Sending a gun to myself in another state?


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fallingblock
July 21, 2008, 01:31 AM
Hello THR.

I'll be returning to the U.S. again this fall and will need to get my carry
revolver from AZ to FL (I hold CCW permits for both states).

Is it legal to send the revolver to myself?

If so, what carriers offer this service?


Thanks.

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Jimmie
July 21, 2008, 01:37 AM
Yes, you can ship to yourself. For a handgun, you have to use UPS or FedEx.

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8

Or just travel with it.

M203Sniper
July 21, 2008, 01:42 AM
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b7

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. [B]Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. [B]A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
[B]
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

(B10) May a person who is relocating out of State move firearms with other household goods?

Yes. A person who lawfully possesses a firearm may transport or ship the firearm interstate when changing his or her State of residence.

Certain NFA firearms must have prior approval from the Bureau of ATF before they may be moved interstate. The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported. He or she should also [B]check State and local laws where relocating to ensure that movement of firearms into the new State does not violate any State law or local ordinance.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(4) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.28 and 478.31]


:)

myrockfight
July 21, 2008, 01:51 AM
Are you flying or driving, or what? Or are you relying on the good ole U.S. military to fly you there and you can't fly with your handgun as checked-in baggage?

If you are flying, I know there is a specific procedure to get it on the plane. You have to ship the ammo and the gun in seperate containers, etc. IIRC. Let someone else chime in who goes to competitions and what not. They do it all the time and would be able to tell you exactly what to do. Listen to someone who has done it frequently and recently. Then check to make sure that is right. I wouldn't want to screw the pooch on that one.

fallingblock
July 21, 2008, 03:32 AM
Thanks for all the info folks. Just what I was after M203Sniper!

I will be flying (ugh - used to be kinda fun before TSA)
and would prefer to avoid as many hassles relating to airports
as possible. Last time I was 'home' I got a body search
for the Great Lakes Air pony flight up to ShowLow from PHX.

The reason? I suspect it was because I'd declared 100 rounds
of factory .38 SPL ammo in checked baggage - it must have
been a slow day for TSA.:rolleyes:

Are FedEx and UPS generally amenable to the procedure?

jakemccoy
July 21, 2008, 06:41 AM
If I were flying, I'd rather send the gun through UPS or Fedex. Airlines and their pissed-off luggage handlers are not properly equipped to handle anything really. They consistently damage or lose my luggage. I don't even want to go on vacations with checked bags anymore because I'm tired of waiting a couple days for them to find my lost luggage. I can't imagine the stress of having a gun lost. At least UPS has tracking. I would strongly avoid checking a gun onto any commercial passenger plane.

brickeyee
July 21, 2008, 12:06 PM
While it is legal to ship a gun to yourself, good luck finding a common carrier that will allow it.
Most of their own policies that restrict what they will allow.

fallingblock
July 21, 2008, 11:32 PM
While it is legal to ship a gun to yourself, good luck finding a common carrier that will allow it.

:uhoh:

Has anyone had recent experience shipping from Phoenix?

Jakemccoy, I agree wholeheartedly with your advice.

As well as the body search incident last time at Sky Harbor,
on all subsequent U.S. flights my bag was searched.
I use inexpensive locks to monitor and provide TSA the
entertainment of cutting them.:D

There was a tremendous thunderstorm in progress when
I departed Atlanta and the bag was apparently opened
outside - the contents were soaked when I arrived at LAX.

WBFletcher
July 22, 2008, 01:08 AM
My advice to you is to have the gun and accessories packaged up *before* you come into the store.

Hell, come in to the store, pick up a white FedEx Express box, go out to your car, pack it up, come back in, and ship it off.

Just don't check the box that is marked "Dangerous Goods", and don't tell the desk jockey that you're shipping a firearm, and you'll be OK.

The chances of your package getting irretrievable lost are miniscule, so I personally wouldn't bother with shipping insurance, as that requires the shipper to visually verify what's in the box. If it's a gun, that raises red flags.

