Has American Hand Gunner ever Lied to you?


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fireman
July 20, 2008, 01:16 PM
Long time reader. First time poster. Back when the 500 S&W first came Out I was the first kid on my block to purchase one. Then I read AHG review and found it to be totally accurate in their review. With the 500 I have probably the Crem de la Cren of large bore hunting Revo. Then about a year later came the "up grade"-460XVR Describing the recoil as "A pussycat" compaired to the 500.
Recoil on the 460 is what can only be described as Biblical.The kind of recoil that when the shock wave hits you it is like being punched hard in the chest. I relegated the 460 to 454 casull status.I let my subscription run out because I feel that if AHG had actually had fired the 460 The story would have been different.
Any simular experiences?
Thanks
Fireman

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.38 Special
July 20, 2008, 01:35 PM
I think the physical recoil of the .460 is less than that of the .500, especially when the .500 is stoked with heavy cast bullets. The shockwave from the .460 is, though, unsettling.

As for Handgunner, I'd have to say it's the most accurate handgun specialty mag I've seen. Rifle and Handloader have even higher standards, IMO, but they don't cover the topics I'm interested in as well as Handgunner. The three are the only shooting magazines I take regularly (aside from Rifleman, of course) if that means anything.

Every magazine occasionally prints things with which I disagree, though. In Handgunner, that includes almost everything J.D. Jones has ever written. But oh well. If I gave up on a publication every time I saw something inaccurate I would never read anything.

birdshot8's
July 20, 2008, 01:39 PM
some cats are pretty dangerous. maybe they were thinking of a jaguar with rabies.

The Tourist
July 20, 2008, 01:44 PM
And don't forget that the concept of recoil is subjective.

For example, I'm a big guy. I wear hearing protection and a PAST shooting glove and I can fire a pretty long string of .44 Magnum cast loads.

What drives me nuts (technically 'nuttier') is cumulative recoil. Put me at a bench or a prairie dog town with a heavy barreled .243, and that little 'nudge' starts to wear on my senses. That little recoil bothers me.

And don't forget, guys who say they "love recoil" probably get into their trucks and cry all of the way home to a bucket of ice for their wrist.

fireman
July 20, 2008, 02:47 PM
It just seems to me that maybe you must take AHG with a block of salt.
I do not recall a feature in which writer did not like what they featured.
Every gun is not a winner-except the one's they are featuring that issue.

csmkersh
July 20, 2008, 02:59 PM
As already said, recoil is subjective and everyone experiences it differently. Like the The Tourist, his .243 begins to bother him in a prolonged shooting situation. Me, my .30-06 is a tame load - for me. But my 300 RUM eats my lunch after 10 rounds. Then my friend, Charlie Petty seems to be able to soak up the 300 RUM and not bat an eye. And I don't think I'd ever willing fire a 4 bore rifle.

As to handguns, I'll call the limit with my .44 mag and will prefer either the S&W .41 Mag or my old Ruger .357 flat-top. Ya'll can have the hand cannons, they're not for me.

.38 Special
July 20, 2008, 03:17 PM
It just seems to me that maybe you must take AHG with a block of salt.
I do not recall a feature in which writer did not like what they featured.
Every gun is not a winner-except the one's they are featuring that issue.
According to the editor, they will tell you when the gun is not perfect, and I have seen them do so. Also according to the editor, you will never see them tear a handgun to shreds in a write-up. If a gun is really bad, they will send it back to the manufacturer with a note to that effect, and they won't write about it at all. I think the line was "You may note that there are some products we never write about. A detective would call that a clue".

TitaniumMan
July 20, 2008, 03:26 PM
I'm one of the lucky SOBs who just doesn't feel recoil. I've injured my wrist while typing, but never a twinge from hand cannons.

My shoulder is the same way. On a rainy day, if I move my arm just the right way, I get excruciating pain. At the range, I can blast away with rifles and shotguns for hours without any pain.

