[Sir Galahad]

Ok, this is, firstly, not meant as a "conspiracy theory" thread or a discussion of possible assassins' identities or motives unless it has a bearing on the weapon possibly used. The question is: Knowing what we know today, does it seem likely that the Carcano did, in fact, make the shots that killed JFK? We first should ask these questions:

1.) What is the accuracy one can expect from an off-the-rack Carcano?

2.) Does Carcano military surplus ammo lend or subtract to the accuracy of the Carcano?

3.) Could the action of the Carcano have made the shots at the speed it was said to have?

4.) Was there any evidence Oswald trained with the Carcano. If so, could any handicaps of the Carcano have been overcome? If not, why?

Ok, Carcano shooters, let's hear your verdicts! And, feel free to suggest a rifle of the era that seems more likely given the evidence at hand.

[Quartus]

You've asked irrelevant questions. As I have learned from many such discussions, the ONLY relevant fact is that Oswald learned marksmanship in the Marine Corp, and therefore any suggestion that he did NOT do ALL of the shooting is an insult to every man that has ever served in the Corp, fo to do so is to question the deadly marsmanship of every Marine who ever lived. (Yeah, even the 8 balls that barely made the lowest rung of qualification.)


So your questions are not only irrelevant, but insulting! :fire:




Carry on, boys. :D

[tasunkawitko]

not to be a smart-arse, but i think that he was questioning the rifle, not the shooter.:confused:

EVERYONE knows what a trained marine can do with an AMERICAN weapon, but how about one of those damned italian pieces of fluff?

[444]

I can vaguely answer question #1.
I occasionally shoot in a vintage bolt action rifle match. There are usually at least 20 shooters with everything from '03 Springfields, to M44s, to Mausers, to Enfields, to Schmit-Rubins. At least a few of the participants regularly shoot NRA Highpower, so the competition isn't easy. The last one I attended was won by a Carcano.




But the guy that won, wins almost all of them using various rifles. So, based on this experience, the right man with a Carcano can do some respectable shooting.

[4v50 Gary]

Anybody remember what Hathcock said about using a Carcano under those circumstances? It escapes me.:confused:

[Okiecruffler]

I was shooting my Hungarian M44 (my most accurate mil surp) in a lane next to guy with a carcano. He was outshooting me, and doing it at a fairly quick rate of fire. Could it have been done? Yes. Was it done? :scrutiny:

[AZTOY]

The Italian government adopted the 6.5x52mm cartridge and the Mannlicher-Carcano M-91 bolt action rifle in 1891. This rifle and cartridge served the Italian military through two World Wars, victoriously in the First, and in a losing effort in the Second.

The M-91's used in WW II were, in the main, not very well made rifles; nor were they particularly accurate. Although the M-91 was always nominally a 6.5mm rifle, during the long years of production the bore and groove sizes of barrels varied considerably, which certainly did not help the rifle's reputation for accuracy. At least some (and perhaps all) M-91 TS Carbines were rifled with an unusual gain twist in their handy 21" barrel. By the end of the Second World War many of the M-91's had actions that were rather loose. In addition, the Mannlicher-Carcano action is not an easy one to adopt to a telescopic sight (although it can be done). For all of these reasons the M-91 is not the best military rifle to use as the basis of a sporter--in fact it is probably one of the worst.

The one real virtue of the M-91 is that it was a fast to operate. Perhaps this was partly because the action was not real tight, and partly due to the Mannlicher design. But for whatever reason, the bolt slid very easily and very fast in its recess. A buddy of mine owned an M-91 Carbine, and I remember it as being the fastest bolt action military rifle I ever cycled. Practically anyone, with a minimum of practice, could shoot a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle quickly.

A number of these rough rifles were brought home as "war trophies" by GI's after the conclusion of hostilities in 1945. Later on the Italian government declared the remaining M-91 service rifles surplus. A large number of them found their way to the United States, where they were sold to shooters seeking an inexpensive or knockabout rifle for deer hunting.

