[raz-0]

Or maybe it's jsut the article writer. but I'm not seeing how a lighter gun with the same or heftier ammo will recoil less. Or how polygonal rifling doesn't leave marks on bullets.

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/story/7303585p-8248133c.html

L.A. police to get slicker, lighter guns
The Associated Press
Last Updated 1:24 p.m. PDT Wednesday, August 27, 2003
LOS ANGELES (AP) - Police here will soon be able to carry a lighter and slicker weapon - the Glock pistol.

The Board of Police Commissioners on Tuesday approved the new weapons, which are already used in some specialized divisions.

"Quite frankly, it's just a much better weapon," than the standard-issue Beretta 9 mm, said Chief William Bratton during a hearing before the five-member civilian panel that oversees department policy.

About 70 percent of U.S. law enforcement agencies use Glocks, including the FBI and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.

Bratton, who headed the New York Police Department when it switched to Glocks in the 1990s, said the Beretta gun gave him blisters during his academy training in Los Angeles.

The $500 Glock has less recoil than guns currently used by officers. It also has a larger magazine capacity, a simpler construction and a more ergonomic design that allows officers with small hands to easily grip the gun, according to the Los Angeles Police Department.

The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition.

The pistols are easier to use, but it's more difficult to trace the bullets fired from Glocks than other guns. Some departments have used a modified barrel in an effort to mark the bullets, but LAPD officials say that system is still untested.

[cool45auto]

"Quite frankly, it's just a much better weapon," than the standard-issue Beretta 9 mm, :rolleyes:

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Since recoil is largely perception, many people feel that the flexible Glock frame distributes the total recoil pulse of a longer period, seemingly decreasing it for the shooter.

So, for many people, he's right.

[Hoop]

Isn't the lesser recoil due to the lower bore axis of the Glock?

[WonderNine]

Glock: "The new pistol of the coming police state."

:barf:

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Lower bore axis decreases muzzle flip, which is related, but different than recoil.

[Archie]

"The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition."

Can I just sort of mix them all in the magazine? Will it sort it out if I put it in backwards, too?

[jercamp45]

Well, i think I'd rather carry a Glock(larger caliber please) than a beretta! It is abit easier to conceal off duty! And maybe they'll authorized the Baby's for back up/off duty?
I liked that it will take 9, 40 and .45 calber bullets...why that is a VERY versatile pistol!!
Ya, I know...different models......but it did not sound that way!
Bullets harder to trace? Less recoil? Well.......
70% of law enforcement? I know it is ALOT!! Kinda the M10 M&P of semi autos. Hopefully they let 40's and 45's in the door!!!!!
G21 on duty, G30 Off, G36 for deep cover? Ohhhhhh!!
Tactical Tupperware Strikes Again!
Jercamp45

[clubsoda22]

dunno, the last person i pulled a 9mm from i knew it was a glock due to the polygonal rifling.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

Clubsoda,

The point they were trying to get across was WHICH G19 the bullet came from. That is apparently a bit of a ballistic challenge.

[Nightcrawler]

more ergonomic design that allows officers with small hands to easily grip the gun,

:rolleyes:

BWHAHAHAHAHA....that's good for a giggle...

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

NC,

Have you actually held a G17 and a Beretta 92? The Glock isn't dainty, but it's smaller and has a shorter trigger reach than the 92 by far.

[10-Ring]

The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition.

I want one! Which one is it? :scrutiny:

[bountyhunter]

This is America and people have a constitutional right to have their heads up their rears........

[bountyhunter]

The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition.

But it takes a real man to get that .45 round to chamber up in the 9mm barrel.

[Nightcrawler]

Have you actually held a G17 and a Beretta 92? The Glock isn't dainty, but it's smaller and has a shorter trigger reach than the 92 by far.

I've held both. The Glock does have a shorter trigger reach, but then, the Beretta isn't designed for square hands. The Glock, to my hand, is one of the least ergonomic pistols out there.

[Target Shooter]

I'm no expert but what the writer was refering to was Several models that have been approved for use. IE: 19, 22, And 21But it takes a real man to get that .45 round to chamber up in the 9mm barrel.

[SnWnMe]

"The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition."

These LAPD Glocks will drive gun writers who thrive on the 9v40v45 debate to the unemployment line! Now you can have ALL three! Imagine the possibilities: You carry the 45 clips off duty because your dept load is 40. For cheap practice you switch to 9s. Not to mention: You carry AP +P+ 9s for shooting at vehicles, tracer 40s for night engagements and JHP 45s for regular use... all on the same duty belt!