Matt-J2
July 20, 2008, 03:35 PM
Others might call that, 'lying by omission.'
Sure, them not writing about brand X is a clue but any intelligent person will tell you it isn't much of one. They could refuse to write about such a brand for a number of reasons.
Refusing to write a truly bad review, or rather, an honest review of a truly bad product, shows a distinct lack of journalistic integrity, IMO. They've already tested it, after all. They know it's bad. By not writing the review, they're helping to keep a bad product on the market.

Even beyond all that, I have no use for a magazine full of only positive reviews. I like to know what to avoid as well as what's top o the line.

.38 Special
July 20, 2008, 03:39 PM
Well, I won't argue the point with you, other than to note that if you refuse to read any magazine that doesn't write bad reviews, you don't read many magazines. I'm aware of very, very few magazines that will write critical articles about products, regardless of the subject. I am under the impression that Gun Tests is the only such shooting-oriented magazine.

The essential problem is that almost all magazines are supported by advertising. A single negative article about an advertiser's product is almost a guarantee that the maker of that product will no longer be an advertiser. And being that every manufacturer occasionally turns out a bad product or a stupid idea, any advertiser-supported magazine that calls a spade a spade every chance it gets will, within a few years, be out of business.

I think that's called "life". Bummer.

csmkersh
July 20, 2008, 03:43 PM
If you want the unvarnished truth, subscribe to Gun Tests Magazine (http://www.gun-tests.com/). They have no advertisers to sweat and buy the firearms they test. You may not agree with their choices, but they do call 'em as they see 'em.

HeavyDuty
July 20, 2008, 03:58 PM
Fireman, were you shooting indoors or outdoors?

Matt-J2
July 20, 2008, 04:02 PM
Well, I won't argue the point with you, other than to note that if you refuse to read any magazine that doesn't write bad reviews, you don't read many magazines.

I don't, in fact, read very many magazines. The mags I do read, I tend to skip the handful of product reviews they feature.

mec
July 20, 2008, 04:39 PM
According to the editor, they will tell you when the gun is not perfect, and I have seen them do so...

In just about every issue, in fact.

I just read an article by the editor about two pocket sized 1911 type pistols. They have bobbed hammers and one has a trough in the top of the slide instead of sights. He didn't like either of those features and said so loud and clear. Same thing with Ayoob's review of the new Ruger SR9. He found plenty to like about it but the factual information in the article would disuade many potential owners from buying one.

It is not much fun reading about poor quality guns and even less writing about them. (Though Phil Engeledrum 's efforts in that field had high entertainment value.) The FMG editors tell the writers to discuss the positive and negative aspects of any gun reviewed but are not interested in publishing a trash-o-ramo on any of them.

dagger dog
July 20, 2008, 04:40 PM
I don't know what it is about the recoil on a "HOT" magnum revolver, to me it truly does have that slap in the face feel, from the concussion when the round goes off. I get some hand vibration like when you're holding a piece of metal wrong and you hit it with a hammer, it seems to come all the way from the tips of the fingers down the arms to the elbows then that slap in the face concussion.

I'd like to video my self 'cause I just know I'm slamming those eye lids shut when the concussion hits.

I've trained myself enough to have complete trigger control and no jerking of the trigger(in other words I can hit what I'm shooting at), it's just that slap in the face, that I can't drill myself into NOT FEELING!

fireman
July 20, 2008, 08:37 PM
Fireman, were you shooting indoors or outdoors?

Only Purple mountians majesticy where I live I'm 20 miles from a range with a roof.

Fireman

fireman
July 20, 2008, 08:43 PM
.38 Special said:
"Just sitting and looking at a mountain is an act of worship." ~ Edmund Hillary


I say AMEN

EMC45
July 20, 2008, 08:58 PM
Fired the 500 S&W Mag with 440gr. GC and a stiff charge of H110 I think (friends gun and load) I shot 3 times and never again. The feeling was like a hand grenade went off in front of my face!

