Handled the new Kahr .380 yesterday


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 19, 2008, 06:38 PM
Yep it's tiny all right. Looks cool. It's apparently a straight blowback. Should sell for around $600 something. Feels and looks higher quality than the KelTec or Ruger, as would be expected. Like a miniature PM9. Can't say for sure I'll get one, but I'm considering it. Don't think they're actually "out" yet though - this was a manuf.'ers demo table.

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jocko
July 19, 2008, 06:53 PM
nope, it's a locked breech, just like the PM9. great gun , seen it also, Looks like late september now .

pocketgun
July 20, 2008, 04:25 AM
Now if they would just come out with a double-stack version of the P-40!

That would be quite a 3 gun CCW threat/convenience combo: P-380, PM-9, and the DS P-40 (that exists only in my imagination).

It should be a very nice albeit expensive little pocket pistol. Give them a year to work the bugs out, or be patient if you are an "early adopter".

jlh26oo
July 20, 2008, 05:07 AM
Not sure a double stack Kahr would be much thinner than other D.S. polymer subcompact frames (I.E. Walther, X.D., GLOCK etc), so it would kind of defeat their whole thinnest angle. But then again I wish more Kahrs were offered in steel, and I get told that defeats their lightest angle, so more power to you P.G. and your hope for a D.S. P40 (and my K45 and K380)!

legion3
July 20, 2008, 06:24 AM
Should sell for around $600 something


:uhoh:

JERRY
July 20, 2008, 08:04 AM
$600.00?!

should sell as few as the Rorbaughr(sp?) 9mm.

then again the Seecamp .380 has a following for a little more than $700.00 per gun.

jlh26oo
July 20, 2008, 08:30 AM
The P380's M.S.R.P. is $650, so it will sell for well under $600.

JERRY
July 20, 2008, 08:48 AM
baes on Kahr's record, i'd prefer this gun's frame/receiver be made of stainless steel instead of polymer.

legion3
July 20, 2008, 09:20 AM
retail does not = street price

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The P380's M.S.R.P. is $650, so it will sell for well under $600.


MSRP on the Ruger LCP is $330 and they are selling for both more (sometimes way more) and sometimes less. But the general going rate is $300.

The Kahr 380 will be priced high. Both on the street, on gunbroker and in most shops. I doubt well under $600 but even $500 seems high for a 380 pocket gun.

I love my LCP and for $280 OTD w/ a spare mag it was a heck of a deal, but...

I would not get the LCP for $400, the Kahr would also be awfully high at $400.
To each their own but in the current economy I can't afford to spend everywhere I would like and must be selective.

357wheelgunner
July 20, 2008, 09:55 AM
What is the point of a .380 with the same dimensions as a 9mm?

The only advantage of the .380 would be to avoid the punishing, hand wrecking recoil of the mighty 9mm...

pocketgun
July 20, 2008, 06:14 PM
What is the point of a .380 with the same dimensions as a 9mm?

It is a significant bit smaller than the PM9, not the same size. (P380 = 4.9"x3.9"x0.75" 10 oz vs PM9 = 5.3"x4.0"x0.90" 14 oz)

MSRP on the Ruger LCP is $330 and they are selling for both more (sometimes way more) and sometimes less. But the general going rate is $300.

The Kahr 380 will be priced high. Both on the street, on gunbroker and in most shops. I doubt well under $600 but even $500 seems high for a 380 pocket gun.

I love my LCP and for $280 OTD w/ a spare mag it was a heck of a deal, but...

I would not get the LCP for $400, the Kahr would also be awfully high at $400.
To each their own but in the current economy I can't afford to spend everywhere I would like and must be selective.

Unfortunately, I find the small pistols are the ones that get carried the most often. That means my life is potentially being protected by one most of the time. Therefore, if I were sold on the design, an extra $250 or so isn't going to stop me.

Not sure a double stack Kahr would be much thinner than other D.S. polymer subcompact frames (I.E. Walther, X.D., GLOCK etc), so it would kind of defeat their whole thinnest angle. But then again I wish more Kahrs were offered in steel, and I get told that defeats their lightest angle, so more power to you P.G. and your hope for a D.S. P40 (and my K45 and K380)!

