters due to flinching issues.

the 1911 platform itself is fine, with newer models getting around capacity issues and improving reliability out of the box.

The real limiter is training time and commitment.

That's my internet opinion and it is worth what you paid for it.

Checkman
July 21, 2008, 10:18 AM
It's a good design. Back when we could choose our sidearms the 1911 was authorized, but the officers had to go through additional training. Those who carried them were "gun-guys".

I'm also a "gun-guy" but I went with the Sig 220. I like Sigs.

Now we all carry Glocks because that was a decision made by admin. Just like soldiers we get our orders and move out. Even Delta and Seal Team Six follow orders.

In the past few years officers throughout our fair valley have been involved in shootings. All the major departments carry Glocks and the Glocks have come through.

I don't know guys. Got no answers. Personally I favor revolvers, but those aren't returning to officer's duty holsters. Are they obsolete?

XDKingslayer
July 21, 2008, 01:29 PM
I don't think that it's an outdated LEO platform, but I do think it's an impracticle LEO platform.

It's impracticle on many levels for your basic LEO. Cost of the weapon, cost of maintenance and training, capacity and weight.

I think this proven by the mention of all the groups that still use the 1911. They're all special units. Undercover, SWAT or HRT.

It's great for those special units that have special needs, but not for your every day street cop.

That's why special units in the military use them and every other ground-pounder gets an M9.

Jenrick
July 21, 2008, 02:29 PM
As a side note I've seen a lot of guys in my agency go to SWAT and finally be allowed to carry a 1911. Guess what they can't run the dang thing. They've never carried one before, they normally didn't shoot a .45 before, and in general it's a new weapon. On top of that pistol practice is the last thing on the training schedule.

Most cops are not gun people sad to say. A 1911 is a gun person's gun.

-Jenrick

alistaire
July 21, 2008, 02:39 PM
The 1911 will be out of date when bad guys are made out of depleted uranium and carry megawatt lasers.

BlindJustice
July 21, 2008, 03:10 PM
Somebody asked
"If the 1911 was such a perfect gun, why did John Browning develop the High Power?"

John M Browning passed in 1927 working for FN. He had a proto-type or
two created but the Hi-Power was finished by his
successor. THe french had a requirement for a service pistol and asked for
the hi-capacity magazine which JMB didn't think necessary. JMB also
designed the BHP working around the patents held by Colt although JMB had
created them Colt owned them. This is why the BHP doesn't have the barrel
link or bushing, as well as a trigger that is over complicated going up and into the slide, etc. ALso the BHP didn't get an external extractor until the early
1960s as FN was trying to fix a known problem. THe french backed out of the deal and adopted a pistol which some say was the basis for the Sig P210.
The Belgians adopted the BHP in 1935

R-

Mainiac
July 21, 2008, 03:22 PM
Somebody said, I paraphrase. "I carry 50 rounds, three 13 round mags and one in the pipe." 13 rounds multiplied by 3 mags is 39 rounds. One in "the pipe" brings the total to 40 rounds, I believe. Oooops!!!

Vern Humphrey
July 21, 2008, 03:35 PM
A product of the American Public School system.

Having pointed out the error, you are now obligated to say that he was almost right, and that there are no losers in this world -- everybody wins.:p

Clean97GTI
July 21, 2008, 03:40 PM
hey Blindjustice, I know the history behind the BHP and that much credit is due Dieudonne Saive for its design.
I was just giving the 1911 guys some good-natured grief.

Cosmoline
July 21, 2008, 03:43 PM
But is the 1911 an out dated LEO firearm?

It never was an LEO firearm. It was designed as a military sidearm and has never seen much use for law enforcement. Ironically I expect there are more cops using the things now in the US than there ever were in the good old days, with the advent of paramilitary strike teams. Prior to the 1980's the double action revolver was the standard sidearm for US LEO's from coast to coast.

riceboy72
July 22, 2008, 05:04 AM
The Sheriff's Department for whom I work gave the 1911 excellent exposure as a duty pistol after being featured for many years on 'COPS' episodes. In my opinion, it portrayed the 1911 in an excellent light as it relates to law enforcement and it showed that the 1911, old as the design is, can be and is a formidable and certainly viable pistol in the modern day law enforcement realm.

