[1858]

I'm starting out in CAS and need a "period" shotgun. I've looked into the CZ, Spartan, Stoeger and Norinco options and would much prefer a "made in America" shotgun suitable for CAS. I've been searching for Winchester 1897 shotguns since the Marlin shotguns from the late 19th century all seem to come with warning labels to the effect of DON'T SHOOT. Most of the 1897s that I've found have a 30" barrel so would it be sacrilegious, impractical or just plain dumb to chop the barrel down to 20" or thereabouts?

Thanks.

:)

[Geno]

This is a thread I started recently about just such "choppings":

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=375597

<<Shakes head and walks off into the sunset>>

[1858]

This is a thread I started recently about just such "choppings":

Doc, I read that thread when I did a search for "chopping shotguns". Just because something is old doesn't always make it valuable. Is it better that an old shotgun sits over the fireplace in its original form never to be used again or is it better to "butcher" it and use it for another 50 years? If an American company was making period style shotguns suitable for CAS in this country I'd order one in a heartbeat. The fact that I have to buy Russian, Turkish, Brazilian, or worse yet, Chinese reproductions is a disgrace. At this point I haven't decided what I'm going to do, but the elitist comments and numerous insults aimed at CAS members in the thread that you started are of no help to anyone. I suppose the thousands of cowboys that had their Remington 1858s converted to rimfire and then to centerfire at the end of the 19th century would bother you too. We've been modifying tools since the time of Homo Habilis more than 2,000,000 years ago and probably long before that.

Thanks for the help!! :rolleyes:

[Milkmaster]

At this point I haven't decided what I'm going to do, but the elitist comments and numerous insults aimed at CAS members in the thread that you started are of no help to anyone. I suppose the thousands of cowboys that had their Remington 1858s converted to rimfire and then to centerfire at the end of the 19th century would bother you too.

Whether you agree with Doc2005 or not is not cause for insults. Your original post asked a question. It did not specify that the answers had to be to your liking. I happen to agree with both of you in different ways, but I think I could write in such a way as not to be insulting to either. My opinion only.

[riverdog]

Would I buy a 30" Full choke to cut it down for CAS? No. Just a bad idea.

I received my Grandfather's 1897 back in 1980 having gone through an Uncle to my Father and then to me. For some reason my Uncle shortened the 30" barrel to 28" removing the choke; what I received was a 28" cylinder bore gun.

With collector value gone I had the barrel further shortened to 22". That was a mistake; instead I should have had one of the variable chokes available then added. Now I'd have the 28" barrel threaded for choke inserts. That said, at 22" it was and still is a good HD gun.

Buy a new 12 ga DB shotgun regardless of where it's made. Why ruin a classic pump shotgun that is no longer made when you can buy a new gun that's closer to period. 1897 may be okay with the CAS rules committee, but how many shotguns back than were pump action? Seems to me doubles and singles would have been much more common.

. . .Is it better that an old shotgun sits over the fireplace in its original form never to be used again or is it better to "butcher" it and use it for another 50 years? . . . Are you going to shoot CAS for 50 years? More likely it will shoot a few rounds at CAS and then get retired at half its original value. JMHO

[Geno]

1858 asked:

Most of the 1897s that I've found have a 30" barrel so would it be sacrilegious, impractical or just plain dumb to chop the barrel down to 20" or thereabouts?


My thought is, it's just a cryin' shame. See, I'm a traditionalist. I like to see 1934 Ford pickup trucks returned to stock condition, 1964.5 Mustangs restored to stock, and even old shotties left as they are (were). It's your money. It's your shotgun. It's your decision. But, when you ask the public...

Most of the 1897s that I've found have a 30" barrel so would it be sacrilegious, impractical or just plain dumb to chop the barrel down to 20" or thereabouts?

expect to hear an honest answer, even if from a traditionalist.

Respectfully,

Doc2005

[1858]

Your original post asked a question. It did not specify that the answers had to be to your liking.

Milkmaster, I don't have any preconceived ideas about this, so any rational, respectful response is appreciated. If you read the other thread, there was a lot of CAS bashing and a general tone of "this is how it is, end of discussion" which doesn't work for me at all.

riverdog, thanks ... that's very helpful. I'm going to see if it's possible to have a "temporary" CAS only barrel installed on an 1897 which may mean looking for a take-down version. Since I don't know much about the 1897 this may be a pipe dream. Despite the impression that I'm a hack-saw wielding Neandertal, I would start chopping under duress. If there's any way to have the best of both worlds them I'm all for it.


:)

[Jeff Mull]

I dont know the CAS rules so please bear with me.

I find myself wondering....what advantage is there to shortening the barrel of a '97?

The longer barrel cant slow you down that much moving the point of aim from target to target. So why cut them at all?

Jeff

[1858]

Doc, thanks for that ... I think we're on the same page now and I sincerely apologize to you if my previous post was offensive to you or others. I'm trying to do the right thing and that's why I posted my question.

Thanks.

:)

[1858]

The longer barrel cant slow you down that much moving the point of aim from target to target. So why cut them at all?

