CZ/clones questions


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Rittmeister
July 20, 2008, 06:07 PM
It's been AGES since I posted here...

I've been muddling along for a few years with my 1911 and my Hi-Power, and recently have felt the urge to pick up another handgun. I'm very interested in the CZ75 and its clones, and after quite a lot of research here and elsewhere I still have several questions. Hopefully some of the kind folks around here can help.

To start - I'm looking for a full-size, steel, 9mm pistol. I'd like one that has readily-available magazines and parts. This gun will not be used for carry, but for range fun and possibly as a house gun (though I use my .45 for that most often). Finally, I'm a teacher; I'm prepared to pay for a real CZ if I can find one (more on that below) but if I can go on a lower budget that would be nice ;)

1. Of the true CZs, the SA interests me the most. However, my local gun shops have actually told me they can't get them. I wouldn't be surprised if the SA were a new item, but it's not... I'd like to buy locally to avoid the necessity of an FFL transfer, but these guys are actually telling me their distributors don't carry them! Any thoughts?

2. On the Witness pistols - I like the fact that you can retract the slide and load/unload with the safety on. I'm seeing a LOT of confusion about frame sizes though. I'd like a standard gun with 3-dot sights, steel frame, that takes 15-16 round mags (notably the Mec-Gar 16 rounders at CDNN). I think what I want is the "small" frame, (not compact, just the opposite of the .45/10mm frame) but I'm wondering if it's still in production. If I buy a new-manufacture 9mm Witness what am I actually getting? BTW, the caliber convertibility is nice but I'm not sure how much I care - I'm not looking at that as a buying point, in other words.

Another question - how hard is it to get parts for Witness pistols?

3. The AR24. It's new, it's "hot", and I have no idea on true compatibility with other CZ-type pistols, or availability of parts etc. I'm leaning away from this gun already frankly, mostly because of its newness.

I think I'm the most sold on the Witness right now, unless I find that parts are tough to get, and assuming I can find the "right" frame. This may seem stupid, but in looking at pictures, it seems that what I want is the frame that accepts flat-bottom metal magazines (like factory Hi-power), not the mags that have a bumper that sort of matches the contour of the frontstrap.

Any thoughts (regarding CZ/clones, don't try to talk me into anything else) would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

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Cliff47
July 20, 2008, 06:19 PM
I'll keep it short: CZech out the CZForum at www.CZForum.com. Lots of information on the entire line of CZ pistols, Dan Wesson pistols, and a CZ Classifieds that may just have what you are looking for at any given time. See you there.

Rittmeister
July 20, 2008, 07:00 PM
Been there, and am still looking around. I would appreciate any input regardless.

ceadermtnboy
July 20, 2008, 07:22 PM
I have the Armalite AR-24 full size with adj sights and checkered forestrap and backstrap. I personally think they are better made than the CZ. However aftermarket parts such as grips, sights, etc are non-existant at this point. You can get mags easily enough so thats not a problem. Mine is very accurate and reliable and worth all $455.00 I paid for it. I would reccomend it. In fact I am seriously thinking about adding the compact version because they feel great in the hand, and will conceal better. Anyway the CZ design is top notch and you will not go wrong in whatever pistol you decide on.

goon
July 20, 2008, 07:37 PM
On the SA, why are you so hung up on that variant?
The Standard 75B allows cocked-and-locked use AND it allows you to have a DA first shot.
You get to choose.
Why limit yourself by removing an option that you might end up liking?
Especially considering that as a house gun, it wouldn't really hurt anything to store it with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber, which would mean that it basically wouldn't matter that the gun wasn't an SA because it would become an SA as soon as you chamber a round anyway.
Also, the triggers on the CZ's I've owned started out OK, then really smoothed up after a couple hundred rounds. My new-to-me P-01 is no exception - dry firing has really smoothed things out.
The SA trigger on any broken-in CZ will probably end up being pretty good. All things being equal, I wouldn't choose to not get a standard 75B based only on the SA trigger. IIRC, CZ can switch the trigger to an SA later if that's what you want (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Just my thoughts...