They fortified this notion by showing the environment in which our Deputies work - many straight months of rain, including environments that go from the mountains to the saltwater of Puget Sound. We're not an urban environment by any means, but that hasn't affected the 1911 from seeing work whatsoever. While the 1911 is not an issued weapon, it can be carried by Deputies who qualify with it and provide their own pistol. To this day, many Deputies carry the 1911, including new recruits who, after probation, opt to use the 1911 in lieu of the issue Glock 22. This says something about it's design, and it's purpose.

As for the capacity issue, most Deputies have found the answer by using 'quad mag pouches' which carry four magazines in a vertical or horizontal fashion. For those who only load their magazines with seven rounds, that's still 36 rounds of .45, including the magazine in the gun and in the chamber. None of them complain about weight issues or having 'too many' magazines; in fact, a few carry six magazines if their waistline can afford it.

Is the 1911 obsolete? Not in this neck of the Puget Sound. Major duty belt equipment manufacturers offer their latest creations to accommodate the 1911 pistol, knowing that it has been, and probably always will be, a part of American law enforcement.

Powderman
July 22, 2008, 05:38 AM
Outdated?

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc9/jjawa3/MVC-009F.jpg

I really don't think so.

MCgunner
July 22, 2008, 06:04 AM
"outdated?" More like antique.

It's never been an LEO platform. 1911s are way picky and vary in quality to the extent that no two are alike. Finding a good hollow point load that would work in any and all guns would be neigh on impossible. Finicky, cranky POSs in my experience and the expensive ones are way over what a cop gives for a reliable and accurate and serviceable GLOCK. Cop prices on Glocks are under 400 bucks. What kind of 1911 can you expect for 400 bucks?

Fed ball, a 1911 can STILL serve the military, but even the military has opted for DA guns. I don't quite understand THAT since the military carries, or at least carried condition three. If not going into combat, there is no reason to carry any other way for a soldier except maybe guard duty in the air force or something I guess for MPs. In the past, MPs were issued DA revolvers in many cases.

Knowing the quality of training in OUR local small town police force, the thought of a 1911 being issued is, frankly, scary. Glocks are bad enough. These punk yahoos they've been hiring need revolvers and maybe only issue 'em the bullet on special occasions. :rolleyes: The last shooting they had, about 10 years ago, they shot and killed the hostage. :rolleyes: 1911s take some small amount of training. Just can't turn an airhead 21 year old loose on the public with one, not safely. Like I say, bad enough they have "safe actions". They couldn't afford a decent 1911 even if they were allowed to buy their own, not on what they pay 'em here. I know that for what I pay in taxes, they ought to be able to issue 5,000 custom race guns, but I'm sure the local officials would suffer. They wouldn't have as much money to extort from public coffers. :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I get wound up about this podunk town's politics.

weisse52
July 22, 2008, 02:05 PM
OK, so let me understand, because "YOU" (take your pick for who you might be) cannot use a 1911 it has no value as a LEO firearm.

Well, as they say "A man has to know his own limitations":evil:

Powderman
July 22, 2008, 06:36 PM
It's never been an LEO platform. 1911s are way picky and vary in quality to the extent that no two are alike. Finding a good hollow point load that would work in any and all guns would be neigh on impossible. Finicky, cranky POSs in my experience and the expensive ones are way over what a cop gives for a reliable and accurate and serviceable GLOCK. Cop prices on Glocks are under 400 bucks. What kind of 1911 can you expect for 400 bucks?


You haven't handled a 1911 lately, have you?