By the time my carry decision ramps up toward a full time belt-carried pistol, the thinness angle makes little difference to me. 6+1 doesn't satisfy my capacity craving, especially when I can carry my Kel-Tec P-40 (9+1) or a Glock 27 (9+1) with no difference in convenience.

I would carry the PM9 both IWB and in a pocket (two different holsters) depending on my clothing and the situation, so the thinnest angle is important on that one and on the P380 for obvious reasons.

I am not saying to get rid of the P40 SS, just to add a DS model to the lineup. That way one would have common controls, sights, and triggers on all carry pistols. Shooting one at the range would be like cross-training for the other two - I like that.

jocko
July 20, 2008, 08:48 PM
somewhere, I seem to remember talking to an inside kahr person, who just winked at me when I mentioned a double stack 9mm. Their forte is the small ccw guns no doubt but many people carry IWB and OWB alot so a double stack would fill a void for kahr. as for the 380 kahr not being cheap in price. don't compare it to the lcp or kt 380, both good guns but the kahr just offers so much more that could never be done in the $300 price range or even close to it. It's got to work perfect though or at any price, it will not be acceptable.
I carry my pm9 front pocket 24/7 weight and size for me anyhow is perfect..oh and it goes bang every time to.

pocketgun
July 20, 2008, 08:59 PM
Good inside info on the Kahrs - thanks. I see you get what I am saying as far as the niche the double stack would fill: a second or third gun for the carry battery.

Glad to hear your PM9 is working out for you - you deserved some good gun karma jocko. :)

gtmtnbiker98
July 20, 2008, 10:12 PM
No thanks, I'll pass. I've already been burned by one of their PM45s, no more Kahr for me.

JohnBT
July 20, 2008, 10:54 PM
"$600.00?!

should sell as few as the Rorbaughr"
________________________________

They sell them as fast as they can make them. Every manufacturer should be so successful.

John

orionengnr
July 20, 2008, 11:14 PM
As does Seecamp with their pricey .380s.

I have had great luck with both my PM9 and my P45 and hope to get a look at one of these soon--maybe I don't need an LCP after all. :)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 21, 2008, 12:42 AM
What is the point of a .380 with the same dimensions as a 9mm?

There would not be a point to that. But this gun is significantly smaller. It's a true pocket pistol. But I agree with the person who said they'd prefer it in steel frame - so would I.

Locked breach you say? Hmmm, I guess I didn't examine it close enough. I was talking to the rep while looking. Coulda sworn the barrel was stationary - well ok - oops, sorry for the misinformation.

JohnBT
July 21, 2008, 12:06 PM
"It is a significant bit smaller than the PM9, not the same size.
(P380 = 4.9"x3.9"x0.75" 10 oz vs PM9 = 5.3"x4.0"x0.90" 14 oz)"

Made me look up the Rohrbaugh specs.

5.2" x 3.7" x .812"

Interesting

usp9
July 21, 2008, 01:08 PM
I'll certainly take a look at it when it finally hits the stores, but it's going to have to have some discernable difference or quality to woo me away from my current pocket gun.

legion3
July 21, 2008, 03:06 PM
as for the 380 kahr not being cheap in price. don't compare it to the lcp or kt 380, both good guns but the kahr just offers so much more that could never be done in the $300 price range or even close to it

What would this be to command this price?

usp9
July 21, 2008, 05:08 PM
What would this be to command this price?

A better trigger and reliability is the implied difference. Whether it will or not is the question.

cowssurf
July 21, 2008, 05:16 PM
Jocko said: "Don't compare it to the lcp or kt 380, both good guns but the kahr just offers so much more that could never be done in the $300 price range or even close to it. It's got to work perfect though or at any price, it will not be acceptable."

I'd like to know what more it will offer that would be "so much more" than the LCP or P3AT. Will it be a smart phone? Will it have GPS? Seriously, what will this so much more be? Will it be smaller? Will it hold more rounds of .380 ammo than the Kel-Tec or Ruger? Will it make the .380 bullet fly out of it faster than it would from a Kel-Tec or Ruger?

It will cost twice as much as a Kel-Tec or Ruger, so it should be twice as good, right?