Also, I'd never try to talk you out of a CZ and into something else.
I haven't heard anything bad about most clones but the only one I've ever shot myself was an IMI baby eagle. It seemed to be a good gun, meaning it was reliable and shot well. IIRC, it was also steel framed and a little heavier than a compact CZ.
But I'd still stick with a real CZ.
For one, the price isn't that bad on a CZ compared to its competition. They're often $100 less than that something comparable and in my experience, are more reliable and accurate than SIG's.
Second, if that's what you like you should just spend the extra $50 and get it. Why buy something you don't like when you can have a quality gun that's exactly what you want for just a little more? If you settle for something else, you'll probably just end up trading for a CZ eventually anyhow. So just get what you want the first time.

eerw
July 20, 2008, 07:47 PM
The 75SA is available..several online sellers have them..might have your dealer call CZ-USA.

the small frame tanfoglio (witness ) is still made..but not being imported by EAA..they have standardized on the large frame version in all the calibers.

I like the CZ..due to the availability of parts, mags and accessories..and the support of the the shooting sports I participate in. Of the other clone companies, only Tanfoglio supports shooting sports..but that is outside the borders of the US.

BlindJustice
July 20, 2008, 07:50 PM
+1 Goon, and the CZ has the aftermarket/factory parts support.

I bought a standard blued CZ 75B 2 1/2 Months ago - 580 rds fired
of various bullet type/weight & manufactuerer - 100% reliable & very
accurate - I have a 1911 and no problem with Cocked & Locked carry.
However, I like the DA/SA of the 75B - expands my handgun experience,
& like another poster said, charge the chamber, at the range it's mostly
SA - it doesn't go to DA by itself. I think the SA version has a
different hammer which makes it's SA trigger pull a bit shorter. This mod.
is available at Ghost, Arizona - where the CZ guru and champion
has the CZ Custom shop - any part you can think of is there.

Randall

Rittmeister
July 20, 2008, 08:23 PM
Responses:

I like the idea of the SA CZ for several reasons. First, I'm very used to the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power, which are of course SA; I wouldn't have much in the way of habits to change. Second, as far as I'm concerned the standard CZ75B would effectively be a single action pistol in my hands; the idea of charging the chamber, then pulling the trigger and easing the hammer down on a live round is pretty disconcerting. I know it can be done safely but it makes me more than a little nervous. Finally, and I admit this is silly, I like the look of the SA better - the slide profile at the muzzle is IMO more aesthetically pleasing and I like the extended beavertail. Stupid I admit but there you go.

Next question - when looking at online ads/auctions, what should I look for to identify the large vs. small frame Witness? Mag bumper, mag capacity, what? And which frame do the standard Mec-Gar 16-round mags fit (these: http://www.cdnninvestments.com/wi9mm16manew.html )? This is of course assuming they even show a picture of the pistol for sale; I've already seen tons of auctions where they are advertising a polymer frame gun but have a picture of a steel frame.

Dobe
July 20, 2008, 08:29 PM
3. The AR24. It's new, it's "hot", and I have no idea on true compatibility with other CZ-type pistols, or availability of parts etc. I'm leaning away from this gun already frankly, mostly because of its newness.



Don't sell this one short.

Most of the CZ clones are not clones, but rather versioned copies.

Rittmeister
July 20, 2008, 11:28 PM
Most of the CZ clones are not clones, but rather versioned copies.

This is understood. "Clones" is probably a lousy term, but it sounds better/more polite in my mind than "ripoff" or "knockoff" if that makes any sense.

railroader
July 20, 2008, 11:30 PM
http://www.whittakerguns.com/ This is where I got my cz75sa. They have good prices. Mark

goon
July 21, 2008, 12:04 AM
On the SA - if that's what you like you should go for it, even if only for aesthetic reasons and familiarity. If it's what you like and you prefer it over anything else, that's what you should spend your money on.
I also agree with whoever it was that said to have your dealer check with CZ.
My local shop in podunk PA can get CZ's direct so there shouldn't be any problem with any shop getting them.

Pilot
July 21, 2008, 09:02 AM
Second, as far as I'm concerned the standard CZ75B would effectively be a single action pistol in my hands; the idea of charging the chamber, then pulling the trigger and easing the hammer down on a live round is pretty disconcerting. I know it can be done safely but it makes me more than a little nervous.

There is nothing wrong or difficult in lowering the hammer on a gun with the round in the chamber. The CZ is designed for doing this as it can be carried in DA mode at the safety notch. I have done it a lot over the years of shooting my CZ-75B, but if you prefer the SA get that. The "B" does allow cocked and locked carry as well, so you get the flexibility of both. CZ also makes similar pistols with a decocker that decocks to the safety notch. My 75D PCR is like that. Any of the "D" models also have a decocker, such as the full size "BD" model. Many also like the P-01 which has a decocker and light rail, but I see no use for a rail on a gun.