Unfortunately, one of these surplus Mannlicher-Carcano rifles was used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate President John F. Kennedy in 1963. The eventual result of that sad affair was the Gun Control Act of 1968, as if it were the M-91 rifle and all of the law abiding gun owners in the US who were to blame for the death of the President, rather than the man who actually fired the shots. Once again symbolism triumphed over substance in the US Congress. In any event, the whole unfortunate affair served to further blacken the reputation of the M-91 Mannlicher-Carcano.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x52.htm

[Sir Galahad]

Not to be macabre, but I wonder if anyone has tried re-creating this scene using a Carcano exact as Oswald used it, approximated ammo, and same distance at a moving target. The moving target could be done with a winch and pulley or something along that line. The hard part would be finding a way to approximate the height of Oswald in the building.

[cookhj]

i believe that there was a program on TV a few years back where they actually did testing with an italian carcano and tried to quasi-recreate the kennedy assassination. all i remember was catching a brief snippet of the show and i can't remember what all was said.

[Gary G23]

Myself and five other rifle shooters from my gun club went to the Depository Building when we were in Dallas for the Shot Show one year. When we got upstairs we all agreed that it would be a very easy shot for any moderately talented rifle shooter shooting about any rifle.

[Hkmp5sd]

There have been several re-inactments of the shooting that were successful. One thing many people aren't aware of is just how small Dealey Plaza really is. You can't get a good representation of it's actual size from the numerous photographs. It was a relatively easy shot.

[JohnBT]

Here's a drawing of the Plaza. JT

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/plazao.jpg

[Okiecruffler]

I was very surprised the first time I actually saw the site. I had always pictured some 3-400yrd range. When you actually see the place, it's hard to imagine a rifle that couldn't make those shots.

[JohnKSa]

I wonder if anyone has tried re-creating this scene using a Carcano exact as Oswald used it, approximated ammo, and same distance at a moving target.
Yes it has, and some have demonstrated that it is possible to make the shot. At least one of the persons who was able to make the shots, completely ignored the scope and used the iron sights. The scope mount design Oswald used allows that.

I agree with the folks who've been to Dealey. It's very small. Looking out the window next to the one Oswald used, my first thought was that it would be a surprisingly easy shot. Or, at least, MUCH easier than I had been led to believe by all the things I had read/heard about the shooting.

You can't get to the window he actually used, that small area is closed to the public. However, you can get to the one next to it which is only a few feet away.

[Hkmp5sd]

You can't get to the window he actually used, that small area is closed to the public. However, you can get to the one next to it which is only a few feet away.

The next best thing to being there, Dealey Plaza webcam (http://www.earthcam.com/jfk/) . :)
EarthCam brings you the Dealey Plaza Cam - the ONLY LIVE view available in the world from the Sniper's Perch. EarthCam's live webcam gives you an exclusive view from the sixth floor window of the former Texas School Book Depository in Dallas, Texas.

[Mike Irwin]

Could he have used a Carcano for this?

Yes.

Are some Carcano's capable of fine accuracy?

Yes.

I was easily able to turn in sub 1.5" groups at 100 yards with one years ago (when my eyes were a LOT better).

Generally Carcanos I believe suffer from an image problem because they're not that good a design, the Italians were the jokes of the world in WW II, and the sights really aren't that good for fine shooting.

[ReadyontheRight]

we all agreed that it would be a very easy shot for any moderately talented rifle shooter shooting about any rifle.

Conspiracy Hat Firmly Attached...

But wouldn't you have taken the shots as the limo approached you as a frontal target and was ~25 yards closer, rather than as it drove away from you at an angle?

Conspiracy Hat Still Attached...it won't come off!

The best grafitti I've seen at the site was on the fence behind the "grassy knoll" where many think the shots came from. Amongst a bunch of names, conspiracy phrases and slogans, someone wrote: "[Their Name]...was not involved":D

[Andrew Wyatt]

was oswald left handed? I know i can operate my enfield much faster than a right handed person can from a supported position (i never take my hand off the bolt)

[ReadyontheRight]

was oswald left handed?