My LCP is in AZ being fixed right now. I hope it works perfectly when I get it back. If it doesn't, I'll get refunded. But I haven't given up on it yet. Too many people have had no problems. People with the Kel-Tec had their share of problems, but things seem to have been ironed out. I thought the LCP would be ten times better than the P3AT. I'm willing to eat crow now. I'm starting to think, that at that tiny size, guns just are touchier, and it takes more for all customers to get a reliable one.

Of course, if all new Kahr .380s are perfectly reliable then it's worth it, right? I'm not so sure. I'd rather buy two LCPs. Odds are, one would be reliable (I don't think half of all new LCPs are unreliable, not positive, but just guessing). And if the other wasn't, I'd eventually get my refund, and be $300 richer. Of course, thats assuming the new Kahrs are 100 percent reliable. Jocko admits the possibility they may not be: "It's got to work perfect though or at any price, it will not be acceptable." Of course, this possibility didn't preclude this statement that contains no doubt from the author: "The kahr just offers so much more that could never be done in the $300 price range."

So again, I ask, what is it that the Kahr currently offers, that would qualify as so much more than the LCP or P3AT? Hopefully, it would be double the reliability, since it is double the price. We'll have to wait and see. But I'm still holding out for the GPS on it.

usp9
July 21, 2008, 07:32 PM
So again, I ask, what is it that the Kahr currently offers, that would qualify as so much more than the LCP or P3AT? Hopefully, it would be double the reliability, since it is double the price. We'll have to wait and see. But I'm still holding out for the GPS on it.


Allow me to answer hypothetically.

The Keltec is popular but has a certain reputation. It was "refined" so to speak by the Ruger and this caused great numbers of people to flock to shops to buy. It cost a little more, but most folks were more than happy to fork over some extra money for ...what... anticipated increased reliability.

Now Kahr has entered the tiny .380 field and the Kahr crowd is anticipating a quantum jump in reliability. After reading the hosts of posts about busted LCPs, a quantum jump may not be that hard to attain.

Now, just to carry this a little further... hypothetically, lets say HK announces the 10 ounce, pocket size HK380. Typically it would be expensive, say $800. There are many, many people that would purchase one because they would expect rock solid HK reliability. "But NOBODY would pay $800 for a pocket .380" many would think.

Of course we know that isn't true. Reliability IS what people pay for and do as witnessed by the year long wait for a Seecamp .380. People are anticipating the Kahr because it promises to be what the Keltec and Ruger are not, and reasonable people know that comes at a price and in this case the price is lower than the $800 Seecamp.

Only time will tell if the price to value matches.

cowssurf
July 22, 2008, 03:19 AM
Only time will tell if the price to value matches. --usp9

And that's the crux.

And by the way, the Kahr currently offers nothing at all in the .380.

legion3
July 22, 2008, 07:10 AM
My LCP is flawless and reliable (850 rounds down range) 9 different types of ammo. YMMV

Kahr would have to be really really better and much more refined to command a $500 and up price tag. IMHO

jocko
July 22, 2008, 08:29 AM
my lcp is flawless also. A great gun IMO. I am satisfied with it. That being said, if the Kahr P380 is a winner I will own one, just because. It can't be any more reliable than what my lcp is right now but I have handled it and I just liked evertyhing about it. I like all the features it offers out of the box but I don't anticipate it to be any more reliable than my now 100% reliable lcp.I have 3 9mm, guess I can have a few 380's..

jocko
July 22, 2008, 08:38 AM
cowsurff:If something cost twice as much does it mean it is twice as good? ARE HK twice as good as a glock, darn near twice as much!! If you don't know what the features are on a kahr over the lcp, I'm not going to sit here and write um down for you. It's not a low priced gun that is for sure. It has to work great , no doubt about that, course every gun introduced has to work great whether it is a $250 gun or a $1000 gun. The shooters will determine that. I like my kahrs, they are flawless, I love my lcp,it is flawless. Now there is no doubt in my mind as soon as the P380 kahr hits the market there will be some posters who will want to be the first with a complaint or major issue, as we have seen so much on the lcp forum. We have also found out from some that some of these negative nanny's don't even own that gun they are hammering. They just want to stir. It will never sell as good as the lcp, nor IMO can kahr crank them out in numbers like the lcp can either, but if its good,IT WILL SELL. I know for sure they will sell at least ONE OF THEM.