Tim Burke
July 20, 2008, 09:11 PM
Sometimes you have to read between the lines. Keep in mind American Handgunner isn't in the business of selling magazines; they are in the business of selling advertising.
Having shot both the 500 and the 460 with stout loads, I wouldn't call either one a "pussycat," unless it was being compared to a 329.

twigs
July 20, 2008, 09:13 PM
I take all gun reviews with a grain of salt. That being said, I eagerly anticipate the delivery of American Handgunner as opposed to several other mags that I read and like.

I recall one of their writers making the comments that .38Special mentioned--that they would send a gun back if they couldn't write a review that was positive. I don't think that's "lying by omission" if they tell you openly that's their policy.

However, more to the point, I have found their descriptions of various guns to be very accurate, their photography to be unbelievably beautiful, and their columnists to be expert, informative, and entertaining. While I take any particular opinion with a grain of salt, that's because the ultimate opinion for me will be mine, based on the facts. I've never seen them be inaccurate on the facts.

HeavyDuty
July 20, 2008, 09:31 PM
Only Purple mountians majesticy where I live I'm 20 miles from a range with a roof.


OK, scratch that idea. (Increased concussion from an enclosed space.)

bestseller92
July 20, 2008, 09:50 PM
AH is still the best pistol mag out there, but it was a lot better before Roy Huntington took over as editor from Cameron Hopkins.

And they need to hire an editor (an actual "editor", meaning "one who edits") to clean up Clint Smith (and Wesson)'s convoluted writing. His sentences are strained enough to make your eyes explode sometimes.

SomeDude
July 20, 2008, 11:36 PM
I had a chance to shoot John Ross' 500 S&W yesterday. After watching him shoot it, I passed. A man's got to know his limitations.

.38 Special
July 21, 2008, 02:01 AM
And they need to hire an editor (an actual "editor", meaning "one who edits") to clean up Clint Smith (and Wesson)'s convoluted writing. His sentences are strained enough to make your eyes explode sometimes.

Glad I'm not the only one with that opinion. I like Clint Smith, but sometimes he puts down a sentence that just makes me think "What the hell was that all about?"

bestseller92
July 21, 2008, 02:09 AM
Exactly. Smith is a very smart guy with tons of knowledge, but he needs a good editor to help him get that knowledge across effectively in print.

TimboKhan
July 21, 2008, 02:24 AM
And don't forget, guys who say they "love recoil" probably get into their trucks and cry all of the way home to a bucket of ice for their wrist.


That's true. I am a big dude and not particularly recoil sensitive, but I know what hurts and have no problem in saying that I won't shoot something if it does. 3.5 Mag shells? Nope. .357 Mags out of a Ti snubby? Not again.

As far as AHG goes, I generally like the articles. They seem to be willing to step out and say something is bad more than the other magazines, and I happen to like Mike Venturino, even though I am not super interested in the guns he is into. Clint Smith is a very smart guy, and has a lot of knowledge, but he isn't a particularly good writer. Nothing wrong with that given that he can generally get his points across pretty well, and he does seem to be improving.

vanilla_gorilla
July 21, 2008, 02:56 AM
Charlie Petty has sworn over and over that those who have problems with their post-lock S&W revolvers locking up unintentionally are liars or have no idea how to use a firearm. I'd call that an out-and-out, bald-faced lie if ever there was one.

wideym
July 21, 2008, 06:56 AM
I've fired the 460, but not the 500. The recoil was a pussycat compared to what I expected, but the concussion was astounding (shooting at open air range). If you didn't hit the target the blast wave would knock it down.

It was a friends gun and I didn't want to shoot up all his expensive ammo, but I would have loved to shoot more than a cylinder full. Big bore pistols don't interest me enough to spend that kind of money on, although they are fun to shoot. Hopefully one of my freinds will by the 500 soon.