"but it's more difficult to trace the bullets fired from Glocks than other guns. Some departments have used a modified barrel in an effort to mark the bullets, but LAPD officials say that system is still untested."

More misinformation drivel shoveled to non shooters.

This reminds me of the Glock specs recited by Bruce Willis in DH2.

[Andrew Wyatt]

where are all these clip fed handguns coming from? do they go *PLING* ?

[1911Tuner]

The lessened recoil is real, and it's due to the polygonal barrel, or
more correctly, due to the absence of cut rifling. I first noticed this
after firing an H&K 91 rifle back to back with its selective-fire
twin, the G-3, with the same ammunition lot. The G-3, with its
polygonal bore kicked noticeably less, and taking the experiment
a step further, there was less torquing when the rifle was fired
loosely held, off shoulder. Chronograph results showed higher
velocities in the G-3 also, but couldn't be taken as representative
due to the fact that rarely do two rifles produce the same velocities
even if they are identical. The difference was great enough to
be able to state that the polygonal bore would likely produce
higher velocities than a conventionally rifled bore with all else
theoretically equal.

Now...I wonder how the PD is altering the bores to produce a
ballistic fingerprint...:confused:

Cheers!
Tuner

[Morgan]

dunno, the last person i pulled a 9mm from i knew it was a glock due to the polygonal rifling...

Or it could have been an HK or Kahr...

[Lofland]

The Beretta gave him blisters during training? What's up with that? That certainly doesn't happen with most Beretta users. It would be nice if this switch led to a glut of LAPD police trade-in Berettas coming on the market, but I don't know if LA will allow that.

[Lofland]

Also, the article doesn't mention if they had any comparison test with the Beretta 92 Vertec, which was designed specifically to accomodate smaller hands. For normal-to-large size hands, I find the rounder, larger grip of the standard 92 FS much more comfortable than the Glock grip.

[berettaman]

("Quite frankly, it's just a much better weapon," than the standard-issue Beretta 9 mm, said Chief William Bratton during a hearing before the five-member civilian panel that oversees department policy.)

I thought they used the 40 S&W M96?

[Quartus]

The lessened recoil is real,

The lessened recoil is perceived. Physics is physics. Less weight to absorb the energy, more energy WILL be absorbed by the shooter*. But ergonomics and other factors can change the DURATION of the recoil impulse, and therefore change the PERCEPTION of recoil.

And that counts for a lot.



*Leaving muzzle brakes out of it for the moment, since most police sidearms do not have them.

[denfoote]

Drivel and all, this article can be summed up in the phrase:
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!!!" :D

[Flashpoint]

As far as the felt recoil thing I was suprised at how the G17 felt when I shot it next to my Sig p239. I felt no dissernable difference between the Glock and the Sig, I just wish I still had my Ruger P89 to compair with it. One the other hand, on the same day another friend had brought a S&W 6906 (9mm) and the recoil on that thing felt like or worse than that of my Steyr M40. I really don't understand how the same round can be THAT different in different guns.

[George Hill]

"PERCEPTION of recoil"
That's also called "Felt Recoil" and is different from person to person.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

1911tuner,

Not sure where you're coming from. G3s have the same standard rifling that most 91s have. A few HK rifles, like sniper varients and the SR9 series have polygonal bores, but not the standard G3. Ask around.

Anyway, as a theory your polygonal bore idea is also flawed. A 1 in 12 land and groove bore does the exact same thing to the bullet as a 1 in 12 polygonal bore. The muzzle velocities will be about the same and the bullets will be spinning just as fast. Therefore the bullet and gun interacted in virtually the same way in both cases.

There is just no way that two bores with the same load, producing the same results are going to have completely different recoil signatures.

[1911Tuner]

I understand felt recoil...or percieved recoil. Mostly a matter of
difference in grip angle or stock design. i.e. length of pull, drop at the
comb, etc. The weight of the gun, and even barrel length can make a difference, especially when handguns are compared....but those two
rifles were identical, save for the method of inducing bullet spin and
the rock and roll option on the G-3.

We all noticed the difference, and we played with it to see if we
could determine why there was a difference. Cradling the rifles
loosely off shoulder with several observers watching the same shooter
fire both back to back caused us all to agree that the rifle was not
only moving a shorter distance, but the muzzle was rising far less
on the rifle with the pologonal bore. The only thing that we couldn't
do was to find a way to measure the recoil in foot pounds between
the two rifles, and the buyer was due to take transfer on the rifle
the next day, so we never got to take the experiment further.

Whether this was a direct function of less resistance to the bullet passing, or because of the higher velocities/shorter bullet dwell time, I haven't
a clue. Maybe a ballistician can explain it better.