GPS will not be offered until Jan. 09, so they tell me.!!

loplop
July 22, 2008, 08:47 AM
I'm on the fence about this one. Street price (after the initial hype) should settle into the $450 range, I think. I think that's a fair price for something that doesn't need fluff and buff and running a locked breech should be nice to shoot. And it is usefully smaller than my PM9.

I'm a little torn, though, because I really prefer my j-frame for pocket carry. It's simply easier to get out of a pocket than a squared-off automatic. Some pockets are great for the PM9. Others, like jeans, are more difficult to get a draw or firing grip on. In those, the j-frame slides right out.

I've never been "made" with a j-frame, even in suit pants, so that begs the question... Do I "need" the P380? Not really.

It might be fun, though, and certainly should work for back pocket carry which I have never tried.

Re: double stack Kahr: I would buy a double-stack Kahr 9mm in a heartbeat. Perhaps K9 sized. I IWB my PM9 which simply disappears under any shirt. This is great in hot weather. But I'd love 1) a gun with a bigger firing grip for long range sessions; this gun must have the same trigger and controls. 2) I don't need to wear the PM9 in the winter, as I can easily conceal even my n-frame S&W's under a flannel or a sweater... So a little extra capacity and (again) a better firing grip would be nice.

In the end, I'll reserve judgement on the P380 until I see it. I bet handling the gun will impress; I always feel Kahr's have a nice high-quality feel, and I really like the triggers. Since I have had nothing but bang-on reliabilty from my 2 PM9's, I'd expect nothing less here. So maybe I'll try one.

But I've also seriously been considering a P45.

RyanM
July 22, 2008, 08:58 AM
then again the Seecamp .380 has a following for a little more than $700.00 per gun.

I had to check the date on this thread! $700? Since when? Direct from the factory is $795 + shipping + transfer fee + 12-18 months wait. Scalpers are getting $1300+ on auction sites.

jocko
July 22, 2008, 11:09 AM
loplop. If we keep hammering Kahr about a DS 9, HUMM maybe they read our posts. I think there is a need for at leat one DS in the kahr line. their PM45 is sure a little gun to ther eis a poster on here by the sign on of Dan O, who has a PM45 and PM9 and loves um both. He pocket carrys his pm45 and has no complaints.

Ihave posted this before but if any one has a cw 9 and wants to convert it to the covert version. this fella is super, he is fast and he is a master at the covert mods.

Accurate-Iron. com. ask for Mike

tell him bernie sent ya. He does an awsome job of srtippling to and his prices are so reasonable compred to others and no 4 or 6 month wait either. I had mine back in alittle over 2 weeks.. He is also just as good with mods on glocks to. He has my G19 in there now for the full meal deal..

cowssurf
July 22, 2008, 04:37 PM
Jocko said: "If you don't know what the features are on a kahr over the lcp, I'm not going to sit here and write um down for you."

Is the list really that long? I guess I have to take a course on Kahr and study up. I just don't know my Kahrs like I'm supposed to. Does anybody know of a Kahr instructor I can contact. I'd love to learn more about this ground-breaking, state-of-the-art gun, but I can't find a teacher.

jocko
July 22, 2008, 07:18 PM
cowssurf: Karh.com. should give you all the "facts" IF u want to know them. Who said ground breaking state of the art gun. NOBODY but you. U seem to want to stirr..

Guns and more
July 22, 2008, 11:21 PM
I just compared the cost of 9mm ammo to .380 at Wall Mart. Yikes!
Whatever you gain in your LCP you'll give back in ammo. I'll keep my Kahr PM-9.

camper
July 22, 2008, 11:25 PM
Unless you reload 380. :)

kokapelli
July 23, 2008, 12:02 PM
Street price (after the initial hype) should settle into the $450 range, I think. I think that's a fair price for something that doesn't need fluff and buff and running a locked breech should be nice to shoot.
That's about $100 lower than it will actually sell for!

It's priced at $544.99 at a local dealer who is usually close to the lowest prices available.

jocko
July 23, 2008, 12:21 PM
I don't see it coming it lopwer the $500, unless your dealer is your brother ..