FCFC
July 22, 2008, 01:24 AM
My advice to you is to have the gun and accessories packaged up *before* you come into the store.

Hell, come in to the store, pick up a white FedEx Express box, go out to your car, pack it up, come back in, and ship it off.

Just don't check the box that is marked "Dangerous Goods", and don't tell the desk jockey that you're shipping a firearm, and you'll be OK.
Is that legal?

Gator
July 22, 2008, 02:05 AM
Nope.

478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or
contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to
any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or
licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is
being transported or shipped:

Unless you are sending it to one of the classes of FFL mentioned above you must notify the carrier.

freakshow10mm
July 22, 2008, 02:12 AM
Federal law states you must inform the shipper that the package contains a firearm, but it is illegal for them to mark it as such.

SASD209
July 22, 2008, 03:00 AM
For legal purposes, this happened to a friend of mine:


"I tried shipping my revolver from my hometown to my address in Wyoming that I was staying at (Note: I can CCW legally in both my home state and Wyoming). I worked out the timing so I would be there to accept it. USPS: no way. FEDEX: no way. UPS: no way. It was IMPOSSIBLE to get it done within their rules. Trust me, I printed everything out, went to and called at least a dozen shipping centers with these guys. They only ship to a FFL, and only within their rules. In the end, I printed out my Federal laws, alerted my attorney and family, and braved the trip to a NYC airport. I'm not going to say which airline, as this would give away the airport. I declared my unloaded and trigger-locked revolver with 25 rounds in the same lock box, and filled out the form. They looked at it and made sure it was unloaded, and away I went. No call to PAPD, no call for TSA, just "business as usual". I really credit the airline staff for being professional. It worked out that time, I'm not sure I'd tempt fate again."
Long story short: you can't ship it via common carrier in the way the OP wants to.

SASD209

freakshow10mm
July 22, 2008, 03:24 AM
USPS said no because your friend probably isn't an FFL. Only licensed firearm manufacturers or dealers can ship handguns via USPS.

jakemccoy
July 22, 2008, 03:52 AM
For legal purposes, this happened to a friend of mine:


"I tried shipping my revolver from my hometown to my address in Wyoming that I was staying at (Note: I can CCW legally in both my home state and Wyoming). I worked out the timing so I would be there to accept it. USPS: no way. FEDEX: no way. UPS: no way. It was IMPOSSIBLE to get it done within their rules. Trust me, I printed everything out, went to and called at least a dozen shipping centers with these guys. They only ship to a FFL, and only within their rules. In the end, I printed out my Federal laws, alerted my attorney and family, and braved the trip to a NYC airport. I'm not going to say which airline, as this would give away the airport. I declared my unloaded and trigger-locked revolver with 25 rounds in the same lock box, and filled out the form. They looked at it and made sure it was unloaded, and away I went. No call to PAPD, no call for TSA, just "business as usual". I really credit the airline staff for being professional. It worked out that time, I'm not sure I'd tempt fate again."
Long story short: you can't ship it via common carrier in the way the OP wants to.

SASD209

Your friend had another option of using an FFL dealer for a fee. I'd choose that option over checking a gun onto a plane. My personal experience with luggage getting lost just won't let me do it.

SASD209
July 22, 2008, 04:07 AM
Both correct.

He is not a FFL, and he didn't want to ship the revolver to a FFL for a fee of $25 to $100 which they wanted for the transfer. Plus, he didn't personally know any of the FFL's on the receiving end. My basic point was that the OP cannot legally do the transfer he wants to (non-FFL, shipping to self).

jakemccoy
July 22, 2008, 04:33 AM
My advice to you is to have the gun and accessories packaged up *before* you come into the store.

Hell, come in to the store, pick up a white FedEx Express box, go out to your car, pack it up, come back in, and ship it off.