Stainz
July 21, 2008, 08:01 AM
Recoil is so subjective - and dependent on grip size/construction, I never 'accept' other's reports as 'Gospel'. I wouldn't touch a .44 Magnum for nearly a quarter of a century after a friend's homebrews from his lacquered wood target gripped 29 blistered and split the web of my hand. Near the end of that moratorium found me buying my first DA revolver - a .454 SRH. It was acceptable due to it's better ergonomics. I've shot other bouncers - including the .500 S&W Magnum, .45-70 BFR, .50 AE DEII, and, holder of the least comfortable to shoot handgun title in my book, a 340 with hot .357M Cor Bons (Nothing to hold on to!).

Everyone of those bouncers is different - and no writer 'warned' me ahead of time. That .45-70 BFR tired my arms holding it up at arm's length - it was heavy! The .50AE DEII didn't kick badly - it was that rotational 'jerk' in your wrist that followed as the rotational inertia was taken up by your wrist - really painful to my CTS-riddled wrists. No gun writer warned me. The .500 Magnum was 'healthy' in weight - and recoil - but it was lessened and lengthened in time by the absorptive backstrap covering new style grips. A fellow forum member found that they fit K, L, & N frames, too - I now have a 4" & 6" 629 sporting them. Again, no gun writer warned me.

It's been stated - and I concur - gun mags must sell advertising, so don't expect a proper critique. Of course, Gun Tests' is different - too much so to some - actually an 'acquired' taste to some.

Stainz

gizamo
July 21, 2008, 08:14 AM
Vanilla Gorilla is spot on....
The Charles Petty article on "Much Ado About Nothing" was both a disgrace and a dis-service to the readers of AHG. The follow-up comments in the magazine by editor Roy blasting the internet forum sites, such as this ~ were also of note.

To be fair, Roy Huntington did what a good editor must ~ take the heat...He did so many times on this issue...I do not recall seeing anything from Charlie Petty addressing his article in follow up..

The magazines take on the lock was that the consumer has better things to worry about then a perfectly functioning lock that will not develope any problems, short of internet rumors....

Sad day in the annals of gunwriting....

And as Stainz said ~ "It's been stated - and I concur - gun mags must sell advertising, so don't expect a proper critique."

Couldn't agree more....


Giz

Thaddeus Jones
July 21, 2008, 10:04 AM
Well said Gizamo and Vanilla Gorilla.

I cancelled my subscription after that ridiculous article ran, and that editor ridiculed all the readers who wrote in subsequently to complain about it.

American Handgunner won't get my money. Let S&W prop them up :barf:. TJ

hhb
July 21, 2008, 10:49 AM
A couple of years ago, one of the slick paper gun magazines did a comprehensive article on the Remington Model 700. No once did they mention that the older 700's had a horrible reputation for discharging when the user tried to unload.

mec
July 21, 2008, 10:55 AM
Editors tend to get the heat for things that are often beyond their control. It's impossible for them to vet everything they get from a writer and writers have their own problems extracting true information from gun companies. You have to be really conservative about quoting company reps or you end up in the dark swollowing mushroom food.

Proof readers are something you hear about but like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, nobody ever actually sees them. I am a lousy proof reader but I know people who believe that they are excellent proof readers but manage to screw up almost as badly as I do.

SlamFire1
July 21, 2008, 11:10 AM
As for Handgunner, I'd have to say it's the most accurate handgun specialty mag I've seen. Rifle and Handloader have even higher standards,

Dave Scovill, the editor of Rifle is one of the worst shill editors in print. Last year he was bemoaning Winchester’s demise in his section. He had taken a Winchester all expenses paid hunting experience, complete with banquets (and he mentioned other editors and gunwriters there) to shoot and shill for the new Winchester leveraction line up. Later, Winchester discontinued those firearms, and he was stuck having to adapt material for a non existent cause. His publication is simply an infomercial for the firearms industry.

I continue to read articles in Rifle that time after time gloss over firearms imperfections.