Edited: SPE...This G-3 had a polygonal bore. Don't know where the
Class 3 dealer got it.

Anybody?

Tuner

[HankB]

These LAPD Glocks . . . Imagine the possibilities: You carry the 45 clips off duty because your dept load is 40. For cheap practice you switch to 9s. . . Uh oh . . . from what I've seen, unless instructed otherwise, some officers may actually try this. (Some LEO firearms instructors I've spoken to have stories about new recruits that make me shudder.)

[Quartus]

If you plot the recoil on a graph, you'll see that there's a sharp spike, then it tapers off. If you take the same amount of energy and distribute it over a longer period of time, the spike will be shorter and fatter. That SHORTER part translates into less "snap" in the recoil, which certainly affects the shooter differently.

For example, shoot a .45 Colt with a black powder load, and shoot the same gun with the same bullet using a modern, quick burning powder. It's a different animal. But even if you carefully work up the loads to get them pushing the same bullet weight at the same speed, the recoil will feel very different.

I don't know if a polygonal bore changes the recoil curve, but I wouldn't say it's impossible.

[Island Beretta]

I hope that during its tenure with the LAPD, the Berettas did not in any way contribute to the loss of life or injury to an officer given the POS that they are.. :rolleyes:

Thanks Glock for saving the day. I don't know how we survived without you all these years..you are indeed Perfection. :rolleyes: :scrutiny:

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

1911Tuner,

There are four different buffers that can be installed in a G3/HK91. The rifle probably had one of the better ones. They make a huge, noticeable difference.

Bores do not. Ask any of the thousands of people who have substituted aftermarket barrels for their Glocks or HKs.




Everybody, this is a really sorry occasion for Glock bashing. We all know that Glocks have smaller grips than the 92, we all know that the same basic Glock is offered in many calibers, and we all have heard that polymer frame flex eats a little recoil. That's all the guy in the article was trying to get across. Alot of people don't care for the big Beretta, quality gun or not. This is really not a big deal.

[Skunkabilly]

About 70 percent of U.S. law enforcement agencies use Glocks, including the FBI and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.

So does Ice Cube, Tupac and 50 Cent! Yeah!

Bratton, who headed the New York Police Department when it switched to Glocks in the 1990s, said the Beretta gun gave him blisters during his academy training in Los Angeles.

Great. So LA is being cleaned up by a guy whose duty gun gave him blisters? Ok, my hands are so girly, that I get splinters from hair fibers that get stuck in my hand. Seriously. But my Beretta does NOT give me splinters. And my hands are probably the girliest out of everyone here outside of Runt.

[rock jock]

They forget to mention .357sig and the daddy of them all - the 10 mm.

Really, that was such a stupid statement to make. He should have said that most officers prefer the Glock and that is why it is better for them.

[Nightcrawler]

said the Beretta gun gave him blisters during his academy training in Los Angeles

If that big, soft-shooting 9mm gave him blisters, 'wait until he fires off a typical defensive .40 load in an autoloader that's lighter and has "corners" on the grip.

But I don't WANT to carry a Beretta! It gives me BLISTERS!

:rolleyes:

[Mastrogiacomo]

I've handled both the Glock 19 and Beretta 92FS -- as a female shooter, I can't figure why it'd be too big for man, but to each his own. I don't notice the recoil with the Beretta which is why I bought three -- and this from a lady that sold her S&W 442 because of the bite. :rolleyes: I don't have to conceal my duty gun so it's not an issue. If I were carrying concealed -- I'd switch to a Beretta type M, a 686 snubbie or a Glock 26....all are good guns, it's just a matter of preference in my book.

[WonderNine]

Thank god for Browning Hi-Powers!!! :D :D :D

Sorry, just had to throw that in there.

And REAL Italian Beretta 92's are outstanding pistols in their own right.

Life is too short to shoot plastic guns.

[Amish]

"Quite frankly, it's just a much better weapon," than the standard-issue Beretta 9 mm, said Chief William Bratton during a hearing before the five-member civilian panel that oversees department policy.

Bratton, who headed the New York Police Department when it switched to Glocks in the 1990s, said the Beretta gun gave him blisters during his academy training in Los Angeles.

The $500 Glock has less recoil than guns currently used by officers. It also has a larger magazine capacity, a simpler construction and a more ergonomic design that allows officers with small hands to easily grip the gun, according to the Los Angeles Police Department.

The guns can take 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber ammunition."