Oswald was laft handed. If he used a right-handed bolt, had support and kept his cheek weld, he could fire that weapon very fast. Shooting a wrong-handed bolt action, you never have to take your finger off the trigger if the front of the weapon is supported.

[Hkmp5sd]

But wouldn't you have taken the shots as the limo approached you in a linear fashion and was ~25 yards closer, rather than as it drove away from you at an angle?
One minor problem with taking the shot at that angle. Oswald would have been visible across Dealy Plaza while standing there with the rifle. By waiting until after the turn, he was able to stay in the background and shoot from a lower angle.

[Jim Watson]

I read that Richard Davis set the scenario up as a side match at a Second Chance shoot several years ago. A limo mockup occupied by dummies was pulled down a track at the correct speed, angle, and distance from a platform the height of the Depository window. A Carcano with the same cheap scope as sold by Klein's was furnished.

The event was "won" within Oswalds' time and round count.

By a left-handed Marine.

[ReadyontheRight]

One minor problem with taking the shot at that angle. Oswald would have been visible across Dealy Plaza while standing there with the rifle. By waiting until after the turn, he was able to stay in the background and shoot from a lower angle.

Good point. After visiting the site, that detail always struck me as extremely odd.

[C.R.Sam]

As others have said.
Not that difficult.

Sam

[Gordon]

Oswald was a regular participant at the state run target range in the factory he worked at for a couple years in the Soviet Union! The Sov's had him down as a ' mediocre' shot, if you can believe them. When he expatriated from the peoples paradise back to US he was said to have practiced with the carcano, which had a 4x Technics (I think ) 3/4" scope mounted by the Importer for an extra $15 . I have a Mod 38 carbine that I mounted a 4x J series Weaver scope with the same vintage mount as Oswald used. It would put Norma ammo into "3 groups from it's gain twist barrel. It would explode watermellons from 100yds. we did this experiment in early 80's at a LEO bar-B-que. I still have gun on the wall of my den . That said the whole deal with Oswald and Ruby stinks like spook stuff to me. :rolleyes:

[Okiecruffler]

Granted Conspiracies are much more fun.:D

[Detritus]

anyone know of a good place on the web that explains the "magic bullet" in a realistic and plausible way??

i saw a documentary a few years back that explained how this COULD have happened, and been ballisticly possible (involved Kennedy and the governor[ don't know how to spell his name] talking to one another and NOT being bolt upright and "properly seated" at the time of that shot).

my wife and i are in agreement about almost every aspect of what "could have happened" at dealey plaza, but she's got the "zig-zagging bullet" version in mind and can't seem to accept that it was possible for one bullet to have hit kenedy, then the governor etc.

just wanting the info so that i can show my lovely wife, why i hold the veiws i do in this regard....

thanks guys

[buzz_knox]

i saw a documentary a few years back that explained how this COULD have happened, and been ballisticly possible (involved Kennedy and the governor[ don't know how to spell his name] talking to one another and NOT being bolt upright and "properly seated" at the time of that shot).

Did this take into account the fact that the official reports on the wounds received by Kennedy were altered to support the lone gunman theory, as stated by Gerald Ford?

[Newton]

I've seen lots of war footage showing people get hit by rifle bullets, I have yet to set anyone who was head shot jerk violently TOWARDS the shooter.

The Zapruder film clearly shows Kennedy's head explode from a frontal impact that then blew the back of his head off, in keeping with basic Newtonian physics (the real reason for my screen name), his head jerks in the direction of bullet flight which is towards the general direction of the book repository, it just doesn't look right.

Combine this with the fact that Jack Ruby was seen in the area of the Plaza on the day of the shooting by a police officer who knew him quite well, and it starts to smell like a beach at low tide.

I am a long, long, way from being well acquainted with the events of that day, but every time I see the video footage, the lone shooter theory just doesn't look right. I always figured that Ruby was the second shooter, and killing Oswald was his last desparate attempt to avoid being implicated, perhaps hoping for mercy as a misguided patriot.

My 2c, and I doubt it's worth that.

[Hkmp5sd]

anyone know of a good place on the web that explains the "magic bullet" in a realistic and plausible way??

Not online but I know a good source. Read the book Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK by Gerald Posner. I have read every book written about the assassination and was all for conspiracy, but this one book convinced me that Oswald, acting alone, killed JFK. In it, the author debunks each of the "discrepancies" like the Magic Bullet, the head-snap or the grassy knoll, one-by-one.

Most books and documentaries are biased in their transmittion of information in an attempt to convince you they are correct. There is a lot of information and evidence that never sees the light of day because it doesn't contribute to the author's conspiracy premise. Much like getting all of your gun facts from HCI/Brady/VPC.

[BigG]

There was a pretty good run down on the assassination on one of the "Discovery type" channels - said Kennedy was ordered hit by Giancana mob who used Marseilles hit man provided by French Connection mob. Snuck in thru New Orleans without papers, did hit in Dallas, smuggled back out. </tinfoil>

[Andrew Wyatt]

Numerous tests were performed at a test facility and it was impossible to hit the moving target using a Carcano in the time frame that took place on Nov. 22nd, 1963.

It's been duplicated and done successfully since then.

[Mike Irwin]

Being left handed has nothing to do with it, really.

I'm very strongly left-handed, but I shoot from the right shoulder because that's my dominant eye.

[Mike Irwin]

"I've seen lots of war footage showing people get hit by rifle bullets, I have yet to set anyone who was head shot jerk violently TOWARDS the shooter.

The Zapruder film clearly shows Kennedy's head explode from a frontal impact that then blew the back of his head off, in keeping with basic Newtonian physics..."


I used to think that too, in fact rather strongly, but I got a copy of the Zapruder film, and in viewing it frame by frame and messing with the settings for color, shading, balance, and the like, I've come to the conclusion that what appears to be Kennedy's head exploding from a frontal shot is actually an optical illusion caused by both Zapruder moving the camera and Kennedy's car moving. The motorcade was at an angle to Zapruder, so small relative motion by both Kennedy and the motorcade makes it appear as if the cloud of blood and bone are actually coming from the back of his head.

Anyway, that's my concusion based on what I know about what I saw frame by frame and knowing where Zapruder and the motorcade were in relation to each other.

[DeBee]

The JFK 'killshot' to the head was fired by a .45 ACP caliber DeLisle carbine loaded with a new (for the time) sintered uranium slug.

That is why the brain tissue was 'lost'- the whole mass fluoresced under x-ray...

The shot probably came from a low angle like the sewer on the side of the road.

There were quite a few good shots in Dallas that sad day...

[mephisto]

what?

[Keith]

If memory serves, the first shot was less than fifty yards, the last shot at about eighty yards.
And if you think about it, from the shooters standpoint, the target was nearly stationary - moving directly away at a low rate of speed.

And he only scored two hits out of three shots! That's hardly the great feat of marksmanship the ting foil hat crowd wwould have us believe!

Keith

[Keith]

But his head jerked to the rear when struck!!!! Remember that one?

I used to think that was pretty damning evidence of a shot from the front until I noticed that when I shot old punkins and stuff like that, they always fell toward me - toward the shot. And somewhere out on the web are some experiments done with similar objects, and all of them fall (or jerk) in the direction of the shot.
Thay are calling this the "jet effect". Explaining that the gooey "material" exiting from the rear tends to propel the head (or goo-filled pumpkin) away from the rear exot blast - towards the shooter.

So, the tin hat crowds most damning piece of evidence turns out to prove the shot came from School Book Depsitory building, rather than the grassy knoll.

Keith

[Mike Irwin]

"But his head jerked to the rear when struck!!!! Remember that one?"

A doctor friend told me this could have been caused by a "convulsion reflex" which apparently sometimes happens when the brain suffers an injury.

Actually saw it happen in college to a guy who caught a knee in the head during a game of flag football. for about 2 seconds it looked as if he was trying to bring his heels up to the back of his head.

Apparently it has to do with how the muscles are anchored to the spine in more or less a vertical orientation, as opposed to the front of the body, where the torso muscles are more or less banded around the chest

[Mike Irwin]

"The JFK 'killshot' to the head was fired by a .45 ACP caliber DeLisle carbine loaded with a new (for the time) sintered uranium slug."