PX15
July 23, 2008, 12:49 PM
JMOFartO:

I'm of the opinion that we have different takes on what a concealed carry firearm is worth..

We all know you can buy a KelTec P3AT, or the new Ruger for around $300.00. The new Kahr will list for $600 or so, and sell for that price, or more, until a full supply line eases demand, then will probably be discounted a little.

Then we have the overpriced Seecamp LWS380, which comes in a a whopping $795.00 retail, and that's what you pay for one, IF you are lucky enough to find one, and the seller isn't in a gouging mood.

Other than than you place an order with a dealer, or direct from the factory, put down a reasonable deposit and wait a year... Or more. In fact it seems that most Seecamp lovers wind up buying a new LWS32, which can be had for around $400.00, and if you are very lucky your individual dealer might have one on hand.. Other than that you have about a 3-4 month wait, even for the LWS32. But then you get the LWS32 and have something to cc until the LWS380 shows up roughly a year later.

Oftentimes it seems those folks who have both prefer the lesser drama of the LWS32 over the LWS380. In fact Larry Seecamp has both, and HIS daily cc choice is the LWS32. There are some very good self defense rounds available now in 32cal, whereas in times past there was basically only the fine Silvertip jhp round to chose from.

My LWS32, and that of my wife both prefer Speer Gold Dots.. (Feeds in both like "corn through a goose".) I will also say that in over 50 years of firearms ownership, 42 of those carrying concealed legally, I have never found a more simple, or effective way to cc than my LWS32 in a rear pocket (wallet) holster.

It's not a matter of whether or not the Seecamp (either model) is worth twice the cost of a KT or Ruger, or a lot more than the new Kahr 380.. It's just that when you are buying a firearm, or hammer, to use in a personal defense role I think you should buy the best firearm, or hammer you can afford.

I've owned KelTecs/NAA's/Beretta Tomcat/etc. and with the exception of the Tomcat (it was a first series, I think later versions were better) the other pistols were all good, and did the job just fine. So, a person with a limited budget would be well served with any of them. (Except imo the Beretta). But for those folks with the extra to spend on a personal self defense weapon the lure of the Seecamp pistol is pretty strong.

The Seecamp pistol is often the model used as representative of the top of the heap in quality and reliability in a mousegun.. The Seecamp has no higher capacity than the rest, is not the lightest of the bunch, and quite honestly is not to everyone's taste.. But the Seecamp IS the pick of the litter in the mousegun nitch, and I think pretty much the majority of firearm authorities agree on that.

I don't suggest everyone buy a Seecamp and all of the competition is crap. I know that to be untrue from personal experience. I DO suggest that if you have an interest in cc the BEST quality cc mousegun you should consider the Seecamp. LWS32, or LWS380. Many folks who were quite satisfied with the other brands of mouseguns find themselves EXTREMELY satisfied with a Seecamp..

Waiting a year+, and spending roughly $800.00 on a very tiny, extremely high quality mousegun when there are alternatives available for immediate delivery at 1/2 the price would be stupid.

My LWS380 is DUE in Oct...:D

Just personal opinion/no offense intended to those with differing opinions. In fact, I'd enjoy hearing them.

Best Wishes,

Jesse

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_8018.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_8875.jpg

loplop
July 23, 2008, 02:30 PM
I seriously doubt these will sell for over 500 when things settle down. PM9's are a dime a dozen for around 600. Their list is, what, 850? So 450 seems reasonable.

The more I think about it, the less I think I'll buy the P380. I mean, it will be cute and all... But I have a PM9 already, which is a better caliber, and plenty easy to conceal for me.

So... Unless I want to start reloading for 380acp... Sometimes when you reload you buy guns for ammo, not ammo for guns :)

jocko
July 23, 2008, 06:13 PM
just put 200 more flawless rounds through my pm9 , 13,400 . One of the nicest pocket rockets I have ever owned. I just sent the slide off to be melted and refinished in titanium gray hc finish. Just a fun gun to shoot for me anyhow.. Probably right about not needing the P380, as I will carry my pm9 24/7 but if I come across a P380, I will buy it.

legion3
July 24, 2008, 07:08 AM
I seriously doubt these will sell for over 500 when things settle down. PM9's are a dime a dozen for around 600. Their list is, what, 850? So 450 seems reasonable.