The vast majority that come off the shelves are very reliable. I have not seen one in recent memory that would not feed any factory ammunition that you put in the magazine.

Most, if not all, are already throated for wadcutter ammunition. The magazines available are well suited for the purpose, especially the excellent Wilson 47D, which I use. These have been reconfigured for total reliability.

Most of the commercial 1911's available will put five rounds inside of 3 inches at 25 yards. There are some notable exceptions--Rock River Arms and Les Baer will put five rounds into 3 inches at 50 YARDS. If you specify it and order the pistol, they will put those five rounds into 1 1/2 inches at 50 YARDS. Yes, I said yards, not feet.

I prefer the little horse, myself. My Colt has NEVER choked when it wasn't the fault of my reloaded ammunition or a bad mag. I have fired everything in it from LSWC ammunition, the 200 gr HG 68 over 3.9 of Clays for a practice load, to 185 grain hollowpoints over a healthy charge of Power Pistol, to Federal 230 grain HydraShok +P, to Winchester Ranger SXT, aka RA45T, which is my current duty load.

As far as accuracy, my Colt--in the exact configuration you see in the picture--was on the firing line at the National Pistol Championships, Camp Perry, OH in 1999. It is capable of 9 ring accuracy (it's definitely not a target pistol) at 50 yards.

In its most important role, though, it has never failed me. I carry it on and off duty, loaded and chambered, cocked and locked with the utmost confidence. Ironically (perhaps) I am also a HUGE fan of Glock handguns. When I go out on the water (Puget Sound) to patrol our fishing areas, I carry a G22--which is our normal duty issue. Loaded with 180 grain Gold Dots, I find it extremely accurate at 25 yards. I am also a Glock armorer, as well as a Colt armorer.

My personal preference is my Colt, though.

Vern Humphrey
July 22, 2008, 06:41 PM
The patents on the M1911 expired long ago. That, plus the popularity of the pistol, have led everybody and his dog to manufacture them.

"Everybody" might have had good quality control. But the dog didn't.:p

Hence you will find some dogs out there -- it's not the fault of the design, just of the manufacturer.

Double Naught Spy
July 22, 2008, 09:52 PM
Is the 1911 an out dated LEO firearm?

No, but some new officers are too post dated to use them! :D

Lonestar49
July 22, 2008, 10:01 PM
...

Depends on which LEO's ya talk to..

My B-I-L, Sgt with L.A. SWAT, retiring this Nov 08 after some 30yrs, would say No-Way, as that is what he started with and will end with, a 1911..


Ls

mljdeckard
July 22, 2008, 11:28 PM
Without reading all four pages, I will note that I have carried Berettas, Glocks, hi-cap para-ords, Sigma, etc, and I have chosen to revert to a single-stack 1911. Of my friends, all of them have either reverted to 1911s, or constantly moan about how they wish their wives would let them buy one.

My father recently purchased a Springfield G.I., and he was concerned about the capacity. (Before he fell in love with it.) I reminded him that it is HIGHLY unlikely that you would ever have to fire 13-15 shots in a row without a pause which would allow you to reload. And if you did, it is highly unlikely that high capacity would save your life anyway.

I have tried a LOT of other pistols, and I would keep the 1911 for just about everything.

WVMountainBoy
July 23, 2008, 11:42 AM
I'm not an officer but I do work for a LE agency. We often have open discussions about the weapons and it is rumored our department is in the market for a new issue weapon. The Smith's we have now are only 8 rounders, so its not the round count that matters. The main reason behind not going with a 1911 is the having to carry it locked and cocked. Since most LEA have lawyers on the pay roll these days I'd say DAO's are the way of the future