Rittmeister
July 21, 2008, 09:17 AM
Yes, I'm aware of the decocker versions... not terribly interested in those to be frank. I also am set on a full-size rather than compact (PCR/P01) frame.

When you carry double action, you say you carry with the hammer on the "safety notch." Is this what I think of as the half-cock notch? With the hammer in that position, can it still be operated as a double action pistol by pulling the trigger, or must you thumb-cock the hammer to put it back into SA mode?

atblis
July 21, 2008, 09:25 AM
The AR24. It's new, it's "hot", and I have no idea on true compatibility with other CZ-type pistols, or availability of parts etc. I'm leaning away from this gun already frankly, mostly because of its newness.
I wouldn't call it hot. I suspect they'll be in the CDNN Invesmtents catalog here in a bit (planning on picking one up then). They look like solidly made pistols, and I suspect Armalite would take care of you.

The 75B SA does seem tricky to find. I wouldn't worry about the FFL transfer. It's not difficult and should not be expensive <$25. Just shop around. If a shop gives you any grief and or wants too much, go to the next one.

There's a good probability Tanfoglio parts will work in the AR.

Of the three choices, I'd be inclined to go with
1st CZ. Known performer and good service and some parts
2nd the Armalite. Feels/looks solid. Bit of an unknown. Parts??
3rd the EAA Horrid service, but cheap.

However, if I found a deal on any one of those, I'd jump on that.

EDIT: Oh yeah, almost forgot you've got three other choices
Armscor: This is interesting. It looks straight Tanfoglio and is a small frame. Company has a decent CS history. I'd check this one out.
Baby Eagle. I think they still use the small frame 9mm. Decent pistols.
Academy Sarsilmaz. Academy is importing a Turkish 9x19. Looks like a straight Tanfolgio. SHould be small frame.

FEG
July 21, 2008, 11:39 AM
When you carry double action, you say you carry with the hammer on the "safety notch." Is this what I think of as the half-cock notch? With the hammer in that position, can it still be operated as a double action pistol by pulling the trigger, or must you thumb-cock the hammer to put it back into SA mode?

Type B CZ 75/85 series pistols with a manual safety can be safely carried in three different ways:

1) Condition 1. All shots are SA.

2) Condition 2. First shot is DA from full rest (hammer completely down), subsequent shots are SA.

3) Condition 1.5. First shot is DA from half-cock notch (hammer approximately halfway down), subsequent shots are SA. You aren't supposed to thumb cock the hammer, but I guess nothing really prevents it.

Note that Type B CZs with a decocker actually decock to the half-cock notch, not full rest. I communicated with Mike Eagleshield (CZ-USA gunsmith) back in 2002 or so, and he represented to the CZ Forum that the Type Bs with the manual safety can also be carried safely on the half-cock notch. Not too many people do this with the manual safety models, though, because they do not realize it is as safe as full rest. (The product literature and instruction manuals do not mention it.)

goon
July 21, 2008, 12:20 PM
Rittmeister - you would be carrying it at the safety intercept notch if you lowered the hammer from full cock.
It can still be fired DA for that first shot (It's actually designed that way) and it's pretty safe. They put the P-01 (which is only DA/SA and uses a decocker) through all kinds of drop tests and it passed with flying colors.

FEG
July 21, 2008, 01:56 PM
Rittmeister - you would be carrying it at the safety intercept notch if you lowered the hammer from full cock.
It can still be fired DA for that first shot (It's actually designed that way) and it's pretty safe. They put the P-01 (which is only DA/SA and uses a decocker) through all kinds of drop tests and it passed with flying colors.

The manual and other resources from CZ instruct the user to manually decock to full rest (hammer all of the way down) on the models with a manual safety, rather than decocker. The 75/85 series pistols were originally designed this way. In fact, they didn't even have a half-cock notch until 1980. I would not advise carrying a Type A CZ 75/85 series pistol on the half-cock notch. The design was altered at some point in the early 1990s to accomodate this, but it is probably best to assume it isn't safe with a true Type A (1977-1992). I would recommend emailing CZ-USA for a clarification if you want to carry a pre-B on the half-cock notch.

info@cz-usa.com

Carrying a manual safety model on the half-cock notch is perfectly safe with a Type B 75/85 series pistol. However, I don't think many people do it that way.

The decocker function on the D models decocks to the half-cock notch, and it is definitely designed for this. For one thing, if you manually decock to full rest on a D model, the DA trigger pull feels about twice as heavy and stacks like crazy.