The June issue of Rifle is an example. The article on the Remington 798 is an example of shilling at it best. The rifle was inaccurate, so they did not print a matrix of target accuracy with loads, the rifle was so poorly built that the bolt and receiver were an interference fit, making for stiff action movement. The author than describes that as old world craftsmanship, and claims the action will wear in to a butter smooth condition. Not without lapping compound.

And I was totally surprised that Remington shipped such a poor rifle to a gunwriter. You would think that after paying for a positive article, they would have sent a rifle that had no issues. They really made the author work much harder to sell the rifle, because he had to gloss over problems, or claim defects as quality attributes.

The articles in Rifle are paid advertisements. Many articles have pictures of the authors next to Africa big game, or American big game, holding the firearm under topic. Do you think these gunwriters are Millionaires, able to pay for all these $20,000-$50,000 hunting trips on their own nickel?

The only negatives you will hear will be about older production. They will promote today's production as the best, a vast improvement over old and nasty from last year. When you follow up, you will find that they were not dissing old and nasty when it was new production.

.38 Special
July 21, 2008, 12:17 PM
Just goes to show you can find someone to dislike just about anything.

TimboKhan
July 21, 2008, 12:40 PM
The Charles Petty article on "Much Ado About Nothing" was both a disgrace and a dis-service to the readers of AHG. The follow-up comments in the magazine by editor Roy blasting the internet forum sites, such as this ~ were also of note.

Funny, I liked that article and thought it was pretty accurate. I actually extended my subscription because of it...

csmkersh
July 21, 2008, 12:52 PM
At the time of the article, the only reports of S&W safety problems was an unsubstantiated or unverifiable report by Mas Ayoop. CP asked Mas for additional details and got none. Charlie isn't much into rumor, even if it's from his buddy, Mas.

tinygnat219
July 21, 2008, 01:11 PM
I like Duke Veturino, Clint Smith and Massad Ayoob in that magazine. The rest I can live without, especially that John Connor fellow.

Massad's articles are always interesting to read and he always comes across as the most serious of gun students, always looking to refine his technique.

Duke just writes interesting articles as does Clint.

csmkersh
July 21, 2008, 01:35 PM
I have no use for Clint Smith. Haven't since he call any that dared to disagree with him "Turd Suckers," and the rag printed it.

M1911
July 21, 2008, 01:53 PM
I suggest that you read Dean Speir's article about writing for gun magazines, including American Handgunner. http://www.thegunzone.com/gunwriter.html

Tim Burke
July 21, 2008, 07:34 PM
I've discussed the lock issue with Charlie on several occasions. While I disagree with him on it, I think the article accurately reflects his opinion. I have not heard him swear, on even one occasion, much less over and over again, that those who have problems with their post-lock S&W revolvers locking up unintentionally are liars or have no idea how to use a firearm.

.38 Special
July 21, 2008, 07:52 PM
Seems to me that there is a certain kind of person that wants his gun magazine to say lots of good stuff about the guns he likes, lots of bad stuff about the guns he hates, and any editorializing to match his personal views. And when any of those conditions are not met, he writes angry letters to the editor about how the writers are a bunch of shills for (insert name of gun maker he hates) and he's canceling his subscription.

Not that I'm accusing anyone here of that, but if you read enough of those letters you learn to detect that particular tone...

M1911
July 21, 2008, 08:59 PM
lots of bad stuff about the guns he hates,There is a gun magazine that says bad things about a gun?

.38 Special
July 21, 2008, 09:03 PM
Gun Tests.

My problem with Gun Tests is that they've sometimes tested several guns -- of which I own examples of each -- and come to completely opposite conclusions from my own. This, I think, is the problem with gun reviews in general: they're reporting on a sample of one, which is, if we're being honest, completely useless.

I suppose I ought to write a letter of complaint, or perhaps start a thread...

Thernlund
July 21, 2008, 09:05 PM
The rest I can live without, especially that John Connor fellow.

Heh. I like John Connor.