Chuck Perry
July 23, 2008, 12:13 PM
I've been carrying a 1911 for work for about eight years. I am allowed to carry just about anything I want, so long as it's a quality pistol and I can qualify with it. I've carried a Smith 10mm auto, SIG 357, even a Browning Hi Power. And I keep coming back to the 1911. For me, it fits my hand the best and of course the trigger can't be beat. Yeah, it's heavy. Yeah, it's a single stack. The weight really helps me manage recoil and I'm not bothered a bit by the capacity. That's what extra mags are for. Cocked and locked? So what? Seems like the current trend for the striker fired modern guns is the addition of manual safetys, just like my 1911. Single action? It enables me to be more accurate. That's good, right?
All that said, we are allowed to qual with two guns every year. Primary was my 1911. Secondary was my 5" S&W 625. I did 295/300 on the 1911. I did a 290 with the revolver, which thrilled me as it was my first time out shooting a revolver under timed qual stress. It all comes down to finding what works for you and then putting the practice time in.

AndyC
July 23, 2008, 02:00 PM
But you know how dumb us guys who have combat experience are. Not like those really smart 'REMF TACTICOOL MALLNINJA'S', who really know it all and have all the newest and latest super kool equipment. Nothing wrong with a Glock, SIG, or today a S&W M&P etc...., but I have fought a 1911, and if I have to fight again some day, I want one of my Colt's or Warriors I have set up to fight.

It ain't about evidence, it's about experience. Most of that experience was hard earned. I hope you don't have to learn the way I had to. And the way our boys in the GWOT are doing it right now.

Remember, in the end it's about SOFTWARE NOT HARDWARE.
*note to self* Buy this guy a beer sometime.

doc2rn
July 23, 2008, 02:21 PM
Easy answer, no.

C-grunt
July 24, 2008, 05:00 AM
As much as I love the 1911, I wouldnt carry it for work because of capacity. Here in Phoenix we have a problem with Coyotes (human smugglers) fighting each other. They have rolling shootouts and hit squads. Couple weeks ago 4 guys rolled up to a house...2 in front and 2 on the side, and dumped something like 100 rounds into the house using rifles. They were caught that night and openly admitted that the only reason they didnt shoot it out was because they used all their ammo at the house.

The closest Ive come to getting in a shooting on the job was when my partner and I ran into a guy who was in the middle of an armed robbery spree. When we rolled up on him he had a 12 gauge, that he just stole from someone down the block at gunpoint, and he pumped the action when he spotted us. He was behind an F150 and took a lot of explaining that dropping the gun was a good idea, though not in so nice of terms, before he gave up. When we examined the shotgun, he had loaded it but somehow jammed the thing when he was cycling the action.

Now In a situation like that, I was glad to be carrying my 16 round G22 with 2 spare mags. He had a firepower advantage and good cover.

Off duty Im just as likely to be carrying my Ruger SP101 as my Glock because Im not worried about those kind of situations.

BUT....that doesnt make the 1911 obsolete in any way. You just have to be aware of the lower round count. Plenty of LEOs use the Sig 220 and have no complaints.

P.S. the SF unit I worked with in 05 carried Beretta 92s. I asked them about it and they said the Berettas (not M9s) were accurate, reliable, held a lot of rounds, had good penetration, could get ammo at any FOB, and the 9mm worked fine if your hits were good. One guy did carry a custom Colt though.

Defensory
July 24, 2008, 05:24 AM
I wouldn't feel underarmed at all with a 1911 like the Kimber Raptor, which gives you 8+1 capacity. Which is still 50% more rounds than the standard police revolver of old, in a weapon that shoots and reloads faster than a revolver.

Two extra magazines would give you a very respectable 25 rounds total. I could live with that in a law enforcement setting.

Derek Zeanah
July 24, 2008, 06:25 AM
Now In a situation like that, I was glad to be carrying my 16 round G22 with 2 spare mags. He had a firepower advantage and good cover.If you're dealing with those kinds of situations, you'd do better with a rifle to be honest. Any rifle.

