[WonderNine]

Just some food for thought as I was surprised by the results and I'd like to get other people's opinions.

Here's some interesting shots from the results of shooting at the range a few months ago. I'm not sure of the quality of the steel used, but it is .5" thick. I think it's iron, but I don't know.

The .223 used was the South African surplus .223 (5.56mm) 55gr. FMJ.

It was shot out of a Winchester model 70 .223 bolt action. 20-22" barrel I believe. The other hits are from Sellier & Bellot .357 158gr. FMJ and the smaller ones are .22lr from a Marlin model 60.

The first shot here shows the .223 has completely penetrated the iron.

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/223.jpg

The second shot shows a hit at the top from a .222 rifle. This was a .222 reload, not sure of the maker. I believe it was a Winchester with about 20-22" barrel, but I'm not sure again of the model, maybe another model 70 bolt. It's my uncle's varmint gun. The .222 left a good sized crater but didn't penetrate. Slightly less than halfway through in fact.

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/222.jpg

Here's a shot of both hits. .223 on bottom, .222 on top.

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/both.jpg

Here's a shot from the back. The .223 hole is slightly larger in the back. The .222 made a large bulge even though it only penetrated halfways or so.

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/both2.jpg

And here's the final shot. A side view.

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/side.jpg

Questions? Opinions? I'd like to hear what fellow HR's have to say. :cool:

*edit* forgot to mention the steel spinner was about 25 yards away. About a quarter of the way to the 100 yard rifle targets. I've measured this distance.

[Shalako]

Thats cool!

I've got the same spinning target and have had to weld it back together at least 4 times. A good tip I learned from my uncle for filling the thru holes is to find a dissimilar metal (a brass block) and secure it behind the hole. The filler metal from your mig or stick welder will not stick to the other metal and you can fill the hole right up!

Have fun!

ps. If you want to see a real crater, hit it with a 12 gauge slug! The thing spun about 50 times.

[WonderNine]

It says on the box that it's only meant for handguns, not rifles. ;)

[Andrew Wyatt]

it may have, but .308 and .223 penetrare the same amount of stuff, steel wise, and .308 makes bigger holes. shoot a plate rated for .308 or -06 with a .243 or .270. those penetrate more stuff.

[WonderNine]

I've always been of the understanding that smaller bullets penetrate better and then as a bullet's diameter increases, its penetration ability decreases rapidly. Anybody heard of the .220 Swift tests done by the military? I think that showed how a smaller diameter bullet can penetrate armor much more effectively than larger ones.

The problem being though that the smaller bullets tend to fragment like the .223 thereby doing less damage to whatever is behind the armor.

Now that said though, don't .223 caliber sized bullets tend to penetrate better....it seems like it to me...

I'd really like to shoot it with a 7.62X39mm out of the SKS and see what the results are. I know there have been tests though where that round in the armor piercing variation in has easily penetrated several vests.

[Shalako]

Those spinners are made of "pot metal". Very low quality iron. The SKS rounds made pretty nice dents in mine at 100 yards but did not go through. If the target was stationary, they probably would penetrate.

The .308 went through it like butter.

[Nightcrawler]

Penetration is more than bullet size and velocity; bullet weight is a factor, and a big one. A heavier bullet (at a given speed) has more momentum and takes more force to stop. Lightweight, even very high velocity bullets (like .223) tend to lose velocity very quickly after penetrating a barrier (assuming the bullet doesn't fragment), whereas a heavier bullet will maintain more velocity.

.308 out penetrates .223, typically. I imagine that .243 and .270 would have great penetration too.

Bullet design counts a lot, too. The harder your bullet is, the more stuff it'll be able to go through. .30-06AP probably goes through an awful lot. I wonder what one of those AP bullets put on a .300 Win Mag case would be able to do...

[WonderNine]

Hmm, now I feel like starting another 9mm vs. 45 thread. Penetration?? Stopping power anyone??? :D

[lycanthrope]

Sectional density. Bullet design. Speed.

Not talking stopping power, just penetration.