Jeff, my limited understanding is that CAS requires a coach gun which historically was a short, double barreled shotgun. They were short so that they were easy and quick to wield in confined spaces. In addition, coaches in those days offered a very bumpy ride so imagine trying to hit something 50 yards away with a "regular" shotgun. A shortened barrel would provide a larger spread which would make it easier to hit the intended target.

:)

[Dave McCracken]

There was an article on real life coach guns a few years back in one of the gun rags. Researching old pictures showed lots of shotguns used on Stagecoaches, most seemed to be long of barrel.

Wells Fargo did order Parker shotguns with 22" barrels, but they also used longer barreled weapons.

As to the OP's query on the barrel, I'd leave it alone and learn to use it as it is.

A 97 is way too much shotgun, though, to leave alone except for some CAS matches. Were it mine, it'd see some clays work and definitely get taken hunting.

[1858]

I took a look at the SASS handbook and here are the rules regarding the type of shotgun required.

"Any side-by-side or single shot shotgun typical of the period from approximately 1860 until 1899 without automatic ejectors, with or without external hammers, having single or double triggers is allowed. Lever action, tubular feed, exposed hammer shotguns of the period are allowed, whether original or replicas. The only slide action shotgun allowed is the Model 1897 Winchester shotgun, whether original or replica. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of shotgun and ammunition to be used. Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns). Please see the shooting categories for further information.

SHOTGUN GAUGES

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 20 gauge and no larger the 10 gauge.

• Slide action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 16 gauge and no larger than 12 gauge.

• Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action centerfire shotguns in .410 gauge are allowed within the Buckaroo Category only."


There's no mention of the maximum length of the barrel so it seems that a 30" barrel would be fine.

:)

[riverdog]

1858: There's no mention of the maximum length of the barrel so it seems that a 30" barrel would be fine. An option that can please all concerned. :cool:

[Catalina25]

1858 I'll bet that there was a fair amount of European hardware floating around towards the end of the 19th century, of all sorts. Using, say a Spartan at least your connected to an American company. And in today's global market who can say where all the various parts of a shotgun originate.
Though I can understand Doc's point of view, personally I'd rather is an old Mustang dragged out of the scrap yard and built into a street rod before meeting the crusher. Gun shops are full of guns looking for a second chance at being productive. And if that means alterations so be it. Giving an old gun a second chance is noble.
Awhile back I wanted an 870 as a go to gun to protect the home. I wasn't about to buy a plastic and matte gun. So i searched the the gun shops till I found an old Wingmaster for a couple off hundred dollars. Took the gun home and throughly clean it and the next day took it to the range for a round of trap, two actually because my friend Pete used it for the second round. And that night I took the pipe cutter to the barrel. But I did it all with reverence and respect. Be cool, be safe. TKM

[buck460XVR]

These guys are supposed to be the best when it comes to '97s...I've been doin' some research on the very same thing.



Old Western Gun Repair (http://www.dustybunch.org/repair.html)

[Catalina25]

a used one http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=105113726

[Wheeler44]

1858, please don't cut a '97. There are many that have been "modified" for cowboy action. I see them all of the time for sale. Usually $50.00-$100.00 less than and "unmodified" one. Look on the auction sites. A 30" '97 swings about as light as you can ask for, a result of near perfect engineering by the late John Moses Browning.

[publiuss]

Why don't you and riverdog trade barrels and everyone is happy.:D

[Two Cold Soakers]

A shortened barrel would provide a larger spread which would make it easier to hit the intended target.


No. This is not correct.

Barrel length has nothing to do with pattern density.

A full choked 18" bbl will place the same amount of shot in a circle as a full choked 30" bbl.

If you want a wider pattern, have the jug reamed, don't cut the barrels.

And in my experience a short barrel will wig wag all over an intended target more than a long barrel. A log bbl is easier to hold steady, especially on a moving target.

Furthermore, when shooting a shotgun, one has NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER "aiming" in a way that a wig-wagging barrel will effect impact. Swing and shoot, turkey and slugs aside.

Oh, and in reply to the OP...

Don't cut the barrels. If you do, your "American Iron" will have less value than the imports you deride.

[Phil DeGraves]

Nothing wrong with a long authentic shotgun in CAS. The targets are so easy to hit that the long barrels will not be a detriment.

[ATAShooter]

Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns).

Note this in the rules posted before. Wouldn't this not allow a sawed off '97 ? Wouldn't this convey that the shotgun would have to be in factory configuration ? I know coach guns came in a short barrel configuration from the factory, but the only short barrel '97 was a Trench gun. Just curious ...

[Sistema1927]

What the SASS rules are trying to avoid are the trench guns with bayonet lug and heat shield.

There are plenty of short '97s being used for CAS.

Why not a short Norinco '97 and keep the original Winchester intact?

[1858]

Winchester 1897 "Riot" gun (http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=22154)

I spoke to Jerry at Collector's Firearms this morning and he confirmed that this is a very nice shotgun. It's a factory original "riot" gun and the barrel is marked accordingly i.e. not chopped!! :) . I wanted a fixed frame version rather than a take-down one and this one looks to be in very good condition. The only piece that doesn't look original is the butt plate so that's something that I'll need to look into. I purchased the shotgun for $995 which based on the cost of other "original" 1897s I've seen on the internet in much worse condition is a fair price. I'm happy to give this one a good home and will take good care of it. With the shorter barrel it could also serve as a very good home-defense gun.