Powderman
July 25, 2008, 01:10 AM
As much as I love the 1911, I wouldnt carry it for work because of capacity. Here in Phoenix we have a problem with Coyotes (human smugglers) fighting each other. They have rolling shootouts and hit squads. Couple weeks ago 4 guys rolled up to a house...2 in front and 2 on the side, and dumped something like 100 rounds into the house using rifles. They were caught that night and openly admitted that the only reason they didnt shoot it out was because they used all their ammo at the house.

The closest Ive come to getting in a shooting on the job was when my partner and I ran into a guy who was in the middle of an armed robbery spree. When we rolled up on him he had a 12 gauge, that he just stole from someone down the block at gunpoint, and he pumped the action when he spotted us. He was behind an F150 and took a lot of explaining that dropping the gun was a good idea, though not in so nice of terms, before he gave up. When we examined the shotgun, he had loaded it but somehow jammed the thing when he was cycling the action.

Now In a situation like that, I was glad to be carrying my 16 round G22 with 2 spare mags. He had a firepower advantage and good cover.

Off duty Im just as likely to be carrying my Ruger SP101 as my Glock because Im not worried about those kind of situations.

BUT....that doesnt make the 1911 obsolete in any way. You just have to be aware of the lower round count. Plenty of LEOs use the Sig 220 and have no complaints.

P.S. the SF unit I worked with in 05 carried Beretta 92s. I asked them about it and they said the Berettas (not M9s) were accurate, reliable, held a lot of rounds, had good penetration, could get ammo at any FOB, and the 9mm worked fine if your hits were good. One guy did carry a custom Colt though.
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Which is why you also have one of these in your car...

The non-military version of Carbine, 5.56x45, M4--also known affectionately as a Colt LE6920, with 7 magazines, each loaded with 28 rounds of Federal TRU .223 ammo.

loop
July 25, 2008, 04:37 AM
In terms of capacity, how many misses do you need?

In terms of mechanics, the 1911 is a marvel of technology.

If you have not replaced a trigger in a 1911 you have no right to address the issue.

In terms of modern technology, it would be too expensive to produce today.

History will look upon the 1911 as one of the marvels of technology.

When we no longer have primers and brass casings and have moved on to the next step in technology, the 1911 will represent a pinnacle of its day. And, its day will be a century.

If you really have doubts about the state of the art in terms of technology take a look at the trigger bar in a Glock and the trigger in a 1911.

Nothing new.

C-grunt
July 25, 2008, 05:11 AM
Dereck Zeanah
If you're dealing with those kinds of situations, you'd do better with a rifle to be honest. Any rifle.

OHHH trust me. My fellow officers and I have been trying to get rifles in our patrol cars for quite some time now. We have the "Patrol Rifle" program which puts like 20 some odd rifles into patrol. But on any given day there is like maybe 3 guys in all of Phoenix with one. Not very comforting when that guy could be about 50 mile away. Luckily one of my squadmates is one of the rifle operators.

I have a nice little Bushmaster that would work well. According to the Firearms Instructors/Detail for the department when the higher ups do allow us pee-ons to carry effective equipment, it will be mandated Colts and Bushmasters.

blackcash88
July 25, 2008, 06:15 PM
It's biggest drawback is limited magazine capacity. That, however, can be rectified to a degree by doing reload drills on a regular basis.

They make high capacity 1911s these days. I have a Kimber Pro BP Ten II that holds 13+1 on board. Since it has a polymer frame, it's no heaver than an all metal single stack 1911 when both are fully loaded. The lighter frame offsets the weight of almost double the capacity of a single stack 1911. Although the grip is a little more square, it is no thicker than a 1911 with standard wood grips at the thickest point. Still has great ergonomics and awesome "pointability". Very reliable and accurate, too. The ONLY downside is it takes proprietary Mec-Gar magazines that are a bit expensive. But, it's always a trade off and I'll take the extra rounds, thank you very much. :cool:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/AlbertD/DSC01822.jpg

blackcash88
July 25, 2008, 06:24 PM
If you really have doubts about the state of the art in terms of technology take a look at the trigger bar in a Glock and the trigger in a 1911.