[uglygun]

Bullet design counts a lot, too. The harder your bullet is, the more stuff it'll be able to go through. .30-06AP probably goes through an awful lot. I wonder what one of those AP bullets put on a .300 Win Mag case would be able to do...



You need not wonder.


Here's the back side of a 1 1/4 inch steel plate that I ASSURE you is not low quality steel.....

That's a 163grn AP penetrator sticking out of it, actually there are several. The penetrator is just a few mm away from showing it's full diameter of the core and possibly fully penetrating the plate. I have since put a hole through the plate with just one shot after working my loads up.

http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/APplate/penetrated.jpg


I also have access to a couple lighter 150grain AP pills that I loaded up trying to get them nice and zippy. Ran into a problem with them though, they are of a lower quality steel core and these things actually melt/weld themselves to the target medium. I was hoping for improved results through a more modern design not to mention I was pushing for the 3400+fps barrier because speed DEFINITELY counts with these things. But I was finding that the 150 grain bullets were barely buldging the back side of the plate, that's how dramatic the bullet erroding was as it entered the plate plus the design/shape of the core is different. Even my first starting loads with the 163grn loads were able to significantly bump the back side of the plate then as I increased the load I began to see penetrators sticking out the back and show signs of wanting to fully penetrate.


Design differences...

The 163grn AP projectiles seem to be the better projectile. I strongly suspect that the 163grn projectile uses a Tungsten core or atleast an alloy getting to similar hardness and melting temperature. Cores that pierce the plate appear to have little deformation. Also, the 163grn cores have a conical point ontop of a cylindrical core, very strange looking but they appear to cause the projectile to bore DIRECTLY into the plate and resist yawing. I have cross sectioned these 163s and they are noticably different than the 150s in design.

Compared to the 150grn AP cores, the 150grn AP cores have a more traditional ogive comparable to that of most bullets where it's rounded/curved from point to midsection. It's my belief that as these bullets impact a steel medium they are more prone to yawing. The curved edge as it bears into the medium seems to want to continue to follow on a curve, kinda like a ski getting laid on edge and wanting to turn/carve through the water. Ofcourse then there is the core material itself which seems to be of a more mild steel or alloy, as it impacts with the steel I'm pretty sure it's melting and effectiveness suffers. The 163grain bullets made very smooth entrance craters in the steel, the 150 grain cores made for rough and spotted entrance craters that seriously looked like they had been hit by an arc welding rod.


I've got a lot of pictures to take of my progress over the past 3-4 months while locking horns with this plate and trying to smoke a couple holes through it. The 300WinMag is just so darned close but every time I hear that plate ring out and I don't have a bullet go clean through, I say to myself, "I should have gotten the 300RUM and all of it's 3600fps glory with 165grn bullets".



For a comparison, 55grn South African puts about a 3/16 by 3/16 crater into the face of this steel plate. A 300WinMag 190grain Sierra Match King at 2900fps puts about a 1/2 by 1/2 inch crater in the same steel, enough for you to stick your entire index finger tip into.

here's the front of that plate....
Two shots from the 190grn 300WinMag are located center in upper area of plate, to the right of that are a couple shots from the 5.56x45mm M193 loads, then the rest are all 163grn AP loads doing around 3100fps from a 300WinMag.
http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/APplate/plate2.jpg


Here's a close up of one of the holes created by a 163grn core before somehow it lodged it's way loose out of the plate(wish I could have found the core).
http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/APplate/holyheck.jpg



I've got more pictures to take to show comparisons of 150grn rounds to the 163grn rounds. I also intend to load up some 125grn and 150grn Barnes copper solids for some TRUELY insane velocity, the copper could prove interesting but I'm holding speculation till I can actually put rounds on steel. I need to get a new plate soon, the one I have now is SERIOUSLY beaten up having with stood 2 more outings since the above pictures were taken. The plate I have now is gonna get a proper burial, I'm gonna put a nice 4-5 ounce glop of thermite onto the plate and light it off to see what kind of grotesque hole I can put in it with a couple thousand degrees of moulten metal.