Damn, I bet the Pentagon would like to hear the Chief's findings on why a Glock is a much beter weapon than the M9. Blisters from a beretta? What was he doing trying to clean the barrel with his fingers? A lighter weight gun will not have less recoil than a heavier gun firing the same round. Polymer frames flexes a tiny amount but so do steel and aluminum alloy. I guess this new chief never heard about the Beretta 96. Smells like the has been bought out by Gaston Glock. Either that or he really is that stupid.

What this article fails to mention is that the Glock 22 has been approved for officers to buy on their own. The Beretta 92 will still be the standard issue. The Chief is just making excuses to allow officers to carry the .40 round instead of the 9mm. Hate the caliber, not the gun Chief.

[1911Tuner]

SP Expert reports:

There are four different buffers that can be installed in a G3/HK91. The rifle probably had one of the better ones. They make a huge, noticeable difference.

Now, there's a plausible explanation...and one that I didn't realize,
not being much up on the 91/G-3 weapon systems. Never really
cared for'em. Good, reliable rifles, no doubt...but they just don't
feel right to me. Kinda like shoulderin' an axle with a brake drum
on the end. Plus, that hump busts me in the cheek. I guess
I'm just bolt-rifle spoiled...*sigh*

Thanks for the info Expert. Now all I gotta do is look up the
guys who were scratchin' their heads that day and let'em know.
Gonna be tough, seein' as how it all happened in 1983...

Cheers!
Tuner

[jacketch]

It also has a larger magazine capacity, a simpler construction and a more ergonomic design that allows officers with small hands to easily grip the gun.

Wondernine is right, they needed BHP's

p.s. he didn't where on his anatomy or how he got the blisters:D

[JDSlack]

As for the blisters...he probably grabbed the barrel after shooting the qual course.:p

The comment on the poly rifling has some truth to it. If LAPD buys a bulk lot of Glocks, there is very little difference in the bores, since they are machined one right after the other. This maks it difficult to determine which gun fired the projectile. This really becomes an issue when multiple officers fire their weapons in the same incident, and you need to find out who hit the BG (or innocent bystander). In fact, on one Department I am aware of, it was the street officers policy (not the Department's) that "...if one shoots everyone shoots". Making it harder to determine who did hit the BG...which is good (if you have a SAO/DA that hates cops) or bad, if you an an innocent bystander (or the surviving spouse of one).

Oh, and by the by, I have fired both, and like 'em both OK, but don't own either. I like Colt semi-autos (and Hi-powers) and S&W revolvers.

[jnb01]

Maybe the blisters occured from pulling that loooong Beretta DA trigger one too many times, as I don't suppose the LAPD can afford to send off all of their pistols to LTT for his superb trigger job. ;)

As far as the caliber, the LAPD already authorizes the .45acp. However, they have had very good success with the 9mm as they issue effective ammunition for it, the 147gr Ranger RA9T loading.

As has already been mentioned, the Beretta is supposed to remain standard issue, with Glock's being approved in 9mm, .40, .45acp......

Like percieved recoil, how an individual shoots a particular weapon is also subjective and personal, what one likes, another won't. I for one, shoot Glocks better than Beretta's do to the Glocks lower bore axis, consistent trigger pull, shorter trigger reach, shorter trigger reset ect.......

Recoil with the larger caliber will be more. However, in my experience it will also depend on the load used, not just the platform. It's been said they will issue the 180gr Ranger loading, which to me, is quite manageable in a Glock 23 for instance, as it has less snap and blast than the hotter 155gr and 165gr full power .40SW loads. IMO, the 180gr loads are the "easiest" shooting loads in the caliber, with the exception of ammunition that has been downloaded.

Best, jnb01

[Bren]

Out of those two choices,, I would pick the Glock also. Bren

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

I wonder if this thread would be equally inane if some department made a statement as to why they were switching from Glock to Beretta?



Almost definitely.

[Nightcrawler]

Oh, SPE, I can just see that. The Glock Perfection crowd would have kittens.

It'd be fun to watch, it really would...

:evil:

[Ian11]

This is exactly why I don't participate much in this forum lately as well as GlockTalk and 1911Forum. The same rehashing of negativity and overstatements that instigate these kinds of arguments.

I'm a Glock fan as well as a SIG fan, 1911 fan, S&W revolver fan, and pretty much all decent quality guns out there. Arguments like these are par for the course I understand that; and sometimes there's good information. And I'll admit I've been pulled into these "constest of wills" in the past.
I guess its always been like this but there are other forums that aren't as bad. I've realized everyone's been basically talking to themselves (me included) in order to convince themselves or build up arguments for their own brand loyalties.