What? That doesn't make any sense.

The Illuminati-Reptillian Alien consortium, working in concert with the Pope, the Mafia, and the United Mine Worker's, KNEW that uranium would cause fluorescing of the wound!

They were TOLD to use skuzyumptium, which is the preferred method of executing Cyaxian agents who are masquerading as US Presidents. It leaves no trace, and in fact creates no wound. Just looks like the target has gone to sleep... :)

[Keith]

Sure, it could have been a combination of the two things. He certainly convulsed on the second (neck) in some classic fashion that doctors recognize in neck injuries - his hands coming together in front of his chest.

On the third shot his head jerks back a bit and a cone of spray leaps skyward, and slighty forward.

It's just that this "jet effect" thing has been overlooked for so long. At a glance it seems to be contrary to physics and even common sense - but anyone with a rifle and milk jug can test it and see for themselves. The jug will fall towards the shooter.

Keith

[MLC]

The 60-90 yards hots make on the president would not be a challenge for a practiced shooter or a trained Marine.
In this GIF it looks like the final shot hits the senator.
I don't know how that realtes to the evaluation of the assassination but it
looks like he's he from the rear to me.
http://members.tripod.com/~edyl/jfk/zapruderxxx.gif

[Mike Irwin]

I've watched that clip dozens of times, and have also pulled it apart frame by frame, but it's still harrowing to watch...


I seem to remember the explanation for his hands being up was that the first shot hit him in the neck and came out his throat and he was grasping at his throat, which is why Jackie is turned towards him when his skull disintegrates.

[Keith]

The writer Posner makes an excellent case that there were three bullets from the rear, but the first two did not happen when and where the Warren Commission says they did.
That knowledge does two things - it takes "the "magic bullet" out of the equation since two bullets did all those things, rather than one. And it gives Oswald a longer time betwen shots.

He also proves his case beyond any doubt by showing that in one frame of the Zapruder film, Kennedies lapel actually jumps out and a small amount of blood spray is visible exiting at the spot (the neck shot). If I recall correctly, it is this bullet that srikes conolly in the wrist and makes him drop his hat.

It isn't for some seconds that Kennedy reacts and this moment is always where Warren Commision said the second bullet struck - they were wrong.

Then the third and final bullet comes in and it's quite obvious when this one hits Kennedy, and then goes on to strike Conolly again.

Oh and that first bullet was much earlier than the WC called it as well - it was actually fired just before the view was obscured by the tree instead of just after it.

And this gives the shooter the second two shots in 9.9 seconds, instead of the six seconds that was always claimed.

Keith

[Hkmp5sd]

Like Mike said, get the Zapruder film on DVD and watch it yourself before believing everyone else.

Regarding the head movement:

Itek Optical Systems did a computer enhancement for a CBS documentary which showed that when the bullet hit JFK, he jerked forward 2.3 inches before starting his rapid movement backward.

The backward movement is then caused by two things. First, was a neuromuscular spasm caused by the destruction of JFK's cortex, resulting in a massive discharge of neurologic impulses down the spine to every muscle in the body. As the body stiffened and the strongest muscles being those in the back and neck, they contract, which causes the body to lurch upward and to the rear. JFK was also wearing a back brace which accentuated this movement and not letting him fall forward.

Here's another interesting tidbit of information:

At the same instant the President's body was in a neuromuscular seizure, the bullet exploded out the right side of his head. Dr. Luis Alvarez, a Nobel-Prize winning physicist, focused on that to discover the second factor that drove the President's head back with such force. Dubbed the "jet effect," Dr. Alvarez established it both through physical experiments that re-created the head shot and extensive laboratory calculations He found that when the brain and blood tissue expoded out JFK's head, they carried forward more momentum than was brought in by the bullet. That caused the head to thrust backward - in an opposite direction - as a rocket does when its fuel is ejected. Because the bullet exited on the right side of JFK's head, it forced him to be propelled back and to the left, exactly what is visible on the Zapruder film.