EDIT: The firing pin block ("B") has nothing directly to do with it, but the introduction of the B models roughly corresponded with the introduction of the beefed-up half-cock notch. Apparently, this feature wasn't considered necessary until the introduction of the decocking models.

Dobe
July 21, 2008, 06:23 PM
The 75B SA does seem tricky to find. I wouldn't worry about the FFL transfer. It's not difficult and should not be expensive <$25. Just shop around. If a shop gives you any grief and or wants too much, go to the next one.


I have this model. I do like it, and find it to be an accurate and very fun gun to shoot. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone who wanted a CZ.

Rittmeister
July 23, 2008, 01:02 AM
I want to thank all who contributed. For better or worse, I put down a deposit on an Armscor MAP1 9mm today, should have it later in the week. This pistol seems to fit my desires and my pocketbook the best.

Thanks!

tekarra
July 23, 2008, 08:04 PM
Rittmeister,
Remember to post photos and a report after you shoot your new Armscor.

Rittmeister
July 24, 2008, 12:48 AM
I'm just hoping the pistol I ordered is the one that shows up - the amount of research I had to do to find the older-style small-frame Tanfoglio was downright silly.

With a little luck it'll be here tomorrow (Thurs) but more likely Friday. I'll snap some pics and post them here.

loop
July 24, 2008, 05:19 AM
The MAP1 imported by Armscor is made by Tanfoglio. It is the small frame version that is not imported by EAA.

Most Tanfogilo parts, with the exception of magazine-related parts, will fit the small frame.

Henning Walgren is a factory Tanfoglio shooter who lives in Colorado. He has a small shop and sells and makes parts for Tanfoglios. He also usually has some parts for the small frames. His Web site is: http://www.tanfoglioparts.com/

The small frame Armscor is brining in is not competitive with EAA because EAA chooses not to import it. I don't own any 9mms, but have several Tanfoglios in .45. It is my understanding that the CZ75 mags will work in the MAP1.

If you have questions about your gun and what will fit it, call Henning. He knows more about them than anyone else. If you want custom work done to it I recommend Canyon Creek. They work on Henning's guns and even post a price list for Tanfoglio custom work. Their Web site is: http://www.canyoncreekcustom.com/Home_Page.html

FEG
July 24, 2008, 11:39 AM
I'm just hoping the pistol I ordered is the one that shows up - the amount of research I had to do to find the older-style small-frame Tanfoglio was downright silly.

No one sells new Tanfoglios in my area. This is the main reason I've never owned one. For the reason you mention, I feel better seeing the pistol in person first.

Dobe
July 24, 2008, 02:43 PM
I just got my AR24 back from Birdsong. Black T is awsome. I wish I had access to a camera. I was surprised how much it slicked up the trigger.

Rittmeister
July 24, 2008, 03:44 PM
Well, I was right to be nervous. Went to the shop this afternoon and sure enough it was the polymer frame. I sometimes wonder why I bother to support local businesses, when in my area they are so often incompetent.

Anyone know of a source for the Armscor? I was hoping to have it for the weekend as I am making a trip to see some friends/family and will be doing some shooting. That looks to be impossible now.

ak-47man.com, also known as 5280armory says they have them but I can't get them to answer the phone. Any input gratefully received.

edit - just read ak-47man.com's site a little more carefully and apparently they're not open except Fri-Sun, so that explains that.

atblis
July 24, 2008, 05:55 PM
Go Here
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/rockisland9mmsteelfullsizepartac-map1fs.aspx

Rittmeister
July 24, 2008, 07:12 PM
atblis, you might be my new favorite person. More follows in a day or so.

Riss
July 24, 2008, 07:19 PM
As for the CZ-75 B SA, single action, go to the group buys at the bottom of the main page. He gave me a good number on one, made no mention of limited availability, or no can get. Just have to scratch up some dough. And IMHO it is the best one besides the competition models that are over $1000.

Rittmeister
July 25, 2008, 01:42 PM
Well, placed the order with Centerfire Systems. They had ONE left, they say it is steel with flat-bottom mags, which should mean it's the smaller-framed Tanfoglio... we'll find out when it arrives.

Rittmeister
July 26, 2008, 04:15 PM
Success!

Arrived at my FFL today and I brought it home. Well-packed and actually has Rock Island roll marks on it. Pictures will have to wait a week or so as I am leaving tomorrow for a trip, but I will post if folks are interested.

atblis, thanks again, you were spot on in your recommendation.