Just don't check the box that is marked "Dangerous Goods", and don't tell the desk jockey that you're shipping a firearm, and you'll be OK.

The chances of your package getting irretrievable lost are miniscule, so I personally wouldn't bother with shipping insurance, as that requires the shipper to visually verify what's in the box. If it's a gun, that raises red flags.

Not only would this option be illegal, but also a scanner could easily identify a firearm in the package. It's not just a case of "concealed means concealed" wink wink. You have to deal with the stress of knowing you're breaking the law over a span of a few days. I would gladly pay FFL fees to avoid the stress, the likely jail time, the likely removal of my gun owner rights forever, the likely removal of my right to vote, etc.

jakemccoy
July 22, 2008, 04:48 AM
Here's another option to avoid an FFL fee. Check only the frame (or receiver) on the plane with you. The frame (or receiver) is the part considered a firearm by the BATFE.

(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Send all other parts through USPS, UPS, FedEx or whatever you want. The other parts are not considered a firearm under federal law. (Think about all the parts you can buy direct on the Internet; you can have everything mailed directly to you, except a completed frame or receiver.) You would not have to notify the carrier of what's in the package. Meanwhile, the dealings with the airline are more likely to be uneventful. If the airline loses your checked baggage containing the receiver, you're not quite as stressed.

In many guns, the lower receiver (trigger housing) is the part considered a firearm by the BATFE. For example, on an AR-15, this is the lower receiver and the only part you'd check on the plane with you using the proper airline procedures for checking a firearm:
http://i35.tinypic.com/2e4ff5c.jpg

fallingblock
July 22, 2008, 06:06 AM
Once again thanks for the info!:)


I declared my unloaded and trigger-locked revolver with 25 rounds in the same lock box, and filled out the form.

Was that legal?I have been told that ammo and firearm need to be in
separate containers.:confused:

FCFC
July 22, 2008, 09:05 AM
Long story short: you can't ship it via common carrier in the way the OP wants to.

My basic point was that the OP cannot legally do the transfer he wants to (non-FFL, shipping to self).
Sure he can. Looks like he either ran across some UPS/FedEx personnel who didn't know the regs and/or he didn't present the shipment properly.

Accurate story short: Others have accomplished (legally) what your friend "can't" do.

There's no question that UPS/FedEx personnel sometimes get all bureaucratic and finicky when faced with a firearm shipment from a non-licensee. But it usually can be worked out in an adult fashion.

BTW, technically, I dont think that shipping a handgun to yourself is a "transfer."

SaxonPig
July 22, 2008, 09:14 AM
It's legal, but all the carriers have a policy of only shipping to or from an FFL.

The fact is, trying to ship a gun without an FFL is nearly impossible without crossing the law or carrier policy.

BTW- Every single time I have tried to ship a gun the carrier has refused to accept the package if I told them it's a gun. The clerks never know the law or their own company rules.

With an FFL wanting $20-$30 to ship for you, and the carriers requiring overnight at $60+, the cost of shipping is ridiculous.

If you can get them to accept the package... which I never can.

The last time I tried, I was sending a rifle to myself from out of state. Took it to the PO and he asked "It's not a gun, is it?" and I knew I was screwed. He said only an FFL could mail a rifle (wrong) so I gave him my C&R license (which IS an FFL) and he looked at it for 5 minutes. Then went and had the manager look at it for 5 minutes. He came back and started reading it again. I just picked up the box and left.

Went to UPS where I did not tell them it was a gun. If that broke the law then good. Stupid laws should be ignored. Add it to the long list of laws I probably break everyday without even realizing it.

That's the problem when you have too many stupid laws.

FCFC
July 22, 2008, 09:25 AM
The last time I tried, I was sending a rifle to myself from out of state. Took it to the PO and he asked "It's not a gun, is it?" and I knew I was screwed. He said only an FFL could mail a rifle (wrong) so I gave him my C&R license (which IS an FFL) and he looked at it for 5 minutes. Then went and had the manager look at it for 5 minutes. He came back and started reading it again. I just picked up the box and left.
You mean you left just when you were about to correct the clerk's misconception and get to ship your rifle (as you are clearly allowed to do by law)? Why did you give up?

Went to UPS where I did not tell them it was a gun. If that broke the law then good. Stupid laws should be ignored. Add it to the long list of laws I probably break everyday without even realizing it.

That's the problem when you have too many stupid laws.

Interesting view.

How do you decide which ones are "stupid?"

highlander 5
July 22, 2008, 09:25 AM
A point here not made your FFL doesn't have to use UPS or Fedex to ship your pistol he can use the USPS and an overnite box that will be much cheaper than UPS/Fedex. next day to a local FFL and your good to go

FCFC
July 22, 2008, 09:59 AM
...can use the USPS and an overnite box that will be much cheaper than UPS/Fedex. next day to a local FFL and your good to go
Can an FFL legally ship it (via USPS or UPS/FedEx) directly to the handgun owner in the destination state?
:)

brickeyee
July 22, 2008, 11:01 AM
"Can an FFL legally ship it (via USPS or UPS/FedEx) directly to the handgun owner in the destination state?"

No for USPS, handguns are FFL to FFL ONLY.
Yes for UPS/Fedex.

bshepherd
July 22, 2008, 11:08 AM
Make sure you use the FedEx or UPS depot not a box and ship place. I have sent them to myself before. I have also sent them without declaring what is in the package, none of their business and I don't need any UPS nitwit trying to figure out their company policy. Machine parts it is.:neener:

gym
July 22, 2008, 11:36 AM
We went through this so many times, twice by me, when guys started quoting all kinds of laws and federal regs. The bottom line is that none of them will take the pistol, unless one side has an FFL. If you know a local Pac and Ship, and you have a relationship with them, they can advise you how to do this. I don't know if what they suggested to me was legal or not, as it was intrastate not interstate. But overnight Fedex, was the only way, 6 months ago. They are both sportsmen. My mom went to both Fedex and UsPs, last week, as I have a rifle that I have sitting at her house for 20 yrs, which is ok, because it just keeps appreciating in value, and I knew I would have sold it a thousand dollars ago. But they both told her that she had to send it thru an FFL. Also I had a flat screen dissappear 3 months ago, after spending $70 dollars to pac and send it in by "Fedex next day", I had it insurred for $350, and waited 6 weeks to get paid, after 3 weeks to verify it was lost. So you definatlly want to insure it. I have had 2 packages stolen in the last year, neither were weapons, but you better insure anything you ship. This economy is causing a lot of theft also.

FCFC
July 22, 2008, 12:00 PM
Make sure you use the FedEx or UPS depot not a box and ship place. I have sent them to myself before. I have also sent them without declaring what is in the package, none of their business and I don't need any UPS nitwit trying to figure out their company policy. Machine parts it is. :neener:


Ah, the ole machine parts gambit.

No wonder the antis don't trust a thing that gun rights guys say...


Gator:
478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common orcontract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped:

jakemccoy
July 22, 2008, 02:48 PM
We went through this so many times, twice by me, when guys started quoting all kinds of laws and federal regs. The bottom line is that none of them will take the pistol, unless one side has an FFL. If you know a local Pac and Ship, and you have a relationship with them, they can advise you how to do this. I don't know if what they suggested to me was legal or not, as it was intrastate not interstate. But overnight Fedex, was the only way, 6 months ago. They are both sportsmen. My mom went to both Fedex and UsPs, last week, as I have a rifle that I have sitting at her house for 20 yrs, which is ok, because it just keeps appreciating in value, and I knew I would have sold it a thousand dollars ago. But they both told her that she had to send it thru an FFL. Also I had a flat screen dissappear 3 months ago, after spending $70 dollars to pac and send it in by "Fedex next day", I had it insurred for $350, and waited 6 weeks to get paid, after 3 weeks to verify it was lost. So you definatlly want to insure it. I have had 2 packages stolen in the last year, neither were weapons, but you better insure anything you ship. This economy is causing a lot of theft also.