The plate I'm using is of a hardness some where above 58RC, I can't put a scratch in it with any of my harder knife blades that have RC approaching 60 or so. For REALLY hard stuff I'm gonna get some leaf spring material, I've shot at 3/16 inch thick leaf springs with 55grn M193 and 62grn M855 in the past and the poor 5.56x45mm didn't even leave a mark on that hardened spring steel. Want to try my fancy 300WinMag loads on it real bad though.



Sorry for the thread high jacking.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I've always been of the understanding that smaller bullets penetrate better and then as a bullet's diameter increases, its penetration ability decreases rapidly. Anybody heard of the .220 Swift tests done by the military? I think that showed how a smaller diameter bullet can penetrate armor much more effectively than larger ones.


Diameter matters not a whit. Sectional density and velocity are the only two factors that affect penetration.

[FireInTheHole]

Hey ugly:

Are the 150 Ap from 7.62 NATO?

Where can I get some? :)

[uglygun]

There are a couple sources out there, just don't load them for 7.62Nato/308Winchester as there's a specific ban mentioned on the loading of 7.62Nato/308Winchester with AP bullets. Fits in with the regs banning the possesion of handgun AP ammo, basically it applies to any chambering for which has been offered in a handgun.

Not a lawyer on that though so don't take my generalization as gospel.



Besides, from what I've seen, the 163s ARE the better bullet. Heck, the newer M993/M995 rounds that I've seen pictures of WENT BACK to the the WWII design using an AP core that's conical.

The M993 and M995 have a bit more modernized jacket and construction but the core is much similar to that of a WWII 163grn design from what I can gather.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m993.htm

Main difference is that the older M2 AP bullets have a lead core situated ahead of the AP core where as the M993/M995 have the lead core situated behind the AP core(shared by the 150grn AP cores).


I think that part of the splash craters for the M2 AP bullets on the steel medium are created by the lead ahead of the steel core but I'm gonna have to wait to get a new steel plate to compare the craters they make to that of the 150s.

[444]

Not that this adds anything to the conversation, and it certainly doesn't mean much, but I was out shooting this morning. Unfortunately where I shoot, a lot of people dump all manor of junk there. I noticed some steel lying there. It was two 1/4" sheets of steel welded together, about a foot square. It looked interesting, so, I set it up at about 25 yards and fired three shots at it using an AR15 and Wolf 55 grain ammo. It went right through it like a hot knife through butter.
I thought it was kind of neat although it isn't any kind of real test.

I have a homemade steel target that is made from the leading edge of a road grader blade. I have shot it with everything from a .338 Win Mag, down to a .22. Only two rounds ever dimpled the plate. One was a shot from a super max loaded .444 Marlin 300 grain bullet at about 25 yards. The other produced numerous dimples when I fired a mag on full auto from a Galil in .223 at about 50 yards.

[Nightcrawler]

444, .223 dimpled the plate but .338 Win Mag didn't? .338, IIRC, produces similar velocities to .223, but with MUCH heavier bullets...

:confused:

[uglygun]

I have a homemade steel target that is made from the leading edge of a road grader blade.


I'd like to get my hands on some steel like that, thinner materials though in the 3/8-1/2 inch thickness.


The leaf spring I shot at was pretty interesting though, even the steel penetrator of an M855 round didn't do that much to it. Could just barely make out a pock mark in the steel where the penetrator tip had impacted, wasn't that impressive in the slightest.


If it wasn't against the law it would be fun to turn some custom cores on a lathe, that and a Corbin bullet press to give them a nice aerodynamic jacket.

[444]

But, the bullets were softpoints. Plus I was shooting at it from much greater range.
Again, this isn't any kind of a test, I have been shooting at this thing for years; probably 10k rounds have hit it. Different calibers, different ranges, different bullets; no conclusive data, just a few points that interested me.

I shot a piece of steel that I found in the desert with 5.56 AP a few years ago and it didn't even scratch it.

[Nightcrawler]

Ahh. I see now.