Dobe
July 26, 2008, 04:20 PM
Congratulations. We look forward to the pictures.

atblis
July 31, 2008, 10:05 PM
Make sure you give us a range report. I've been curious about the Rock Islands since I saw one at a show. I am hoping for a good alternative to EAA.

Rittmeister
August 1, 2008, 04:29 PM
Just back from my trip; the Tanfoglio/Witness/Armscor/Rock Island 9mm is a nice pistol. Was completely reliable (NO failures of any kind) with about 200 rounds of FMJ ammo. Shoots slightly low however, and it's not me - both my brother and my cousin (who's a gunsmith) also fired the pistol and found the same issue. The windage is dead-on, but the elevation is not; it has fixed 3-dot sights and I've never had a gun before that didn't shoot to point-of-aim so I'm not certain what to do about it. Any input appreciated.

I will try to post pictures within the next few days.

atblis
August 1, 2008, 04:38 PM
Is the front sight dovetailed?

Contact RIA, in theory they should have taller/lower rear and or front sights to correct for this. Most manufacturers do. I guess it's possible they don't have them, as they're just getting started in the CZ clone game.

tekarra
August 1, 2008, 06:31 PM
Rittmeister,
You forgot the photos.

Rittmeister
August 2, 2008, 12:17 AM
Front sight appears to be part of the slide, it's not dovetailed and I can't see a seam that would indicate it being staked. I'll be getting in touch with Armscor/RIA on Monday.

Pics will be forthcoming...

eerw
August 2, 2008, 12:31 AM
if it is shooting low..you can file the top of the front sight to raise the POI

loop
August 2, 2008, 07:06 AM
Staked front sight - easy fix.

Consider your sight picture. Are you shooting combat sights or target sights?

Low is good. Means you either have to buy ammo with slower bullets or mod the sight. Either is easy.

Rittmeister
August 2, 2008, 10:01 AM
Well, they're 3-dot sights. Since I'm lining up the dots as well as the sights, not sure if filing the sight will help. In any case I'd rather have one that shoots to point of aim out of the box without my changing anything, and as such will be contacting Armscor on Monday.

Again, I'm not sure if the front sight is staked or is made as one piece with the slide, I just can't tell.

Here are a few admittedly lousy pictures - just got a new camera and I'm still fooling with it. I tried to show the rollmarks but at least the one picture is an OK shot of the whole pistol.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c88/kwstine1/IMG_0404.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c88/kwstine1/IMG_0400.jpg

atblis
August 2, 2008, 10:41 AM
Staked front sight - easy fix.
I think EAA's Tanfolgios have had the sight actually cast as part of the slide. It could be like that and not staked.

JeepGeek
August 2, 2008, 10:45 AM
Incorrect. EAA front sights are actually seperate parts.

atblis
August 2, 2008, 11:35 AM
Incorrect. EAA front sights are actually seperate parts.
I am almost certain the recent base model witnesses are cast as part of the slide.

EDIT:
Do you think this is staked in place or part of the slide? I guess if they finished the slide with sight already on it might cover up any seams.

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/atblis/IMG_06551c.JPG

Rittmeister
August 2, 2008, 08:24 PM
That looks a lot like mine. I can't see a seam on my pistol, or in that picture. I think my only recourse right now is to contact Armscor on Monday...

Rittmeister
August 4, 2008, 12:31 PM
Update: I called Armscor in Nevada today, and spoke with Ivan. He has asked me to send the pistol to them, and stated that they'd either fix the problem or send me a new pistol. If they stand by that statement, they'll have a happy customer.

The story continues...

GZOh
August 4, 2008, 12:42 PM
Ritt... As you inspected the new gun, what were your impressions on 'quality' and workmanship... what other pistols do you own?
Don't own any RI's/Armscors but everyone I've ever spoken to says their CS is 'outstanding!'... so we'll see what happens, don't think you'll encounter problems.

eerw
August 4, 2008, 12:52 PM
Base model EAA have the front sight as part of the slide..the mid level and top models have a dovetail for the front sight.

Ivan is good people..

what bullet weight and type of ammo are you shooting. different bullet types and weights will have different points of impact.

but if your favorite load isn't printing where you want it..

Rittmeister
August 4, 2008, 03:27 PM
GZOh, fit and finish seemed pretty good. I managed to nick the bluing a few times while being fairly careful, so Gun-Kote may be in the pistol's future. The gun seems solidly built and well-fitted together; the groups I shot with it were pretty good (considering my ability) in terms of size, just in the wrong place...