-T.

bestseller92
July 21, 2008, 10:33 PM
As far as Gun Tests testing only one gun of any particular model, isn't that what every gunmag really does? When's the last time you saw any gun magazine review more than one specimen of any particular model?

tinygnat219
July 21, 2008, 10:48 PM
Thernlund,

Heh. I like John Connor.

Yeah, many people do. I just don't care for his blowhardedness.

mec
July 21, 2008, 11:48 PM
they're reporting on a sample of one, which is, if we're

That is a definate limitation as is the finite nature of new gun evaluations. You fire 3-500 rounds of ammunition through a gun and get a pretty good picture of how it functions but can only guess about what it will be doing after 3-5000 rounds.

Logan5
July 22, 2008, 01:00 AM
Basically you're right where I ended up with American Handgunner in 1986.

.38 Special
July 22, 2008, 01:30 AM
As far as Gun Tests testing only one gun of any particular model, isn't that what every gunmag really does? When's the last time you saw any gun magazine review more than one specimen of any particular model?
Almost never, but that's not the main point. It's that Gun Tests will dump on a model based upon that sample of one.

The funny bit is that I'm pretty sure it was Mike Venturino who recently wrote in Handgunner about the futility of gun tests in magazines, primarily because of the "sample of one" deal.

I guess that may one of the things about gunrags that bothers some people but not me. I don't really read them for tests of new guns, because A) most new guns bore the daylights out of me, and B) most new guns do shoot bullets out the barrel when the trigger is pulled. So when I even bother to read new gun reviews, I don't really care about the accuracy -- or inaccuracy -- of said reviews.

Stainz
July 22, 2008, 07:11 AM
When we bemoaned the gaudy new TR21 on various forums, Clint Smith retaliated by labelling us, as mentioned earlier. I like his fire - and was actually somewhat flattered. Of course, I voted with my wallet - wouldn't even touch the TR21/22 when CDNN had them on closeout. Gotta enjoy Taffin - even Venturino, although I still wonder where he got 'Duke' from. I guess the most salient point/suggestion offered thus far was to write them expressing your dissatisfaction - and ask for a refund of your unmailled copies - if you are really upset.

Of course, I am an easy dog to hunt with - I have eight S&Ws with ILs! I do keep looking for that article on deerhunting with hand grenades, however... (TFIC)!

Stainz

MCgunner
July 22, 2008, 07:50 AM
Yeah, they told me the Ramline Exactor .22 pistol was the wave of the future and a great handgun and a huge breakthrough in firearms.......:rolleyes: Yeah, well, I have one, bought into the hype. Maybe there'll be collector value someday since I think they sold maybe TWO. Not sure who the other sucker was. Meanwhile, I have a Ruger for actual USE!:banghead: New is not always better. I could use Smith and Wesson as an example, too.

mec
July 22, 2008, 09:30 AM
although I still wonder where he got 'Duke' from

I heard that he picked up that name because he had a horse named Duke when he was guiding horse tours for one of the national parks.

csmkersh
July 22, 2008, 10:26 AM
Taffin and Bart Skelton are two of my favorite current writers. Man, I miss Bart's dad and his "Joe and I" stories. FWIW, I'm from West Texas too - Big Spring.

Double Naught Spy
July 22, 2008, 12:20 PM
AH is just another glorified advertising medium. While they may tell you of features they don't like sometimes, they are still very generous with their reviews.

If you want the unvarnished truth, subscribe to Gun Tests Magazine. They have no advertisers to sweat and buy the firearms they test. You may not agree with their choices, but they do call 'em as they see 'em.

I would not called Gun Tests "unvarnished truth" expect to mean they express their true opinions, often salted with ignorance and extreme subjectivity. They will down rate a gun because they didn't like it, even if it was the best performer of the group being tested and not the most costly.