The law is the only thing worthy of attention in this type of thread. A reference to "jakemccoy" or "gym" from thehighroad.org has zero credibility in the real world.

Here are two of the most relevant laws or regulations:

18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)
27 CFR 478.31(a)

Both of these laws have been quoted at least once in this thread. I personally would not ship any firearm without at least reading once the relevant laws and regulations.

SaxonPig
July 22, 2008, 04:25 PM
FCFC- Common sense. You see, I am not hindered by a law school education so I still have some.

BTW- How long you been working for the Brady Campaign?

jakemccoy
July 22, 2008, 04:30 PM
I requested that this thread be moved to Legal.

Gator
July 22, 2008, 06:42 PM
BTW- How long you been working for the Brady Campaign?
:confused:

FCFC has said nothing in this thread that makes me think he works for the Brady Campaign.

fallingblock
July 23, 2008, 12:22 AM
"Can an FFL legally ship it (via USPS or UPS/FedEx) directly to the handgun owner in the destination state?"

No for USPS, handguns are FFL to FFL ONLY.
Yes for UPS/Fedex.

Does that mean I only require the FFL at one end of the line?:confused:


The law is the only thing worthy of attention in this type of thread. A reference to "jakemccoy" or "gym" from thehighroad.org has zero credibility in the real world.

Here are two of the most relevant laws or regulations:

18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)
27 CFR 478.31(a)

Both of these laws have been quoted at least once in this thread. I personally would not ship any firearm without at least reading once the relevant laws and regulations.

No arguments there jakemccoy....It's the seeming inconsistency of
application of these laws that has me wishing I had time to drive
instead of fly.:banghead:

ROB ROY
July 23, 2008, 12:58 AM
Are you flying or driving from AZ. TO FL.? If your flying you can put your handgun in your checked luggage. If your driving just put it in the trunk. Other than that you can only mail a rifle for hunting to your self. If you have to have it mailed you will have to have one dealer mail it to another dealer.

freakshow10mm
July 23, 2008, 01:04 AM
Does that mean I only require the FFL at one end of the line?
An FFL can ship to an individual using a contract carrier. USPS handgun mailing is only for FFLs to FFLs.

Example: You send your gun to Yost Customs for some work. They can UPS/FedEx it to you directly, but cannot USPS it unless you have an FFL.

fallingblock
July 23, 2008, 01:51 AM
who can then send the gun via common carrier to me in Florida?

That seems straightforward enough. :)

For the Arizona folks:
Is Southwest Airlines "gun friendly" flying out of Phoenix?

SASD209
July 23, 2008, 02:03 AM
FCFC:

In response to your post#20, I'd like to see what proof you can produce to back up your statement. I say that the OP cannot legally accomplish sending his revolver between states to himself via FedEX or UPS, not using a FFL at either end. If I'm wrong, so be it. Wouldn't be the first time.

fallingblock:

It's absolutely legal and acceptable to pack the ammo with the firearm:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm



SASD209

fallingblock
July 23, 2008, 02:57 AM
You may carry the ammunition in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as you pack it as described above.


That simplifies the ammo transport.
The airline employee I asked obviously didn't know the rules.:scrutiny:

Jimmie
July 23, 2008, 03:55 AM
Airlines can have more restrictive rules than TSA. American, for example, requires ammo to be in "original packaging" even though TSA says they can be in any packaging, including magazines. I had to go borrow a factory box from my neighbor last time I flew to put my ammo in.

SASD209
July 23, 2008, 04:13 AM
Oh, good point, I forget to mention that: Call your airline and check their regs. Some (can't remember which) won't allow firearms at all and as Jimmie said, some have different regs than TSA. :)

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