[Newton]

Produces more momentum than was carried in by the bullet.

Produce extra momentum ? More than was carried in ?


Watching Professor Klinkenhoff get the rebound from a punch ball sure would be interesting :D

Ye kanna change the laws of physics Jim.

Those of you who think he's dead are wearing the tinfoil hats, I think that him, Elvis, and Marilyn are shift leaders at our local Taco Bell, JFK does the drive through window.

[Shooter973]

Is it just a coincidence that the 264 Win mag was just out as a hunting rifle and cartridge at this time? It takes the same size bullet as the Carcano and is a much better rifle. Of course only one bullet was recovered and it was a FMJ, but the 264 could have be reloaded with FMJ's also. just a coincidence I'm sure! :scrutiny: :confused: :mad: :uhoh:

[Mike Irwin]

"Is it just a coincidence that the 264 Win mag was just out as a hunting rifle and cartridge at this time?"

Huh?

The .264 Win. Mag. was announced in 1958, and the first rifles and ammo became available in 1959.

I guess it's not a coincidence as long as you don't take into account the fact that JFK was kill 4 years later...

Of if you don't mind the fact that by 1963 nearly 2 million surplus military rifles in 6.5mm caliber had been imported into the United States, rifles made in Italy, Japan, Sweden, Holland, and Greece.

Then again maybe JFK was killed with a 6.5 Remington Magnum, which wasn't announced until 1966. It was a prototype and Remington officials wanted to see how it would perform.

But it think the choice of rifle truly DOES point to the REAL conspiracy!

Italian rifle.....

The Mafia is from Italy!

Kennedy was killed in the south...

The Mafia has its roots in southern Italy!

DEFINITELY A MOB KILLING!


I really think everyone needs some of this....

http://www.reynoldskitchens.com/reynoldskitchens/kitchenconnection/_images/products/prod_01.gif

Take a lot. The rays are particularly strong today! :D

[Sir Galahad]

This is off topic, but speaking of tinfoil hats, I actually saw a guy who wears one! He was a temp where I work and he covered a sun hat with tinfoil and wore it whenever he was outside. He said that those microwave towers you see that are used to transmit TV broadcasts and for communication are actually federal government mind control towers. Needless to say, this guy was not the brightest bulb in the box. He admitted that he "may have", in the past, taken too many synthetic hallucinogens...

[Mike Irwin]

I've seen more that a couple of people wearing tinfoil or other types of protective head gear designed to "protect" them from secret government mind control/mind reading rays.

More than just a few street people in the DC Metro area share this belief.

[Hkmp5sd]

Produce extra momentum ? More than was carried in ?
Ye kanna change the laws of physics Jim.

No, you can't. However, in the case of a bullet impacting something that contains stored energy, you can add momentum. A billiard ball, when struck by another ball, has only the energy transferred from that ball. Shoot a bullet into a thin-walled compressed air tank, and that bullet just might leave the other side of that tank with more momentum than when it arrived.

Recon there is any energy in the human head, say from blood pressure or nerves, that can add momentum to a projectile (including the blood, bone and brain tissue) that blows out the other side? Now for our conservation of energy, that mass exiting the head must exert an equal and opposite force on the head, pushing it in the opposite direction, toward the direction the bullet was fired from.

[tasunkawitko]

you guys can talk about all this,

and then we have the "pristine" bullet.

i would really like to see a satisfactory explanation for it, as i believe it is 99% impossible.

[tex_n_cal]

High velocity rifle bullets can do very odd things. My 2nd deer - shot with a 100 grain, .25 caliber Nosler ballistic tip, launched at about 2900 fps, hit deer 200 yards away, perfectly behind shoulder. The bullet catches a rib, turns a 90 degree turn and goes out the bottom of the belly!

As for Oswald, it's been proven he could have done it.

More importantly, it isn't credible that some organization with considerable resources conspired to kill JFK. One, too much risk of screwing up the hit - Oswald gets caught before the shot, sings, and spills the beans. Second, a shot at a moving vehicle is a low percentage shot, something that only a lone individual with limited opportunity and resources would try.