:)

[1858]

I should add that the serial # E7054XX indicates that it was manufactured sometime in 1921.

1921 700428
1922 715902

:)

[Dave McCracken]

Nice shotgun. Enjoy.....

[Catalina25]

really nice shotgun !!

[Wheeler44]

1858, the "E" in E series, means that there are two buttons located towards the bottom of the receiver about in the middle, front to back. If you push both buttons in at the same time it will "dump" the tube magazine (ie. empty the mag on the ground). That could be a helpful feature in cowboy shooting.

Congrats on a good find,

Wheeler44

[Two Cold Soakers]

Woooo Hoo.

A new old shotgun is always reason to celebrate!!!

[1858]

Woooo Hoo.

A new old shotgun is always reason to celebrate!!!

Yeah, I'm excited about it (despite probably paying too much). I'm going to order the AGI Winchester '97 DVD so I can learn how to take care of it properly ...

AGI DVD (http://www.americangunsmith.com/view.php?id=43)

ReloaderFred informed me that I'll need to have the chamber checked and will most likely need to have it reamed to work safely with modern ammunition. From what I can gather, it's a very strong design and should work well for years to come if maintained properly.

Wheeler 44, thanks for explaining the E designation ... I'm looking forward to trying out the quick magazine dump method and learning all about this piece of American history.

Catalina25 and Dave, thanks for the support!!

:)

[Mat, not doormat]

The primary advantage to a shorter barrelled shotgun isn't in pattern size or swing speed. It has to do with moving with the shotgun. When a stage calls for the shotgun to be shot through 3 different windows, the long barrel hampers getting in and out of said windows in a timely manner. It's a similar issue to getting a long pistol in and out of a holster. The other issue is that the full fixed choke, particularly in a gun that was designed before the use of plastic power pistons was common, tends to throw a pattern of about the same size as a rifle bullet. the old style full choke, combined with modern ammunition produces an effect similar to a super duper extra full. Since we're shooting in a hurry, at targets between 8 and 20 yards, rather than birds at fifty, such a pattern is sub optimal, to say the least.

Anyhow, I'd say that about 75-80% of '97 shooters use one that's been cut down, or a norinco that was built that way.

If avoiding the norks, and not having to desecrate a good original is your goal, I'd suggest buying one that's already been hacked, tubed, and tuned for SASS. they generally run about 5-600 bucks on the sass wire.

One thing about SASS, though is although it can be satisfying to shoot the originals, it's danged hard on the originals. Guns get shot fast, slammed around, slamfired, and occasionally dropped.

One of the saddest things I ever saw at a SASS match was a fellow who always prided himself on shooting originals, and doing so competitively. The stage required that pistols be staged on the table, rather than being holstered. When he slammed his second pistol down, it inadvertantly landed on top of his rifle. The end result was that the circa 1891 Mother of Pearl grip got busted off of the 1884 Colt SAA, which then exposed the steel of the grip frame. Said steel promptly gouged a four inch chunk in the barrel of his circa 1884 Model '73. Poor guy literally cried.

~~~Mat, aka Jerkline Jesse

[streakr]

I have 2 97's and a chinese copy. The first 97 (made 1916) is a Black diamond that I bought in the early 70's for duck and goose. It has a 32" full choke barrel and cost me 75 bucks. I would never touch that barrel due to the inherent value of that SG.

My other Winchester 97 is a 1910 made brush gun with a 24" barrel and choke tubes installed later. I would not cut it since it's just fine for CAS as well as trap/skeet.

The chinese 97 has a 20" barrel and is my main pump for CAS as it was cheap and stout.

Point is this: The 1897s are becoming scarcer but other than CAS there is little other use for them. My BD is a collectible yet cost me a pittance in 1972.

Unless there is collectible or sentimental value, do what you want to do!!!

streakr

[ScottsGT]

I'm sending my 20" chopped '97 here for hard chrome plating.

http://www.classicoldwestarms.com/

[Hoser]

If you are going to use it for games, you will benefit from a shorter and lighter shotgun.

I hacked mine off at 18.5 and had it threaded for choke tubes. I slopped a lot of fine lapping compound in there and worked the action a bunch to smooth it out. The trigger breaks very nice at about 3 lbs.

I would do it the exact same next time.

[Jeff Mull]

Mat,

In my experience choke has very little impact on pattern size at 20 yards, maybe 3" in the radius of the pattern. And that difference at the fringe of the pattern may help or not depending on how hard you need to hit the target to register a score. With a clay target a pellet or two is enough. What are you shooting at and is it hard to take don like a large steel silouette??

At 8 yards, I cant see the point to worrying about the choke, you either hit or miss.....

But then again I admit to prejudice. I think the effort that goes into choke selection is way overrated. I'm shooting skeet etc with a full choke most of the time and I dont think it costs me any targets. Most misses at flying targets are by feet not inches.

Jeff