Nothing new.

What the hell are you talking about? They are COMPLETELY different. The 1911 has a trigger BOW and NOT a trigger BAR. The BOW is directly behind the trigger and goes around both sides of the magazine. The Glock trigger BAR is above the magazine and only on the right side of the frame.

The 1911 trigger has NO pivot axis as it moves straight back when pulled. The Glock trigger DOES have a pivot axis which it rotates around. The Glock trigger does NOT travel straight back.

Completely different systems so try again next time. :rolleyes:

Defensory
July 28, 2008, 05:38 AM
Did anybody else here watch America's Most Wanted the other night? The FBI Hostage Rescue Team was featured.

They rappelled down the side of a building, blew out a couple of fairly small windows, and entered with Kimber 1911's drawn. Makes sense---going through small windows, you don't want to be lugging a comparatively bulky M4.

I believe the 1911 gets more use by elite units like the FBI HRT and LAPD SWAT, than some people here realize.

1911 "outdated" for law enforcement?! Yeah, right! :rolleyes: :barf:

HouTexDavid
August 5, 2008, 07:30 PM
Well this won't answer the question, but it might be of interest: the next-to-last Houston PD officer killed on duty here (2003) was killed with a jammed Browning Hi-Power in his hand. He walked in on bad guys robbing a check-cashing establishment (I believe). He got off one round, which I think went into the ceiling. His BHP jammed and he was shot dead.

HPD statements in the press indicated that the gun did not fail (not exactly sure how they concluded that after the fact - the newspaper account stated that they test-fired the gun and could not get it to jam; not sure this proves no failure during the fight) Anyway, HPD spokesman was quoted as conjecturing that the officer "limp-wristed" the BHP, causing it to jam.

My point: either the gun or the officer failed. If it was the officer, perhaps not enough training? Other conjecture was that the officer may have been injured in his shooting arm. I suspect that HPD knows more, but chose not to.

In spite of such a tragic failure in a gun fight, I still think that SA "traditional" military auto sidearms - like the 1911 or BHP -- are perfectly good LEO arms WHEN THE OFFICER IS WELL TRAINED AND WELL PRACTICED.

PS the bad guys were caught and convicted and, if I remember correctly were admministered the "final and definitive" punishment. We Texans don't take well to murdering our LEOs.

chieftain
August 6, 2008, 12:09 AM
WHEN THE OFFICER IS WELL TRAINED AND WELL PRACTICED

It doesn't matter whether the officers weapon is a baton or hi tech SWAT super gizmo. Single action users must train for/with the on off switch. Striker gun users must train to keep their fingers off the trigger. P7 users must be taught to squeeze, etc... and on and on. Every system has it's problems and strengths. In the end it is about the people, not the weapons.

Less money for equipment, more money for training. In the end it is always the same answer. The Quality of the people.

It is about software, not hardware.

We have a lot of good weapons to choose from. NYPD had several Glock 19's jam during firefights too. Stuff happens. If the troops have a lot of GOOD training, and get to practice that training, suddenly that dept gets a reputation of being very "Lucky".

It so amazes me how hard lucky people work at being lucky.

No such thing as to much good training. Follow up with quality practice.

Again, it's about the software, not the hardware.

Go figure.

Fred

skinewmexico
August 6, 2008, 12:18 AM
I thought Springfield had the contract for all those HRT guns.

R12GS
August 6, 2008, 01:44 AM
If you're dealing with those kinds of situations, you'd do better with a rifle to be honest. Any rifle.
I'm sure most officers are well aware of that. The problem lies when we approach the door of a domestic violence situation and someone starts firing rounds through the front door and the officers are pinned between the garage and the entrance way. Or when officers are in an apartment complex and walking up the stairwell and the same thing happens except they're pinned underneath it for cover. You really can't walk up to every house or apartment complex with a rifle, unfortunately its deemed too offensive and scary.

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