Think about it - why take the risk of getting caught? If JFK is dead, and the conspiracy is discovered, whatever cause or organization responsible would suffer the unbridled wrath of all America.

Why not just arrange for one of JFK's skeletons to come out? Arrange for one of his mistresses to be discovered, or die suscipiously? Kennedy is ruined, his legacy about as bad as Clinton's is now. Kill him, he's a martyr, especially if his murderers are then discovered.

[Dain Bramage]

The pristine bullet is easy. It only looks pristine from the angle of the popular photograph shown everywhere. Other angles show that it really is deformed.

Another one is the zigzag bullet path. I've seen diagrams drawn by conspiracy theorists that show the tortured path the first bullet must have taken to hit both Kennedy and Connelly. They show both men sitting in line at at the same height, probably as they would in a stock Lincoln Continental.

Except the car was not stock. It was modified as a "show the VIP" car. The president's seat was higher and outboard of the governor's seat, lining up the wounds and Oswald's angle correctly. There are many sites on the web with photographs taken before the shooting that show the relative positions of the two men.

[JohnKSa]

He also proves his case beyond any doubt by showing that in one frame of the Zapruder film, Kennedies lapel actually jumps out and a small amount of blood spray is visible exiting at the spot (the neck shot). Exactly, he's not raising his hands to his throat, that's a medical reflex to the spinal injury from the other shot. I can't remember the name of the reflex at the moment. If you look closely, both hands are closed, palms down, and the elbows are really what are being raised.

The bullet isn't pristine. It's bent and flattened. However, there is one view of it that makes it look pretty good. That's the picture everyone remembers. Even it it were "pristine" that doesn't prove anything. I've dug rifle bullets out of the dirt that looked like they were new. The 6.5 caliber is well known for being an excellent penetrator, and the round being used had a very thick jacket. I'm actually kind of surprised that it got bent up as badly as it did.

[Mike Irwin]

I've seen, in person, FMJ bullets that have been fired into the skulls of African elephants and Cape Buffalo that look so perfect that it would seem that they could be reloaded and used again.

Several of my former coworkers at NRA hunted Africa extensively when it was still fairly easy to get an elephant, and a number of them recovered the bullets that brought down their trophies.

If the so-called "pristine" bullet was the one that went through Kennedy's neck and throat, and then into Connley's wrist and thigh, it wouldn't have hit much in the way of hard tissue that would cause it to rivet.

Supposedly Oswald used American-made FMJ ammo, I believe by Winchester. I don't know how thick the jacket was on it.

[Mike Irwin]

"Exactly, he's not raising his hands to his throat, that's a medical reflex to the spinal injury from the other shot. I can't remember the name of the reflex at the moment."

Thorburn's Position, or something close to that.

It's somewhat controversial as to whether it actually happens or not, but if brain trauma can cause a rigid convulsive episode, and it's known that it can, I personally don't see any reason why shock injury to the spinal cord (which would be expected if a bullet passes close by to it) couldn't cause this event.


I've been reading a bunch of stuff on the web (which is where I came across Thorburn's Position reference).

There are some SERIOUSLY scary theories out there.

About the ONLY one I didn't see, and I'm sure it's out there, is that John Hinkley shot Reagan not in an attempt to kill him, but in an attempt to silence Jim Brady him because Brady was actually on the planning committee for JFK's assasination. Reagan was a "mushroom" target, thrown in to make it seem as if someone else was the target.

If that's never been posed before, I want credit! :)

[Hkmp5sd]

Yep, Thorburn's Position. It is proven by the fact once he is hit near the spine, his arms jerk into a fixed position with his hands near his chin (but not touching the exit wound as it would if he were merely reaching for the injury), elbows pushed out to the sides and he remains in that position for over 5 seconds. Jackie grabbed his left arm, once with her right hand and then with both hands and tried to push it down, but his arm did not lower. Only after the headshot blowing out the right hemisphere of his brain was he released from that position.

BTW, Mike, you mean that GWB wasn't also included in the plot? Hillary swears he has been involved in every conspiracy since (and including) Judas betrayed Christ. :)