The Tourist
July 22, 2008, 12:30 PM
As a business, clearly a magazine has to make money. The newsstand price is one way, and advertising is openly another. The choices made between honesty and pleasing a major client will always be a delicate balancing act. And I don't think anyone is being fooled.

But there are ways to read between the lines. Anytime a writer uses the phrase, "...(the firearm) was not up to their usual high standards of quality, and simply a tool room mule..." then you know smoke is being directed up your skirt.

As for the subject of recoil, one of the best articles I ever read was on the issue of cumulative recoil and nerve damage in the hand. This got my attention, because I obviously my hands are my bread and butter.

The writer lamented how decades of handgun recoil had damaged a nerve running directly across his palm. Since then I have worn a PAST shooting glove. All ego aside, you might like the thrill of a big bore's blast, but someday you will be an older man and it would be nice to feel with your fingers.

plexreticle
July 22, 2008, 12:35 PM
A gun rag that misrepresents or stretches the truth? I don't believe it.

Matt-J2
July 22, 2008, 12:41 PM
If The Tourist is really a 14yr old female cheerleader, does that mean that responding to uh, her, posts mean we'll all end up on To Catch a Predator?:uhoh::p

hrgrisso
September 26, 2008, 10:05 PM
I like the format of Gun Tests but I finally threw in the towel when I got frustrated with them comparing a SigP226 to a SigP220 and two 1911's. Then deciding that the Caliber of the 9mm was the problem and that the 220 wasn't a 1911.

I really hated when they would compare rifles and compare a .308 something and a high priced AR to a Kel-Tec folding rifle and say that the .308 was a better more pleasant rifle and one to trust your life with.... WHAT!?!? They are different guns you rejects! GGGRRRR! It was at that point I couldn't handle it anymore and I surrendered my subscription.

Then they tried to double bill me a 2nd one which didn't make anyone happy!

I'll stick to AH and reading between the lines.

papajohn
September 27, 2008, 05:37 PM
I got my first subscription to a gun magazine 43 years ago, and I've seen an awful lot of BS printed as gospel, mostly to please a manufacturer or ten. I started with Guns & Ammo, later on found Shooting Times, Gun Tests, Petersen's Handguns, there was even one for a while called Handgun Quarterly, which came out six times a year. I still giggle over that.

Sometime during the Cameron Hopkins era, I found American Handgunner and GUNS, their sister publication. Ayoob was there, as was Mr. Petty, and there was a LOT of experience there, if not outright expertise. My subscriptions have never lapsed in the 20 years since, something that can't be said for the Super-shills, the gunzines that never met a piece of junk they didn't love.

I don't over-analyze the writing, I just try to hear what the writer is getting at without parsing it. Venturino is very open about how vacuous most articles are and why they have to be, given the restraints of their editors. Clint Smith has a lot of experience, and makes a good trainer, even if he's not Pulitzer material. No Big Deal, we're talking about guns and shooting here, not Shakespearean theater.

And Massad Ayoob is...........Massad Ayoob. I've been reading his stuff for what seems like 35 years, and it may actually be that long. I may not agree with everything he writes, but I find very few points that aren't well made and well-reasoned. The Ayoob Files is something I savor every 65 days, and I also have the book. There are LOTS of good lessons, for cops and civilians alike. He writes about something no one else even whispered about for a long time.

Roy Huntington may not be Henry Luce, but I like him. He's genuine, passionate, and reminds me of a lot of the cops I've worked with. He doesn't pull punches with readers who send him hate mail over stupid stuff, and if there's something un-PC to be said, he's your man. And proud of that.

Connor writes some stuff I like, when he's talking about past "Excursions" or incidents in faraway places. Most of it includes a lesson, and a well-illustrated point. Some of his columns about equipment and toys are as dry and ponderous as reading Shooting Times cover to cover three times in a row. But when he's funny and/or poignant, he's VERY good.

As for being lied to..........no, never. Disparate opinions, yes. But nobody agrees with much I say, let alone ALL of it. :neener: That's why we call them opinions.

Papajohn

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