My other pistols are: an FM Hi-Power (ex-Argentine military), factory refurbished; it's the jankyiest of my pistols but goes bang every time I pull the trigger and is reasonably accurate. I also own an early full-size Kimber, which I've had set up with an add-on light rail and Trijicon night sights. It's my nicest gun. I would compare the Armscor favorably with the Kimber, and say that it's a good bit nicer than the FM.

eerw, I was shooting some Winchester white box and some Blazer brass, all 115-grain standard velocity loadings. Again, I'm not the only one who had the problem - both my brother and my cousin fired the pistol and all of us experienced the low impact point. It appears that this gun might be what you've called the "base model" from Tanfoglio; there's no dovetail for the front sight. Maybe it's meant for hotter loads, but I confess that wouldn't please me.

Reliability with both supplied mags was 100% for about 250 rounds. All I did was take it apart, clean off the packing grease, lightly lube it, and go shoot. It had no failures of any kind, so I'm quite happy with that aspect of it.

surveyor
August 4, 2008, 04:53 PM
I put this on my steel witness.. the rear sight was set further back in the slide than yours appears though..

http://www.ajaxgrips.com/ajax/psi?set=02,48976b71&geometry=4x3-1-19

eerw
August 5, 2008, 09:32 AM
a friend turned out has a couple of these..and got to see them last night at our indoor match.

guns looked nice. front sight sight is part of the slide, the fit seemed decent. triggers were decent..had that short mainspring feel to them as you pull the DA trigger. SA was heavy but decent. its based off the small frame tanfoglio..so the grip feels small like a CZ.


just asking about the ammo..since 115s are pretty common you'd hope that it would shoot POA/POI..but a heavier bullet 124 or 147 might cure that problem.

Rittmeister
August 5, 2008, 05:32 PM
Wouldn't a heavier bullet, with the same pressure loading, drop the bullet further? I haven't done much ballistic research but that's what seems intuitive.

tipoc
August 5, 2008, 06:22 PM
All else being equal the heavier 124 gr. bullet will shoot higher and the lighter 115 gr. bullet lower. There will likely be only an inch or two difference at 15 yards in POI though, not that much to worry about.

Fixed sights are set for one or another weight bullet. In the 9 mm either 115 or 124 gr. As the gun fires the muzzle flips upward. Fixed sights are adjusted to accommodate for this upward rise. The heavier rounds have more recoil and more muzzle rise while the 115 gr. load has less recoil and less muzzle rise so if the piece is regulated for 124 gr. than the 115 will shoot a bit lower.

Also I've had a number of guns over the years with white dot sights. It's kinda rare for them to be exactly where they oughta be so I tend to ignore them if trying to shoot precisely. They are there for low light condition and meant to be used at speed in defensive encounters. I usually just paint over them for range use.

Please report on the Rock Island more fully.

tipoc

Rittmeister
August 5, 2008, 09:32 PM
Interesting...

Well, it's on its way to Ivan at Armscor. I'll be a few days but we'll see what happens.

Rittmeister
August 14, 2008, 09:38 PM
Update:

The pistol arrived at Armscor on Monday, and I got a call today. Ray (not Ivan) tells me he took it to the range, and off a rest he was able to shoot good groups only about 1 inch below the bullseye at 25 yards. He asked me what other shooting I've done, and I told him (as mentioned above) that my other pistols are a 1911 pattern and a Browning Hi-Power. He went on to say that it's possible I need to spend some time getting used to the trigger pull on the new gun.

It's true nearly all the shooting I've ever done before this was with single-action handguns, and while of course this new pistol is double-action I did most of the firing in single action mode. Ray mentioned that the differences in the shape of the trigger, and in the different trigger reset, could cause my issue. He also said that he's been an IPSC competition shooter for nearly 20 years, though I have no reason to doubt what he's telling me.

Anyone want to speak to this? They said they'd send the pistol back to me directly; I guess I just have some practicing to do.

06Ankarali
September 5, 2008, 08:15 PM
hey,
I am a Turkish.
I want to say some thinks about our pistols.If you like cz 75 series,I thing you must look sarsılmaz K2 or KılınÁ 2000 and Canik 55 pistols.they are well pistols and cheaper then europa's pistol.but I thing Tisaş Zigana Sport is the best pistol of made from turkey.I thing you like it.please search it on google.if you write to google ''tisaş zigana sport'' you will see it.

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