I don't believe you will be accurate in this belief, however, even $400 would make me pause to purchase.

Given how many iffy reports of the PM9 there might be a reason they are a dime a dozen for $600.

You and Jocko have good ones but several others have not. Or at least claimed not to.

jocko
July 24, 2008, 08:45 AM
yup, nice that we can talk about a gun in a pro or con way, especially when it has not even been on the market yet. Some are totally judging it by price, some are judging it by "who's making it". No doubt in my mind there will be negative reports on it when it comes out. Will we know for sure if they are truthful reports or just some person wanting attention. Seecamps seem to sell at any price . It is to expesnive???Not to the owners of the seecamps. Lots of little pocket rockets out there to choose from now, buy what you want and don't worry about what i or others say on these forums. You always read more negatives on these forums than positives. Why that is , is just the nature of the beast. If you believe all you read then indeed you might never own any gun.

jocko
July 24, 2008, 08:49 AM
PM9's have always been a dime a dozen at the price range of $550 to 650. Not an indication of a "bad gun" Guess Glocks must be a dime a dozen to, as I never see one selling for MSRP

kokapelli
July 24, 2008, 10:36 AM
Given how many iffy reports of the PM9 there might be a reason they are a dime a dozen for $600.

You and Jocko have good ones but several others have not. Or at least claimed not to.

Add me to the list of very satisfied PM9 owners.
As a matter of fact, add me to the list of very satisfied ownwers of multiple kahr pistols.

ambidextrous1
July 24, 2008, 11:09 AM
As many others in this thread have said, I can find no compelling reason to buy the Kahr .380 when it comes out; I'm well stocked with that caliber (four of them).

I hope many of you will step forward and participate in the 'beta testing' of this pistol; if it proves to be a reliable shooter, I may pickone up in 7 or 8 years. If so, it will be the first plastic firearm I'll own.

Dollar An Hour
September 1, 2008, 05:07 PM
So when is the P380 supposed to go on sale?

Will this be a softer shooter than the PM9? It's not a blowback design, which should help soften recoil, but it's very lightweight.

jocko
September 1, 2008, 05:17 PM
for its size and weight, probably not going to be any more pleasant to shoot than the lcp or kt 380. It is actually a wee bit smaller even. Not a target gun for sure, built for a reason and IMO definitely a 7 yard gun, but one that you should be able to pocket carry 24/7 with ease..

kokapelli
September 1, 2008, 05:42 PM
So when is the P380 supposed to go on sale?

Will this be a softer shooter than the PM9? It's not a blowback design, which should help soften recoil, but it's very lightweight.

Unless someone has actually shot both pistols, they would only be guessing.

I can offer this. I have a PF9 and a P-3AT and the P-3AT feels like BB gun after shooting the PF9.

Having said that, I also have a PM9 and it has much less felt recoil than the PF9.

Since my PM9 is milder to shoot than the PF9 I might make the assumption that Kahrs generally handle recoil better than KelTecs and that maybe the P380 will feel milder to shoot than the PM9.

I'll let you know after I shoot my P380.

Dollar An Hour
September 2, 2008, 02:16 PM
I consider my PM9 very pleasant to shoot, but am looking at picking up a small pistol for my wife. I'm wondering if the .380 would be a better choice for somebody who is recoil-shy.

philbo
September 2, 2008, 06:53 PM
Add me to the list of very satisfied PM9 owners.
As a matter of fact, add me to the list of very satisfied ownwers of multiple kahr pistols.

Same here. Owned several including the PM9 and all have been reliable & accurate, with a fit/finish that is steps above a Keltec or Ruger. I'm looking forward to seeing Kahr finally brings their 380 to market. Won't be an early adopter, but will likely have one to replace my Keltec P32 I carry as a bug now.

As far as value, every Kahr I've owned has been worth every penny spent.

Guns and more
September 2, 2008, 07:25 PM
I just checked Davidson's (Gallery of Guns) price online for the P380. It will be $535.95. Of course they don't have any yet.
My PM-9 has been great, but I don't think I'll rush for this one...yet.

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