I'm sure there are lurkers out there who see threads like this, shake their heads, and don't see the point in sharing opinions/information with people who have such entrenched opinions :uhoh:

I have my favorites but there's always some joker that tells me I should switch to whatever they're shooting. Do they think I'm gonna say "Yeah, you're right my gun does suck. *** was I thinking?":rolleyes:

[jc2]

Considering the individual (Bratton) who pushed the Glock for optional carry (at the officer's expense), it will probably have a twenty pound trigger pull and be unreliable (remember NYPD's Phase 3 malfunctions) by the time he gets finished with it.

[Tecolote]

Is the Glock option or the new standard issue? I keep reading conflicting reports.

Not to mix up apples and oranges I'll lmite my 2 cents to the 92FS and Glock 17.:D I think that both the 92FS and Glock 17 are excellent defense tools.

The Glock 17 is a lot lighter. This could be a big deal after you've been hauling a San Brown full of gear for more than 10 hours.

The Glock 17 has a much lower bore axis and a polymer frame that help reduce perceived recoil.

The Glock 17 requires a lot less care. Anyone remember the show on the Discovery Channel about the LAPD? Remember the episode where one officer's 92FS jams because it was never cleaned? I've seen two 92FS that jammed because they weren't probably cleaned and lubed. The 92FS is a fantastic defense tool but compared to a Glock it needs to be cleaned and lubed more often. This is important for people that are too lazy or don't care about keeping their sidearm clean.

The Glock 17 will be cheaper than the 92FS. The article quotes the price of $500 but that's way off base. Even for individual officer purchases the price is lower because no excise tax is based. I wouldn't be surprised if Glock offered to buy back the current Berettas and cut LAPD a huge deal.

The Glock 17 has a much shorter trigger reach. It accomodates a greater variety of hand sizes.

The Glock 17 Safe-Action means a consistent pull unlike the 92FS DA/SA. Again, not a big deal for those willing to learn the transition but that takes more time.

NYPD went with the "New York" heavier trigger after NYSP did. The powers that be in NYC insisted on it. It wasn't Bratton's choice to make. Everyone has their own explanation for the NYPD Phase 3 Malfunctions. Glock blames the ammo, NYPD blames Glock, Glock fans blame NYPD, but no one has an explanation yet.

I don't know about blisters, but try firing 100 rounds DA only from a bone stock 92FS. It made my index finger sore!

[Mastrogiacomo]

No matter what the gun, all firearms should be cleaned and lubed after shooting. I do this regardless of whether it looks like it's needed or not because to skip caring for your investment properly is just being lazy. Again, I personally love the Glock and the Beretta -- both are great guns and I don't have a problem with either. I think it's just lame though the excuses people invent simply because they prefer one over the other....:rolleyes:

[Old Fuff]

Big city new reporters are a blast. This one, whose stupidity is only exceeded by ignorance, should be covering Mommy Marches. Obviously most of them have no idea which end the bullet comes out of, let alone what all those complicated numbers like “9” or “40” or “45” mean.

But then, most of they’re readers aren’t any more knowledgeable. It’s a sad commentary on our times.

[Tecolote]

How is it lame if it's a fact? Of course everyone should clean their sidearm after use but the fact is that not everyone does. Glocks will function longer with less care than will other designs. Because less and less LEOs have any interest in firearms Glock's ability to function dirty is a plus for people making the decisions to purchase Glocks for large agencies.

[Quartus]

a plus for people making the decisions to purchase Glocks for large agencies.


Oh, that folks who debate these issues would pay attention to this sentence!


For a public agency, be it civilian (local cops, FBI, whatever) or military, the decision must take into account a lot of things OTHER THAN which is the best fighting tool.

Frankly, they DO have to account for the idiot factor. AND they have to take PR into account. So what is the best decision FOR THEM may be very different from what is the best decision for you or me.



And that's even true when there are NO politics involved!

[joyadecarolina]

i wonder if that means mackie is gonna give up the 4506?

[.45Ruger]

If GLOCK's do beocme the standard sidearm what would they do with the old ones. SOme how I can't see the LAPD selling their old guns to the public.

[4v50 Gary]

Real advantage - for officers with smaller hands, the Glock 17 or 19 is easier to manage. Shooting scores may increase.

[varoadking]

Glock would "buy" them...

[Boats]

Actually Glocks are the perfect pistols for people who don't know much about, and don't care for their firearms.

They are the NOOB weapon of choice.:D

[Ian11]

And Glocks are also a popular choice among competition shooters and top law enforcement agencies/SWAT units across this country as well. Someone should tell them they're shooting the NOOB weapon of choice :uhoh:

Right, like field stripping a 1911 is such an advanced skill :rolleyes: